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Al Gore


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#61 biknut

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 01:56 AM

Summer Heat Waves - Global Warming or Just Hot Air?
By Lowell Ponte
Wednesday, Aug. 16, 2006

http://www.newsmax.c...15/184758.shtml

The mainstream media trumpets hot spells as evidence of the global warming on its political agenda. Here's some of the opposite-but-equal unusual cold it scarcely reported:

In December 2005 devastating cold chilled the Rocky Mountain West. Last Dec. 7 at West Yellowstone, Mont., the temperature fell to 45 below zero, fully six degrees colder than the previous record set in 1927, according to the National Weather Service. In Fort Collins, Colo., the mercury plunged to 37 below zero, and even in Lubbock in the Texas panhandle it dipped to only six degrees above zero.

Across the Pacific Ocean, February 2006 temperatures along Russia's Siberian coastline plummeted to 69 degrees below zero, shattering all previous cold records by six degrees. Unusual cold and snow blasted other regions of the former Soviet Union, from Moscow to Georgia along the southern beaches of the Black Sea.

Winter snowfall has been breaking records in the United States and Eurasia since March 1993's "Storm of the Century" dumped snow up to four feet deep from New York to Alabama, as TechCentralStation reported June 2. On Feb. 17-18, 2003, Boston set a new all-time storm record with 27.5 inches of snow. On Feb. 17-18, 2006, a blizzard dumped 26.9 inches of snow on New York City's Central Park, a record unequalled since the blizzard of 1888.
The climate is now measurably cooling in Eastern Europe. Even Gore in his global warming book, An Inconvenient Truth, shouts that "temperature increases are taking place all over the world" (p. 78) but in the back of the book's fine print admits that "some parts of the globe – such as northern Europe – might actually become colder" (p. 321).

We now know that the 2003 European heat wave was caused by rare events in Earth's upper atmosphere, not by global warming. Recent record snowfall, as well as 2005's brief burst of hurricanes, has been driven by known cycles in such weather phenomena, not necessarily by global warming.

Bottom line: As research scientist Dr. Nigella Hillgarth of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography near San Diego says, "One heat wave does not make global warming."

Lowell Ponte, a NewsMax.com contributing editor, is the former Roving Science Editor for Reader's Digest Magazine. He wrote The Cooling (Prentice-Hall), a study of Earth's changing climate.

#62 niner

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 02:04 AM

This article is from a link by your article. It's title is, Don't Blame Sun for Global Warming, however when reading the article on page 2 it becomes clear that there is a lot of room for doubt that scientists really have a handle on what's causing global warming and how the sun affects it. It mentions several other possibility's that are not well understood, one of which is cosmic rays. For some reason most scientists don't want to consider any other reasons and like to use the phrase, the debate is over.

http://news.national...3-sunspots.html

It was clear from the article that sunspots are not big enough to be the cause. Some scientists are grasping at straws looking for a major role for the sun in global warming, but they haven't found the smoking sun-gun yet.

"For some reason"... Do you think maybe they like to use the phrase "the debate is over" because for the vast majority of climate scientists, the debate over the connection between rising greenhouse gases and warming IS over? Any debate that remains among real scientists is around the edges.

Biknut, why do you care about global warming? What horrible consequence do you see looming if the world takes sensible steps to reduce greenhouse gases? What I see is cleaner air after we get rid of dirty coal plants and reduce our reliance on internal combusion engines. I see billions of healthcare dollars and thousands of lives saved yearly from reduced particulate pollution. I see less oil imported from the middle east, a much improved balance of trade, and new jobs and businesses related to the new clean technologies.

So what do you see? What is scaring you into trying to singlehandedly stand against scientific opinion?

#63 biknut

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 03:42 AM

So what do you see?  What is scaring you into trying to singlehandedly stand against scientific opinion?


I can assure you I'm not alone, but to answer you question. I unlike a lot of others remain open minded about global warming. I see people like Al Gore leading the charge saying things like the debate is over. Every other day a different scientist finds new evidence to debate.

I have a strong sneeking suspicion that global warming is more a political issue than a scientific one. Who's the worlds leading proponent? A scientist, or a politician? Al Gore has been a environmentalist looking for a cause since we had global cooling 30 years ago.

I usually only post articles claiming global warming is natural because they're less covered by mainstream media. I figure most people here, like yourself, are able the judge them for there merits, and besides you've apparently already seen all the articles claiming man made global warming anyway.

In my lifetime I've noticed a tendency for scientific opinion to keep changing over time. I'm pretty sure that's been going on since long before I was born.

BTW your link to the Grace satellite data was very interesting.

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#64 niner

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 04:12 AM

I can assure you I'm not alone, but to answer you question. I unlike a lot of others remain open minded about global warming. I see people like Al Gore leading the charge saying things like the debate is over. Every other day a different scientist finds new evidence to debate.

So are you saying that you don't think anything bad will happen if society proceeds on the notion that we should reduce greenhouse gases? That all this posting of right wing literature is just due to your open mind? Remember, an open mind considers both sides of the question. After examining both sides, you can settle on an answer and say OK, that's what I think is right. You don't have to keep revisiting the same old bogus arguments that everyone already knows are wrong in order to be said to have an open mind. If your mind is TOO open, your brains fall out.

I have a strong sneeking suspicion that global warming is more a political issue than a scientific one. Who's the worlds leading proponent? A scientist, or a politician? Al Gore has been a environmentalist looking for a cause since we had global cooling 30 years ago.

You bet it's political; follow the money. What company holds the record for largest profits in a year? ExxonMobil. Who gets hurt by a shift out of fossil fuels? ExxonMobil. And lots of other very very wealthy interests. Are you a wealthy Texas oilman? Does someone in your family work in the fossil fuel industry? I'm not trying to be annoying, I'm just looking for a reason why you take a position that seems to be against your self interest.

Al Gore is a very smart man. He was the first politician to see the potential of the Internet, and took major steps to get it funded. He saw the importance of global warming about two decades ago. He talked about carbon taxes back in '92; they are still probably the most effective solution the the GW problem, though we may never see them. I see a smart guy who wants to make life better for his country and the world. So what's with all the Gore hating? What horribleness do you think Gore is trying to enact? Do you think he is trying to do something that will hurt you, or your country or the world?

#65 biknut

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 04:51 AM

So are you saying that you don't think anything bad will happen if society proceeds on the notion that we should reduce greenhouse gases?  That all this posting of right wing literature is just due to your open mind?  Remember, an open mind considers both sides of the question.  After examining both sides, you can settle on an answer and say OK, that's what I think is right.  You don't have to keep revisiting the same old bogus arguments that everyone already knows are wrong in order to be said to have an open mind.  If your mind is TOO open, your brains fall out.


Right now I don't feel we can really reduce CO2 very much. I would like to see more effort made at finding alternative fuel. Where I live here in Dallas there's a nuclear power plant about 30 miles from my house. Once we have a reasonable alternative fuel then I think reducing CO2 won't be much of an issue anymore. It seems more logical to devote political energy on doing this than trying to simply cut CO2 when there's not really a good alternative at this time.

You bet it's political; follow the money.  What company holds the record for largest profits in a year?  ExxonMobil.  Who gets hurt by a shift out of fossil fuels?  ExxonMobil.  And lots of other very very wealthy interests.  Are you a wealthy Texas oilman?  Does someone in your family work in the fossil fuel industry?  I'm not trying to be annoying, I'm just looking for a reason why you take a position that seems to be against your self interest.


We both seem to think it's political, but for different reasons. I think we can agree on that. You seem to think that every article against man made global warming is right wing, but hey that's alright I think most of the others are left wing.

Al Gore is a very smart man.  He was the first politician to see the potential of the Internet, and took major steps to get it funded.  He saw the importance of global warming about two decades ago.  He talked about carbon taxes back in '92; they are still probably the most effective solution the the GW problem, though we may never see them.  I see a smart guy who wants to make life better for his country and the world.  So what's with all the Gore hating?  What horribleness do you think Gore is trying to enact?  Do you think he is trying to do something that will hurt you, or your country or the world?


Of course Al Gore thought of carbon taxes. That's the first thing that comes to mind of every Democrat. What else can we tax? I don't believe that's the answer. Like I said, lets spend on finding alternative fuels.

#66 niner

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 08:01 AM

Right now I don't feel we can really reduce CO2 very much. I would like to see more effort made at finding alternative fuel. Where I live here in Dallas there's a nuclear power plant about 30 miles from my house. Once we have a reasonable alternative fuel then I think reducing CO2 won't be much of an issue anymore. It seems more logical to devote political energy on doing this than trying to simply cut CO2 when there's not really a good alternative at this time.

We have all kinds of ways to reduce CO2! Nuclear, for starters. Wind, Hydro, Geothermal, PV. We have ethanol coming out our butts. Butanol, Biodiesel. This is all stuff that's here now. We could cut our liquid fuel use dramatically if suburban parents didn't feel the need for a Monster Truck to take junior to Chuck E. Cheese. Nobody needs to suffer in order to do this. Are you aware of what plugin hybrids are capable of? Your promotion of anti-GW wingnuts is working to maintain the status quo of coal and oil. If you want to see change, not working against it would be a good start.

We both seem to think it's political, but for different reasons. I think we can agree on that. You seem to think that every article against man made global warming is right wing, but hey that's alright I think most of the others are left wing.

The right wants to maintain the status quo. This will only benefit big money interests but will hurt guys like you and me. You seem to agree that global warming is a problem, so explain to us exactly what is "left wing" about addressing it.

#67 bgwowk

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 05:35 PM

Fossil fuels aren't dominant because of an evil establishment committed to the status quo. Get rid of all the oil companies tomorrow, and Asian economies will still build thousands of coal-fired power plants. Fossil fuels are used because they are cheap. Making serious inroads into CO2 production will cost trillions dollars. If it's gotta be done, it's gotta be done. But it won't be cheap. Little guys certainly will pay more.

#68 eternaltraveler

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 07:54 PM

Fossil fuels aren't dominant because of an evil establishment committed to the status quo.  Get rid of all the oil companies tomorrow, and Asian economies will still build thousands of coal-fired power plants.  Fossil fuels are used because they are cheap.  Making serious inroads into CO2 production will cost trillions dollars.  If it's gotta be done, it's gotta be done.  But it won't be cheap.  Little guys certainly will pay more.


but it's so easy to figure out who to blame. We can point fingers and feel all good about ourselves for figuring out the culprit.

actually doing something about the percieved problem... that's hard ;)

#69 eternaltraveler

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 08:03 PM

but it's so easy to figure out who to blame. We can point fingers and feel all good about ourselves for figuring out the culprit.


also it is very reasonable to assume, if the US were to drop it's CO2 emissions (and fossil fuel use) dramatically, that excess capacity would happily be eaten up by asian and other economies.

The *only* thing we can do that would have any effect (until fossil fuels simply run out), is prove that other forms of energy are cheaper. Unfortunately the energy sources touted by most of those in favor of reducing CO2 emissions, are also the most expensive sources of energy. Using them isn't doing anything other than subsidize asian economies.

Nuclear energy, though having high start up costs, is very cheap, and yet most of the anti-CO2 crowd is terrified of it. I expect nothing to come of this anti-CO2 movement of the west other than slowing western econonmies with more expensive energy while boosting non-western economies.

#70 niner

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 10:37 PM

Fossil fuels aren't dominant because of an evil establishment committed to the status quo.  Get rid of all the oil companies tomorrow, and Asian economies will still build thousands of coal-fired power plants.  Fossil fuels are used because they are cheap.  Making serious inroads into CO2 production will cost trillions dollars.  If it's gotta be done, it's gotta be done.  But it won't be cheap.  Little guys certainly will pay more.

but it's so easy to figure out who to blame. We can point fingers and feel all good about ourselves for figuring out the culprit.

actually doing something about the percieved problem... that's hard


OK, at least these reasons for not wanting to reduce greenhouse gases are rational. I also think that they are wrong. Someone has looked at the economics of doing something about GW, (sorry, I don't have the ref) and their conclusion was that doing nothing would cost trillions. The consequences of GW will be costly. On the other hand, there is very much that we can do now that is not costly, and is sometimes cheaper. Raising our CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) standards, for example would cost little if anything, and would save consumers a fortune in fuel costs. A number of companies have already reworked their processes to reduce carbon, and lo and behold, many of them have actually SAVED money because they reduced their energy costs. I can now buy a compact fluorescent bulb for between $1.50-$2.00. Each one of these over its 7 year life will save me around 50 bucks in energy and bulb replacement costs.

I don't think we have to worry about putting ourselves at a disadvantage to Asia. China is already taking serious steps to deal with their carbon output. Their auto fuel economy standards are stricter than our own. If we are the ones who develop clean technology, we can sell it to the rest of the world. If we listen to the right and do nothing, eventually we will be buying that technology from Asia. Compare Toyota and GM for the consequences of a lack of vision.

The thing that IS going to trash our economy is continuing to run a massive trade deficit. Much of that trade deficit is from the oil that we buy. I follow the currency markets, and I can tell you that some people have made a lot of money from the fall of the US dollar. Those of you in other countries know what I'm talking about. All of us who have dollar assets are being hurt by this; it is a hidden tax that the wealthiest Americans know how to dodge.

#71 bgwowk

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 11:51 PM

China is already taking serious steps to deal with their carbon output.  Their auto fuel economy standards are stricter than our own.

I don't know how that can be said when China is increasing CO2 output at a faster rate than any country in world, bringing new coal-fired plants online at a rate of one per week. Fuel economy-- even doing away with automobiles entirely --barely begins to address the problem. Improving fuel economy and using different light bulbs are practically token gestures the overall scheme of things.

If human-produced CO2 is indeed leading to a climate crisis, then you've got to look quantitatively at what is actually producing the CO2. You've got to change the basic way that energy is produced, and do it on a massive international scale. Reducing a little bit here and there, and clamping down on some countries but others, won't solve the problem.

I suspect Elrond may be right that no political solution exists, and the problem won't be solved until scarcity finally prices fossil fuels out of the energy market. If climate sensitivity is really as high as climate scientists claim, then that's a real problem because there is enough cheap coal around to still last hundreds of years.

I agree with you about the trade deficit.

#72 eternaltraveler

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 11:51 PM

I don't think we have to worry about putting ourselves at a disadvantage to Asia. China is already taking serious steps to deal with their carbon output. Their auto fuel economy standards are stricter than our own. If we are the ones who develop clean technology, we can sell it to the rest of the world. If we listen to the right and do nothing, eventually we will be buying that technology from Asia. Compare Toyota and GM for the consequences of a lack of vision.


all of that is all well and good but it doesn't matter if we improve dramatically with our energy efficiency (well of course it matters, doing the same for less money always makes sense). The energy use of the world certainly is not going to fall. China can be fuel efficient till the cows come home but the extra hundreds of millions of people they are adding to the power consumption market is going to more than offset that and anything we can do either. Same with India.

At best we might be able to slow the rate of energy usage increase a bit. Talk about slashing energy usage on the world as a whole is nonsense.

Anyway I'm not really arguing with you because I'm on your side. I support the transition from the barbarism of using chemical energy when something so dramatically superior as nuclear energy exists. Everyone go tell your hippie Gore loving friends that if they want to make a difference they should be pushing for a nuclear infrastructure. None of this replacing billions of barrels of oil with windmills crap ;))

Once it isn't so politically impossible to move in the direction of a nuclear infrastructure then you might actually end up getting the advances you seek, but not a moment before.

#73 eternaltraveler

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 11:54 PM

I don't know how that can be said when China is increasing CO2 output at a faster rate than any country in world, bringing new coal-fired plants online at a rate of one per week. Fuel economy-- even doing away with automobiles entirely --barely begins to address the problem. Improving fuel economy and using different light bulbs are practically token gestures the overall scheme of things.


that too

#74 niner

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 05:32 AM

I don't know how that can be said when China is increasing CO2 output at a faster rate than any country in world, bringing new coal-fired plants online at a rate of one per week. Fuel economy-- even doing away with automobiles entirely --barely begins to address the problem. Improving fuel economy and using different light bulbs are practically token gestures the overall scheme of things.

China is doing more than we are to reduce GHG emission per person, or unit of output, than we are. We (the US) are 5% of the world population but we emit 25% of the GH gas. It will take China a while to get to where we are; they may never get there depending on what we and they do. Because we are the ones who have put most of the CO2 in the air over the last hundred years, we have a moral obligation to do something about it, regardless of what China does. The Asia argument can be turned around: Why should China do anything about CO2 if the largest emitter in the world (us) is not willing to do anything?

If human-produced CO2 is indeed leading to a climate crisis, then you've got to look quantitatively at what is actually producing the CO2. You've got to change the basic way that energy is produced, and do it on a massive international scale. Reducing a little bit here and there, and clamping down on some countries but others, won't solve the problem.

I'm not talking about a little bit here and there. Transport in the US is one third of CO2 emissions and is presently increasing. We could make a substantial dent in that by 2015 without economic disruption. Electricity generation is a huge source of GHG; the fraction of that electricity that goes to lighting is non trivial. Switching the majority of incandescents to modern fluorescents is in no way a token gesture, it's huge. For those who think that alternative sources of energy are all fluff, consider this: One of Warren Buffett's companies has built a wind farm in Iowa that produces slightly less than half a gigawatt. That is a serious, industrial scale power plant, and Warren Buffett does not invest in losing propositions. The venture capital community is all over clean energy. This stuff is going to make someone a lot of money. No one is proposing "shivering in the dark" or driving ridiculous little golf carts.

I suspect Elrond may be right that no political solution exists, and the problem won't be solved until scarcity finally prices fossil fuels out of the energy market. If climate sensitivity is really as high as climate scientists claim, then that's a real problem because there is enough cheap coal around to still last hundreds of years.

Political solutions do exist, all over the world. Up to now there has been an extreme lack of leadership on GW at the US federal level. Bush only recently admitted that GW exists. At the state level, lots of things are happening. At the moment, that is where the leadership is. If you look at the rest of the world, there is a lot being done.

#75 niner

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 05:54 AM

Anyway I'm not really arguing with you because I'm on your side. I support the transition from the barbarism of using chemical energy when something so dramatically superior as nuclear energy exists. Everyone go tell your hippie Gore loving friends that if they want to make a difference they should be pushing for a nuclear infrastructure. None of this replacing billions of barrels of oil with windmills crap

I'm pro-nuclear, and a lot of environmentalists are as well. To characterize everyone that wants to do something about GW as a "hippy Gore lover" is not helpful, though. You are demonizing a lot of people that you know nothing about. See Warren Buffet on the windmills. We should not underestimate the power of new technology to help with the GW problem. New developments in nanostructured lithium ion batteries and high voltage ultracapacitors are going to radically alter the possibilities in the transport arena within about 5 years. A startup that I have been following which is backed by some very serious money has another technology that is going to be absolutely game changing. If anyone wants to learn about what's coming, there are a lot of energy related blogs that are good. Some I like are http://thefraserdoma...pad.com/energy/ and http://www.greencarcongress.com/

#76 bgwowk

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 04:40 PM

If you are heading toward a cliff a 60 MPH, applying brakes to slow to 40 MPH is not going to solve the problem. And that's all improved auto efficiency, switching to fluorescent lights, and country-selective treaties are going to do. To the extent that CO2 production is a real problem, the time people spend talking about SUVs, light bulbs, the need to rein in the U.S., and the need for personal sacrifice instead of talking about alternative methods of energy production (including nuclear) is part of the problem, not the solution.

#77 niner

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 06:32 PM

If you are heading toward a cliff a 60 MPH, applying brakes to slow to 40 MPH is not going to solve the problem. And that's all improved auto efficiency, switching to fluorescent lights, and country-selective treaties are going to do. To the extent that CO2 production is a real problem, the time people spend talking about SUVs, light bulbs, the need to rein in the U.S., and the need for personal sacrifice instead of talking about alternative methods of energy production (including nuclear) is part of the problem, not the solution.

You're making it sound like we have to stop ALL CO2 production. That's ridiculous. We need to stabilize growth in GH gases then dial it back a little. You are arguing that because we can't stop ALL CO2 production, we should do NOTHING? That encouraging sensible policy is "part of the problem"? How in the world can you justify that statement? And who is talking about "personal sacrifice"? Not me. If your electricity comes from a source other than coal, but it is still reliably there every day, where's the sacrifice? If the next time you go shopping for a car, you find to your surprise that the new ones are getting a lot better gas mileage than they used to, is that a sacrifice? And why all the sensitivity about "the need to rein in the US?" You are acting like everyone is unfairly picking on you. GW is a worldwide problem, and it requires worldwide solutions. No one is talking about letting China and India do whatever they want forever. Under the now ancient Kyoto protocol, China's "economic catchup period" ends several years from now. The US is still the biggest polluter, and at the federal level we haven't done sh*t. Do you think that the rest of the world should carry all the weight so you can drive a Hummer?

#78 xanadu

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 07:12 PM

Very well said, niner.

#79 Karomesis

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 09:14 PM

actually doing something about the percieved problem... that's hard wink.gif


it sure as hell is.

I love this global warming stuff, because it makes my sales process that much easier. :)

so yeah, basically, keep driving hummers, breathing, deforesting, and anything else that makes the senate/congress/white house pass energy saving bills [thumb]


To the extent that CO2 production is a real problem, the time people spend talking about SUVs, light bulbs, the need to rein in the U.S., and the need for personal sacrifice instead of talking about alternative methods of energy production (including nuclear) is part of the problem, not the solution.


indeed Brian, although you forgot to mention LED's. flourescent and HID lighting is going the way of the dinosaur, LED's are THE future of lighting. [glasses]

lighting accounts for approx 8% of total US energy usage per year, somewhere around 10 quads (10 quadrillion BTU's). In very simplified terms, LED's as of right now are able to demonstrably lower the energy consumption in the US alone by more than 2 quads per year. Which is by the way an EXTREMELY conservative estimation.

news like this

http://today.reuters...pc=66&type=qcna

means $$$$.
:)

Edited by karomesis, 04 March 2007 - 09:54 PM.


#80 bgwowk

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 04:59 AM

We need to stabilize growth in GH gases then dial it back a little.

Really? Is that what climate scientists are saying? Do you have a reference for that?

You are arguing that because we can't stop ALL CO2 production, we should do NOTHING?

No, that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if major reductions in CO2 production are required to prevent a climate catastrophe, then more of the political and economic attention currently going toward token reduction measures needs to be redirected toward achieving serious reductions. All conservation does is buy a little time. You've got to go after generation technology. Generation technology, not consumption, is the real problem, and only changing generation technology will bring a real solution.

There is a certain kind of political outlook devoted to lowered expectations-- less economic growth, less wealth, less energy use, less long lives, less everything, especially if you have more than someone else. What burns me is that the global warming issue has become a hobby horse for many with this outlook. They use global warming as an argument that people must settle for less.

It would be refreshing if someone said for a change that industrializing the world, and bringing long life and prosperity to all, is going to require LOTS of energy; way more energy than the world is using now. We need robust world economic growth, and energy growth to match. We need to increase energy use and production, and do it in ways that are sustainable.

Along the way people will and are finding ways to use energy more efficiently. People will even make and save money doing so. That's great, but efficient use is a second-order consideration. Producing more and better energy is what's really needed.

Edited by bgwowk, 05 March 2007 - 05:46 AM.


#81 biknut

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 05:14 AM

Dig this niner. What oil company is behind this one? :)

http://www.lse.co.uk...ims_documentary

'Global Warming Is Lies' Claims Documentary

Sunday, 4th March 2007, 11:04

Accepted theories about man causing global warming are "lies" claims a controversial new TV documentary.

‘The Great Global Warming Swindle’ - backed by eminent scientists - is set to rock the accepted consensus that climate change is being driven by humans.

The programme, to be screened on Channel 4 on Thursday March 8, will see a series of respected scientists attack the "propaganda" that they claim is killing the world’s poor.

Even the co-founder of Greenpeace, Patrick Moore, is shown, claiming African countries should be encouraged to burn more CO2.

Nobody in the documentary defends the greenhouse effect theory, as it claims that climate change is natural, has been occurring for years, and ice falling from glaciers is just the spring break-up and as normal as leaves falling in autumn.

A source at Channel 4 said: "It is essentially a polemic and we are expecting it to cause trouble, but this is the controversial programming that Channel 4 is renowned for."

Controversial director Martin Durkin said: "You can see the problems with the science of global warming, but people just don’t believe you – it’s taken ten years to get this commissioned.

"I think it will go down in history as the first chapter in a new era of the relationship between scientists and society. Legitimate scientists – people with qualifications – are the bad guys.

"It is a big story that is going to cause controversy.

"It’s very rare that a film changes history, but I think this is a turning point and in five years the idea that the greenhouse effect is the main reason behind global warming will be seen as total bollocks.

"Al Gore might have won an Oscar for ‘An Inconvenient Truth’, but the film is very misleading and he has got the relationship between CO2 and climate change the wrong way round."

One major piece of evidence of CO2 causing global warming are ice core samples from Antarctica, which show that for hundreds of years, global warming has been accompanied by higher levels of CO2 in the atmosphere.

In ‘The Great Global Warming Swindle’ Al Gore is shown claiming this proves the theory, but palaeontologist Professor Ian Clark claims in the documentary that it actually shows the opposite.

He has evidence showing that warmer spells in the Earth’s history actually came an average of 800 years before the rise in CO2 levels.

Prof Clark believes increased levels of CO2 are because the Earth is heating up and not the cause. He says most CO2 in the atmosphere comes from the oceans, which dissolve the gas.

When the temperature increases, more gas is released into the atmosphere and when global temperatures cool, more CO2 is taken in. Because of the immense size of the oceans, he said they take time to catch up with climate trends, and this ‘memory effect’ is responsible for the lag.

Scientists in the programme also raise another discrepancy with the official line, showing that most of the recent global warming occurred before 1940, when global temperatures then fell for four decades.

It was only in the late 1970s that the current trend of rising temperatures began.

This, claim the sceptics, is a flaw in the CO2 theory, because the post-war economic boom produced more CO2 and should, according to the consensus, have meant a rise in global temperatures.

The programme claims there appears to be a consensus across science that CO2 is responsible for global warming, but Professor Paul Reiter is shown to disagree.

He said the influential United Nations report on Climate change, that claimed humans were responsible, was a sham.

It claimed to be the opinion of 2,500 leading scientists, but Prof Reiter said it included names of scientists who disagreed with the findings and resigned from the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and said the report was finalised by government appointees.

The CO2 theory is further undermined by claims that billions of pounds is being provided by governments to fund greenhouse effect research, so thousands of scientists know their job depends on the theory continuing to be seen as fact.

The programme claims efforts to reduce CO2 are killing Africans, who have to burn fires inside their home, causing cancer and lung damage, because their governments are being encouraged to use wind and solar panels that are not capable of supplying the continent with electricity, instead of coal and oil-burning power stations that could.

Greenpeace co-founder Patrick Moore is shown saying: "Environmentalists have romanticised peasant life, but this is anti-human.

"They are saying the world’s poorest people should have the world’s most expensive form of form of energy – really saying they can’t have electricity."

Gary Calder, a former editor of New Scientist, is featured in the programme, and has just released a book claiming that clouds are the real reason behind climate change.

‘The Chilling Stars’ was written with Danish scientist Henrik Svensmark who published a scientific paper, claiming cosmic rays cause clouds to form, reducing the global temperature. The theory is shown in the programme.

Mr Calder said: "Henrik Svensmark saw that cloudiness varies according to how many atomic particles are coming in from exploded stars - when there are more cosmic rays, there are more clouds.

"However, solar winds bat away many of the cosmic rays and the sun is currently in its most active phase, which would be an explanation for global warming.

"I am a science journalist and in my career I have been told by eminent scientists that black holes do not exist and it is impossible that continents move, but in science the experts are usually wrong.

"For me this is a cracking science story – I don’t come from any political position and I’m certainly not funded by the multinationals, although my bank manager would like me to be.

"I talk to scientists and come up with one story, and Al Gore talks to another set of scientists and comes up with a different story.

"So knowing which scientists to talk to is part of the skill. Some, who appear to be disinterested, are themselves getting billions of dollars of research money from the government.

"The few millions of dollars of research money from multinationals can’t compare to government funding, so you find the American scientific establishment is all for man-made global warming.

"We have the same situation in Britain The government’s chief scientific advisor Sir David King is supposed to be the representative of all that is good in British science, so it is disturbing he and the government are ignoring a raft of evidence against the greenhouse effect being the main driver against climate change."

The programme shows how the global warming research drive began when Margaret Thatcher gave money to scientists to ‘prove’ burning coal and oil was harmful, as part of her drive for nuclear power.

Philip Stott, professor emeritus of biogeography at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London , who also features in the film warned the issue was too complex to be down to one single factor, whether CO2 or clouds.

He said: "The greenhouse effect theory worried me from the start because you can’t say that just one factor can have this effect.

"The system is too complex to say exactly what the effect of cutting back on CO2 production would be, or indeed of continuing to produce CO2.

"It’s ridiculous to see politicians arguing over whether they will allow the global temperature to rise by 2C or 3C."

Mr Stott said the film could mark the point where scientists advocating the greenhouse effect theory, began to lose the argument.

He continued: "It is a brave programme at the moment to give excluded voices their say, and maybe it is just the beginning.

"At the moment, there is almost a McCarthyism movement in science where the greenhouse effect is like a puritanical religion and this is dangerous."

In the programme Nigel Calder says: "The greenhouse effect is seen as a religion and if you don’t agree, you are a heretic.

He added: "However, I think this programme will help further debate and scientists not directly involved in global warming studies may begin to study what is being said, become more open-minded and more questioning, but this will happen slowly."

#82 biknut

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 05:24 AM

"The greenhouse effect is seen as a religion and if you don’t agree, you are a heretic.

This is so frickin true.

#83 xanadu

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 09:41 PM

http://www.climatehotmap.org/

The map of early warning signs clearly illustrates the global nature of climate changes. In its 2001 assessment, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) concluded that, �an increasing body of observations gives a collective picture of a warming world and other changes in the climate system."

While North America and Europe—where the science is strongest—exhibit the highest density of indicators, scientists have made a great effort in recent years to document the early impacts of global warming on other continents. Our map update reflects this emerging knowledge from all parts of the world.

Although factors other than climate may have intensified the severity of some of the events on the map, scientists predict such problems will increase if emissions of heat-trapping gases are not brought under control.

#84 Mind

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 10:03 PM

Al Gore is a very smart man.


Not sure if this is true. From what I have heard, he received a D in his first environmental class at Harvard College and a C+ in a second course. On entrance exams apparently he only scored about 50% in physics and chemistry and he almost failed the only economics class he took.

He excelled in his political courses...of course.

Here is a blog about Algore's carbon offset purchases. (probably funded by Exxon...right niner?) Talk about profiting off of the greenhouse issue. Gore is basically buying carbon offsets from himself...and to top it all off, the more he scares people the richer he gets. Talk about hypocrisy and conflict of interest.

Instead of laughing at alternative theories, AGW theorists/proponents should be trying to quantify the effects of solar changes and cosmic radiation. Even if it only contributes a small percentage to the overall warming, it will make their model predictions of the future much better, and they will be less likely to get egg on their face. Instead of immediate ridicule of any alternative theories, they should try to bring some of these people into the discussion.

#85 Mind

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 10:08 PM

I'm just looking for a reason why you take a position that seems to be against your self interest.


Not sure if it is totally against human self-interest. On the macroscale, humans have quite well with warmer weather. This was true during the medeival warm period and is true now. Contrary to the "end of the world" scenarios that have been preached consistently every day for a hundred years, humans are doing pretty well....again "on the macro scale". The population has gone up, yet as a percentage of population, hunger and poverty have gone down in recent decades (according to the UN and IMF).

#86 lucid

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 11:10 PM

Well, after watching An Inconvenient Truth, I found that the movie was almost as much about Gore as it was about global warming. Gore is a politician. period.

I loved all of the clips of Gore looking pensive. I was really thinking about making a youtube movie just showing the parts of AIT that are about Gore. (He also drove an SUV to his farm which I found funny, like seriously Gore, you are making a documentary about Global Warming, DONT DRIVE AN SUV).

What is important here is this:

There is a difference between Gore and environmental policies.

Apparently there are no good figure heads for environmental policies besides Gore which I find unfortunate. Nader is just as bad.

The solutions to the problem aren't really that complicated. Good policies handle environmental damage the way any decent economist would recommend: Make people pay for environmental externalities in the most efficient way possible: Tax causes of pollution produced by the general public: oil, coal, chemicals, etc... Make fees for business entities creating pollution other than normal use of afore mentioned products. The amount of these fees would be equal to approximately the cost of cleaning up the amount of pollution produced by the consumption of said good minus an offset accounting for the amount of pollution naturally cleaned by the land in the country or region enacting the policy. Proceeds from such legislation would go towards cleaning the pollution.

The complicated part of this policy is making sure that it is implemented on a global scale, If it is just implemented in the USA then we would be at an even bigger disadvantage as far as industrial production goes. However from what I have read, the Us is best described as an obstacle to efforts to make such global policies. It certainly isn't an advocate.

The big thing that we need to change in this country is our media system. All political discussion is more or less retarded. There is little talk of substance most discussions of an issue are only a couple minute blurbs. Every discussion or argument should have graphs and figures, these things are important to public policy and I choose to believe the population can understand them. I guess I can say good job gore in this respect, he actually talked about some numbers, but he is still a slimy politician. Cheers.

#87 Mind

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 11:14 PM

Lucid, instead of taxing polluting businesses I would rather see tax breaks for businesses and individuals who adopt or produce cleaner energy or purchase energy saving equipment/appliances. Make all clean energy purchases and production completely tax deductible. I favor using the carrot instead of the stick.

#88 lucid

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 11:38 PM

Well tax breaks are a lot harder (and more costly to enforce) than the simplest solution which is taxing the actual pollution causing products like oil, natural gas, chemicals, coal, etc... This works very well for the general population and requires relatively little paper work.

For more obscure pollution caused by big companies, it makes more sense to actually measure the pollution produced and associate fees with that. In terms of limiting production of pollution, I would have to crunch some numbers which I don't have to determine the different effects of the carrot and the stick. What I do know is who would bear the burden for the various methods. With the carrot the population would bear the cost of a) paying the companies for the tax break b) cleaning up the pollution. With the stick method, the company pays one way or the other for pollution they produce which will translate in to higher cost of products for customers. So the population will indirectly be burdened by the cost either way.

I know for the general public, the stick will work better (everyone hates paperwork). I don't know about for businesses though.

#89 niner

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 02:26 AM

Dig this niner. What oil company is behind this one?


Oh, a "Television Documentary"!! Well, then it must be true.

#90 niner

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 02:49 AM

Al Gore is a very smart man.

Not sure if this is true. From what I have heard, he received a D in his first environmental class at Harvard College and a C+ in a second course. On entrance exams apparently he only scored about 50% in physics and chemistry and he almost failed the only economics class he took.

He excelled in his political courses...of course.

I would have to see his entire transcript to know if he was, ya know, a dope. I base my evaluation of his intelligence on his policies, both in and out of office, like his support for building Internet infrastructure before most people had even heard of it. I'm not sure that he is such a great politician though. If he was, he would be president now.

Here is a blog about Algore's carbon offset purchases. (probably funded by Exxon...right niner?) Talk about profiting off of the greenhouse issue. Gore is basically buying carbon offsets from himself...and to top it all off, the more he scares people the richer he gets. Talk about hypocrisy and conflict of interest.

It is idiotic to think that Gore is hyping global warming in order to enrich himself. If all he cared about was money, there are plenty of corporate boards he could sit on.

Instead of laughing at alternative theories, AGW theorists/proponents should be trying to quantify the effects of solar changes and cosmic radiation. Even if it only contributes a small percentage to the overall warming, it will make their model predictions of the future much better, and they will be less likely to get egg on their face. Instead of immediate ridicule of any alternative theories, they should try to bring some of these people into the discussion.

AGW theorists have looked at this stuff. They can't be expected to respond to every recycled claim made by every ignorant right wind ideologue that comes down the pike.

I'm just looking for a reason why you take a position that seems to be against your self interest.

Not sure if it is totally against human self-interest. On the macroscale, humans have quite well with warmer weather. This was true during the medeival warm period and is true now. Contrary to the "end of the world" scenarios that have been preached consistently every day for a hundred years, humans are doing pretty well....again "on the macro scale". The population has gone up, yet as a percentage of population, hunger and poverty have gone down in recent decades (according to the UN and IMF).

OK, so I take it you are in the "Global warming will be good for us" school. And you are basing this on your expectation that the future behavior of the metastable climate system, rife with feedback loops, can be reasonably extrapolated based on economic development of the recent past? I guess that's one way to look at it.




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