23 replies to this topic

[DJS]

California Swimmer Killed by Shark
August 20, 2003


AVILA BEACH, Calif. - A 50-year-old college instructor taking a morning swim bled to death after she was attacked by a great white shark 15 to 18 feet long, preliminary autopsy showed Wednesday.

Deborah Franzman of Nipomo was killed Tuesday as she swam 75 yards offshore alongside a group of seals [yeah, not too smart]. Witnesses reported seeing a large fin as Franzman screamed for help.

WashingtonPost

Attached Files

•  shark_2.jpg   11.43KB   7 downloads

[DJS]

Of course, there's all kinds of stuff like this. Falling off a curb and hitting your head, getting struck by lightening, a meteor falling on your head, and the big one...car accidents.

How could anyone possibly ever eliminate all of these risks. It's impossible. I guess this is why I think downloading will eventually be necessary. Or maybe just the creation of new indestructible bodies made out of nanomaterials.


PS I put the shark attack up because that particularly terrifies me. [:o] Shark week, yeah!!

[Bruce Klein]

The shark certainly personifies the type of risk you may call environmental hazards. Paying careful attention to ones environment, knowing the possibility of being eaten by a shark is greater when swimming next to seals would be helpful, as an example.

[Lazarus Long]

So would you eliminate all sharks from existence Don?

Or can superior rational intelligence co-exist with a primal lethal predator?

[DJS]

Eliminate all sharks from existence! But then there wouldn't be anymore shark week on Discovery. [cry]

I'll respond in a more serious manner later as I am off to the races.

Kissinger

[DJS]

So would you eliminate all sharks from existence Don?

Or can superior rational intelligence co-exist with a primal lethal predator?

Are you trying to check out my environmentalist credentials?

Can't we just collect and save all of the different variants of DNA on this planet and then create a new home for them on another planet at a later date? Kidding kidding [lol] .

I have always been a nature person. The only TV I watch besides CSPAN and some junk political programming is Animal Planet and Discovery.

Plus I like to camp out. Admittedly I haven't done so in quite a while, but when I was younger I use to camp out almost every month as a Boy Scout. Nature kicks butt.

Back to the question at hand. Would I eliminate sharks?

No. But this is not a good question for me because they do not really pose a threat to my existence. I rarely go into the ocean (mainly because I have an irrational fear of sharks). When I do go in I never go in past my waist. Even at waist level I feel nervous, which is completely irrational because a shark could never get in that close. Megan finds this phobia funny.

What I think is really nuts is all of the kids in Thailand island hopping (swimming the 1/4 mile to a mile between islets) through waters inhabited by sharks! I'll pay the 150 boht and get a ride, thank you very much. When you see a large fin in the water with you and you're still a quarter mile off shore then come and tell me it's good exercise! [:o]

Using the logic of (eliminating everything that poses a threat to us), then I guess we would have to eliminate dogs, cars, plane...people. Just think of all the things we would have to eliminate. A more practical alternative would be let people choose what kinds of risk they are willing to allow themselves to be exposed to. If I'm afraid of being killed in a car accident then I could 1) not drive, which is very impractical or 2) get a car with the best safety features available. If I'm afraid of shark attacks then I don't go in too deep. In other words, as BJ said, I could avoid or seek to minimize the potential risks involved with an activity.

I would never eliminate sharks. They're too cool. Mosquitoes on the other hand...

As an aside: My common justification to Megan for not going too deep into the ocean was that "humans are not adapted to survive in this environment." After reading about the Aquatic Theory of human evolution I may have to come up with a new excuse. [lol]

Edited by Kissinger, 21 August 2003 - 07:00 AM.

[DJS]

A better example than sharks would be California mountain lions. Attacks by mountain lions in California have been going up as a result of humans encroaching on their natural habitat. This leads some people in mountain lion country to propose official hunts to end the mountain lion "threat". But statistics such as the ones below show why such an action would be based on fear and not logic.

Average per year:

100 human deaths in auto collisions with deer (130 in 1989 alone).
86 deaths due to lightning strikes.
40 deaths due to bee stings.
18-20 people killed by dogs (also inflict suture-requiring injuries on 200,000 people).
12 human deaths resulting from 5,000 rattlesnake bites.
3 deaths due to bites of black widow spider.
0.33 fatal mountain lions attacks, or one fatal attack every three years (this even includes attacks in Canada).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There have been 12 documented mountain lion attacks on people in California since 1890. Five of these were fatal, and two of the fatal attacks were in 1994. There have been more attacks in the last 10 years (9) than in the previous 96 years (3). (p) Mountain lion attacks on people are extremely rare, even for the millions of Californians who spend much of their time outdoors, hiking, camping, biking, hunting, and fishing. Experts agree that you have a better chance of winning the California Lottery than being attacked by a cougar. -- ARNAH

[advancedatheist]

Social democracy arose as a strategy for rationally dealing with the risks of life. You have a near-unity chance of becoming chronically ill or disabled if you live long enough, whereas even under the most utopian libertarian conditions you'd have only a tiny chance of becoming wealthy before you lose ability to work.

Any one of us could join the class of vulnerable and dependent people at any time, through no fault of our own -- think of becoming like Christopher Reeve, without his money. Libertarians who want to do away with social provisions for the unfortunate are way overestimating their own competence, and way underestimating their own vulnerability. But then, there's something about libertarianism that exploits the young male brain's capacity for self-deception. Men want to deny their potential weaknesses because they have a program running in their brains to make them show off their reproductive fitness to potential mates.

[DJS]

Your evolutionary psych theory on young men and Libertarianism is interesting. But there are also old men who are Libertarians. [B)] Maybe Libertarians just calculate that the costs of more government (more regulation, loss of freedom, economic stagnation) out weigh the benefit (security).

I am not Libertarian, but I agree with them when they say more governement equals less freedom. This, by the way, is completely off topic. Maybe we should create a separate thread for it titled "The logic of safety nets" or something to that effect.

[Bruce Klein]

So, is Megan a GF? Sorry if I missed this one.

[AgentNyder]

So, is Megan a GF?  Sorry if I missed this one.

Girlfriends?

I would say there is a high probability of 'accident's' with them!

[DJS]

Ah, yes BJ, my bad. Megan is THE GF. She is the first girl I have ever gone out with that has a brain, which may help to make our relationship last.

[Bruce Klein]

Ah, That's right. If she's the one that reads Ayn Rand, then she's a keeper

[AgentNyder]

From the Australian Bureau of Statistics:

Injury-related deaths and recent injuries
In 2001, the leading cause of death from injury in Australia was suicide, accounting for 31% of all injury-related deaths. Following suicide, transport accidents were the next most common cause of injury-related death, causing 25% of such deaths. This has not always been the case. Between 1971 and 1990, motor vehicle traffic accidents caused more injury-related deaths than suicide. However, over the 30 years to 2001, there was a consistent decline in the age-standardised death rate from motor vehicle traffic accidents (from 30 to 9 deaths per 100,000 population in 2001), while the rate of suicide remained relatively stable (at around 13 deaths per 100,000). In 2001, accidental poisoning and falls each caused 8% of injury-related deaths, while assault caused 4% of injury-related deaths.

SELECTED CAUSES OF INJURY-RELATED DEATHS - 2001



(a) Includes choking, suffocation, drowning, and many other external causes.

Source: ABS Deaths Collection.

http://www.abs.gov.a...33;OpenDocument

[Mind]

Any one of us could join the class of vulnerable and dependent people at any time, through no fault of our own -- think of becoming like Christopher Reeve, without his money. Libertarians who want to do away with social provisions for the unfortunate are way overestimating their own competence, and way underestimating their own vulnerability.

This is why I have strong family and community ties...so I do not have to rely on the government to steal money from people I do not know and give it to me. People who do not have a strong family bond or live solitary lives tend to ask for anonymous help from the government, instead of the people they know.

Accidental death has been one of life's risks ever since we walked on 2 feet. We made it along pretty good without government. Small social circles worked well for a few thousand years. When governments sprang to action...that is when the killing really got started.

I suggest that large governments are a threat to life.

Edited by Mind, 03 September 2003 - 09:52 PM.

[John Doe]

Any one of us could join the class of vulnerable and dependent people at any time, through no fault of our own -- think of becoming like Christopher Reeve, without his money. Libertarians who want to do away with social provisions for the unfortunate are way overestimating their own competence, and way underestimating their own vulnerability. But then, there's something about libertarianism that exploits the young male brain's capacity for self-deception. Men want to deny their potential weaknesses because they have a program running in their brains to make them show off their reproductive fitness to potential mates.

Libertarians do not propose that we threaten with a gun and jail time anyone who attempts to give charity. Neither do libertarians propose that we threaten with a gun and jail time anyone who refuses to give charity. Rather, libertarians would keep charity private and, while acknowledge that the problem of scarcity, argue that this is a better solution than coercion. Young men do wish to give the impression of invulnerability and demonstrate fitness, but I am inclined to think that libertarians underestimate other's altruism as much as their own vulnerability.

[80srich]

Of course, there's all kinds of stuff like this.  Falling off a curb and hitting your head, getting struck by lightening, a meteor falling on your head, and the big one...car accidents.

How could anyone possibly ever eliminate all of these risks.  It's impossible.  I guess this is why I think downloading will eventually be necessary.  Or maybe just the creation of new indestructible bodies made out of nanomaterials.

Kissinger

PS I put the shark attack up because that particularly terrifies me. [:o] Shark week, yeah!!

Hmm afraid nothing in the universe is indestructible though it might feasible to make your body incredibly strong either by modifying genetic structure using nanomachines (From Drexlers engines of healing chapter) or uploading. I suppose that kind of superstrength would eliminate almost all of such risks though i imagine a meteor or lightning etc would still be certain death.

Still at least sharks wont get you

[80srich]

Did some researching into uploading/downloading however and that seems a more probable alternative. As long as you believe that that is definately you in anycase. If your genetic information along with your memories could be stored in computer systems throughout the universe youd be pretty certain to survive almost anything except the end of the universe or a war (Assuming massively more powerful weapons than today). That information could then make a new you in the event you died, the debate is whether that is actually you of course. Interesting stuff.

[Lazarus Long]

As long as you believe that that is definitely you in any case.

Isn't this the issue now regardless of whether uploading/downloading is possible?

After all isn't this how we define a form of madness as the loss of control over self?

It is as if there has been created a discontinuity between the individuals and their belief that they are who they are. Either they lose their social self and become "sociopathic" or they become emotionally schizophrenic but in splitting a personality it is as if one loses a "belief" in a way that it is they that are actually acting out in the manner they in fact are.

I suspect this as the reason some people are so convinced that we cannot ever come to understand our own mind because it is as we approach this very level of self awareness that we run the highest risk of kind of overloading our own mental state and subjecting our selves to an induced loss of conviction in their own being because to be that objective they would have to kind of create a psychological out of body awareness.

I suspect the evolution of Techlepathy will begin as an extension of complex communications between organic individuals before we ever reach a level of uploading ability, and uploading will be a complex art to preserve self awareness as the mind transcends self image predicated on body's sensory input and physiological associations. Think of losing your "face". As a data stream the human mind must become transcendent psychologically to be able to accomplish this and remain sane.

I raise this point to attest to what I suspect are the real obstacles to uploading but I do not think the obstacles are insurmountable.

Enough rambling, I also heartily recommend you join in the discussion concerning uploading in various places in our forum but in particular one that has just started up in the recently posted Emortal thread started by Till.


Emortalism 102 - Till Noever

I will be linking this particular post over to there as it is relevant more to that discussion. Here we should try an stay on topic but also as closing point: Why would would it matter if you were a copy if you were still self aware? If there were more than one of me and each wants to claim to be original which is more likely in an upload situation both have equal claim to the original? Or they would find a way to merge consciousness such that memory of both individual's lives would blend along with a kind of extended experience that could produce a form of psychosis unless it was rationally processed?

I suspect it will greatly vary based on individual personality and character to begin with and in some people the very act of trying to upload may become their accident waiting to happen, while in others it may become their insurance policy that allows them to reboot millions of times over the eons to come. But in this case we are only modifying what people now "believe" about reincarnation and making it a technological fact. So uploading could become a clause in a very good "Accidental Death and Dismemberment Policy" but I also think it could run over some people that are not psychological prepared for it like a corrupt insurance salesman driving a Buick he bought by stealing their money.

We should return to more of a focus on this thread's topic, and accidents do happen, and preparing for all contingencies and trying to anticipate all risk can reduce some forms of "accident" but the law of unintended consequences will catch up to you with Murphy's by its side and yes, Sh*t does happen.

[DJS]

Yes accidents do happen. I just had a really close call on the highway tonight. I was driving on Route 78 in the fast lane going about 70-72 mph. Out of no where I see a car in front of me that is half in the emergency lane and half in my lane...standing still. I guess the guy's car had broken down or something and he couldn't move it. Anyway, I didn't even have time to think (or check for cars to my right). I can say with confidence that my reaction time is good.

It went along the lines of 1) car 2) car only half in lane 3) car not moving [:o] 4) jerk wheel right, straighten wheel 5) miss car by a few inches going 70+ MPH.

And there was a guy to my right, but fortunately he was aware of what was going on and moved to his right as well. Otherwise I might not be writing this right now... I pulled over for a few minutes after this happened to calm down as my hands were shaking. Life certainly is a precarious thing.

I want to be truly immortal, and as such, biotech is not enough. It is a start, but it is not enough. The eventual changing of my substrate will be necessary to accomplish my objective.

[Bruce Klein]

Glad you're safe Don.

[Da55id]

I too am glad you're ok!

Cars are a funny thing...they are the quintessential symbol of control - yet, I don't believe I've ever met anyone who has been driving for several years who has not had some sort of accident!

My wife and daughter were hit by a person that ran a red light at high speed - no warning at all. Earlier, I had mitigated risk by insisting on buying a Buick LeSabre which had the highest US collision safety record. The car was a god awful wreck. They came through with some injury, but they were ALIVE!

We replaced the car with a Buick Park Avenue (read:Tank) and retired the Suzuki (made of tissue paper :-)

[DJS]

Thanks guys, and sorry to hear about your wife and daughter MM [mellow] . For the forseeable future there will always be a risk inherent with driving, but I think that the new side airbags that are coming out will greatly mitigate the risk of broadsides; a step in the right direction since right now if you get hit from the side the odds are you are going to end up as bio-mush.

[randolfe]

I was walking down the Street the other night. It was very cold and snow had just commenced falling. Suddenly, my feet went out from beneath me and i not only fell but fell into as basement entrance bumping down several steps.

I wasn't even hurt. Several people rushed over. One noticed I tossed my keys in the air while falling and handed them back to me. But thjis was a very frightening experience. Dr. Atkins, the famous diet doctor, died from slipping on ice last year.

I've decided just to be extra cautious and not even go out when conditions are really bad. And to think, I was coming from the New York Transhumanist Meeting.
What irony it would have been if that had been the end of me. We never know.

Regarding the ideas of sharks and other predators, I must confess that I really don't like animals that kill and eat other animals. Maybe that is why I am sometimes not too fond of human beings in general either.