25 replies to this topic

[advancedatheist]

I haven't heard of any wealthy supercentenarians. I suspect more of them than not grew up and lived dirt-poor like this lady who died at age 116:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16157420/

MEMPHIS, Tenn. - Elizabeth "Lizzie" Bolden, recognized as the world's oldest person, died Monday at a Memphis nursing home, not far from the Tennessee fields she and her husband farmed as teenagers almost 100 years ago. . .

. . . James Bolden said he remembered the grandmother he called "Mamma Lizzie" as a robust farm woman who worked beside her husband, Lewis, in the fields they began farming together in Fayette County in 1908.

"They were both 19 years old when they started," Bolden said.

Elizabeth and Lewis Bolden had seven children and raised cotton and subsistence crops on farmland near Memphis until the 1950s, James Bolden said.

Their example suggests that wealth by itself can't do much to buy you more than average longevity in developed countries.

[garethnelsonuk]

Though it is a stereotype - perhaps lazy lifestyle and bad diet come alongside with the middle and upper class?

[william7]

That's a very interesting observation. Sounds like good news for the poor. Luke 4:18. Maybe it'll encourage the rich to give up their wealth to follow Jesus (Matthew 19:21) and live communally sharing all things like the early Christian Church did. Acts 4:32.

Makes a guy want to turnover a new leaf. What do you say advancedatheist?

[advancedatheist]

Though it is a stereotype - perhaps lazy lifestyle and bad diet come alongside with the middle and upper class?

Anyone growing up in an industrializing country around the beginning of the 20th Century lived in conditions probably worse than much of today's Third World. Even the so-called rich people back then lived in conditions we'd consider camping. (For one thing, they'd have to sweat out their summers like everyone else.)

[advancedatheist]

That's a very interesting observation. Sounds like good news for the poor. Luke 4:18. Maybe it'll encourage the rich to give up their wealth to follow Jesus (Matthew 19:21) and live communally sharing all things like the early Christian Church did. Acts 4:32.

Makes a guy want to turnover a new leaf. What do you say advancedatheist?

Not interested. Atheists have given up on communism because "there's no money in it," like a comedian said on Saturday Night Live about 15 years ago.

[struct]

AA thanks for the news about the 116-years-old.

That's a very interesting observation. Sounds like good news for the poor.
Makes a guy want to turnover a new leaf. What do you say advancedatheist?

Back in those days the rich had the opportunity of having more tobacco, alcohol, butter, pastries and sugar at his 'grandous' house and didn't move that many muscles to get those. Nowadays, things have turned the other way around. The poor looks more like what rich people looked (physically) back then--FAT. Today it's more expensive to buy greens than burgers and pastries.

[advancedatheist]

AA thanks for the news about the 116-years-old.

Back in those days the rich had the opportunity of having more tobacco, alcohol, butter, pastries and sugar at his 'grandous' house and didn't move that many muscles to get those.  Nowadays, things have turned the other way around.  The poor looks more like what rich people looked (physically) back then--FAT.  Today it's more expensive to buy greens than burgers and pastries.

On the other hand, poor and even "middle-class" people in the 19th Century tended to grow up physically impaired by today's standards, which makes the poor supercentenarians who outlived them even into the 21st Century all that much more amazing. They managed to avoid all the prenatal and early life developmental traumas that determine your adult health and life expectancy according to Reliability Theory:

http://www.nytimes.c...&pagewanted=all

In other words, the supers haven't done anything like what life extension quacks say will "build your bridge to living forever," except perhaps for enduring stretches of involuntary caloric restriction because they couldn't afford to buy enough food.

[Mind]

In other words, the supers haven't done anything like what life extension quacks say will "build your bridge to living forever," except perhaps for enduring stretches of involuntary caloric restriction because they couldn't afford to buy enough food.

...and don't forget the benefits of vigorous exercise! The farm life.

[maestro949]

In other words, the supers haven't done anything like what life extension quacks say will "build your bridge to living forever," except perhaps for enduring stretches of involuntary caloric restriction because they couldn't afford to buy enough food.

But isn't it likely that from among this population of quacks that a percentage of them will pick the right blend of supplements, lifestyle changes, drug cocktail and therapies that mitigates or slows the accumulating damage?

[advancedatheist]

But isn't it likely that from among this population of quacks that a percentage of them will pick the right blend of supplements, lifestyle changes, drug cocktail and therapies that mitigates or slows the accumulating damage?

And a percentage of them could also come up with a combination of "treatments" that will make you sicker and die younger. We need an efficient, scientifically defensible search strategy to rule out the bad "life extension" ideas quickly.

For example, I don't have any emotional investment in Aubrey's SENS project. If his ideas don't work, we need to find that out sooner rather than later, so that we can direct resources towards more promising strategies.

[xanadu]

I think there is a lot of truth in the observation that the poor ate less and did more physical labor which stood them in good stead as far as their health. Perhaps even caloric restriction. In additon to that, what they ate tended to be low in fat and high in fiber because they couldn't afford the rich food enjoyed by the wealthy. A lifetime of physical labor seems to be good for the body if not done to excess.

You can't say all that means that people today who are trying for life extention with supplements as well as diet and lifestyle changes are wrong. They haven't had a chance yet to prove what they are preaching. Sure, todays centenarians tended to be poor and very likely the lifestyle of the poor was good for health in the long term. It was bad for health in the short term but those who escaped death by violence, disease or starvation had healthier bodies. Give today's crop of potential centenarians time to prove their case. We will know in a few decades whether mortality rates are lower for the Duke Nukem's of society or if the simple poor folk continue to outlive them. I'm betting that what we've learned about lifestyle and supplements will pay off big time.

[kgmax]

I just want to bring up a small point. Supercenten....(really old people) are statistically likely to have grown up poor. The early 1900's were not known for a large population of wealthy people.

I really do not see that nearly enough study has been done on the contributing factors of longevity. Trends and micro studies such as caloric restriction are misleading. I look forward to more serious studies and research.

[struct]

I haven't heard of any wealthy supercentenarians. I suspect more of them than not grew up and lived dirt-poor like this lady who died at age 116:

Before this poor lady who was the oldest validated person in the world only for less than 4 months there was Maria who kept the world's oldest living person for about 7 years.

María Esther de Capovilla (September 14, 1889 – August 27, 2006) of Guayaquil, Ecuador, at the time of her death at age 116 years and 347 days, was recognized by Guinness World Records as the world's oldest living person. She was the last remaining documented person born in the 1880s.

Biography
Born as María Ester Heredia Lecaro in Guayaquil, María was the daughter of a colonel, and lived a life among the upper-class elite, attending social functions and art classes. She never smoked or drank hard liquor. In 1917, she married a military officer, Antonio Capovilla, who died in 1949. Antonio, an ethnic Italian, was born in Pola, Austria-Hungary (now Pula, Croatia) in 1864. He moved to Chile in 1894 and then to Ecuador in 1910. After his first wife died, he married María. They had five children, three of whom were still living at her passing (the oldest two had predeceased her): Hilda, 81; Irma, 80; and son Anibal, 78. She also had eleven grandchildren, twenty great-grandchildren, and two great-great-grandchildren. [1]
At age 100, María nearly died and was given last rites, but had been free of health problems since then. As recently as December 2005 Maria was said to be in good health and able to watch TV, read the papers and walk without the aid of a stick (though she was helped by an aide). However, she was unable physically to leave her home in the past two years, which she shared with her eldest surviving daughter, Hilda, and her son-in-law. In a media interview, María stated her dislike of the fact that women nowadays are permitted to court men, rather than the reverse.
By March 2006, María's health had declined somewhat, and she was no longer able to read the newspaper. She had also nearly stopped talking and no longer walked except when helped by two persons. Still, María was able to sit erect in her chair and fan herself, and had been doing 'fine' until she succumbed to a bout of pneumonia in the last week of August 2006.

As you see she lived a life among the upper-class elite.
Tough to say if being reach or poor has to do anything about living longer.

[advancedatheist]

María Esther de Capovilla (September 14, 1889 – August 27, 2006) of Guayaquil, Ecuador, at the time of her death at age 116 years and 347 days, was recognized by Guinness World Records as the world's oldest living person. She was the last remaining documented person born in the 1880s. . .

As you see she lived a life among the upper-class elite.
Tough to say if being reach or poor has to do anything about living longer.

Maybe she benefitted from a diet rich in omega-3 fatty acids, living on a seaport like Guayaquil. Maria's mother probably ate a lot of seafood while carrying Maria in the womb, which gave Maria the advantage a reduced prenatal damage load.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guayaquil

Still, the South American "elite" in the 19th Century looked nearly shabby compared with the elites in Europe and the U.S. from the same era.

[struct]

Maybe she benefitted from a diet rich in omega-3 fatty acids, living on a seaport like Guayaquil. Maria's mother probably ate a lot of seafood while carrying Maria in the womb, which gave Maria the advantage a reduced prenatal damage load.

I agree with you there may be numerous maybe's and numerous maybe's could be said for the poor lady too. As for a diet rich in O-3 she had to be relatively rich to afford it or may be .... ... .

[MichaelAnissimov]

We will know in a few decades whether mortality rates are lower for the Duke Nukem's of society or if the simple poor folk continue to outlive them.

The mortality rate is lower for Duke Nukem because he is constantly kicking so much ass, leaving little time for aging. Hail to the king, baby!

[Matt]

Check out this short program on 2 super centenarians

Story of two Super Centenarians are interviewed in this program, and what centenarians have in common.

Part 1 http://mfile.akamai....491786.200k.asx

Part 2 http://mfile.akamai....502916.200k.asx

Enjoy

[william7]

Can I get an amen on the 2 videos Matt posted? Anybody for setting up a prototype kibbutz dedicated to longevity by the Scriptures? I've given this idea long and deep thought over the years. I can see no other way around it.

[struct]

Can I get an amen on the 2 videos Matt posted?

I won't give you that, but I have something else that may excite or make you happier.
Out of 78 validated supercentenarians (oldest) at this moment 9 of them have the name Maria/Mary.
Or, let me put it this way: Out of the oldest 70 women (validated) 9 of them are named Maria/Mary and one of them is even named Maria de Jesus.

[william7]

(struct)

I won't give you that, but I have something else that may excite or make you happier.
Out of 78 validated supercentenarians (oldest) at this moment 9 of them have the name Maria/Mary.
Or, let me put it this way: Out of the oldest 70 women (validated) 9 of them are named Maria/Mary and one of them is even named Maria de Jesus.

Doesn't excite me at all. In fact, I suspect they were named as such due to the false mother Mary worship promoted by the catholic church. I like the teachings of the various Churches of God that expose catholic and protestant doctrines as pagan and satanic. See, for example, http://www.ucg.org/ and http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/. The only problem is these churches believe in meat eating and money according to Old Testament law. They completely misunderstand and misconstrue the Scriptures on these important matters.

Believe it or not, I'm currently staying at an abandoned Air Force base owned by the pastor of an independent Church of God. I've been making my case to him for teaching veganism and communal living without money as things God and Christ want us to do in the Millennium. The veganism is starting to take hold because he and others here are overweight and at risk for diet-related diseases. The money issue will probably be a little more difficult to get across to them.

Edited by elijah3, 14 December 2006 - 12:52 AM.

[maestro949]

And a percentage of them could also come up with a combination of "treatments" that will make you sicker and die younger.

If supplement junkies are taking different combinations of supps that possibly affect aging then the data from this experimentation has a great deal of value over a period of time. The biggest problem I see is that people are probably not sticking with one regimen but constantly tuning it or making wholesale adjustements. Some may start later in life than others, some may quit entirely or as you suggest expire altogether. It's still all good data but only if we collect it.

We need an efficient, scientifically defensible search strategy to rule out the bad "life extension" ideas quickly.

I don't think anyone would argue with that but the nature of the problem is also the biggest hindrance to doing anything "quickly." There are so many pathologies that accompany aging that it's difficult to suggest even where to start looking for ways to scientifically validate one set of compounds vs another. I don't see "quickly" happening until we have a better understanding of how the various levels of gene expressions, hormone levels and general metabolism affect the decline of the body's various subsystems and we can economically measure these at frequent intervals.

For example, I don't have any emotional investment in Aubrey's SENS project. If his ideas don't work, we need to find that out sooner rather than later, so that we can direct resources towards more promising strategies.

Same here. I support SENs in principal and think it has tremendous value but I see it as only 1/2 the solution as targetting damage seems like a game of whack-a-mole. Damage pops up over here, fix it. Damage pops up of there, fix it. The notion is great but when you consider the comorbidity that plagues most elderly people it seems just as difficult as searching for root causes and solutions. If we can find biomarkers that identify the precursors and underlying causes that lead to the damage, detect them early and then adjust our metabolisms and gene expressions to their youthful functional levels we can mitigate the need for messy procedures that have to operate across all 50 trillion cells in our body.

Edited by maestro949, 16 December 2006 - 01:31 PM.

[advancedatheist]

Hm, another dirt-poor supercentenarian, even older than Jeanne Calment?

http://www.wrdw.com/...es/5010191.html

Thomson woman celebrates 125th birthday
Play Video
Posted: 1:36 PM Dec 26, 2006
Reporter: Lynnsey Gardner
Email: lynnsey.gardner@wrdw.com


December 24, 2006

THOMSON, Ga.---Most of us look forward to Christmas Eve all year...but the celebration doesn't end there for one Thomson woman.

Today Alberta Davis is celebrating her 125th birthday, and six generations of her family came together to celebrate her historic day. . .

Alberta lived more than a century on her own, sometimes without electricity or medicine...but one thing she never lived without is a love for her family. And that love is a gift they're now giving back.

Based on the paperwork from the Social Security office, it is possible that Alberta may be the oldest living person in America.

If the title is made official, we will let you know.

[william7]

She certainly looks to be 125 years old. I wonder if she was a Bible believer like the family member being interviewed.

Makes me wonder how many more dirt-poor supercentenarians there are in the world without the paperwork to prove it.

[struct]

Thomson woman celebrates 125th birthday

She still needs to be validated so that we can [:o] at her.
The world's oldest validated person right now is 115. There are only 83 validated supercentenarians out of 300-500 that could be 'out there' which aren't validated. A significant majority of worldwide claimants to be age 110-or-over have subsequently been proven to be false; these individuals and more often their family or friends have their own personal motives for claiming these persons.
If the above woman (125) is validated she is not only the oldest (validated) living person in USA but also in the world; and not just that, but the oldest validated person that ever lived.
Let's wait and see.

[kylyssa]

The problem with validating the age of people that old is that not every person got a birth certificate or really any other documentation of birth or age on a regular basis. Also, even with documentation and no DNA samples from childhood the person with the documentation could be someone else. It goes both ways.

[openeyes]

I just want to bring up a small point. Supercenten....(really old people) are statistically likely to have grown up poor. The early 1900's were not known for a large population of wealthy people.

Indeed. There may be more poor supercentenarians in part simply because there are vastly more poor than rich people in the world.