259 replies to this topic

[william7]

Just like knowledge is evolving in science,  knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures is evolving too.

Wouldn't this, what you say, make your current knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures handicapped or even worthless relative to the true meaning of the Scriptures? If so, what makes you thing you are in the 'right' direction? Or is it that only the understanding of some parts is evolving but not the others?

No. our knowledge and practice are not perfect yet. We're being refined like mentioned in Malachi 3:2-3.

Knowledge in all areas of both the Old and New Testaments is evolving with perfection as its objective. This is why much of what the creationists teach is nonsense when you get down to the specifics of some of their ideas. They only have the general idea that God done the creating correct. After that, their ideas go off course as to how it really happened.

[william7]

Um, actually I don't know that they do believe that the Holy Spirit teaches sincere believers... I think they believe the Bible is the word of God, and it is up to people to educate themselves. God's power has nothing to do with it (The holy spirit being the power of God, not some wierd third entity of a polytheistic religion) (Btw, they also believe Jesus is God's son, NOT God himself.)

They're right if they believe God's holy spirit is the power He uses to educate and guide His followers. They're also right to believe the Father and the Son are separate entities. The false teachers teach that the Father and the Son are one and the same entity.

But anyway, no, I won't be becoming a believe anytime soon without the evidence, and after much questing, the evidence presented is entirely dependent upon 2 prophecies, and I find neither of them compelling at all. They are both just like all other propehecies imo. Arbitrarily assigned to something which seems to fit the facts, at the expense of all other possible fits.

The Roman Empire has been a beast throughout history and it's raising up from the ashes again for its final resurrection. Carefully consider what those who have the gift of understanding prophecy are revealing. Try The Book of Revelation Unveiled, at http://www.gnmagazin...ts/RV/index.htm. The prophecies undeniably fit history like a glove.

Prophecy is an excellent and fascinating place to start a serious Bible study. It's where I started out at.

[JohnDoe1234]

God offers proof of His existence in a way that science is not capable of comprehending.

Ok, Elijah...if science cannot explain it, can you? Is it some feeling inside your head that you think is his presence?

Science may put a limitation on your perspective of life if your not careful. The most important things in life are not going to be discovered in the scientist's laboratory.

Alright then. Name one thing from the bible that has been more useful to our society than Transistors, Penicillin, and Li-Ion batteries. So, what are these "Most important things"?

Like any worthwhile branch of knowledge, you have to research and study it. The Bible is know different. If you seriously meditate on God's perfect ways and put them into practice, you'll be rewarded. Psalm 1:2; 77:12; Matthew 4:4; James 1:22-25.

Again. unless you offer explanation of his "perfect ways" we cannot connect with you. This is why your religion is failing. In a society which is slowly beginning to recover from religion, people are beginning to use their heads, and they are realizing that something that offers no explanation or validation is of little use to them.

Like the bread mentioned in Matthew 4:4 above, you cannot live on science alone. History and our current situation is proof of this.

No. You are dead wrong. Without science, we would still be living in mud huts in Africa. We would still be worshiping some sprit to bring us rain, and the people who invented christianity wouldn't have had the chance to even exist. It is because of inventive explorers (scientists) who keep this world from slowly decaying, and fading to oblivion.

[Live Forever]

God offers proof of His existence in a way that science is not capable of comprehending.

Ok, Elijah...if science cannot explain it, can you? Is it some feeling inside your head that you think is his presence?

I was getting ready to quote elijah on this as well. This is a very interesting claim. Most believers that I know claim that there is lots of evidence of God, and his creation of the world, etc. (although, when pressed, they never give good answers, but they still believe it) It is interesting that elijah is conceding this point and saying that there is no scientific proof of God. I suppose as science advances, there is exceedingly little ground for God to be in, (the "God in the gaps" argument) so it makes sense to say that science can not ever prove or disprove God. (I still contend that not being able to disprove something is a terrible reason for believing in that thing, but what ever.)

[Neurosail]

God offers proof of His existence in a way that science is not capable of comprehending.

Ok, Elijah...if science cannot explain it, can you? Is it some feeling inside your head that you think is his presence?

I was getting ready to quote elijah on this as well. This is a very interesting claim. Most believers that I know claim that there is lots of evidence of God, and his creation of the world, etc. (although, when pressed, they never give good answers, but they still believe it)

This may help explain what religious people feel:
God on the brain: is religion just a step away from mental illness?

The discoveries that are emerging from this fledgeling science are, depending on your religious views, either deeply fascinating or profoundly disturbing. They imply that the brain created God, not the other way round; that religious leaders throughout history were touched not by supreme beings but by mental illness; that moments of serenity common to ardent believers of all faiths are simply hiccups in brain chemistry. The findings suggest that our attitudes to religion are underpinned by biology — that some brains are physically built to be more receptive to divine thought, and that this explains why religion induces apathy in some and fervour in others.

The neuroscientist Vilayanur Ramachandran, who has just delivered this year’s Reith Lectures, has conducted his own fascinating experiments with temporal lobe epilepsy patients. He found they show a higher brain response to words with religious connotations than to sexually charged words, unlike the general population. For many, this has nailed the link between the temporal lobes and religious thought.

It could also explain "Glossolalia", handling snakes, foot washing in church services, and Acts 2:38 baptism. (Not the same as John 3:16 baptism!)

Ever notice that their songs repeat the same words over and over again creating a religious trance of dancing and speaking in tongues and faith healing. (And it all feels very good when your doing it, but it is a emotional high, just like drugs.)

Religion is a form of social epilepsy.

[basho]

This may help explain what religious people feel:
God on the brain: is religion just a step away from mental illness?

From the article:

God is an artefact of our evolved human minds, and that visions are symptoms of neurological abnormality. As well as Moses, experts are intrigued by St Paul, who famously encountered God in a blinding flash while on the road to Damascus, and St Teresa of Avila, who heard voices and is widely thought to have exhibited signs of schizophrenia.
...
As soon as our brains became sufficiently evolved to embrace supernatural ideas, Boyer suggests, religion spread like a cerebral virus.

We have hope then that people can be cured of religious belief. However, if you thought the people who resist vaccinations were nuts, just wait till we try to inject the faithful with the cure for religion.

But what does it say about American society that it is led by a man with a serious neurological disorder?

[crayfish]

The 'you can't disprove God' argument crops up so often, and yet is so weak.

It's correct that it impossible to formally, rationally disprove something.

All you can do is say, I looked here in this fashion and didn't see anything....

We've looked in a lot of places now.

One thing that we can do is use evidence and our perception to form opinions about the world, weighing up probabilities of what might constitute reality so that we can act in the most productive way.

For instance, I think that it is probable that the chair I am sat on exists because I can see it, touch it, smell it and if the feeling takes me, taste it. In metaphysical terms, this doesn't necessarily mean that it does exist, but it means that it is a solid enough part of my perceptual reality that I can take actions such as sitting on it and expect a reasonable return. In terms of what I can do, and what I can perceive, it makes no difference whether it exists in an absolute sense or not.

However, when we come to God...

Although a lot of highly motivated people have searched for evidence of a god's existence for millenia, no one's found any that holds up to scrutiny. A large amount of the predictions made have in fact been directly contradicted by new evidence. Despite this, many people continue to base their actions on the supposition that an anthropomorphic deity does exist - praying, going to church, starting wars, blowing themselves up and so on.

When you look at this rationally, although there is a slight remaining possibility of a deity's existence, people would be statistically much better off basing their actions on the existence of a benign star bratwurst. We haven't looked for that, so although the probability is vanishingly small that it's out there, it's a surer bet than something people have been actively searching for and failing to find for donkeys years.

[Aegist]

Although a lot of highly motivated people have searched for evidence of a god's existence for millenia, no one's found any that holds up to scrutiny.

And worse than that, any evidence which 'might' be for God, is clung to as if it is real evidence. Like in that BBC documentary Richard Dawkins did, "The Root of All Evil?" where he is at Lourdes(?) where the virgin Mary appeared, and now the Catholics believe the water is blessed. Apparently there have been 66 Miracles accepted by the church, and about two thousand unexplained cures. So there you go...there's your proof of God!!!

...Until you look at the stats. They get about 80,000 SICK people every year. And that has been going on for over 100 years. So thats millions and millions of people, and only 66 'miracles', and interestingly, none of those miracles have been any restored limbs or anything obvious like that, they have all been things which might have got better on their own (no doubt as a freak event...but we are talking statistical improbability anyway).

[Aegist]

God offers proof of His existence in a way that science is not capable of comprehending.

Well isn't that convenient? Proposition X is true, but I can't prove it to you, or even show you where to look to find proof, you just have to believe me, and then it will be true for you too.

This statement is just as true about unicorns on neptune as it is about invisible goblins sitting beside you, as it is about God. And they are all meaningless. If Science can't measure it, then it bears no consequence on our lives or our existence, and it might as well not exist. And that is the nicest thing you can say about it. The much more pragmatic thing to say about it is: It does't exist.

Science may put a limitation on your perspective of life if your not careful. The most important things in life are not going to be discovered in the scientist's laboratory.

Sounds to me like the only limitation being placed here, is your assumption about how science works. For a start, the 'laboratory' for a scientist is really 'The Universe', and secondly, Science is just about reality. And if reality is too confining for you, then fine, day dream your life away, but stop trying to cage the rest of us in your delusion.

History and our current situation is proof of this.

I think the main thing that history shows time and time again, is that any society founded on a religious belief system, is prone to start killing people for stupid reasons.

[william7]

Ok, Elijah...if science cannot explain it, can you? Is it some feeling inside your head that you think is his presence?

Sure, it's like the Scriptures say, God has hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Matthew 11:25. In other words, God more frequently reveals Himself to humble people from lowly backgrounds as a opposed to proud people possessing great intellects and great knowledge.

I feel God's presence in my life all the time.

Alright then. Name one thing from the bible that has been more useful to our society than Transistors, Penicillin, and Li-Ion batteries. So, what are these "Most important things"?

Trees, rocks, water, vegetation, and life itself. God created these things and more. Your focus on the Bible should not be so much on what God has done but on what He plans to do.

Again. unless you offer explanation of his "perfect ways" we cannot connect with you. This is why your religion is failing. In a society which is slowly beginning to recover from religion, people are beginning to use their heads, and they are realizing that something that offers no explanation or validation is of little use to them.

God's perfect ways are revealed in His perfect laws that are designed to support and maintain a perfect communal society where peace and harmony will reign and the people will achieve true happiness, great health, and a very long life.

No. You are dead wrong. Without science, we would still be living in mud huts in Africa. We would still be worshiping some sprit to bring us rain, and the people who invented christianity wouldn't have had the chance to even exist. It is because of inventive explorers (scientists) who keep this world from slowly decaying, and fading to oblivion

I think your view of science and what it has achieved is a little bit too idealistic. You fail to see the downside of science. The weapons of mass destruction, the pollution, and the dehumanizing machinery that enslaves the mind and produces death and destruction. In many cases, man was better off in primitive times with little or no science.

[william7]

We have hope then that people can be cured of religious belief. However, if you thought the people who resist vaccinations were nuts, just wait till we try to inject the faithful with the cure for religion.

But what does it say about American society that it is led by a man with a serious neurological disorder?

Here we go again. Have you guys ever heard of the Myth of Mental Illness? The medical model failed with lobotomy and psychotropics. What makes you think it's going to be any better in the future? Medical science is just as likely to produce a worse condition or negative side effect as its done in the past.

And Bush is an atheist wolf in sheeps clothing. He's really from your crowd, not mine. The great mistake you guys make is believing that everyone professing belief in God or Christ is actually sincere in his belief. This is just not the case.

[basho]

...Have you guys ever heard of the Myth of Mental Illness? The medical model failed with lobotomy and psychotropics. What makes you think it's going to be any better in the future? Medical science is just as likely to produce a worse condition or negative side effect as its done in the past.

Religion forms a powerful reality distortion field. Elijah, I know you believe what you say, but can't you accept that you may be wrong? Religion is a filter through which you perceive the world, selectively blinding you to certain facts that would diminish its influence over your mental processes.

[william7]

...Have you guys ever heard of the Myth of Mental Illness? The medical model failed with lobotomy and psychotropics. What makes you think it's going to be any better in the future? Medical science is just as likely to produce a worse condition or negative side effect as its done in the past.

Religion forms a powerful reality distortion field. Elijah, I know you believe what you say, but can't you accept that you may be wrong? Religion is a filter through which you perceive the world, selectively blinding you to certain facts that would diminish its influence over your mental processes.

Just the opposite Basho. The Bible is a potent reality enhancer. It wasn't until I acquired a significant level of Bible knowledge that I was able to see the world clearly. My mental processes were impaired without the requisite knowledge.

[Aegist]

Oh Dear God.

Bush is a christian fundamentalist. You can't keep calling everyone who doesn't act the way you want them to an atheist. It only serves to perpetuate your own delusion that only atheists are bad, and christians are good.

The Bible provided nothing. The trees water etc were all here before the Bible, and once again you ahve failed to provide any evidence for anything. You have mearly chanted your same conclusions. Why do you bother posting.... no forget that, why do we bother thinking you are capable of any rational thought? You are clearly beyond the possibility of logical discourse.

[JohnDoe1234]

Elijah... I believe that you are sincere in your believes, and I admire you for standing up for your beliefs, but if you have any hope in actually making a difference in our point of view you have to offer something that we can latch onto.

I asked for you to describe this presence you feel, but you responded with:

Sure, it's like the Scriptures say, God has hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Matthew 11:25. In other words, God more frequently reveals Himself to humble people from lowly backgrounds as a opposed to proud people possessing great intellects and great knowledge.

What... is he afraid of us? what is his reasoning for concealing himself from the ones who could understand him best? And also, if this verse was true.. then... what would that mean of Christian scientists? It would mean, either they didn't exist, They are uneducated, or not really Christian.. so that doesn't help you at all.

So, again to the feeling of God's presence... can you please explain how this feels? I know you can feel emotions, I know you can feel pain, I know you can distinguish between your different senses, so please, try to explain in some detail what this feel like to either have god talking to you or feeling his "guiding hand". Incase you feel I am mocking you, I am not. I am simply trying to understand what keeps people so attached to this belief... I certainly haven't felt this feeling.

[subjunk]

I don't think being gullible qualifies as a mental illness but it's certainly a negative trait in my opinion.

[william7]

I'm working on a thread that might help you guys see where I'm coming from.

Here's a link to an interesting website that might provide some insight too. http://members.fortu...ted/elijah3.htm

[Aegist]

elijah, we, well at least 'I' and I assume most others know exactly where you are coming from. I know that it is distinct from most other christians out there, you have a very special and particularly thorough belief in the Bible, and I actually get that. But you have dullened your mind with your belief to the point where you won't actually listen to external poitns of view, or points, or claims, or evidences, or even to requests for evidence.

You are a Bible quoting machine...even when it isn't appropriate. Your posts indicate a complete absence of mental faculties. And you readily support that attitude because 'thats what the bible tells you to do'.

Well sorry, but using non-critical-thought to argue that the Bible is right, and because the bible is right you have to follow its rules, part of which repeatedly refers to how those who simply submit without trying to question are blessed etc...that isn't an argument that will interest anyone other than the person already within the vicious circle.

You are in a vicious non-thought circle, a whirlpool if you will, and we are all sitting on the outside of this swirling vortex trying to help you see your situation. But all you can see is all of us 'maniacs' on the outside reaching in 'to get you'. You think that having us jump into the whirlpool with you will help us to understand? Well maybe it will, from your perspective, because once you're in that vicious circle, sure it all makes a lot of sense. But from this position outside of the vortex, I wouldn't ever ever want to stop that rational thought just so that I could fool myself into believing that I knew something that others didn't.

I'm not interested in pursuing any further 'where you are coming from'

[JohnDoe1234]

But you have dullened your mind with your belief to the point where you won't actually listen to external points of view, or points, or claims, or evidences, or even to requests for evidence.

Agreed. Elijah, this part that trips all of us up, conversations with you always seem one-sided, every time I request evidence or a deeper explanation you simply provide more links to verses that are just as vague as the last. If you wish for us to understand your point of view you will need to answer our specific questions, not assemble a giant resource which requires us to read more than our daily recommended dose of bullshit. That is all that it is to us man, false mythology. Our questions are almost exclusively geared for us to better understand your psychology and what causes you to believe these things, we aren't really interested in what the magical guy said 2000 years ago... just why it is so addicting to you.

We are not attacking your personality directly, this is evident because if you suddenly dropped your superstitions and embraced common sense, there would be no issue. It is your beliefs and how you present them which is causing us to react so harshly.

So please keep this in mind. The best thing you can do for your argument, and our patience is to answer the questions that we pose with your own words (That is what we do for you!). Not the bible.

[struct]

If you wish for us to understand your point of view you will need to answer our specific questions, not assemble a giant resource which requires us to read more than our daily recommended dose of bullshit.

well put!!
besides caloric restriction I try to be on, what I call, informational restriction regimen.