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Risky vaccination experiments - Co-signing the petition

coronavirus

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#31 Mr Serendipity

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Posted 18 December 2020 - 05:31 PM

Hip you might want to move to communist China, I hear they have a social credit system there that would fit perfectly for your needs.


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#32 Hip

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Posted 18 December 2020 - 07:33 PM

Hip you might want to move to communist China, I hear they have a social credit system there that would fit perfectly for your needs.

 

I don't think so. We need truth warts and all; we don't want suppression of uncomfortable facts. The Chinese did not even live broadcast their recent mission to bring back rocks from the moon, in case it failed live on TV, which might make China look bad.

 

I was thinking of something more like the Stasi: a ruthless police force who come to pay you a visit in your home when you transgress against truth, or say something which shows you are a lunatic. They could do things to you to make sure you never transgressed again... Joking of course!

 

 

But I would like to see more reward for diligent deep thinkers whose opinions are based on evidence and solid careful reasoning. And penalties for Internet blusterers who only offer uneducated and shallow analyses.

 

The Internet will become the future brain of humanity. It's all our individual consciousnesses wired together, just like the human brain is individual neurons wired together.

 

Allowing lunatics on the Internet is analogous to the human brain having a mental health problem.

 


Edited by Hip, 18 December 2020 - 07:55 PM.

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#33 Hip

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Posted 19 December 2020 - 07:49 PM

Prominent anti-vaxer Del Bigtree tries to misinform the world by Tweeting half-truths and misinformation about the coronavirus vaccine.
 
Basically he Tweeted that a nurse collapsed soon after getting the coronavirus vaccine.
 
 
 
Here now is the full truth:

Who's bright idea was that? Nurse who faints when she feels pain is chosen to get Pfizer's vaccine live on air... and collapses moments after the jab

  • Nurse Tiffany Dover fainted on TV 17 minutes after receiving the vaccine
  • She was talking about why it was important for healthcare workers to receive it
  • Dover later said she has a condition that causes her to faint when she feels pain
  • She says she is not skeptical about the vaccine or worried about side effects
  • She didn't explain why she then thought it would be a good idea to go on TV and get it when she knows she's prone to collapsing
  • Vasovagal Syncope is the most common cause of fainting
  • It is the name given to sudden fainting from triggers like pain, needles, dehydration or hunger

 
 
 
 
Synopsis of Del Bigtree:

“Del Bigtree was a mediocrity who found he could gather a following (and make money) by joining the anti-vaccine bandwagon. He was a minor producer for the daytime TV show “The Doctors” before he quit to join Andrew Wakefield’s team creating the fake documentary “Vaxxed”. If you’ve forgotten Del (or never knew who he was), we discussed him and his efforts a great deal during time Vaxxed was being shown. Since then he’s grown his online presence, spreading conspiracy theories, anti-vaccine messages and general bad medical information.”




Like many online, it seems Bigtree is not interested in truth, and does not care if you are misinformed, he's just interested in making money.


Edited by Hip, 19 December 2020 - 08:38 PM.

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#34 zorba990

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Posted 20 December 2020 - 04:53 PM

What say ye to these stats?

https://www.cdc.gov/...COVID-CLARK.pdf

3,150 / 112,807 (unable to perform normal daily activities, unable to work, required care from doctor or health care professional)

And this is just what is reported (admitted to), and quite early on. Long term effects who knows?
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#35 Dorian Grey

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Posted 21 December 2020 - 05:21 AM

Prominent anti-vaxer Del Bigtree tries to misinform the world by Tweeting half-truths and misinformation about the coronavirus vaccine.
 
Basically he Tweeted that a nurse collapsed soon after getting the coronavirus vaccine.
 
 
 
Here now is the full truth:

 
 
 
 
Synopsis of Del Bigtree:




Like many online, it seems Bigtree is not interested in truth, and does not care if you are misinformed, he's just interested in making money.

 

Don't really see Bigtree's great sin there.  I saw the video of the nurse collapsing.  If a couple of her colleagues hadn't helped her to the floor, she likely would have done a major face-plant.  I guess it wasn't all that "soon" after getting the jab though.  Just over a quarter of an hour no?  Perhaps he should have chosen his words more carefully.  

 

Oh...  The nurse had "a condition" that caused her to faint when she felt pain?  Conditions usually have proper names, and this was a nurse, who should know her medical terminology.  Can't help but wonder what the mystery condition is.  Vasovagal syncope is a common enough occurrence with injections of all kinds.  Typically happens right as they get the jab, sometimes before the nurse even has a chance to inject the med & get the needle out.  

 

Intense pain can also cause vasovagal.  I've heard persistent "pain at injection site" is common with this vax, so perhaps this was what was happening.  

 

If you wish to truly witness misinformation, look here: https://www.dailymai...g-tomorrow.html

 

"During its trial phase, 137 of the 20,000 who got the vaccine had allergic reactions But 111 people among the 20,000 who were given a placebo also had allergic reactions which made scientists dismiss it."

 

111 who got the "placebo" also had allergic reactions???  There is no possibility to get an allergic reaction to a true saline placebo, so no this was not a placebo, but a "COMPARATOR" vaccine.   

 

This is a little trick big pharma uses to help avoid statistically significant side effects.  Instead of using a true saline placebo, they use another vaccine and call it a placebo.  The rationale is, many vaccines have noticeable side effects, so if you use a saline placebo, both doctors & trial participants would know who got the saline.  By using a comparator vaccine, with side effects of its own, you can more effectively "blind" the study.  

 

What's really helpful about using a comparator though, is that you get to compare side effects of your trial vax to side effects of an approved vax, which can make your new jab look much better.  Can you imagine how it would look if the Pfizer jab had 137 allergic reactions compared to ZERO for the placebo?  This would be a statistically significant issue.  By using a comparator, with its own 111 allergic reactions...  Hey Presto!  Your new jab suddenly doesn't look that bad.  

 

Stay tuned for the real horror-show, as the second jab is typically what produces the most fireworks.  High fevers...  Teeth chattering so badly they crack?  

 

https://www.cnbc.com...-headaches.html

 

"Another coronavirus vaccine trial participant, testing Pfizer’s candidate, similarly woke up with chills, shaking so hard he cracked a tooth after taking the second dose"

 

I'm wondering how the old folks in the nursing homes will be doing with this.  Don't suppose they'll have many cameras documenting the after-effects.  


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#36 Dorian Grey

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Posted 21 December 2020 - 04:47 PM

Here's Del Bigtree's Informed Consent Action Network lawsuit against FDA to get them to stop approving use of fake placebos in the AZ coronavirus vaccine trial.  

 

https://www.icandeci...1-COMPLAINT.pdf

 

MENVEO is actually a meningococcal vaccine and not a placebo.  

 

Placebo: An inactive material, often in the form of a capsule, pill or tablet, that is visually identical in appearance to a drug being tested in a clinical trial. The use of placebo control is a required component of the FDA’s drug approval process, as the agent must be proven more effective than the placebo.


Edited by Dorian Grey, 21 December 2020 - 04:51 PM.


#37 Hip

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Posted 21 December 2020 - 05:17 PM

Don't really see Bigtree's great sin there.

 
You don't think it's wrong to push out disinformation just in order to advance your cause, like Bigtree did here in this Tweet? Are you suggesting that the disinformation tactics of the post-truth era are a good approach? 

 

 

 

 

Here's Del Bigtree's Informed Consent Action Network lawsuit against FDA to get them to stop approving use of fake placebos in the AZ coronavirus vaccine trial.  
 
https://www.icandeci...1-COMPLAINT.pdf
 
MENVEO is actually a meningococcal vaccine and not a placebo.  
 
Placebo: An inactive material, often in the form of a capsule, pill or tablet, that is visually identical in appearance to a drug being tested in a clinical trial. The use of placebo control is a required component of the FDA’s drug approval process, as the agent must be proven more effective than the placebo.

 

Del Bigtree obviously was not paying much attention during sciences classes. He's probably an arty type (television producer), so may not have any scientific brains at all. Maybe he's the non-techie type, who struggles to change a lightbulb or fix a fuse.

 

The point of a randomized placebo-controlled trial is that neither the doctors administering the trial, nor patients in the trial, know who is getting the test drug and who is getting the placebo. This type of setup is the gold standard of scientific evidence. If patients have an inkling about whether they are getting the drug or the placebo, it invalidates the whole trial.

 

When a drug under test causes side effects, this makes it harder to set up such trials. In these cases, active placebos are used. Active placebos are chosen that cause similar side effects to the test drug, to ensure nobody knows whether they are getting the drug or the placebo.

 

It's rather silly of Del Bigtree not to take this into account. What alternative is Bigtree proposing, which still maintains the gold standard of testing? Or could it be, like most people who shout the loudest online, that he hasn't thought it through? 

 

 

 

 

More here about Bigtree's bonkers ravings: 

 

During the COVID-19 pandemic, Bigtree used the webcast to propagate a number of conspiracy theories, such one postulating that the virus responsible had been made in a laboratory by the pharmaceutical industry. Going against the advice of health authorities, he recommended to his viewers not to wear masks, to refuse the vaccine when it is developed and to make actual efforts to infect themselves with the virus.

 


Edited by Hip, 21 December 2020 - 05:28 PM.

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#38 Dorian Grey

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Posted 21 December 2020 - 06:07 PM

Don't really see the disinformation in Del's tweet.  He tweeted she collapsed shortly after getting the vaccine.  Is this not what in fact happened?  Are you saying the nurse did not in fact collapse?  Do you think this happened before she got the vaccine?  

 

The rationale for "active" placebos is tempting, but these do not give you an accurate measurement of side effects like allergic reaction if you are comparing to an active placebo that causes substantial reactions itself.  This is how they've gotten into the mess they have with the roll-out.  They had a fair amount of allergic reactions during the trial, but these were obscured because rather than documenting them properly, they simply compared them relative to the reactions in their fake placebo.  

 

There may well be a place for active placebos in research, but you should identify them as such and not simply call them placebos.  True placebos are completely inert and have no physiological effect.  


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#39 Hip

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Posted 21 December 2020 - 07:44 PM

Don't really see the disinformation in Del's tweet.


It's possible at the time of the tweet, Bigtree did not know that the nurse has a condition that causes her to faint from the pain of a needle, but that info is out there now. So given that Bigtree is a major personality in the antivax movement, and he influences many people, you would expect him to delete the tweet, and issue another tweet explaining what really happened.

 

That's called honesty. Remember that?
 

 

There may well be a place for active placebos in research, but you should identify them as such and not simply call them placebos.  True placebos are completely inert and have no physiological effect.

 

Where do you get this idea that "true placebos" are completely inert? Placebos should have no therapeutic effect (no effect on the symptom or medical condition you are trying to treat), but they can certainly have other effects, and it is often desirable that they should.

 

An example is sham surgery: if you want to test the efficacy of surgery in a trial, you can perform sham surgery on half the patients, and the real surgery on the other half. The sham surgery is the placebo. But the sham surgery still involves the patients being anesthetized, cut open, and in fact in the sham case, the surgeon will usually carry out much of the activity of the real operation, except the final important surgical step which addresses the medical problem.

 

Another example is acupuncture trials: these are notoriously hard to placebo-control, but these days sham acupuncture needles are available for use in such trials. These sham needles create a pricking sensation on the skin, and look just like real acupuncture needles, but they do not penetrate deep into the tissues like the real needles do. 

 

 


Edited by Hip, 21 December 2020 - 07:46 PM.

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#40 Dorian Grey

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Posted 21 December 2020 - 08:59 PM

I've had a lot of shots over my lifetime, & donated over 7 gallons of whole blood.  Never felt needle pain over a quarter of an hour after the jab.  Her mysterious "condition" is a bit too mysterious for me.  

 

Placebo: late 18th century: from Latin, literally ‘I shall be acceptable or pleasing’, from placere ‘to please’.

 

Don't know what could possibly be pleasing about a sham surgery or control med with side effects, but then that's just me.  

 

 



#41 Hip

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Posted 21 December 2020 - 10:04 PM

I've had a lot of shots over my lifetime, & donated over 7 gallons of whole blood.  Never felt needle pain over a quarter of an hour after the jab.  

 

That is a non-sequitur statement. How does the fact that you personally have never suffered a medical condition have any bearing on whether others might suffer it? 

 

 

I am familiar with her medical condition, known as vasovagal syncope (also has many other medical names, including: neurally mediated syncope, neurocardiogenic syncope, vasodepressor syncope, vasovagal syncope and reflex syncope).

 

People with vasovagal syncope faint because of a sudden drop on blood pressure, causing a loss of blood in the brain. An emotional shock can also make people with vasovagal syncope faint. Sometimes they will just faint anyway, if they stand up for too long.


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#42 Hip

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Posted 22 December 2020 - 01:48 AM

Placebo: late 18th century: from Latin, literally ‘I shall be acceptable or pleasing’, from placere ‘to please’.

 

Don't know what could possibly be pleasing about a sham surgery or control med with side effects, but then that's just me.  

 

Medical scientists and psychologists understand why a sham surgery would result in a placebo effect. The placebo effect is a complex subject. Looking up word etymology is not a substitute for in-depth medical knowledge of this field. Sorry to be blunt.


Edited by Hip, 22 December 2020 - 01:50 AM.

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