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Venezuela welcomes its new dictator.


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#61 EmbraceUnity

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 04:05 AM

Actually Chavez has quite low approval ratings in Latin America outside of Venezuela.

Regarding the democratic situation in Venezuela, it is currently between democracy and dictatorship:
http://www.freedomho...mp;country=7733

US Cold War sponsorship of anti-communist dictatorships does not justify Chavez becoming dictator.


I have no idea what his exact approval ratings in Latin America are, but considering all the coverage he gets you'd think he was hot stuff. As for US interventions in Latin America being just a cold war phenomenon, you are sorely mistaken. Heavy intervention persists throughout the region.

Of course that doesn't justify dictatorial policies, and I explicitly stated that. However, I don't think any such policies should be used as talking points for further imperialism, which they almost invariably are.

#62 Blue

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 09:48 AM

As for US interventions in Latin America being just a cold war phenomenon, you are sorely mistaken. Heavy intervention persists throughout the region.


Really? Do you have any proven example of the US attempting to overthrow a democracy after 1990? Now, I am aware that far left elements thinks that if an earthquake occurs, then this is due an US intervention, but that is something without any evidence. Oh, just because Chavez says somethng weird, as he does frequently, like that the exploding crime in Venezuela is due to US agents, that is not evidence.

Edited by Blue, 08 February 2010 - 09:49 AM.


#63 medicineman

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 01:27 PM

I can't believe Chavez lost..... Shocking.

lol, I find your question funny. Do you have any examples of the US overthrowing any democracy after 1990??? LOL... oh oh oh wait, I have one.

Do you have any example of the English committing mass genocide after 1945???? Oh, so than the hundreds of years of world rape doesn't count :p

Besides your stupid and meaningless question, I highly suggest reading Chomsky's the responsibility of intellectuals.... I came across it recently

http://www.chomsky.i...es/19670223.htm
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#64 Blue

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 07:08 PM

I can't believe Chavez lost..... Shocking.

lol, I find your question funny. Do you have any examples of the US overthrowing any democracy after 1990??? LOL... oh oh oh wait, I have one.

Do you have any example of the English committing mass genocide after 1945???? Oh, so than the hundreds of years of world rape doesn't count :p

Besides your stupid and meaningless question, I highly suggest reading Chomsky's the responsibility of intellectuals.... I came across it recently

http://www.chomsky.i...es/19670223.htm

Apparently you did not "have one" since no one example was given.

Not sure what your point is regarding "mass genocide after 1945???? Oh, so than the hundreds of years of world rape doesn't count". You can hardly be arguing that, say, the Italians are responsible for massacres done by ancient Rome. Likely you are trying to make an argument that capitalism has killed a lot of people by colonialism and imperialism. Again, even if true, this does not justify Chavez becoming a dictator. Regarding your attempted point it is incorrect, colonial exploitation by military force is not capitalism, regardless of done by the British, or Rome, or by Stone Age people. A free market is a mutually agreed exchange. Not theft by the militarily stronger side.

Regarding the hypocrite Choamsky:
http://www.newcriter...am-Chomsky-1733

#65 medicineman

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 02:17 PM

I can't believe Chavez lost..... Shocking.

lol, I find your question funny. Do you have any examples of the US overthrowing any democracy after 1990??? LOL... oh oh oh wait, I have one.

Do you have any example of the English committing mass genocide after 1945???? Oh, so than the hundreds of years of world rape doesn't count :)

Besides your stupid and meaningless question, I highly suggest reading Chomsky's the responsibility of intellectuals.... I came across it recently

http://www.chomsky.i...es/19670223.htm

Apparently you did not "have one" since no one example was given.

Not sure what your point is regarding "mass genocide after 1945???? Oh, so than the hundreds of years of world rape doesn't count". You can hardly be arguing that, say, the Italians are responsible for massacres done by ancient Rome. Likely you are trying to make an argument that capitalism has killed a lot of people by colonialism and imperialism. Again, even if true, this does not justify Chavez becoming a dictator. Regarding your attempted point it is incorrect, colonial exploitation by military force is not capitalism, regardless of done by the British, or Rome, or by Stone Age people. A free market is a mutually agreed exchange. Not theft by the militarily stronger side.

Regarding the hypocrite Choamsky:
http://www.newcriter...am-Chomsky-1733



lol.. im trying to show you that your question is extremely stupid.... Since 2009, has been laden commited a terrorist act??? Ok, than that excuses his actions just like America is alright, since from 1990 onwards, they have not attempted to puppeteer any countries :p

i cant access your article for one, and im not paying for it..... and if you are trying to undermine chomsky with an article by conservative hacks, than here is a big LOL...... you can pay the conservative cronies of your website, and I will read it than.

yea, a free market is mutually agreed exchange..... in your fantasy land, if i needed a kidney, i can get it off the starving man, or if i am a pedophile, i will pay a child to molest him..... yep, mutually agreed exchange :p

Edited by medicineman, 10 February 2010 - 02:26 PM.


#66 DairyProducts

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 03:29 PM

There was a good "intro to Chavez" frontline in 2008 for those unfamiliar with the man or those who want to see footage of 'Aló Presidente.'

http://www.pbs.org/w...ugochavez/view/

I can't believe Chavez lost..... Shocking.

lol, I find your question funny. Do you have any examples of the US overthrowing any democracy after 1990??? LOL... oh oh oh wait, I have one.

Do you have any example of the English committing mass genocide after 1945???? Oh, so than the hundreds of years of world rape doesn't count :)

Besides your stupid and meaningless question, I highly suggest reading Chomsky's the responsibility of intellectuals.... I came across it recently

http://www.chomsky.i...es/19670223.htm

Apparently you did not "have one" since no one example was given.

Not sure what your point is regarding "mass genocide after 1945???? Oh, so than the hundreds of years of world rape doesn't count". You can hardly be arguing that, say, the Italians are responsible for massacres done by ancient Rome. Likely you are trying to make an argument that capitalism has killed a lot of people by colonialism and imperialism. Again, even if true, this does not justify Chavez becoming a dictator. Regarding your attempted point it is incorrect, colonial exploitation by military force is not capitalism, regardless of done by the British, or Rome, or by Stone Age people. A free market is a mutually agreed exchange. Not theft by the militarily stronger side.

Regarding the hypocrite Choamsky:
http://www.newcriter...am-Chomsky-1733



lol.. im trying to show you that your question is extremely stupid.... Since 2009, has been laden commited a terrorist act??? Ok, than that excuses his actions just like America is alright, since from 1990 onwards, they have not attempted to puppeteer any countries :p

i cant access your article for one, and im not paying for it..... and if you are trying to undermine chomsky with an article by conservative hacks, than here is a big LOL...... you can pay the conservative cronies of your website, and I will read it than.

yea, a free market is mutually agreed exchange..... in your fantasy land, if i needed a kidney, i can get it off the starving man, or if i am a pedophile, i will pay a child to molest him..... yep, mutually agreed exchange :p



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#67 Matt

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 03:30 PM

I talk to people from venezuela, most around are teenagers and early 20's, they all hate Chavez calling him a dictator, and tell me how bad the situation is there for them. They all seem to want to get out of the country as soon as they can !

Edited by Matt, 10 February 2010 - 03:30 PM.


#68 Blue

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 09:58 AM

lol.. im trying to show you that your question is extremely stupid.... Since 2009, has been laden commited a terrorist act??? Ok, than that excuses his actions just like America is alright, since from 1990 onwards, they have not attempted to puppeteer any countries :-D

i cant access your article for one, and im not paying for it..... and if you are trying to undermine chomsky with an article by conservative hacks, than here is a big LOL...... you can pay the conservative cronies of your website, and I will read it than.

yea, a free market is mutually agreed exchange..... in your fantasy land, if i needed a kidney, i can get it off the starving man, or if i am a pedophile, i will pay a child to molest him..... yep, mutually agreed exchange :)

The regimes supported by the US during the Cold War generally had a much better record for human rights and development than the Communist ones. North vs. South Korea, Taiwan and Japan vs. China, and so on. Sure, errors were also made by US leaders no longer in power. But if more of the world had become temporarily Communist before the Communist collapse, and thus more countries would have experienced Marxist-Leninist terror, the total suffering would have been much greater.

Regardless, again, past US history does not justify Chavez becoming a dictator.

Not sure why you cannot access the free article unless you are under some form of internet censorship.

Not legal to molest a child in capitalist countries and child molesting existed in both communist and pre-capitalist countries.

Regarding the kidney and more generally limited resources, the unfortunate fact is that we live in a world with limited resources so there will always be people who will have less than what would be preferable. The best we can do is increasing the amount of resources available, and capitalism has done that much better any other system. Likely in the future some form of much less expensive non-human kidney replacement will be available, solving this particular bottleneck. If we do not have progress like in non-capitalist systems then there will always be a lack of kidneys.

Edited by Blue, 11 February 2010 - 10:02 AM.


#69 captainbeefheart

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 04:04 PM

But if more of the world had become temporarily Communist before the Communist collapse, and thus more countries would have experienced Marxist-Leninist terror, the total suffering would have been much greater.


Stalinist terror, not communism, marxist or leninist...

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#70 medicineman

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 01:05 PM

But if more of the world had become temporarily Communist before the Communist collapse, and thus more countries would have experienced Marxist-Leninist terror, the total suffering would have been much greater.


Stalinist terror, not communism, marxist or leninist...


In the US, knowledge regarding marxism is limited to marxist=socialist=stalinist=nonamerican... That is among most people I know, who do not belong to an intellectual crowd. most intellectuals in the US that I have spoken to usually have leftist leanings.. This is not to denounce the general population, this is just a natural result of the Soviet scare and mccarthyism.

This is coming from someone who has lived in the US for 9 years, half my family being US citizens, and a permanent residence in the states as well..... So I'm not trying to jump to ignorant conclusions if thats what it seems like I was doing.

#71 Rational Madman

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 07:24 AM

Hugo Chavez, Socialist president of Venezuela, is attempting to win rule by decree for a 'limited' period of time, and nationalisation of most services such as power and communication;

http://news.bbc.co.u...cas/6277379.stm

The implications of this are quite obvious. The idea that rule by decree could be granted for a limited period is absurd, and Chavez' dictatorial ambitions are fully transparent. I sincerely hope that all citizens of Venezuela who value freedom and individual rights flee while they still can. I personally am taking pains to boycott any of Chavez'-owned gas companies, including Citgo and Clarks (there probably are numerous others).

I believe that the US should cut all ties to Venezuela, including any foreign aid, and institute a ban on importation of Venezuelan goods. As of the day that Chavez is granted such powers, Venezuela can no longer be considered a free country. In this case, the UN should reject Venezuela as a member, as it should with any other non-free countries.

This is the unavoidable result of any country that falls for the trap of Socialism, or a mixed economy; it is only a matter of time. The US is clearly heading in this direction with the dangerously far left policies of the Democrats.


He may rule by decree, but his powers were gained through legitimate election victories, and an incompetent opposition.
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#72 ChromodynamicGirl

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 05:34 AM

I believe that the US should cut all ties to Venezuela, including any foreign aid

They ought to do that with every country in the world.

and institute a ban on importation of Venezuelan goods

Lol, why, so you can make life even worse for Venezuelans? Here's a tip: You don't know economics, STFU.
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#73 Rational Madman

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 02:40 AM

I believe that the US should cut all ties to Venezuela, including any foreign aid

They ought to do that with every country in the world.

and institute a ban on importation of Venezuelan goods

Lol, why, so you can make life even worse for Venezuelans? Here's a tip: You don't know economics, STFU.


That's a good point, comprehensive sanctions are generally ineffectual when the target state is illiberal, considers the cost of concession to be too great, and because it can easily absorb the costs of the sanctions through cost-shifting, and due to the comprehensive effects---and thus collateral costs---there may be a rally-around-the-flag effect that bolsters the target's capacity for resistance.

#74 Mind

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 09:02 PM

When the streets of Caracas run red with the blood of political dissidents, I will be sure to bring this thread up and remind all of you Chavez sycophants and apologists where you stood in the beginning.


Well, it did not get to that point.

Chavez talked a big game, but was never able to take full control and spread communist revolution around Latin America. As Matt mentioned earlier, the youth in Venezuela never seemed to be too enthralled with living in a dictatorship. Chavez's economic/social results were mixed. Not all bad because he gave money to the poorest of the poor, but it seemed (from a distance) that Venezuela suffered from the same problem that all communist dictatorships suffer - if you re-distribute wealth to make everyone equal, you remove incentives for most people to produce or work hard. Meanwhile, the Chavez family is reportedly worth $2 billion. Like in all communist countries, the privileged rulers win (everyone else gets to be "equal")

Some opinions on the legacy.
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#75 nowayout

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 10:31 PM

Do you have any proven example of the US attempting to overthrow a democracy after 1990?


Yes, Bush against democratically elected governments in Venezuela and Haiti and even as recently as the Obama administration's policy in support of a coup against a democratically elected government in Honduras. Not to mention American policy towards Iran (a terribly bad place, but a democracy nonetheless) and American policy towards the democratically elected Hamas-led authority in parts of Palestine. Of course ordinary Americans are completely uninformed of this:

An interview with Chomsky explains it better:

HOCHSCHARTNER: You wrote that Obama "broke ground" in supporting the Honduras coup. Explain what you meant.

CHOMSKY: I don't remember putting it that way. In earlier years, the U.S. supported coups outright or carried them out for that matter. In fact, in 2004, they carried out the coup in Haiti and in 2002 openly supported the coup in Venezuela. Obama did it indirectly. He joined the Organization of American States in criticizing the [Honduran] coup. He wouldn't call it a military coup. He kind of dragged his feet.
Almost every country, even in Europe, withdrew their ambassadors. The U.S. didn't. The U.S., of course, has enormous influence in Honduras. The military's trained by the United States. They have very close connections, but they didn't do much at first. They didn't try to use their influence. Then, as it proceeded, the Obama administration ended up essentially supporting the coup regime. The U.S. was almost the only country that recognized the elections under military rule. It was the usual support for right-wing military coups, but in a softer way than usual. That's partly a reflection of the change in power relations.

What do you mean by that?

Latin America's become a lot more independent. Take Brazil. Forty-five years ago the Kennedy administration didn't like the government in Brazil. It was a kind of mildly social democratic government not very different from [current] President Lula's. So they organized a military coup and established a neo-Nazi style national security state. That was the norm, one country after another through the 1980s. It was a monstrosity. Latin America, finally, after 500 years, is moving towards integration for the first time and paying a little attention—in some cases, like Bolivia, a lot of attention—to the needs of the poor majority, which is new. That's made the continent a little more independent of the U.S. The U.S. was kicked out of its last military base in Ecuador in September 2009. It now has seven new ones in Colombia, which is the last holdout.


Edited by viveutvivas, 08 March 2013 - 10:40 PM.

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#76 Mind

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:11 PM

Interesting (and very sad) that blood now runs in the streets AFTER Chavez has passed (his successor promises "death" to protestors): http://www.bloomberg...ory-decree.html
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#77 Mind

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 07:16 PM

 

 

When the streets of Caracas run red with the blood of political dissidents, I will be sure to bring this thread up and remind all of you Chavez sycophants and apologists where you stood in the beginning.

 

Dissenters were "crushed", imprisoned, and killed at times (as detailed in this thread), but I would have to say that the streets of Caracas did not "run red". Of that I am thankful. The dictatorship was ended through voting instead of violence: http://www.theguardi...MP=share_btn_fb

 

I don't know if the new party/government will be better, but if they get back to a market-based economy, hopefully the shortage of critical consumer goods will end.


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#78 Karl909

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 10:37 PM

I'm sorry Mind but you're intentionally twisting things or just incredibly silly. It's amusing the right called Chavez and his party a dictator until the same system elects someone they like then it's democracy....

The rich and there parties have been waging a war with the government intentionatly stock piling and creating economic chaos to undermine the Venezuela former government. The hypocrisy is insane. They have funded violence, murder, just so they can make more of a profit. It's sick!
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#79 Mind

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 11:23 PM

True.

 

Chavez and Maduro were accused of manipulating elections and shutting down media outlets which were critical of their government, but they never did completely suspend the electoral process.

 

Remember, people in communist Russia and Nazi Germany voted for their "dictators". In fact, communist party members in the USSR routinely bragged about how their voter turnout was always near 100%...and always voted for the communists...wonder why, hmmmm.



#80 Karl909

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 07:57 AM

Reported by a media who now have their representives in power... Funny that. By all independent measures Chavez was elected fairly. And the people knew that, why time after time they voted for him.

So by your logic then the new right wing government must be a dictatorship too? No, because the capitalists say it's fair, you really don't see how similar the capitalists act to the nazis and Stalinists you mention do you...
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#81 Mind

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 06:56 PM

Reported by a media who now have their representives in power... Funny that. By all independent measures Chavez was elected fairly. And the people knew that, why time after time they voted for him.

So by your logic then the new right wing government must be a dictatorship too? No, because the capitalists say it's fair, you really don't see how similar the capitalists act to the nazis and Stalinists you mention do you...

 

I don't know how good the new government will be. However, I will update this thread again at some point in the future when we know how things are turning out.


Edited by Mind, 11 December 2015 - 10:25 PM.


#82 Kalliste

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 06:15 AM

I hope they can get some toiletpaper and better oil prices soon, poor Venezuelans.


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#83 Multivitz

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 03:58 PM

Get Bernie Sanders in and watch change happen. Ignore funded media, and open your hearts to the future hope for righteous improvement.
Watch the psychopathic snake wriggle as we eat it's guts. After it's digested, it will attract the good things. The toilet paper will be the history books of our times.
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#84 Mind

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Posted 14 May 2016 - 06:52 PM

I thought the last election meant Maduro was on his way out. I guess the dictator is making his last stand. Good luck against a starving population.

 

http://www.zerohedge...state-emergency


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#85 Karl909

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Posted 15 May 2016 - 12:11 PM

Ha, he was elected, funny when libertarians throw the word dictator around essoially as the food shortages were very much caused by the dictatorship of the markets. Hiding food when people starved to drive up costs and what not. Funny lot! The democratically elected Hugo Chávez mistake and why we have ended up where we are is he didn't fully break with capitalism. It's the capitalists that destabilised the economy as a power grab, no problem with that though I'm guessing?

Edited by Karl909, 15 May 2016 - 12:12 PM.

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#86 Mind

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Posted 16 May 2016 - 04:49 PM

Saudi Arabia is an oil-rich dictatorship, like (current) Venezuela, yet they are not in dire straits. I suggest (but might be wrong) this is because they allow international corporations to drill for oil and turn a profit (same with "socialist" Norway). If I ran an oil company, I would be extremely cautious of doing business within Venezuela, employing local people, and supporting that economy, because the dictator might just decide one day to "nationalize" the company and steal my entire investment in the country.

 

Thus, Venezuela sits upon a "gold mine" of oil, yet its people suffer.

 

You might be right that, EVIL corporations and other governments are conspiring to keep products away from Venezuela, but at least some of it is that economic freedom in the country has been curtailed, from within.



#87 Karl909

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 12:09 PM

lets knock two errors off, Venezuela is not a dictorship, and was before, during and after Chavezs party a capitalist country, advanced capitalist or mixed economy, whatever you want to call it. Now I'd agree you can't really have democracy in capitalism but my point is you wouldn't be calling America, U.K, Germany etc a dictatorship. So if you wouldn't them then you shouldnt Venezuela...

On the other points I agree mostly. We live in a global world and if a country partakes in this they are at the mercy of the markets and all the other nations competing for investment. So this sort of half way in half way out is doomed to fail as like you say corporations want massive profits and stability usually helps with that!

However this in itself opens up a rather large contradiction. We are in the advanced stages of capitalism, there's barely any growth in the world, loads of money but no investment! I mean even before Chavez came along there was huge poverty in Venezuela, it's the reason that Chavez and his movement got power. The media reports it as if there wasn't huge poverty in the country before...

The point is for South America and the developing world have "come to the dance" to late. Capitalism does not play a progressive role in society anymore it merely gobels profits wherever it can find them and doesn't reinvest. Chavezs mistake was not to fully break with the system! There is no capacity left in capitalism to reform like it did post ww2, there's not the same growth boom. Instead capitalism is on a desperate race to find every last bit of growth through privatising everything under the sun, making the poor pay...

It's not really about whether corporations are "evil" or not it's about it not playing a progressive role anymore, and rather causes poverty rather then solving it...
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#88 Mind

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 11:19 AM

Venezuela in chaos. Like every other extreme command-and-control economy that has ever existed. Go ahead and blame evil corporations, or the CIA, or the insane clown posse, but I could see this collapse coming from a 1,000 miles away. It is basic economics.


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#89 Karl909

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 12:40 PM

Like the rest of South America it was of course the land of milk and honey before Chavez... the problem is they didn't go far enough. It's still capitalism (just with more intervention) why the rich were able to in flick therir economic terrorism, hoarding food, only giving the riches side of the story. Previous to Chavez the country had huge poverty, much more so then now. So that 'basic economics' wasn't so good for the majority either. Capitalism just doesn't work, regulated or not is what the evidence shows here...
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#90 Diocletian

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 06:14 PM

How many times does the communism need to fail till we learn it's not working.


Edited by Diocletian, 24 December 2016 - 06:17 PM.

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