23 replies to this topic

[boily]

Been doing a bit of reading on Nattokinase and Enzymes, and stumbled across a product called Neprinol.

http://www.biomediclabs.com/neprinol

Sounds like an awesome product. Any thoughts? Testimonials are incredible! Is an expenisive supplement.

Nattokinase keeps on popping up as well, also a relatively expensive product, but sold reasonably at Iherb:

http://www.iherb.com...s&pid=DRB-00125

Comparing the 2 supplements for potency, the natto has 2000 FU(fibrinolytic units) of enzyme activity per capsule, where the neprinol has a massive 15000 FU per capsule.

Are these supplements worthwhile? I'm seriously considering adding them into my regimen.....

[mike250]

I thought these were more appropiate if you have varicose veins or something similar. what are you planning to use them for?

[edward]

I am really skeptical. Most enzymes won't do any good past the digestive system as most are protein like compounds that get broken down themselves and never absorbed in their actual form. Maybe if you injected the stuff but orally I dont think it will do anything.

[mike250]

is this the case with serraptase as well?

[mike250]

is there any link to varicose veins in particular? I know that serraptase is good for scar tissue.

[boily]

what are you planning to use them for?

Improvement of digestion would be the main reason for enzymes. Natto could be a useful circulation enhancer, blood pressure, dissolving fibrin, cholesterol, joint pain, bone density. I thought it might be a great idea to address all these kind of potential problems way before they start. Perhaps natto would be an excellant general supplement? For people with those kind of health challenges natto seems like miracle substance.

Neprinol looks like overpriced shit. Seriously, it is complete over priced shit, and your scamdar should be going off like crazy. It's an overpriced proprietary formula of ingredients which can be had far cheaper. If you want a large dose of FU just buy a bottle of seripeptidase. Those testimonials are in line with the types of illnesses people treat with nattokinase, but the ones on that scammy website are probably fake.

Thanks addison for the reply. Did a bit more looking around, and I agree with you on the Neprinol, way too expensive. I also don't like a proprietary formula one as well. You could duplicate all the ingredients in it way cheaper shopping from I herb.

[meatwad]

You can buy natto in many asian stores, normally you can get 3 or 4 wrapped containers for about a dollar.

It is an acquired taste, mix in 1 egg + green onions and eat with rice. A great daily snack and the mucuousy crap is great for stomache/digestion.

[durandal]

Nattokinase is well absorbed through the intestinal wall, and oral administration is effective.

I call bs on this as well, link? The digestive system is optimized pretty well for breaking down peptides. Even if this protein is magically resistant to gut proteases, I don't know of any mechanism in which whole peptides are actively transported into the bloodstream from the gut.

[krillin]

Nattokinase is well absorbed through the intestinal wall, and oral administration is effective.

I call bs on this as well, link? The digestive system is optimized pretty well for breaking down peptides. Even if this protein is magically resistant to gut proteases, I don't know of any mechanism in which whole peptides are actively transported into the bloodstream from the gut.

Acta Haematol. 1990;84(3):139-43.
Enhancement of the fibrinolytic activity in plasma by oral administration of nattokinase.
Sumi H, Hamada H, Nakanishi K, Hiratani H.
Department of Physiology, Miyazaki Medical College, Japan.

The existence of a potent fibrinolytic enzyme (nattokinase, NK) in the traditional fermented food called 'natto', was reported by us previously. It was confirmed that oral administration of NK (or natto) produced a mild and frequent enhancement of the fibrinolytic activity in the plasma, as indicated by the fibrinolytic parameters, and the production of tissue plasminogen activator. NK capsules were also administered orally to dogs with experimentally induced thrombosis, and lysis of the thrombi was observed by angiography. The results obtained suggest that NK represents a possible drug for use not only in the treatment of embolism but also in the prevention of the disease, since NK has a proven safety and can be massproduced.

PMID: 2123064

Respirology. 2003 Sep;8(3):316-20.
Effect of the proteolytic enzyme serrapeptase in patients with chronic airway disease.
Nakamura S, Hashimoto Y, Mikami M, Yamanaka E, Soma T, Hino M, Azuma A, Kudoh S.
Department of Respiratory Medicine, Tokyo Metropolitan Hiroo General Hospital, Japan. hb16104@alto.ocn.ne.jp

OBJECTIVES: The proteolytic enzyme serrapeptase (SER) is widely used in clinical practice in Japan. We investigated the effect of SER on sputum properties and symptoms in patients with chronic airway diseases. METHODS: This study was an open-labelled trial with a non-treatment control group. Patients were randomly assigned to oral treatment with (n = 15) and without (n = 14) SER 30 mg/day for 4 weeks. Patients collected sputum samples for about 4 h in the morning on the day the trial began and 4 weeks later. We measured the amount of sputum by weighing. Part of each sputum sample was weighed and then completely dried and reweighed. The percentage solid component, viscosity and elasticity of the sputum were measured. Mucociliary transportability index was measured using ciliated bovine trachea ex vivo. Sputum smears were also prepared to count sputum neutrophils. Patients' symptoms were assessed by a questionnaire that used a visual analogue scale. RESULTS: After 4 weeks of SER treatment, sputum weight in the morning, percentage solid component, viscosity and elasticity of sputum, sputum neutrophil count, frequency of coughing and frequency of expectoration significantly decreased. The mean mucociliary transportability index increased from 13.3 +/- 1.8 to 24.4 +/- 2.5 (P = 0.0103). CONCLUSIONS: SER may exert a beneficial effect on mucus clearance by reducing neutrophil numbers and altering the viscoelasticity of sputum in patients with chronic airway diseases.

PMID: 12911824

[proteomist]

This kind of attitude is totally uncalled for.

Nattokinase is well absorbed through the intestinal wall, and oral administration is effective.

I call bs on this as well, link? The digestive system is optimized pretty well for breaking down peptides. Even if this protein is magically resistant to gut proteases, I don't know of any mechanism in which whole peptides are actively transported into the bloodstream from the gut.

I guess you were one google search away from finding out that this is a MAGICALLY RESISTANT protein. All kinds of stuff make it through the gut into the bloodstream.

Edited by proteomist, 01 June 2007 - 01:17 AM.

[durandal]

From http://www.vivo.colo...orb_aacids.html

As emphasized, absorption of intact proteins occurs only in a few circumstances. In the first place, very few proteins get through the gauntlet of soluble and membrane-bound proteases intact. Second, "normal" enterocytes do not have transporters to carry proteins across the plasma membrane and they certainly cannot permeate tight junctions.

One important exception to these general statements is that for a very few days after birth, neonates have the ability to absorb intact proteins. This ability, which is rapidly lost, is of immense importance because it allows the newborn animal to acquire passive immunity by absorbing immunoglobulins in colostral milk.

In constrast to humans and rodents, there is no significant transfer of antibodies across the placenta in many animals (cattle, sheep, horses and pigs to name a few), and the young are born without circulating antibodies. If fed colostrum during the first day or so after birth, they absorb large quantities of immunoglobulins and acquire a temporary immune system that provides protection until they generate their own immune responses.

The small intestine rapidly loses the capacity to absorb intact proteins - a process called closure - and consequently, animals that do not receive colostrum within the first few days after birth will likely die due to opportunistic infections.

Gentlemen, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Sure, trace amounts of proteins might slip though, but I'd hardly call that "well" absorbed.

Edited by durandal, 01 June 2007 - 01:39 AM.

[krillin]

Gentlemen, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.  Sure, trace amounts of proteins might slip though, but I'd hardly call that "well" absorbed.

Did you even bother to read the abstracts? The orally-consumed enzymes had therapeutic effects.

[proteomist]

No thank you, I'll do it in public. You point out that he's an adult, yet to judge by the tenor of your posts versus his, you are the one who could stand to grow up a little.

He presents a very valid point. Merely pointing to a couple of abstracts in some rather half-assed journals is no refutation of the accepted concept that proteins are not taken up in the adult gut. Now I suspect the story is much more complicated, as evidenced by the efficacy of antigen feeding in modulating allergic response. But those abstracts don't prove a damn thing, and to say that all he had to do was a quick google search to clear up this extremely complicated matter is ridiculous.

This kind of attitude is totally uncalled for.

Write me a PM next time. He's an adult. He can do his own google searches. Or he can causelessly and insultingly call "bullshit" on other forum members so that he can lazily force others to do his google searches for him.

For now, though, I'll continue to take my nattokinase, an experience which feels all the more special given that it is so "magically resistant" and probably has other mythological properties.

[durandal]

He can do his own google searches.

Burden of proof is on the claimer. That means you get to do your own research to support your arguments.

[proteomist]

Wow. Way to prove my point.

He can do his own google searches.

Burden of proof is on the claimer. That means you get to do your own research to support your arguments.

Thanks for condescendingly telling me what I am obligated to do on this internet forum when answering your questions.

The amount of information I choose to share with people like you is under my own discretion. You were being a jerk. That means you get to do your own research.

No thank you, I'll do it in public. You point out that he's an adult, yet to judge by the tenor of your posts versus his, you are the one who could stand to grow up a little.

Thanks for the deep personal insight. Really, to think a stranger over the internet would know me so well. Do you want to show your maturity by fighting over the internet and trying to score points against people by making personal judgments, or do you want to actually follow the rules of this forum and talk about Nattokinase? I know that you two are causing me to deeply regret my decision to say a single thing on the subject, so I'll choose option C, which unfortunately profits me and not you.

Victory goes to "durandal" and "proteomist." Addison Strack's comments withdrawn!

PREPARE FOR THE NEXT CHAPTER ON THE STAAAGE OF HISTORY!

[durandal]

Interesting, but this still leaves the question of whether the intestine is permeable to foreign, non-pancreatic enzymes.

[proteomist]

And here's a much more recent review. However, while trypsin and other digestive enzymes might be recycled, this does not on it's own mean that other proteins are absorbed whole by the gut. That may be the case, or the digestive enzymes may be specifically recognized by receptors and actively transported. So, without further evidence of mechanism I don't think it's fair to conclude that other proteins are also absorbed whole (though some may be for all I know).

1: Physiol Rev. 2002 Jan;82(1):1-18.Click here to read Links
Conservation of digestive enzymes.
Rothman S, Liebow C, Isenman L.

Dept. of Physiology, University of California-San Francisco, San Francisco, California 94143-0444, USA. rothman@itsa.ucsf.edu

The traditional understanding is that an entirely new complement of digestive enzymes is secreted by the pancreas into the small intestines with each meal. This is thought to be necessary because, like food itself, these enzymes are degraded during digestion. In this review we discuss experiments that bring this point of view into question. They suggest that digestive enzymes can be absorbed into blood, reaccumulated by the pancreas, and reutilized, instead of being reduced to their constituent amino acids in the intestines. This is called an enteropancreatic circulation of digestive enzymes.

PMID: 11773607 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[durandal]

That may be the case, or the digestive enzymes may be specifically recognized by receptors and actively transported.

This is my hypothesis as well.

[krillin]

He presents a very valid point. Merely pointing to a couple of abstracts in some rather half-assed journals is no refutation

You can't dismiss papers just because they're published in journals with low impact factors. Was there something wrong with the methodology? Or are you saying that the results were faked? I can provide a number of other references that confirm their results.

of the accepted concept that proteins are not taken up in the adult gut.

See, this is what happens when you use the procedure "read, post, search" instead of "read, search, post." Just two hours after this half-cocked post you had to backtrack and suffer damage to your credibility.

Here's some better evidence: they didn't just find that fibrinolytic activity was increased, they found that the actual enzyme made it into the blood.

Biotechnol Appl Biochem. 1994 Aug;20 ( Pt 1):101-8.
Intestinal absorption of serrapeptase (TSP) in rats.
Moriya N, Nakata M, Nakamura M, Takaoka M, Iwasa S, Kato K, Kakinuma A.

Biotechnology Research Laboratories, Takeda Chemical Industries Ltd., Osaka, Japan.

A sensitive sandwich enzyme immunoassay (e.i.a.) for serrapeptase (TSP), an orally available anti-inflammatory proteinase, was established using affinity-purified anti-TSP rabbit IgG and its Fab' fragment conjugated with horseradish peroxidase as the first and the second antibodies respectively. TSP in the plasma was determined by the e.i.a. after its oral administration (100 mg/kg) to rats. The peak concentration was observed between 30 min and 2 h after administration. TSP in the plasma samples was trapped on a microtitre plate coated with the affinity-purified anti-TSP rabbit IgG, and the hydrolysis of a synthetic fluorogenic substrate, butoxycarbonyl-Glu(benzyloxy)-Ala-Arg-4-methylcoumaryl-7-amide, by the trapped TSP was fluorometrically measured (proteinase assay). The values obtained by the e.i.a. and those obtained by the proteinase assay correlated well for various plasma samples. These results indicate that orally administered TSP was absorbed from the intestinal tract and transferred into the circulation in an enzymically active form.

PMID: 7917060

[krillin]

Here's one for nattokinase.

Biol Pharm Bull. 1995 Sep;18(9):1194-6.
Transport of nattokinase across the rat intestinal tract.
Fujita M, Hong K, Ito Y, Misawa S, Takeuchi N, Kariya K, Nishimuro S.
Biotechnology Research Laboratories, JCR Pharmaceuticals Co., Ltd., Kobe, Japan.

Intraduodenal administration of nattokinase (NK) at a dose of 80 mg/kg, resulted in the degradation of fibrinogen in plasma suggesting transport of NK across the intestinal tract in normal rats. The action of NK on the cleavage of fibrinogen in the plasma from blood samples drawn at intervals after intraduodenal administration of the enzyme was investigated by sodium dodecyl sulfate-polyacrylamide gel electrophoresis (SDS-PAGE) and Western blotting analysis with an anti-fibrinogen gamma chain antibody. The 270 kDa fragment carrying antigenic sites for the binding of the anti-fibrinogen gamma chain antibody appeared within 0.5 h and was then degraded gradually to a 105 kDa fragment via a 200 kDa fragment. This suggests that fibrinogen was degraded to a 105 kDa fragment via several intermediates (270 and 200 kDa). In parallel with the degradation process, plasma recalcification times were remarkably prolonged NK was also detected in the plasma from blood samples drawn 3 and 5 h after administration of the enzyme by SDS-PAGE and Western blotting analysis with an anti-NK antibody. The results indicate that NK is absorbed from the rat intestinal tract and that NK cleaves fibrinogen in plasma after intraduodenal administration of the enzyme.

PMID: 8845803

[durandal]

That last paper looks convincing.