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Al Gore's Documentary Convinces Leading Skeptic


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#31 stephen

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Posted 28 June 2006 - 08:31 PM

My greatest fear with Global Warming is this:

People don't understand the consequences global-warming based legislation will have on industry.

A lot of people I talk with say "The government(s) needs to cut CO2 / CH4 / X emissions. Legislate! Regulate! Tax!" They think the consequences are three-fold:

1. SUV-driving soccer moms will have to cut down on their rampage.
2. Exxon shareholders will see a dip in their stock value.
3. People will start buying hybrid vehicles.

If those were the only consequences, I'd be right behind them advocating goverment intervention! (Along with shorting Exxon stock. [lol] ) That's not the whole picture, however. You need to realize:

1. Raw materials costs go up.
2. Logistics costs go up.
3. Manufacturing costs go up.

These additional costs stifle innovation in the marketplace. I work for a big chemicals / plastics company... we'd slash R&D given more price pressure. And it wouldn't just be us... the costs would cascade down value chain. What does this mean? Less innovation on the materials front. Fewer biotech startups. Slower Nanotech development. Ultimately... delayed immortality.

There's a more immediate "threat to life" here than climate crisis.

#32 mikelorrey

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 02:57 AM

The AP is now reporting that scientists are now confirming that all of the science portrayed in Al Gore's movie is indeed accurate. Here is the link to the story.


Independent media is now reporting that the AP got all their references wrong...

#33 mikelorrey

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 02:59 AM

Also]here is a link to an article[/URL] on how to "geoengineer" away some of the global warming problems, and ultimately how feasible these types of projects are. Pretty interesting read.


There is a flaw in the assumptions of the paper in the beginning when the accept as a given the most extreme IPCC projections of warming. The trend is that IPCC projections tend to go down with every new report.

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#34 Live Forever

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 03:11 AM

mikelorrey, please provide references for your claims. Its not that I do not believe you, but anyone could claim anything. Which "independent media" (btw, AP is an independent media, is it not?) is reporting the AP got their references wrong? ...and what is wrong with the article on how to engineer away global warming? What projections are you talking about? It is talking about how to fix the problem through technological means, and was meant to promote discussion on that topic.

#35 mikelorrey

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 03:11 AM

mikelorrey said:

As such, it is the contention of anthropogenic warming that is the whole issue, but the GW nutters are claiming *everything* is caused by "global warming" and asserting that all global warming is by definition anthropogenic. They are liars and con artists, and they are doing it for political purpose: to justify massive carbon taxes in the US that will NOT be used to reduce CO2 emissions, but will be used to fund European style welfare nannystatism.


That world are you guys planning on living on forever if it is ruined for humans? I am sure dumping millions of years of sequestered carbon into the carbon cycle in just a few hundred years is a bad thing. Just incase why not stop? Tell me do you take any supplements? Why? They haven't been proven to work. It is just in case, right? Why take the risk if we don't need to. We can live without burning fossil fuels, lets do it.


I live on a caveman derived diet. I hunt, I fish. Average age at death for my three dead grandparents is 78, while the fourth is currently 96 and just starting to slow down. If she kicked off when her father died, at 99, my grandmonsters avg life expectancy would be just short of 87. Given the one who died first, at 69, smoked much of his life and lived in a big city for all of it, and I don't smoke, or live in the city, my average life expectancy should be just short of 90. I'm currently 38, so I've got an average of 52 years left before I take the deep freeze. We've therefore got til 2058 to achieve practical immortality to save my ass as it is.

Now, as for the world, I'm not planning on ruining the world. I do, however, have knowledge that the markets solve all ills, provided governments get out of the way and stop shielding corporations from their torts. The market is far more likely to deliver a world free of fossil fuel burning than any government program.

#36 mikelorrey

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 03:25 AM

mikelorrey, please provide references for your claims. Its not that I do not believe you, but anyone could claim anything. Which "independent media" (btw, AP is an independent media, is it not?) is reporting the AP got their references wrong? ...and what is wrong with the article on how to engineer away global warming? What projections are you talking about? It is talking about how to fix the problem through technological means, and was meant to promote discussion on that topic.


Picked this up at fark.com:
http://newsbusters.org/node/6138

Namely, AP interviewed 100 climate scientists, and ONLY 19 gave Gore five stars for accuracy. This means that 81 scientists, a supermajority, did not find Gore to be accurate.

The geoengineering article claims for the amount of warming expected before 2100 are excessive. The most recent IPCC report (whose projections I find overblown and hyperbolic) has greatly tamed its prior projections. Now expecting between 0.4 to 2.0 C at most, with the most pessimistic projections based on unrealistic scenarios positing warming of 4-6 C.

Particularly given the new solar observations predicting cooling of 1.5-2.0 C by 2022 from an extended solar minimum, warming should be the least of our worries for several decades. The coming cooling period will release enough heat from Earth in one solar cycle that we won't reach todays temp levels again until mid century at least.

In particular to Gore's innaccuracies, was his dependence on the now discredited "hockey stick" of Michael Mann. Mann has been thoroughly debunked by Canadian researchers. The blog below makes a habit of debunking the scientifically fraudulent claims of Mann and his followers:

http://www.climateaudit.org/

#37 Live Forever

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 03:39 AM

Picked this up at fark.com:
http://newsbusters.org/node/6138

Namely, AP interviewed 100 climate scientists, and ONLY 19 gave Gore five stars for accuracy. This means that 81 scientists, a supermajority, did not find Gore to be accurate.

Well, the title of the site is "NewsBusters: Exposing and Combating Liberal Media Bias", so they obviously have an agenda. I would not call them "independent media" by any stretch of the imagination. Also, 81 did not respond, but that does not mean they disagree with Gore, only that they did not respond.

The geoengineering article claims for the amount of warming expected before 2100 are excessive. The most recent IPCC report (whose projections I find overblown and hyperbolic) has greatly tamed its prior projections. Now expecting between 0.4 to 2.0 C at most, with the most pessimistic projections based on unrealistic scenarios positing warming of 4-6 C.

Particularly given the new solar observations predicting cooling of 1.5-2.0 C by 2022 from an extended solar minimum, warming should be the least of our worries for several decades. The coming cooling period will release enough heat from Earth in one solar cycle that we won't reach todays temp levels again until mid century at least.

In particular to Gore's innaccuracies, was his dependence on the now discredited "hockey stick" of Michael Mann. Mann has been thoroughly debunked by Canadian researchers. The blog below makes a habit of debunking the scientifically fraudulent claims of Mann and his followers:

http://www.climateaudit.org/

Can you link to the IPCC projections that you are talking about? I have no particular allegiance to Al Gore, in fact overall I would tend not to agree with the man, but on this topic of global warming, it seems as if there is an overwhealming amount of evidence that it is happening. For instance, this article (which I have seen a number of other places) saying that we are the warmest we have been in 2,000 years. Now whether this is just a natural warming phase of the Earth, whether humans have anything to do with it, etc. might be up for debate, but not whether it is indeed warming up. I do not think discounting technological fixes for the problem is prudent, especially for those that advocate continuing to use oil, and other fossil fuels. I am not saying that fossil fuels are causing the majority of the problem (it might just be a natural cycle of the earth, or solar flareups, or anything else) but the technological fixes (solar shields, etc.) could be a way to alleviate some of the problems.

#38 mikelorrey

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 04:53 AM

I speak of the IPCC reports that have come out regularly. They are widely available online, particularly at the UN IPCC website. (BTW: no surprise, Michael Mann was involved in drafting the IPCC conclusions)

81 did not respond as the AP reporter desired, does not mean they didn't respond.

The article you cite is using Mann's debunked Hockey Stick fraudulent math, as M&M's climateaudit.org details. The NAS has proven its own scientific fraud, by dismissing all of Mann's methods as bunk, but still holds to his conclusions (http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=715). NO article depending on it can be regarded as valid science reporting. Mannian hockey sticks are orgone machines. The man has been fired from two positions since he came out with his fraud.

It is coming out that those who are in the Mann team of fraudulent science, who M&M refer to as "The Hockey Team", are in a habit of hiding their data to prevent its cross examination: http://www.climateau...?p=720#more-720

The NAS's claims that pre-20th century temperature changes were less severe than CO2 related changes in the 20th is also fraudulent. The Dalton Minimum of the early 19th century was a period of severe cooling.

It is quite evident to objective persons that there is extensive academic fraud going on.

#39 Live Forever

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 05:23 AM

I speak of the IPCC reports that have come out regularly. They are widely available online, particularly at the UN IPCC website. (BTW: no surprise, Michael Mann was involved in drafting the IPCC conclusions)

So you use IPCC data to support your conclusions, but this Michael Mann character that you keep ranting on about is involved in drafting their conclusions? I don't guess I follow your logic.

81 did not respond as the AP reporter desired, does not mean they didn't respond.

The article you cite is using Mann's debunked Hockey Stick fraudulent math, as M&M's climateaudit.org details. The NAS has proven its own scientific fraud, by dismissing all of Mann's methods as bunk, but still holds to his conclusions (http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=715). NO article depending on it can be regarded as valid science reporting. Mannian hockey sticks are orgone machines. The man has been fired from two positions since he came out with his fraud.

It is coming out that those who are in the Mann team of fraudulent science, who M&M refer to as "The Hockey Team", are in a habit of hiding their data to prevent its cross examination: http://www.climateau...?p=720#more-720

The NAS's claims that pre-20th century temperature changes were less severe than CO2 related changes in the 20th is also fraudulent. The Dalton Minimum of the early 19th century was a period of severe cooling.

It is quite evident to objective persons that there is extensive academic fraud going on.

I am in no way an expert, but I am now leary of links that you are providing since the earlier one was clearly biased. I am in no way equipped to argue with you on this topic. Also, since I do not believe there is enough evidence that man has a hand in this, only that there is indeed global warming, I will stick to that position since the overwhelming majority of evidence is to that effect. I know that you can pick holes in anything, and the people arguing against the evidence for global warming are (in my mind) like the creationists arguing against evolution. In other words, yes you can pick holes in theories, but the majority of evidence is on the side of global warming happening (and evolution being fact :) ). The argument comes in whether man plays a part, and if so, how much of a part.

#40 mikelorrey

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 07:15 PM

The quoting function seems to be broken...

I have cited multiple time, climateaudit.org, the blog of the canadian researchers who have debunked Mann's fraudulent hockey stick.

On the contrary, given the dependence of the GW hypothesis on the fraudulent tactics of Mann's Hockey Team, it is as clear that GW is a hoax as much as Creationists who point to dinosaur foot prints that look human.

I would suggest that you are suffering from a political selection effect in refusing to critically examine the controversy regarding the hockey stick fraud. The left is just as capable of scientific fraud as the right (just look at the fraud that is socialism, which was once regarded as 'scientific').

The fact that you can feed white noise into Mann's software and come out with a hockey stick should be objective enough to anybody claiming to be scientific that Mann's work is a fraud.

#41 Live Forever

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 08:09 PM

The quoting function seems to be broken...

No, it is just the regular "quote bug" that has been around for awhile. You have to hit enter after the second [ /QUOTE] sign to put it down on the next line. If there are too many quotes (quotes on top of quotes), it sometimes will not work.

I have cited multiple time, climateaudit.org, the blog of the canadian researchers who have debunked Mann's fraudulent hockey stick.

On the contrary, given the dependence of the GW hypothesis on the fraudulent tactics of Mann's Hockey Team, it is as clear that GW is a hoax as much as Creationists who point to dinosaur foot prints that look human.

I would suggest that you are suffering from a political selection effect in refusing to critically examine the controversy regarding the hockey stick fraud. The left is just as capable of scientific fraud as the right (just look at the fraud that is socialism, which was once regarded as 'scientific').

The fact that you can feed white noise into Mann's software and come out with a hockey stick should be objective enough to anybody claiming to be scientific that Mann's work is a fraud.


Firstly, your logic still baffles me: You disagree with Mann --> Mann contributed to the IPCC studies --> You use the IPCC studies to prove your point
I assume you see the logical inconsistency

I am open minded about this, and willing to give an alternative theory a second look, but this one guy certainly isn't making the entire case for gobal warming. There are lots of other people, studies, etc. out there, no? Like I said I am not terribly informed about this particular subject, but it seems the overwhealming amount of studies and information out there confirms global warming. You will definitely have to do more than discredit one individual to persuade me from what is accepted by a majority of the scientific community. I am not saying that it is correct, just that I am much more apt to believe what most scientists believe (evolution, gravity, global warming, etc. etc.) than an alternative theory unless sufficient proof is given. (proof = neutral parties, like independent news organizations (not the biased one you originally linked to) and peer reviewed scientific studies) I can assure you, I am not blinded by political selection. In fact, I am much closer to your end of the political spectrum (taking a look at your blog) than Gore's, but am also logical, and do not go for every conspiracy theory and alternative to the scientific mainstream that is presented, without proper proof.

#42 rahein

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 05:18 PM

It amazes me how people like you, Mike, are willing to gamble with our only planet, all to make a few $$$. Given a %.0001 chance that humans are causing global warming with increased CO2 and other greenhouse gas emissions, I would support curbing those emissions to 0 over the next 50 years or less. The chance seems to be much higher then that closer to %99.9999.

I don’t take chances with my health and I don’t take chances on the health of our planet.

There is no reason that curbing CO2 emissions would hurt the economy. This is a false dichotomy. The same argument has also used to support slavery. How could farms be profitable without enslaving people? We better bring slaves back the lack of them is hurting the economy. Has the level of debate in America and the world really come down to false dichotomies, and only that? Every issue today seems to have an us and them side. Either we hurt our economy to save the planet or hurt the planet to save the economy. This is a ridicules assumption. We can reinvigorate the economy with green tech. The only people who will be hurt are the oil companies and everyone in their pockets. Of course in America that might be every industry and the government and most of the people.

We only got one planet, let’s not mess it up for short term gains.

#43 mikelorrey

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 06:44 PM

It amazes me how people like you, Mike, are willing to gamble with our only planet, all to make a few $$$. Given a %.0001 chance that humans are causing global warming with increased CO2 and other greenhouse gas emissions, I would support curbing those emissions to 0 over the next 50 years or less. The chance seems to be much higher then that closer to %99.9999.

I don’t take chances with my health and I don’t take chances on the health of our planet.

There is no reason that curbing CO2 emissions would hurt the economy. This is a false dichotomy. The same argument has also used to support slavery. How could farms be profitable without enslaving people? We better bring slaves back the lack of them is hurting the economy. Has the level of debate in America and the world really come down to false dichotomies, and only that? Every issue today seems to have an us and them side. Either we hurt our economy to save the planet or hurt the planet to save the economy. This is a ridicules assumption. We can reinvigorate the economy with green tech. The only people who will be hurt are the oil companies and everyone in their pockets. Of course in America that might be every industry and the government and most of the people.

We only got one planet, let’s not mess it up for short term gains.


Your rhetoric of outrage is hollow, rahein. I can say that you are the one gambling with our only planet, wilfully ignoring the real observations of solar astronomers that indicate that a major cooling period is coming. I could say I am amazed that people like you would be so biased and selective in what science you are willing to consider to fit your prejudices (but I'm really not that amazed) and in order to conform with your political agenda, all to make a few $$$ via the welfare state.

The facts are that Scarfetta has proven directly that 15-35% of warming is most definitely produced by increased solar irradiance. Nobody has examined how much the past centuries unusually high solar maxima have contributed to the reduced albedo of our planet. We can say that the environmental Clean Air laws have, in fact drastically reduced the amount of particulates in the atmosphere, particulates which also contribute to cloud formation, so we can say that at least some of the reduced albedo of Earth is directly because of environmental laws. Thus the Clean Air Act can be blamed for global warming at least as much as CO2 pollution. Why is it that you and your kind are so enthused only to regulate CO2, but not work to increase Earth's albedo, if you are so convinced that warming is happening? Is it because you are politically biased, and don't want to pay YOUR FAIR SHARE?

#44 emerson

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 06:51 PM

The same argument has also used to support slavery. How could farms be profitable without enslaving people?


Of course the southern states in the US do have their share of economic problems now. I'm not familiar enough to say one way or another if the changes from the "war of northern aggression" could have more to do with it, or what percentage was already existent from what I understand to be a pretty big social divide at the time between the white folk of different income down there.

Sometimes the negatives are worth it in the long run compared to the positives within situations of grey. I actually side with you in thinking it's best to err on the side of caution when it comes to the environment. But I also think sometimes there's little option but to get a bit of damage for a good cause.

#45 Live Forever

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 09:18 PM

An article mentioned in a blog post on Betterhumans about how to combat global warming through the use of different geoengineering techniques.

Hooray for innovation!

#46 scottl

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 09:23 PM

From WSJ online


Don't Believe the Hype
Al Gore is wrong. There's no "consensus" on global warming.

BY RICHARD S. LINDZEN
Sunday, July 2, 2006 12:01 a.m.

According to Al Gore's new film "An Inconvenient Truth," we're in for "a planetary emergency": melting ice sheets, huge increases in sea levels, more and stronger hurricanes, and invasions of tropical disease, among other cataclysms--unless we change the way we live now.
Bill Clinton has become the latest evangelist for Mr. Gore's gospel, proclaiming that current weather events show that he and Mr. Gore were right about global warming, and we are all suffering the consequences of President Bush's obtuseness on the matter. And why not? Mr. Gore assures us that "the debate in the scientific community is over."

That statement, which Mr. Gore made in an interview with George Stephanopoulos on ABC, ought to have been followed by an asterisk. What exactly is this debate that Mr. Gore is referring to? Is there really a scientific community that is debating all these issues and then somehow agreeing in unison? Far from such a thing being over, it has never been clear to me what this "debate" actually is in the first place.

The media rarely help, of course. When Newsweek featured global warming in a 1988 issue, it was claimed that all scientists agreed. Periodically thereafter it was revealed that although there had been lingering doubts beforehand, now all scientists did indeed agree. Even Mr. Gore qualified his statement on ABC only a few minutes after he made it, clarifying things in an important way. When Mr. Stephanopoulos confronted Mr. Gore with the fact that the best estimates of rising sea levels are far less dire than he suggests in his movie, Mr. Gore defended his claims by noting that scientists "don't have any models that give them a high level of confidence" one way or the other and went on to claim--in his defense--that scientists "don't know. . . . They just don't know."

So, presumably, those scientists do not belong to the "consensus." Yet their research is forced, whether the evidence supports it or not, into Mr. Gore's preferred global-warming template--namely, shrill alarmism. To believe it requires that one ignore the truly inconvenient facts. To take the issue of rising sea levels, these include: that the Arctic was as warm or warmer in 1940; that icebergs have been known since time immemorial; that the evidence so far suggests that the Greenland ice sheet is actually growing on average. A likely result of all this is increased pressure pushing ice off the coastal perimeter of that country, which is depicted so ominously in Mr. Gore's movie. In the absence of factual context, these images are perhaps dire or alarming.

They are less so otherwise. Alpine glaciers have been retreating since the early 19th century, and were advancing for several centuries before that. Since about 1970, many of the glaciers have stopped retreating and some are now advancing again. And, frankly, we don't know why.





The other elements of the global-warming scare scenario are predicated on similar oversights. Malaria, claimed as a byproduct of warming, was once common in Michigan and Siberia and remains common in Siberia--mosquitoes don't require tropical warmth. Hurricanes, too, vary on multidecadal time scales; sea-surface temperature is likely to be an important factor. This temperature, itself, varies on multidecadal time scales. However, questions concerning the origin of the relevant sea-surface temperatures and the nature of trends in hurricane intensity are being hotly argued within the profession.
Even among those arguing, there is general agreement that we can't attribute any particular hurricane to global warming. To be sure, there is one exception, Greg Holland of the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colo., who argues that it must be global warming because he can't think of anything else. While arguments like these, based on lassitude, are becoming rather common in climate assessments, such claims, given the primitive state of weather and climate science, are hardly compelling.

A general characteristic of Mr. Gore's approach is to assiduously ignore the fact that the earth and its climate are dynamic; they are always changing even without any external forcing. To treat all change as something to fear is bad enough; to do so in order to exploit that fear is much worse. Regardless, these items are clearly not issues over which debate is ended--at least not in terms of the actual science.

A clearer claim as to what debate has ended is provided by the environmental journalist Gregg Easterbrook. He concludes that the scientific community now agrees that significant warming is occurring, and that there is clear evidence of human influences on the climate system. This is still a most peculiar claim. At some level, it has never been widely contested. Most of the climate community has agreed since 1988 that global mean temperatures have increased on the order of one degree Fahrenheit over the past century, having risen significantly from about 1919 to 1940, decreased between 1940 and the early '70s, increased again until the '90s, and remaining essentially flat since 1998.

There is also little disagreement that levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere have risen from about 280 parts per million by volume in the 19th century to about 387 ppmv today. Finally, there has been no question whatever that carbon dioxide is an infrared absorber (i.e., a greenhouse gas--albeit a minor one), and its increase should theoretically contribute to warming. Indeed, if all else were kept equal, the increase in carbon dioxide should have led to somewhat more warming than has been observed, assuming that the small observed increase was in fact due to increasing carbon dioxide rather than a natural fluctuation in the climate system. Although no cause for alarm rests on this issue, there has been an intense effort to claim that the theoretically expected contribution from additional carbon dioxide has actually been detected.

Given that we do not understand the natural internal variability of climate change, this task is currently impossible. Nevertheless there has been a persistent effort to suggest otherwise, and with surprising impact. Thus, although the conflicted state of the affair was accurately presented in the 1996 text of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the infamous "summary for policy makers" reported ambiguously that "The balance of evidence suggests a discernible human influence on global climate." This sufficed as the smoking gun for Kyoto.

The next IPCC report again described the problems surrounding what has become known as the attribution issue: that is, to explain what mechanisms are responsible for observed changes in climate. Some deployed the lassitude argument--e.g., we can't think of an alternative--to support human attribution. But the "summary for policy makers" claimed in a manner largely unrelated to the actual text of the report that "In the light of new evidence and taking into account the remaining uncertainties, most of the observed warming over the last 50 years is likely to have been due to the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations."

In a similar vein, the National Academy of Sciences issued a brief (15-page) report responding to questions from the White House. It again enumerated the difficulties with attribution, but again the report was preceded by a front end that ambiguously claimed that "The changes observed over the last several decades are likely mostly due to human activities, but we cannot rule out that some significant part of these changes is also a reflection of natural variability." This was sufficient for CNN's Michelle Mitchell to presciently declare that the report represented a "unanimous decision that global warming is real, is getting worse and is due to man. There is no wiggle room." Well, no.

More recently, a study in the journal Science by the social scientist Nancy Oreskes claimed that a search of the ISI Web of Knowledge Database for the years 1993 to 2003 under the key words "global climate change" produced 928 articles, all of whose abstracts supported what she referred to as the consensus view. A British social scientist, Benny Peiser, checked her procedure and found that only 913 of the 928 articles had abstracts at all, and that only 13 of the remaining 913 explicitly endorsed the so-called consensus view. Several actually opposed it.

Even more recently, the Climate Change Science Program, the Bush administration's coordinating agency for global-warming research, declared it had found "clear evidence of human influences on the climate system." This, for Mr. Easterbrook, meant: "Case closed." What exactly was this evidence? The models imply that greenhouse warming should impact atmospheric temperatures more than surface temperatures, and yet satellite data showed no warming in the atmosphere since 1979. The report showed that selective corrections to the atmospheric data could lead to some warming, thus reducing the conflict between observations and models descriptions of what greenhouse warming should look like. That, to me, means the case is still very much open.





So what, then, is one to make of this alleged debate? I would suggest at least three points.
First, nonscientists generally do not want to bother with understanding the science. Claims of consensus relieve policy types, environmental advocates and politicians of any need to do so. Such claims also serve to intimidate the public and even scientists--especially those outside the area of climate dynamics. Secondly, given that the question of human attribution largely cannot be resolved, its use in promoting visions of disaster constitutes nothing so much as a bait-and-switch scam. That is an inauspicious beginning to what Mr. Gore claims is not a political issue but a "moral" crusade.

Lastly, there is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition. An earlier attempt at this was accompanied by tragedy. Perhaps Marx was right. This time around we may have farce--if we're lucky.

Mr. Lindzen is the Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Atmospheric Science at MIT.

#47 kevin

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 11:37 PM

Oh.. yeah.. Richard Lindzen is a *real* independent voice on the matter of global warming.. he's bought and paid for on the payroll of 'oil and coal interests'...

http://www.sourcewat...hard_S._Lindzen

#48 scottl

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 11:43 PM

Oh.. yeah.. Richard Lindzen is a *real* independent voice on the matter of global warming..  he's bought and paid for on the payroll of 'oil and coal interests'... what a crock.

http://www.sourcewat...hard_S._Lindzen



"The important thing to note is that there is at least as large a motive for those funded with public money controlled by "peer reviews" to find results that support their own position as there is for the holder of an MIT chair founded by a deceased General Motors executive to question them."

http://www.jerrypour...421.html#Friday

#49 kevin

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 12:05 AM

that's just obfuscation scott... this is not an academic question where the results are relatively inconsequential... its quite simple really..

1) evidence exists to show the world is warming
2) CO2 is a greenhouse gas
3) people produce CO2 with fossil fuels

ergo

people cause global warming..

that there are a few dissenters whose pay depends on being a dissenter does not take away from the facts. It is certainly more in the best interests of the Lindzen to take the contrary position, but it is certainly less obviously so for people on the public payroll despite the insinuation that their motives are less than unbiased.

The potential for disaster, loss of life and immense suffering is so great the even if the chance is GREATER that fossil fuels are not the cause of global warming, we should STILL be doing everything we can to promote the development of alternative fuels.. for an abundant number of reasons.

it just makes sense..

#50 scottl

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 12:34 AM

Kevin,

We....humans, scientists, physicians are often certain that we understand things only to later learn that we were grossly incorrect. Medicine is littered with such examples (and not a few resultant corpses). If you already know the truth you ain't gonna be open to any new facts.

Do you remember the contrarian...scientist...perhaps he was a chaos theory guy in the book Jurassic park? The park creaters were so sure they had thought of everything. I think of him often and the law of unintended consequences.

Anyway point is I am all for gathering knowledge so we are sure we know what is what.

I'm all for switching to e.g. nuclear fuel..which is unacceptable to the left wing folks for other reasons. I completely agree that we need to be looking for alternate energy sources. In fact Jerry points out that if we had taken the money spent on iraq, (and I agree) but that is another story. Anyway what did you have in mind by:

"we should STILL be doing everything we can to promote the development of alternative fuels"

I suspect I would agree on those lines. I only object to doing something that will result in major harm if we learn we are wrong about warming (the potential for causing colossal harm in the name of trying to do good is real depending on what one is proposing).

#51 kevin

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 07:13 AM

I would suggest carbon sequestering technologies and development of alternative fuels to reduce the CO2 in the atmosphere to historical levels would hardly result in dire results.

Nuclear fuels with the radioactive waste they produce *should* be a non-starter. If nuclear fuels weren't already in existence with a lobby group to push them forward as fossil fuels become a little more painfully expensive, and someone came along and suggested that this 'new' form of energy be used, and "by the way, the mutagenic radiation lasts for millenia", they wouldn't stand a chance. Supporting one of the most poisonous alternatives when the technology to develop green energy is proving within reach is nonsensical.

The future belongs to the ultimate form of energy that is not going to run out for millions of years.. solar power and I believe hydrogen. Plants figured out how to harvest solar energy, so as proof of principle, we should be able to replicate at least partially their success in getting photons to help chemical reactions along to split water to produce hydrogen. Recently new analysis of the photoreaction center has mapped the path the energy follows through it in quite incredible detail. It is entirely possible that in the near future, nanotech will be able to create artificial photoreaction centers and direct the energy for uses that plants would never have developed.

Really the number of possibilities are quite large and diverse, and all it takes is a little common sense, imagination and support borne of the realization that other routes are less preferable. As long as people continue to think in the manner which provided us with the problems we are dealing with today, we will continue to get the same stellar results.

The problem is incredibly complex, but the solution is relatively simple; apply human ingenuity and new technologies. But in order to realize the simple solution, a level of maturity and sense of common purpose is required which largely escapes those more bent on ensuring their immediate need for protection from hyped threats, entertainment and accumulating past reason is met.

As usual, it is only when a problem hits people in the face that they act. Until then, as long as there is a possibility that they might get away with letting others deal with it without expending resources, most people are happy to take the free-ride, which is actually not a bad evolutionary strategy except when existential risks are involved.

Edited by Kevin Perrott, 08 July 2006 - 07:25 AM.


#52 Lazarus Long

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 08:33 AM

Agricultural based biofuels are a form of carbon trap as they recycle the carbon out of the atmosphere and lock it back up as sugars, starches and cellulose, not mention more complex compounds.

Also nanotech manipulation of smokestack pollutants and bacteriological manipulation of waste water may yet be converted to carbon fibers as nanotubes. This approach could locks up significant amounts of carbon as complex building materials for everything from surfboards to spaceships.

The side benefit of these processes are also fuels like hydrogen, electricity and O2 in a form of synthetic photosynthesis. IMHO it is really more a question of how soon can we begin retooling for the future rather than should many of these things be done.

#53 scottl

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 11:27 AM

I believe Jerry has talked about putting solar cells in orbit and....think it was microwaveing the energy down. No clouds or atmostphere to worry about. Course you would not want terrorists to get hold of the microwave link. Anyway I'm all for any new forms of energy--that do not turn us into a 3rd world coutry (hyperbole warning).


Personally I'll vote against manipulating Co2 levels for reasons above till we know more beyond a shadow of a doubt.

#54 knite

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 01:07 PM

Agricultural based biofuels are a form of carbon trap as they recycle the carbon out of the atmosphere and lock it back up as sugars, starches and cellulose, not mention more complex compounds.

Also nanotech manipulation of smokestack pollutants and bacteriological manipulation of waste water may yet be converted to carbon fibers as nanotubes. This approach could locks up significant amounts of carbon as complex building materials for everything from surfboards to spaceships.

The side benefit of these processes are also fuels like hydrogen, electricity and O2 in a form of synthetic photosynthesis. IMHO it is really more a question of how soon can we begin retooling for the future rather than should many of these things be done.


We would have to be careful with this i think, though it may seem far in the future, if this became a large industry it could have adverse effects on plantlife (and thinking of only the present is what put us in the situation we are in now.)

#55 Athanasios

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 04:22 PM

The models imply that greenhouse warming should impact atmospheric temperatures more than surface temperatures, and yet satellite data showed no warming in the atmosphere since 1979. The report showed that selective corrections to the atmospheric data could lead to some warming, thus reducing the conflict between observations and models descriptions of what greenhouse warming should look like. That, to me, means the case is still very much open.


Could someone more knowledable break this down for me? If he feeding a line here?

#56 Lazarus Long

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 06:30 PM

This issue was addressed earlier this year when the data being used to support the assertion was discredited and second the greenhouse warming models used as the premise are now considered antiquated. These models are also in revision as new data forces systems analysis and revision.

Google the premise and you'll find some peer reviewed articles on the subject. I will later if I can get some time. For now it is back to the shop.

#57 Live Forever

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 02:23 PM

Here is a link to an interesting article entitled "Funding A Global Warming Skeptic", about how coal-burning utilities are passing the hat for one of the few remaining scientists skeptical of the global warming harm caused by industries that burn fossil fuels.

#58 Live Forever

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 07:57 AM

The Colbert Report response to the movie "An Inconvenient Truth", with a powerpoint presentation and all:


#59 Lazarus Long

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 05:52 PM

Report on the 13th Session of the SPARC Scientific Steering Group
26-29- September 2005, Oxford, UK

http://www.atmosp.ph.....rt SSG13.html

Detection/Attribution/Prediction

W. Randel noted that the main thrust of this theme at the moment is the updated trend assessment. The scope is to provide an update of the observed stratospheric temperature record (through 2004), and improve the understanding of past changes and predictions of future stratospheric temperature changes, especially by reducing uncertainties in the predictions. The first meeting occurred in March 2005 in Reading to plan the scope of the project and to take an initial look at the updated observations. It was decided that the group would first write a paper on the updatedobservations, with focus on satellites, radiosondes and lidar data. A draft should be completed before the second meeting planned for October 20-21 in Boulder.

The initial results show a flattening of trends at the stratopause, and a small longterm cooling in the middle stratosphere. However, biases in the data are as large as the signal and these biases extend into the upper and middle troposphere. Some key points to consider are that the stratospheric temperature record is highly dependent on SSU data (currently, only one analysis of combined SSU record), and that there are small trends in the tropical lower stratosphere in MSU4 and SSU15x data and that these trends are very different from ones obtained using radiosonde data. This is probably a result of artificial cooling biases in the radiosonde ascent observations, causing jumps in the timeseries at some stations. The strong upper stratospheric> cooling ends after 1995, in reasonable agreement with the HALOE data, and there are small global trends in the middle stratosphere in the SSU data. A small cooling trend is also seen in the tropics when the less biased sondes are used.

Two questions that arise are: a) Why are the middle atmosphere trends so small? and b) Why does the Boulder data not agree with the HALOE data, which shows a sharp drop in water vapour after 2001? Of all the data, the Boulder data is the only data that are not fully understood. In addition, it has been shown that using reanalysis or operational analyses/reanalyses data sets is problematic for studying trends.

T. Shepherd continued discussion of the Detection, Attribution and Prediction theme by highlighting questions concerning understanding of the natural variability. In 1997, there was considerable concern about the rapid decrease seen in both temperature and ozone in Arctic spring. Today, that behaviour looks more like a fluctuation. In addition, changes in total ozone over the last 25 years in both hemispheres seem roughly consistent with Cly loading, but there are also shorter term fluctuations that we would like to understand. This may be possible using imposed “forcings” (volcanic aerosols, solar, SSTs, QBO), however, some of these forcings are actually internal variability, and so imposing these in models gives only partial understanding of the climate system. One key question for the attribution, detection and prediction theme is quantifying the natural variability, which appears to possess long time-scales that are comparable to the perturbations themselves. It cannot be assumed that every decadal fluctuation is a trend.



Report on the ILAS Validation Experiments Interim Report Meeting in Paris
http://www-ilas.nies.../34/nl34_2.html

Fox featured only skeptics,
http://mediamatters....ms/200605230001

On Special Report, Barnes misled on global warming
http://mediamatters....ms/200605250006

Changing Sun, Changing Climate?
http://www.aip.org/h...imate/solar.htm

More links after I reboot my comp is getting heatstroke

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#60 stephen

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 08:47 PM

The threat to life is not Mel Gibson folks, it is the auto-actualizing behaviors of endtimers that both consciously and unconsciously drive humanity to fulfill their prophecies though mass hysteria.  The larger the population of believers the more the risk. Particularly as that population moves from being a minority to a majority of the members of any given population and also on multiple contrasting sides of their prevalent social conflicts.


I thought this was an excellent quote. Relevant in the previous thread, as well as this one.

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