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Skin care with liposomal NAD+, NMN, and NR?

nad+ nmn nr skincare skin liposomal

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15 replies to this topic

#1 CharlieG

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Posted 14 November 2020 - 01:25 AM


I've been using the Renue body lotion for about 6 weeks, and really like it. I do find I have to apply it in the morning, as it interferes with sleep if I apply before bed.



#2 Linux

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Posted 15 November 2020 - 09:17 PM

There´s no published evidence that topical NMN, NR or NAD+ can penetrate skin or do anything beneficial.

 

Topical niacinamide on the other hand is thoroughly studied in skincare. It was first used orally to treat the dermatitis of pellagra and later topically at 4% to treat acne.

 

Niacinamide increases NAD+ in the skin, enhances DNA repair post UVB-irridation, decreases hyperpigmentation and strengthens the skin barrier. You can find it in many brands but Olay (Procter & Gamble) launched it for the massmarket in the early 2000s.

 

Some good brands using between 2-5% niacinamide are: Cerave (4%), La Roche Posay Lipikar (4%), Olay (2-4%) and Skinceuticals (5%).

 

"Niacinamide - mechanisms of action and its topical use in dermatology"

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....h.gov/24993939/


Edited by Linux, 15 November 2020 - 09:29 PM.

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#3 Linux

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Posted 16 November 2020 - 03:42 AM

Really? What is "Pointless, dangerous and irresponsible" by stating that niacinamide is the only topical vitamin B3 with published evidence behind it? You wonder if Alivebyscience got their whole office registered here on longecity just to downvote anything that may affect their sales lol

 

Topical nicotinic acid can cause redness so it is rarely used. I´ve seen derivatives of it used in lip "plumpers".

 

Please show me ONE clinical trial on topical NMN or NR. Just one. There aren´t any. Just patent filings at this stage. NR isn´t stable in solution for example. Niacinamide is.


Edited by Linux, 16 November 2020 - 03:49 AM.

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#4 Gal220

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Posted 18 November 2020 - 05:14 AM

Agree, some icons should require a comment.  Maybe still a little testy from the other thread.  I gave you some good point checks though !


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#5 Linux

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Posted 19 November 2020 - 04:58 PM

Agree, some icons should require a comment.  Maybe still a little testy from the other thread.  I gave you some good point checks though !

 

Thank you, appreciate it! I want people to spend their money on a topical NAD-precursor with real clinical testing behind it, not hype. Topical niacinamide really works and dermatologists know that.


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#6 Gal220

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Posted 19 November 2020 - 06:51 PM

Good point !


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#7 Linux

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Posted 19 November 2020 - 07:25 PM

There are ZERO studies using topical NMN or NR published on pubmed. Zero. 

 

A search for "topical niacinamide" results in 204 hits:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi....cal niacinamide


Edited by Linux, 19 November 2020 - 07:28 PM.

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#8 CharlieG

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Posted 19 November 2020 - 07:35 PM

I don’t know anything about the science, and certainly don’t want to get in the middle of arguments about products.  But I see they referred to a study where topical NAD was effective at treating psoriasis in humans:

 

"According to this study, it’s as effective as the leading pharmaceutical at treating psoriasis, and without side effects. NAD+ mitigates cellular damage and lessens inflammation, which leads to a visible improvement in the skin"

 


Edited by CharlieG, 19 November 2020 - 07:59 PM.

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#9 Linux

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Posted 22 November 2020 - 11:08 AM

I don’t know anything about the science, and certainly don’t want to get in the middle of arguments about products.  But I see they referred to a study where topical NAD was effective at treating psoriasis in humans:

 

 

The experiment used NAD+ in vaseline ointment and the formula was higly unstable and needed refrigeration or it decomposed.

 

Any untested commercial NAD+-formula (from Alivebyscience or any other company) will be decomposed unless continually refrigerated. Consumers can not know if the vehicle even delivers the NAD to the skin since the products have no published data behind them.

 

"It was demonstrated that NAD+ underwent a considerable decomposition at room temperature, while it was sufficiently stable at 5°C; thus, for a longer use the agent should be stored at fridge temperature."  

 

 

https://www.karger.c.../Abstract/96170

 

NAD+ is too big to enter cells directly. It has to be cleaved extracellularly by ecto enzymes to NMN, NR and nicotinamide that can then be absorbed and converted further to NAD within cells.

 

There are no commercial product with stable NAD+ with any clinical trials showing absorption or skin rejuvenation.

 

Neither are there any topical NR or NMN products with any human studies backing the use of them. NR and NMN is not stable in solution long term. They hydrolyze in water. We don´t know if and how skin cells react to these forms of vitamin B3 and metabolites of B3. Topical niacinamide is stable, been in many clinical trials showing efficacy and increases NAD+ in human skin.

 

Besides, Alivebyscience make unfounded claims of skin rejuvenation of topical NAD while this small pilot experiment only looked at a skin disease of hyperprofileration and inflammation. 

 

Topical niacinamide on the other hand has clinical trials showing skin rejuvenation, increased cell turnover, decreased skin yellowing, collagen stimulation, increased production of barrier repairing ceramides, skin brightening and increased DNA-repair, decreased inflammation, anti-psoriasis and anti-acne therapeutic effects.


Edited by Linux, 22 November 2020 - 12:06 PM.

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#10 Harkijn

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Posted 23 November 2020 - 07:17 AM

Yes, I agree. I would never ingest Niacinamide for longevity, but for topical use I have NAM powder that I add to a skin cream whenever I have a healed wound  or blemish on my skin. Even a few permanent bruises seemed to react favorably to application of NAM.



#11 able

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 12:32 AM

The experiment used NAD+ in vaseline ointment and the formula was higly unstable and needed refrigeration or it decomposed.

 

 

 

Topical niacinamide on the other hand has clinical trials showing skin rejuvenation, increased cell turnover, decreased skin yellowing, collagen stimulation, increased production of barrier repairing ceramides, skin brightening and increased DNA-repair, decreased inflammation, anti-psoriasis and anti-acne therapeutic effects.

 

 

Thats great your research found niacinamide (NAM) is so useful for skin care.

 

I know nothing about skin care.  However, I would think that skin cells are similar to every other cell in the body, in that research consistently shows NAD+, NMN, and NR are equal, or more beneficial that NAM.  

 

Are there any studies that show NAM being more effective than NMN, NR, NAD+?

 

I noticed today that Dr Brenner applauds coating a substance in lipids to enter cells:

 

"1st, coat in lipids for cellular delivery."

 

Quicksilver and ABS are coating NAD+ in lipids for cellular delivery.

 

Yet you claim their NAD+ that is enclosed in lipids is totally degraded to NAM.

 

Even if you are right that the liposomal products are totally degraded to NAM, according to you it would be very effective for skin care, so I don't see what you are trying to prove here.

 

Do you think the products are degraded to NAM, so are therefore too expensive?


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#12 Linux

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 06:52 AM

 

Are there any studies that show NAM being more effective than NMN, NR, NAD+?

 

Even if you are right that the liposomal products are totally degraded to NAM, according to you it would be very effective for skin care, so I don't see what you are trying to prove here.

 

Do you think the products are degraded to NAM, so are therefore too expensive?

 

You are asking the wrong question. There is abundant research on the effectiveness of topical niacinamide.

 

The question to ask is: are there any studies that show NMN, NR or NAD+ to be effective for topical skin rejuvenation or repair? The answer is no.

There´s no such evidence as of this writing. 

 

Procter & Gamble that launched niacinamide in skin care commercially (it was used for acne in a 4% gel earlier in dermatology) in the early 2000s had a deal with Chromadex to look at developing NR for topical use. Nothing came of that and I suspect it is because NR is not stable in aqueous solutions. It could also have been that NR showed no advantage over NAM when used topically. 

 

Since there is no evidence that topical NR, NMN or NAD+ is stable in skin care products or even absorbed and turned to NAD+...why on earth would you buy them when we already have inexpensive (or expensive if you like. There are niacinamide products for $300 too) niacinamide products that are stable, increase NAD+ in skin and with proven benefits? 

 

Companies that now launch NR, NMN and NAD+ skin care is using the hype around oral use of these compounds. But delivery of molecules to the skin is quite different from systemic use and expert cosmetic chemists knows what solvents, emulsifiers, pH and temperatures to use when formulating topicals. Then these topicals needs to be studied to show that they are stable on the shelf, non-irritating and absorbed by human skin.

 

Alivebyscience´s "Renue" and other fly-by-night "NAD+ boosting" skin care brands have zero proof of effectiveness.

 

Some good brands using between 2-5% niacinamide are:

 

  • Cerave (4%)
  • La Roche Posay Lipikar (4%)
  • Olay (2-4%)
  • Skinceuticals (5%).

You can even find 10-20% niacinamide in Dr Sam Bunting or Paula´s Choice products.


Edited by Linux, 24 November 2020 - 07:25 AM.

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#13 able

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 04:33 PM

are there any studies that show NMN, NR or NAD+ to be effective for topical skin rejuvenation or repair? The answer is no.

There´s no such evidence as of this writing. 

 

 

 

I believe the research that CharlieG posted above says the answer is yes.

 

 

 

 I suspect it is because NR is not stable in aqueous solutions.

 

 

The Reneu product you hate so much has no water listed in the ingredients.   

 

https://alivebyscien...-defying-serum/

 

 


why on earth would you buy them when we already have inexpensive (or expensive if you like. There are niacinamide products for $300 too) niacinamide products that are stable, increase NAD+ in skin and with proven benefits? 

 

 

Every study I have ever seen shows NAD+, NR, and NMN are more beneficial that NAM in various tissues. I don't see any reason to believe skin cells are any different than every other cell in the body.  They would seem to have potential to be much better for skin as well.

 

If your guess is right and the products are not stable, and it deteriorates to NAM, it doesn't seem any risk as you keep pointing out how good NAM  is in skin care products.

 

I do take Niagen capsules, but also hedge my bets with other NAD+ precursors while awaiting more clinical trial results.


Edited by able, 24 November 2020 - 04:38 PM.

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#14 Linux

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 08:35 PM

 

 

I believe the research that CharlieG posted above says the answer is yes.

 

 

 

 

The study was using a NAD+ ointment to try and treat psoriasis, it wasn´t a study on skin rejuvenation. So the answer is yet again, no.

 

It doesn´t matter what you believe The science supports using niacinamide topically. There´s no research showing NR, NMN or NAD+ to be effective for skin rejuvenation. There may well be in the future. But right now we know that niacinamide increases DNA-repair and treats hyperpigmentation and acne.

 

Renue is expensive and has ZERO research backing it up for topical use.

 

Niacinamide is inexpensive and readily bioavailable, converted to NAD+ and it has 204 citations on pubmed backing it up for topical use.


Edited by Linux, 24 November 2020 - 08:45 PM.

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#15 Gal220

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 11:47 PM

I do take Niagen capsules, but also hedge my bets with other NAD+ precursors while awaiting more clinical trial results.

 

 

Whatever the truth is, i would just like to say I appreciate you putting words behind your argument instead of just hitting dangerous irresponsible... on skin care of all things.


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#16 CharlieG

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Posted 26 November 2020 - 07:23 PM

I got an email this week about another brand of NAD+ for skincare.  Pricey, but I think I'll give this one a try - maybe won't interfere with my sleep like the Alivebyscience product does.
https://nadiaskin.com


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