40 replies to this topic

[ortcloud]

Has anyone tried all 4 of these senolytics: fisetin, dastanib, foxo4-dri and azithromycin to compare the effects?

 

I am thinking about trying all of these and see if they give different effects or some combined synergy. I know it would be completely anecdotal but I am just so curious how they compare and also don't want to miss out on the effects from one and not the other. I see people doing repeated rounds of single senolytics like D+Q or fisetin etc. but don't see much rotation or experimentation.

 

My question is also what order would you take them in if you were going to do all 4?

Edited by ortcloud, 26 May 2020 - 05:00 PM.

[VP.]

Dr Green has a new site that may answer some of your questions. This is not a endorsement though I have done Fisetin and D&Q.

https://senolyticstreatment.com/

[aribadabar]

FWIW  I have done D+Q, D+Q+F and Doxycycline+Azi separated 3 months apart so I can't say how they compare head-to-head one right after the other.

The only thing that is unmistakable when D hits you hard - the others I couldn't tell I have taken them at all.

[ortcloud]

 

The only thing that is unmistakable when D hits you hard - the others I couldn't tell I have taken them at all.

 

Thanks for the response. How much D were you taking?

[aribadabar]

Thanks for the response. How much D were you taking?

Tried both 75 and 100mg/d for 2 days.

[Daniel Cooper]

If I had access to known genuine foxo4-dri and were willing to try it I don't know why I'd try the other three.  Fox04-dri should be effective against all types of senolytic cells in theory, whilst those others are only shown to be effective against specific cell types.

 

 

[ortcloud]

If I had access to known genuine foxo4-dri and were willing to try it I don't know why I'd try the other three.  Fox04-dri should be effective against all types of senolytic cells in theory, whilst those others are only shown to be effective against specific cell types.

 

Make sense but I see alot of people doing rounds of senolytics every 3 weeks as they find that is when their symptoms revert. You can buy genuine foxo4 but at a 3 week schedule and depending on the dose the price could really add up.

[aribadabar]

Make sense but I see alot of people doing rounds of senolytics every 3 weeks as they find that is when their symptoms revert. You can buy genuine foxo4 but at a 3 week schedule and depending on the dose the price could really add up.

 

It depends on the age as senescent cells rise in an exponential fashion. If you are sub-50, I don't see the need for such an aggressive frequency. Starting early would take care of the small number so even a quarterly sweep would seem sufficient.

If over 50 - starting monthly and then tapering to quarterly after 5-6 cycles makes sense.

[ortcloud]

It depends on the age as senescent cells rise in an exponential fashion. If you are sub-50, I don't see the need for such an aggressive frequency. Starting early would take care of the small number so even a quarterly sweep would seem sufficient.

If over 50 - starting monthly and then tapering to quarterly after 5-6 cycles makes sense.

 

Makes sense but it in practice it turns out not to be true. I have been scouring the internet for experiences on senolytics and some as young as late 30s to early 40s have noticed they have reversion of symptoms at 3 weeks and they have been doing these rounds for a couple of years with the same effect. I argued initially because it just didnt make sense but their symptoms that are relieved and then revert are undeniable. It doesnt make sense why this would be but its turning out to be the case.

[p75213]

Makes sense but it in practice it turns out not to be true. I have been scouring the internet for experiences on senolytics and some as young as late 30s to early 40s have noticed they have reversion of symptoms at 3 weeks and they have been doing these rounds for a couple of years with the same effect. I argued initially because it just didnt make sense but their symptoms that are relieved and then revert are undeniable. It doesnt make sense why this would be but its turning out to be the case.

What are the symptoms of cell senescence?

[ortcloud]

What are the symptoms of cell senescence?

 

 

 

I have seen users talk about a wide range of various age related complaints disappear after the person takes a round.

 

So I dont think there are specific symptoms of cell senescence, it is different for everyone.

[VP.]

Makes sense but it in practice it turns out not to be true. I have been scouring the internet for experiences on senolytics and some as young as late 30s to early 40s have noticed they have reversion of symptoms at 3 weeks and they have been doing these rounds for a couple of years with the same effect. I argued initially because it just didnt make sense but their symptoms that are relieved and then revert are undeniable. It doesnt make sense why this would be but its turning out to be the case.

I had rather noticeable effects on the first dose but not the second dose of D&Q. About 7 months apart at age 58.

[Daniel Cooper]

Make sense but I see alot of people doing rounds of senolytics every 3 weeks as they find that is when their symptoms revert. You can buy genuine foxo4 but at a 3 week schedule and depending on the dose the price could really add up.

 

It's hard to imagine that anyone would build up a significant number of senolytic cells in 3 weeks. Cellular senescence doesn't work that way.  I'd have to suspect that the placebo effect is in play here.

[ortcloud]

It depends on the age as senescent cells rise in an exponential fashion. If you are sub-50, I don't see the need for such an aggressive frequency. Starting early would take care of the small number so even a quarterly sweep would seem sufficient.

If over 50 - starting monthly and then tapering to quarterly after 5-6 cycles makes sense.

 

You don't see the need if you are under 50 and I used to agree with you but that is just theory and it turns out its not true.

After reading many peoples experience of some who are even under 40 and noticed a 3 week effect and so they redose

the senolytic every 3 weeks and that is what is needed to maintain the effect.

[ortcloud]

It's hard to imagine that anyone would build up a significant number of senolytic cells in 3 weeks. Cellular senescence doesn't work that way.  I'd have to suspect that the placebo effect is in play here.

 

I completely agree, it is hard to imagine but it turns out we are wrong and they see a regression of symptoms, some very physical and not mental or subjective so it is not placebo.

 

I don't understand it, it makes no sense, but its real and the effect has been reported by many people that I found on several forums.

 

Even the mayo clinic protocol states to repeat it monthly.

[Daniel Cooper]

I completely agree, it is hard to imagine but it turns out we are wrong and they see a regression of symptoms, some very physical and not mental or subjective so it is not placebo.

 

I don't understand it, it makes no sense, but its real and the effect has been reported by many people that I found on several forums.

 

Even the mayo clinic protocol states to repeat it monthly.

 

Mental symptoms are pretty much by definition subjective, unless it's something that shows up in an MRI.  And if we're talking about how you "feel physically" those are subjective as well.

 

Now, if we're talking about something that shows up in blood labs, ok I'll give you that's not subjective.

 

Never underestimate the power of placebo.  That's why we do randomized double blind tests.

 

Tell me more about this Mayo Clinic protocol.  Are they really advocating monthly senolytic treatments ad infinitum or are they doing a set number of monthly senolytic treatments to avoid side effects then backing off to something less frequent?

[ortcloud]

I said they were not mental symptoms. Physical symptoms such as prostate issues or wrinkles on someone face. I know you are having a tough time believing this, I did to.

 

But after reading alot of these reports and they all mention this 3-4 week effect then eventually you start to realize there is something there.

 

Believe me, I had the same argument with them that you are having with me and I tried to tell them they were wrong.

 

Truth is we don't know what is happening, maybe @Turnbuckle can shed some light, he was one of the first posts mentioning this phenomenon.

[aribadabar]

You don't see the need if you are under 50 and I used to agree with you but that is just theory and it turns out its not true.

After reading many peoples experience of some who are even under 40 and noticed a 3 week effect and so they redose

the senolytic every 3 weeks and that is what is needed to maintain the effect.

 

I guess we will do what we think holds true. Senescent cells don't accumulate that fast ( especially after a few monthly sweeps) so there is some other reason they feel improvement.

And yes, please do post details of that monthly Mayo clinic protocol

[Daniel Cooper]

I'd certainly like to see the source for these claims.  Maybe they are true, but I can't make any judgement without the source research.

 

Wrinkles appearing and disappearing on a four week time span seems unlikely, but I'm open to the evidence.

 

 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 22 June 2020 - 03:24 PM.

[ortcloud]

I'd certainly like to see the source for these claims.  Maybe they are true, but I can't make any judgement without the source research.

 

Wrinkles appearing and disappearing on a four week time span seems unlikely, but I'm open to the evidence.

 

 

I am glad to interact with both of you and I don't mind being challenged but I am not here to do research or dig up links for you in an attempt to convince you.

 

Again, I actually agree with you, it doesnt make any sense, yet I keep hearing the same thing over and over in actual experience so there is something here we just dont know what it is.

The only theory I can think of is maybe cells become hypersenstive to SASP and healthy cells revert into that mode with less senescent cells or signaling than with previously higher levels.

 

Which brings to my next point. In practical matters it doesnt matter if senescent cells are building up to the same level in 3 weeks as it took a lifetime to build in the first place or not,

people are needing to redose another round to get sustained benefits and that is the key here.

 

Sticking to a regime of quarterly or annually solely because of a belief in something or that it doesnt make sense yet would be a mistake.

[aribadabar]

You claimed you have read about 1) consistent user experiences in forums advocating for 3-week frequency and 2) a purported monthly Mayo senolytic protocol.

It stands to reason that you can easily link those resources which impressed you significantly from what you stated and from the fact you interacted with those resources multiple times .

 

We ask to show us where you have seen these two items which is not an unreasonable request. 

Extraordinary claims require solid evidence and we have seen nothing of the sort. Absent any data, your claiming that longer-than-monthly frequency is a mistake is just your/anyone's opinion/guess.

[ortcloud]

You claimed you have read about 1) consistent user experiences in forums advocating for 3-week frequency and 2) a purported monthly Mayo senolytic protocol.

It stands to reason that you can easily link those resources which impressed you significantly from what you stated and from the fact you interacted with those resources multiple times .

 

We ask to show us where you have seen these two items which is not an unreasonable request. 

Extraordinary claims require solid evidence and we have seen nothing of the sort. Absent any data, your claiming that longer-than-monthly frequency is a mistake is just your/anyone's opinion/guess.

 

 

It doesn't stand to reason at all. I have read alot of sites over the past 6 months, I dont easily have the links to every page I have read, I would have to go back and google it and find them.

Again, I am not here to try to convince you of anything, its very strange that you think I am here to retrieve items and bring them to you. I am not here to serve you. If you want to see the mayo protocol, just google it, you can find it just as fast I can.

 

Besides, if you have never heard heard of the mayo clinic protocol then you probably haven't done much research on senolytics in general and this would probably be a good exercise for you.

[aribadabar]

It doesn't stand to reason at all. I have read alot of sites over the past 6 months, I dont easily have the links to every page I have read, I would have to go back and google it and find them.

Again, I am not here to try to convince you of anything, its very strange that you think I am here to retrieve items and bring them to you. I am not here to serve you. If you want to see the mayo protocol, just google it, you can find it just as fast I can.

 

Besides, if you have never heard heard of the mayo clinic protocol then you probably haven't done much research on senolytics in general and this would probably be a good exercise for you.

 

When you asked something up thread I answered without beating around the bush like you are doing so it was not unreasonable to expect the same. Moreover, you should know that claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.  I doubt someone will take you seriously with this uppity attitude of yours. This conversation is over for me.

[Daniel Cooper]

I am glad to interact with both of you and I don't mind being challenged but I am not here to do research or dig up links for you in an attempt to convince you.

 

Again, I actually agree with you, it doesnt make any sense, yet I keep hearing the same thing over and over in actual experience so there is something here we just dont know what it is.

The only theory I can think of is maybe cells become hypersenstive to SASP and healthy cells revert into that mode with less senescent cells or signaling than with previously higher levels.

 

Which brings to my next point. In practical matters it doesnt matter if senescent cells are building up to the same level in 3 weeks as it took a lifetime to build in the first place or not,

people are needing to redose another round to get sustained benefits and that is the key here.

 

Sticking to a regime of quarterly or annually solely because of a belief in something or that it doesnt make sense yet would be a mistake.

 

Normal etiquette on this site is that if you cite some information you should attempt to provide a source.  In other words, the person making the claim should back it up with a reference.

 

You certainly are free to ignore that etiquette, but don't be surprised if you get a negative response from other posters.

[ambivalent]

Why are operate under the assumption that the clearance achieved by dose + 3 weeks is only that which has accumulated during those three weeks? Why not assume that the first dose gets rid of some and the second some more? Particularly, I would guess in areas where they tend to gather on mass such as arthritis, wrinkles.

[BrandonFlorida]

I have been using fisetin for about a year.  My fidelity varies.  I have gone for months taking 100 mg twice daily, but also gone for months taking it only when I think of it.  I take about 25 other supplements and have for many years.  Is it helping me?  I have no idea.  I am 67 and look younger.  Sometimes I have had to show a driver's license to make people believe my age, but who knows what's caused that?  Based on my reading, though, it would seem impossible that the fisetin isn't helping.

[ortcloud]

I have been using fisetin for about a year.  My fidelity varies.  I have gone for months taking 100 mg twice daily, but also gone for months taking it only when I think of it.

 

Fisetin doesnt have senolytic cell killing effect at that doseage.

 

Have you considered taking a senolytic size dose like the mayo clinic protocol?

[BrandonFlorida]

At what dosage does that effect begin?

[ortcloud]

At what dosage does that effect begin?

 

mayo clinic protocol is 20mg/kg so that is like 2,000mg for 2 days only per month

 

but I have seen lower doses like 500mg for 5 days but not sure how well that is proven to work.

[revenant]

I am male, almost 54 years, and weigh about 160 lbs. I have taken fisetin @ 2000 mg a day for 4 days in a row, twice in the past two months. I will continue this each month for a year, at least. I can't comment on results, other than to mention that I have not noticed anything adverse.

Edited by revenant, 10 May 2021 - 05:01 AM.