<BJKlein> Have any of you read Geoffrey Miller ...
<BJKlein> Here's a primer: http://www.serpentfd...miller1994.html
<BJKlein> I've recently been intrigued by the idea...
<BJKlein> Evolutionary Psychology and the reason we have large brains..
<Gordon> interesting
<wall> do you think humans are still evolving?
<Gordon> of course they are
<wall> thats what I think
<wall> Micheal A was saying otherwise the other day
<observer> we might have hit a local maximum that's hard for evolution to improve.
<Ziana> the avg height has been rising over the past thousand years, for example
<Gordon> MichaelA doesn't know what he's talking about
<BJKlein> MA was probably talking about DNA and Evolution
<Gordon> just because we aren't evolving into something else doesn't mean we aren't still evolving
<BJKlein> We're about to make a gigantic leap in evolution
<Gordon> natural selection doesn't just stop
<wall> well, I was talking to him about how side effects of being immortal and how it would effect evolution
<BJKlein> in terms of intelligence evolution
<wall> thats when he started to tell me that we are no longer physically evolving
<Gordon> yes, we are
<wall> he had some good points, but I don't agree with it
<Gordon> there is no doubt about it
<Gordon> we just don't select for the same features that we used to
<wall> i wish I had that conversation logged, but I just log the channels and that was in a IM
<Gordon> err, rather, natural section doesn't select on the same things
<BJKlein> Well in terms of what Geoffrey Millers is talking about with mate selection and brain size..
<BJKlein> I think he has hit upon a very good idea.. and one that is probably correct..
<BJKlein> In that we have large brains not wholly in part because of an environmental need..
<Gordon> well, brain size would be selected for on two fronts
<BJKlein> We could survive easily with a much smaller brain..
<observer> effective brains are selected for, not necessarily large brains
<Gordon> one from being better at mating
<wall> only if we used a higher percentage of that smaller brain
<Gordon> other from women trying to expand their birth canals
<Ziana> um, you aren't referring to the dreaded "people only use 10% of their brains", are you?
<BJKlein> Miller explains that we have larger brains because we use it like a peacocks tail...
<Gordon> yes, that should have been my second reason
<Ziana> hiya
<Gordon> got mixed up with end of article stuff
<BJKlein> We show off in effect with our poetry and singing and intelligence our fitness to a mate
<observer> and that often only works if the mate is intelligent enough to understand it
<Ziana> hiya
<Mangala> hi
<BJKlein> So the more intelligent we appear to a mate the more attractive...and thus each generation will have more and more intelligence..
<observer> which is a good thing, i guess
<heliumii> just joining here, what are you refering to?
<Mangala> evolution is heading towrds a standstill tho
<BJKlein> But he also brought up another good point.. the brain is a very fragil and good indicator of health and fitness...
<wall> hmm, so the bulk of our intelligence is just for showing off
<observer> (I shouldn't have typed "i guess")
<hookysun> that's some loose evopsy, BJ
<Gordon> absolutely not
<heliumii> i thought intelligence was for gossiping
<hookysun> for?
<BJKlein> wall: I think that it is...
<Mangala> intelligent design of life will come soon
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<Gordon> we are not at an evolutionary standstill; we're just getting impatient at humans evolving slowly compared to our lifespans, so we're will to say that evolution is dead
<Mangala> evolution will continue among small creatures, and continue to influence humans in subtle ways, but we will become stronger and overall better with gene alteration and new biotechnologies
<wall> gordon: agreed
<Gordon> it's only been 20,000 years since humans even became capable of language
<BJKlein> Hooksun: http://www.serpentfd...miller1994.html here's the article if you
<BJKlein> 're interested
<hookysun> sure brain size was in part sexually selected for...
<wall> I see even more physical evolution is possible
<hookysun> momento...
* Gordon notes that even though evolution is still going on, it won't matter very shortly anyway
<Mangala> o sure evoltion always stays in tact
<Mangala> *David agrees
<wall> but if everyone becomes immortal, im not sure if they can still evolve in a natural way
<Mangala> how do u do that? (*)
<wall> im not sure if they would have to though
<hookysun> define evolution
<Gordon> evolution occurs through differential reproduction
<hookysun> ok i'm reading
<BJKlein> of course.. wall, we'll still evolve... just not biologically.
<Gordon> oh, that's what evolution is: differential reproduction
<hookysun> that's natural selection
<Mangala> we will continue to evolve always
<Mangala> evolution is nothing more...
<Mangala> than dying because you are not good enough
<hookysun> wishful thinking, M
<Mangala> so if someone is prevented from becoming immortal
<Gordon> actually, differential reproduction is just natural selection
<hookysun> whoa!
<Mangala> "evolution weeds" him out
<Gordon> since things like genetic drift and mutation aren't differential reproduction
<Mangala> brb
<hookysun> evo encompasses all these
<hookysun> and sexual selection
<Mangala> back
<wall> it seems that the only reason for evolution is to extend the life of the next generation
<hookysun> the word itself means "to turn out"
<hookysun> to?
<Mangala> not true
<Mangala> evolutions purpose is to create as many funtioning creatures as possible
<Mangala> regardless of how long they last, their ability to reproduce is paramount
<heliumii> or just a few good ones
<hookysun> life has no purpose or else who/what purposes?
<hookysun> what is the source of the will?
<Mangala> lifes purpose is to continually foster life
<heliumii> speaking of purpose... is there any point of continuing living if you will one day die?
<BJKlein> ehh, there is no purpose .. no meaning... we're just here.. that's all that we have.. no higher power or meaning..
<hookysun> sounds personal
<hookysun> known...
<BJKlein> that's the point.. we must stay alive.. that is all there is
<BJKlein> welcome heliumii
<heliumii> howdy
<Mangala> well if u knew there was no way you could survive forvere...
<Mangala> there are a number of goals you could set yourself to
<Mangala> thats what many people do
<Mangala> in reality
<Mangala> (i mean now)
<heliumii> right, like say in a hundred trillion years when the last star dies
<observer> qualia provide differential desirability...
<hookysun> what many ppl do is irrelevant
<BJKlein> most people rely upon an after life
<Mangala> i guess, but who knows how reasoning about that stage of existence acheives any ends
<hookysun> it doesn't; it's rationalization
<Mangala> religion is just another goal
<Mangala> go to heaven
<Mangala> seek your next life
<hookysun> based on a wished upon reality
<heliumii> if a sand castle will crumble eventually, why keep it up as long as possible?
<Mangala> stuff inbetween birth and death
<hookysun> wished for rather
<heliumii> for hope of eternity?
<hookysun> sandcastles are designed; ppl are not
<heliumii> designed by evolution
* Gordon is designed to be your God; bow down!
<Mangala> well we are human and we crave happiness
<Mangala> sandcastles provide happiness
<heliumii> right be we also have intelligence, and reason to overpower that need for happiness
<BJKlein> Anyway.. back to Geoffrey Miller.. he has a new book .
<Mangala> so contining happiness for as long as possible keeps the sancastle alive
<BJKlein> http://human-nature..../02/barash.html The Mating Mind
<Mangala> yea sorry bj
<BJKlein> np
<wall> when your building a sand castle is it not your goal to make it strong and hold up as long as possible?
<wall> perhaps not
<wall> but to some it is
<wall> others just want it to look real nice
<wall> its all personal goals
<Mangala> who makes a sandcastle for any other purpose than to look at how nice it is?
<wall> you have a life, and its purpose if for you to decide
<wall> I do
<wall> I like to make mine functional
<Mangala> what d u do with them?
<wall> I build moates to keep out enemys
<Mangala> but that provides happiness does it not?
<wall> tall towers so the sand people can look out far and know of any enemys comming as soon as possible
<heliumii> if you didn't remember the sandcastle, and it was gone, what was the point?
<BJKlein> heliumii are you familar with transhumanist ideas?
<Mangala> well thats a good question, how does valuing happiness do anything favorable?
<hookysun> define favorable
<Mangala> and yes i realize the backwardness of the question
<heliumii> i recognize the word, but no
<Mangala> well the point in creating sandcastles is to become happy
<hookysun> depends on builder
<Mangala> but when u forget about it, it only provided happiness for a while and then went away
<wall> i hate to use it as a cop out, but its all personal values, happiness only means as much to you as you decide it does, and the sandcastle only has a point if you decide it to have one
<BJKlein> ok... you may be interested in www.extropy.org and www.transhumanism.com
<Mangala> o, wait i know
<wall> if you decide that its pointless, then it is
<wall> if you decide it has great value....
<Mangala> happiness stops u from killing yourself
<heliumii> thanks for the tip, i'll check them out
<BJKlein> please feel free to continue the sandcastle discussion... but I have a quick question...
<Mangala> thats why evolution included it
<BJKlein> do we have any active atheist in the chat?
<heliumii> how do you define active?
<Mangala> define active
<wall> define active yes
<BJKlein> I'm planing to write a letter to a local park..
<hookysun> active agnostic
<Mangala> about
<BJKlein> www.desotocavernspark.com
<BJKlein> I went there today with susan.. and they have a lazer show...
* Gordon is completely areligious and couldn't care less whether any believes in God or not
<Gordon> or whether I believe in God or not
<BJKlein> in the show they use the word god at least 20 times
<Mangala> what about the laser?
<Mangala> well in what context?
<BJKlein> it's all about the genesis and bible story..
<wall> i created my own form of religion, isntead of believing in an imaginary higher power, I have created my own imaginary servants
<hookysun> is it publicly funded?
<Mangala> o that sux
<Mangala> it must have been boring
<BJKlein> no actually it's private
<hookysun> oooh...um
<Mangala> so it can do whatever it wants cant it?
<BJKlein> that's my question...
<hookysun> i think sooo...
<Mangala> a private company can do alot of stuff
<BJKlein> but we paid 10$ per to get into to the cave..
<hookysun> your choice
<BJKlein> and there was not warning about the Biblical nature of the show
<Mangala> well u subscribed to a private cause
<hookysun> why should they warn you?
<observer> that's the part you should complain about
<wall> if its private I don't think you can complain
<Mangala> hmmm
<observer> the fact that they didn't say that it was all about the bible
<Mangala> i guess if u found it so offnsive
<BJKlein> false advertisment...
<Mangala> what did they advertise?
<BJKlein> expecting a lazer show.. get a sermon
<Mangala> sorry
<hookysun> i'm really an agnostic, but also all about civil liberties...
<BJKlein> please no bold Mangala
<Mangala> ok now its fixed
<BJKlein> Ahh, Thank You.
<observer> should it have come with a label saying "warning, we will attempt to impose our beliefs on you"?
<wall> maybee write them a letter, telling them that what there doing is immoral because there is no warning
<BJKlein> hmm, yeh I didn't think I had much gound to complain.. it's just that they get thousands of people per year..
<hookysun> except they didn't...
<Mangala> well a judge will proboably tell you tothink about creation as a captivating story
<wall> their
* Gordon wishes he knew how to do l33t things like bold ...
<Ziana> lol
<Ziana> which client are you using?
<wall> I don't think you have any legal grounds for making them change
<Gordon> Fire (none anyone else is using unless their on OS X)
<Mangala> yea
<wall> but if you go about it good, you might have a chance at getting them to change
<BJKlein> wall: I will write a letter... im also going to consult the american atheist website..
<wall> if you convince them...
<Gordon> hmm, maybe I can if I do this
<Ziana> lol... well, try searching the help file for 'bold'
<wall> I remember reading about a group in the paper, sometihng like "freedom from religion"
<Gordon> bwhahahahahahahahaha
<wall> its a group that goes around doing stuff like that
<BJKlein> yeh, I put enough mental capital into the idea.. I need to do something tangible to help the atheist cause
<Gordon> (has anything I've written shown up bold?)
<hookysun> religion and theism are separate issues
<BJKlein> although, the likelyhood of gettin them to put money into changing the show is slim
<Ziana> gordon- nope
<Gordon> rats
<wall> bold?
<hookysun> yes wall
<wall> HAH how about underline
<wall> or italic?
<Gordon> but I could always be an asshole and send messages in a different encoding
<wall> italic doesnt work
