76 replies to this topic

[Kalepha]

This is a fascinating discussion.

[Clifford Greenblatt]

I will very shortly be without a computer for the next few days so I will scribble a few hasty comments here.
Suppose the hive already exists and you are a very tiny part of it that is unaware of the whole? Suppose nature itself is just part of a greater reality and its laws are just a part of a higher system of laws?
Concerning FTL response of quantum entangled systems, suppose Alice is influencing the quantum state of an atom that Bob is holding some distance away. If Bob attempts to extract information from the atom, then entanglement will be lost. The apparent instantaneous link between Alice’s atom and Bob’s atom may really be a case of waves traveling backward in time rather than traveling at infinite speed.

[Clifford Greenblatt]

Clifford, perhaps I've applied the wrong definiton of hive mind, I did not intend it to mean a collective consciousness containing multiple individuals. The mind I refer to would originate from one person and expand across universes as substrate requirements increased.

Spanning a growing number of universes would extend a person’s life span in terms of total time lived just as well as if the person could live forever in a single universe. However, we would still have the problem of the person dying in old universes unless this is not regarded as a problem because the person would be content with the knowledge that he will always be alive in new universes.

Though a universe-simulation of ever increasing substrate (with an infinite upper limit), spanning an ever increasing number of universes could contain an ever increasing number of minds. This simulation could exist forever, and the universe simulated within it's substrate would be governed by entirely amenable laws of physics. Even if the universes containing this simulation have immutable unalterable physical laws.

Would the essence of the person be preserved by the simulation or would the simulation be something much different from the original person? On the other hand, does the simulation apply to knowledge and experience to which the person has access rather than to the fundamental core of the person? If so, then where would the fundamental core of the person exist and would it be duplicated in every universe?

Regarding the fixed finite rate of communication within the ever-increasing substrate I spoke of in an earlier post, the simulation would seem to become increasingly lethargic from the perspective of the universes containing it. This wouldn't necessarily pose a problem because the thought processes of the minds in the simulation would slow concurrently and to the same extent as the rest of the simulated universe. Therefore, the minds would not percieve a slow down. As described before, the latency of the simulation would approach infinity as time approached infinity.

How would such a mind communicate with itself between universes? Assuming that the mind could be contained in a single universe that is eternally expanding, would the essential core of the mind be duplicated in many places or would it be in a central location? The problem with a central location is vulnerability of the essential core to accidents. If the essential core is duplicated in many places, then it would be like multiple duplicates of the person. Old duplicates would eventually die in cosmic accidents and be replaced by new duplicates. The large scale communication would just be a way of assuring the duplicates that they are a single person that will continue to live even as segments of the person perish in cosmic accidents, somewhat like a person continues to live even as many of the person’s cells die and are replaced with new cells.

The idea of using an eternally expanding universe as an infinite, single universe substrate has the problem of correlation loss over vast amounts space-time. Random duplicates can traverse infinite space-time but I do not think that the laws of entropy would permit correlated entities or events to traverse infinite space-time. Even if an infinite substrate could be created by generating an exponentially growing number of universes, I do not think that communication between universes would be possible unless wormholes between them are kept open. Even if the wormholes are kept open, individual universes would eventually decay and correlation between universes would gradually fade away even with much intelligent effort to prevent this. Most intelligent people are not concerned with preserving a lot of trivial childhood memories when they can move on to newer and more exciting things.

Yes. I also realize FTL communication would pose problems for causality.

Waves traveling backwards in time pose no problem for causality. This is why quantum entanglement does not violate causality. The problem is posed when an attempt is made to send information faster than light. Quantum entanglement does not permit this to happen because information encoded in one particle cannot be extracted from the other particle without the aid of classical messages that are limited by the speed of light.

[manowater989]

I would just like to take this opportunity to remind you, Cosmos, that the single-person-hive that you intend to mean was originally my proposal. Each new copy-peice, or "cell", as someone mentioned, exactly as I consider it, would contain a copy of the original core person, however, the overall-hive person would be composed of a very high number of such cells. These cells would not ideally die in old universes but instead escape, as you said, probably through wormholes. I think this concept has become somewhat muddled- if some of the cells did die, it would not pose any greater of a threat to the person's overall being than losing cells every day that are replaced by new ones does to you now. Also, is that true that information can't be extracted from entangled particles without destroying the connection? I had heard something to that intent but wasn't sure if it was true. Is there no way to overcome this? Oh well, even if there isn't, what I propose could still be accomplished by other transmitting means.

[manowater989]

Well, is it not reasonable to assume that with that much processing power, all the data could be backed up globally? i.e. as you say, everything would be redundant, so redundant, with backups on top of backups on top of backups, that irrevocable loss of much important data would be unlikely. even if some was lost, it would be akin to an injury, and not death. The hive-person's life would go on.

[Clifford Greenblatt]

The multiverse spanning universe-simulation would not require quantum entanglement if wormholes could be maintained between universes. Though how many could be maintained between two universes? My concern is that there would be a significant bottleneck on information traffic between universes.

This is certainly of great interest. The article about escaping from the universe seems to permit only very tiny seeds to get through the wormhole. I do not know how those tiny seeds could become a spaceship that could land on some moon. I wonder why there was no suggestion about sending very large entities through the wormhole. One problem may be that millions of years would be required just to let the new universe cool enough for anything to exist in it without being vapourised. If you could wait the millions of years for sufficient cooling, why send in tiny seeds? Why not make the wormhole large enough to transport anything you want in and out of it? Another problem is in knowing what conditions await anything that enters the wormhole. Will the physical constants of the child universe be compatible with materials sent into the wormhole? Will there be any such thing as stars, planets, and moons in the child universe?

[manowater989]

Maybe, maybe not. All that we currently know about the fundamental composition of existence and the make-up of space time seems to indicate that other universes would, or, certainly, at least, could, have different physical laws than this one. Judging from this, it seems likely that if we had enough control to be able to germinate a new universe to come into existence, we could also tailor it's properties to suit our needs. If you believe in string theory, as I do, it all comes down to the basics: everything is either space-time (existence) or not (non-existence). Of the space-time, it is either folded or vibrating (a string) or not (just flat s/t). All matter and energy is made of these strings, so space-time is the fundamental currency of reality, and control of it is effectively control, period.

[Clifford Greenblatt]

As long as the universe permits information processing, could it not be put to use by a universe-simulator seeking to have it's substrate span the multiverse? If physical constants differ among universes would some, capable of information processing intra-universally, be unable to effectively share that information with substrate inter-universally?

The trick would be in establishing any kind of system in another universe having different physical constants. If a probe is sent into the child universe and the atoms that compose it become unstable or change significantly in essential physical properties then how could the probe perform any useful function?

[Clifford Greenblatt]

Cosmos-
The information bottleneck that you mentioned is another interesting issue. Unless there is a hugh number of wormholes connecting the universes, there would be a long transit time for data to propagate from various parts of a universe to a wormhole.