<Lucifer> Do we have an official topic for the official chat?
<BJKlein> Yes.. actually..
<BJKlein> I was thinking about a hypo.
<outlawpoet> uh
<outlawpoet> filled with what exactly?
<outlawpoet> my doctor won't let me take strange medications without checking with him...
<BJKlein> I'll throw it out to let it ferment
<BJKlein> lol, outlawpoet... If one had $100...
<BJKlein> what Life Extension Product would be the best investment..
<BJKlein> And I'm thinking along the lines of www.lef.org, not trying to drum up business for them, but just as an example
<outlawpoet> hm
*** Retrieving #immortal info...
<BJKlein> and to clarify... we're talking about a male in his mid 20's
<BJKlein> Ok... Topic #2 , We have 6, count em 6 entries in the months writers competition....
<BJKlein> http://www.imminst.o...?s=&act=SF&f=65
<BJKlein> brb
Session Close: Sun Sep 08 18:50:17 2002
Session Start: Sun Sep 08 18:53:11 2002
Session Ident: #immortal
*** Now talking in #immortal
<BJKlein> Click.. Official chat time has started.
<BJKlein> Just to begin, I'd like to thank the authors who took the time to submit their articles/papers to this months competition.
<Lucifer> whoohoo
* Eliezer looks around for nrv8
<BJKlein> This seems to be a good way to promote and collect some of the "better" immortaltiy related writings
<BJKlein> Or at least let our peers decide on what is important, via a vote count
<BJKlein> On the forums in general, I have upped changed slightly my philosophy.. only slightly... to focus on more quality posts and topics..
* Gordon claps
<BJKlein> I'm more prone to toss off topics and irrelevant posts to the "Catcher"
* Gordon wonders if this is a speech by BJKlein or a chat
<Eliezer> the... "Catcher"?
<BJKlein> The "Catcher" is just a catch all forum.
<Eliezer> oh, thank goodness
* BJKlein would love other to chime in
<Eliezer> sheesh, Gordon, if you don't like it, say more...
<Gordon> oh, come on, we all know that you're talking about THE "Catcher"
* Gordon says "more more more more more ..."
<BJKlein> Gordon, I know you spend most of your waking hours at the Immortaltiy Inst. forums.. so you know all about the catcher
<BJKlein> Anyway... more, hmm
<caliban> does someone have an question/agenda?
<BJKlein> I might actaully start talking to myself if it stays this quiet
* Gordon releases the crickets
<Eliezer> I have an agenda but it's a secret
<BJKlein> I asked a hypo earlier...
<Eliezer> You just talk and I'll let you know whether it's on the agenda
<BJKlein> If you had 100$ to blow on a life extension product...
<caliban> Eliezer : ;-) at least you know about it !
* Gordon talks about fluffy bunnies with switch blades
<BJKlein> for example something on the shelves at www.lef.org what would be good for a mid 20's male to use
<caliban> BJ: is that a one-off 100$ or a continuous one??
<BJKlein> or more interestingly ... do any of you guys take vitamins or any other "health & longevity" products
<BJKlein> sheww.. thank goodness.. Mind showed up
<BJKlein> I thought I had lost it
<Eliezer> I attempt to follow the Paleo Diet... maybe I'd buy $100 worth of flaxseed oil
<BJKlein> yeh.. Eliezer, I looked over that site..
<Mind> Hi BJ
<BJKlein> Welcome Back Mind
<Mind> My schedule has not allowed many Sunday night chats
<Mind> :-(
<BJKlein> well... whatever it is that's keeping you from making the chats.. it can't be worth it
<Mind> lol
<Gordon> bah, I don't like the looks of the Paleo Diet
<Mind> The more I get involved with the institute...forums...the less important everything else seems
<Gordon> potatoes are my favorite food
<Mind> A lot of starch in potatoes
<Eliezer> Gordon, how does that relate to... oh, never mind
* caliban would buy a good first aid kit if it was a one-shot 100$
* Gordon reminds Eliezer that I'm apparently still in apprentice mode
<Mind> Hey Eliezer! how is everything at singinst? Give me a quick summary ofhow friendly Ai is going.
<Eliezer> just a sec... are you an individual I know? (trying to figure out your current knowledge base)
<Mind> You do not know me
<Mind> I have read quite a few of your articles at singinst
<Mind> I have been a memeber with BJ's sites isince April
<Gordon> the rational for the Paleo Diet is rather week, too (at least the rational that I've found)
<caliban> has anyone ever taken L-Dopa ?
<Eliezer> ok, SIAI is trying to pull stuff together for a major site upgrade, a fellow named Christian Rovner just volunteered as Volunteer Coordinator...
<Gordon> oops, make that rationale
<Eliezer> caliban: I have, no effect
<Eliezer> the Paleo Diet is the *only* diet I've found that has *any* rationale, so I'm following it
<eg0mech> Eliezer, I volunteered to hold a panel on transhumanism at a local sci-fi convention, I was thinking it'd be a good opportunity to push the SIAI.
<caliban> Eliezer: you mean no bliss?
<Gordon> my spelling is rather weak, on IRC, too ;-)
<Eliezer> caliban: I mean, no effect - L-Dopamine is a noradrenaline precursor, noradrenaline is supposed to be involved in arousal/wakefulness/mental energy, I noticed no such effect
<Gordon> Eliezer: talk to a neurtionlist sometime
<Eliezer> (I was willing to try it because it just supplies raw material, rather than whacking on the brain with a sledgehammer like reuptake inhibitors and so on)
<Eliezer> eg0mech: good work, I have to do that for Dragoncon next year
<eg0mech> Maybe you can't get any smarter, eli. You've reached the limits of grey-matter substrate.
<Gordon> grr, my spelling is very very bad tonight
<eg0mech> </tic>
<caliban> Eliezer: well it IS a rather dangerous supplement, but I was interessted in the live-extension effect more than the nootropics
<caliban> L-dopa alledgedly increased lifepan in rats by 50% !!!
<Eliezer> don't know anything about the life-extension effect
<Mind> 50%....what!?
<Eliezer> except that I tried L-Dopa and I'm still alive
<BJKlein> caliban, you may want to post your q to the nootropics forum, LifeMirage would most likely be helpful there
<Gordon> all this talk of diets reminds me that it's time to do a little foraging, even if I'm the only one still thinking about diets and everyone has moved on to discuss exciting drugs
<caliban> Eliezer: well thats something already :-) !!! how much did you take?
<BJKlein> Eliezer, why are you looking for nrv8
<Mind> Does anyone here take vinpocetine?
<caliban> Gordon: i can't get any exciting drugs, let alone afford them :-(
<Eliezer> sl4.org may be happening soon
<Mind> My local vitamin store has it. I thought about trying it
<Mind> Hello Mermaid
<Mind> Does anyone here take vinpocetine?
<BJKlein> yep
<BJKlein> I take a combo of nootropics
<Mind> What is the effect Memory?, Speed?
<Mind> Alertness?
<Gordon> all drugs are exciting to me, since I don't take any
<Mind> Right now I just eat a balanced diet and take Gingko
<BJKlein> actually, I cant give you a specific effect for vinpocetine..
<BJKlein> because I take more than one..
<Mind> I understand
<caliban> BJ: did you talk to LifeMirage about reopening the Nootropics section?
<BJKlein> but in general, I can tell an effect... positive interms of focus..
<BJKlein> much like a couple of cups of coffee
<Mind> Focus...cool
<Gordon> the closest I come to drugs is caffinated beverages, and that's only because decaf teas suck
<Mind> I am drinking a caffine and sugar loaded mountain dew right now
<Mind> Most of the time I drink Green Tea though
<BJKlein> I would suggest that everyone stay clear of any beverages that have large amounts of sugar
<Gordon> aie!
<Mind> I can't believe how much caffine is in regular green tae
<Gordon> I don't have any problem with the sugar
* BJKlein hunts for "that" link....
<Mind> I have cut back on my sugar intake...per BJ's advice inthe forums
<Mermaid> ahem...sugar is just a-ok..so long as you dont consume it by cupfuls
* Gordon does not
* MichaelA drinks sugary coffee
<BJKlein> take a look on the side of that coke can...
<Mermaid> and that goes for just about everything else....
<BJKlein> tell me how many grams of sugar it has?
<Mermaid> 40?
<Mermaid> 50?
<Mind> My MD says 46 grams of sugar
<BJKlein> about 35 to 40 per 12 ozs pepsi has more
<Gordon> my decaf pepsi says 27g
<BJKlein> but that about 4 times the amount of sugar you should have in one 24 hr stretch
* caliban loves chocolate
<BJKlein> from all food intake
<Mermaid> wha...?
<Gordon> not according to the FDA :-P
<Mermaid> 10gms of sugar a day?
<Mind> I like how in the indgredients section it says "High fructose corn syrup and/or sugar"
<Mermaid> you mean...carbs or sugar?
<BJKlein> sure, go ahead and let the government kill us..
<eg0mech> Yeah, the FDA has all of our best interests in mind.
<Mind> lol...they don't care as long as it is sweet
<Mermaid> nobody even knows what fructose does to the system..they use it 'cause its cheaper than cane sugar
<Mermaid> except of course the "Coke for Passover"
<Mermaid> especially bottled in Mexico...sugar..very limited in supply
<Eliezer> do *not* trust the Food Pyramid
<BJKlein> Ten Of The 78 Ways Sugar Can Ruin Your Health::
<BJKlein> 1. Sugar can suppress the immune system.
<BJKlein> 2. Sugar can upset the body's mineral balance.
<BJKlein> 3. Sugar can cause hyperactivity, anxiety, concentration difficulties, and crankiness in children.
<BJKlein> 4. Sugar can cause drowsiness and decreased activity in children.
<BJKlein> 5. Sugar can adversely affect children's school grades.
<BJKlein> 6. Sugar can produce a significant rise in triglycerides.
<BJKlein> 7. Sugar contributes to a weakened defense against bacterial infection.
<BJKlein> 8. Sugar can cause kidney damage.
<BJKlein> 9. Sugar can reduce helpful high density cholesterol (HDLs).
<BJKlein> 10. Sugar can promote an elevation of harmful cholesterol (LDLs).
<Mind> At least the food pyramid has gotten better
<Eliezer> dietary science has been blowing huge holes in it
* MichaelA chopped the middle out of his food pyramid a while ago
<BJKlein> sorry, had to punch that in
* caliban still loves chocolate
<Mind> At least the food pyramid has gotten better
<Mind> Still not the best though
<BJKlein> Full List of Sugar Problems plus references: http://www.rheumatic.org/sugar.htm
* Mermaid wonders why chocolate doesnt appear in the food pyramid..isnt it a food group by itself?
* Eliezer wonders if Mermaid is related to his mother
<Mermaid> depends..was she frisky in the mid 70s?
<Eliezer> don't know... never asked... never will
<Mind> How much sugar do you eat BJ?
<BJKlein> less than 10 grams per day from all sources of food
<Mermaid> good boy....;-)
<Mermaid> and that includes?
<Mind> What about apples?
<Mind> Or oranges?
<Mind> Do you aviodthese
<caliban> chocolate is a food group by itself - the illuminati eye in the food pyramid!
<BJKlein> My diet includes very few fruits
<Mind> avoid these?
<Gordon> oh boy, I might as well just go into deep meditation in the mountains now
<Mind> no way!!!
<Mind> no fruit?
<Gordon> that'll be easier than not eating more than 10 g of sugar a day
* Eliezer eats fruts+vegetables+meat+fish and that's basically it, except for some dishes that involve eggs
<BJKlein> the bulk of my died includes mostly meat, chicken, and fish products
<Eliezer> *fruits
<BJKlein> diet*
<Mind> *aacckk
* Mermaid sighs
<caliban> BJ: to much protein I fear- not vitamins
9W8inblows XP_se ( 9C8onfigured 9B8y12 BJKlein 8,1) 9H8asn't 9C8rashed 9F8or: 15 5hrs 54mins 30secs
<Eliezer> I only eat foods that a hunter-gatherer could plausibly have foraged from a local supermarket
<Gordon> my diet consists of tofu, potatoes, fruits and veggies, corn chips
<Mind> Doesn't too much protein = harm to liver
<Gordon> I find that I can never seem to eat enough corn chips ;-)
<BJKlein> so much carbs is the problem...
<Eliezer> depends on the carbs
<BJKlein> to much grain and processed flower products
<Eliezer> fruit and vegetables won't hurt you
<Mermaid> flour
<Eliezer> grains and processed sugar will
<Mind> I have been eating a few more chips lately...after making my own salsa from my garden
<BJKlein> if I do eat carbs, yes it's the complex kinds
<Mind> I only eat whole grain wheat bread.
<Gordon> of course, real purists will grind their own corn to make chips
<Eliezer> corn not an ancestral food
<Gordon> I just don't worry about it too much
<Mind> I friend of my a few years back said "the whiter the bread...the quicker you're dead"
<Mind> And he isn't even an immortalist
<Mind> good advice
<Gordon> medition will have a much larger effect on your mind/body than any particular diet will
<Eliezer> I most strongly doubt that, Gordon
<caliban> Eliezer: why ancestral foods?
<Mind> do you mean meditation
<BJKlein> depends on the medication
<Mind> or medication
<Gordon> meditation
<Mind> How much do you meditate?
<Eliezer> caliban: the same reason you run your car on gasoline instead of plutonium
<Eliezer> it's what it was designed for
<Mind> hours per day?
<BJKlein> ahh, in that case.. I would have to disagree Gordon
<Mind> minutes per day?
<caliban> Eliezer: I did not think you were a creationist :-) ?
<Mind> lol
<Mind> evolutionarily designed
<Mind> maybe
<BJKlein> Yep, I agree with Eliezer, our bodies have not changed in the few thousand years we have started to grow crops...
<Eliezer> caliban: "design" is a supercategory referring to "evolutionary design" and "intelligent design"
<eg0mech> I'm looking into veganism myself.
<BJKlein> processed foods are not what we're designed to digest and use
* MichaelA cheers
* MichaelA only cares about the ethics, though
<Mind> I enjoy a mainly paleo diet also.
<eg0mech> The ethics of veganism?
<MichaelA> Yep, believe it or not, ethics does work into veganism
<Mermaid> anyone here has an exercise regime or it it just about food?
<eg0mech> Heh, I'm well aware of the ethics.
<eg0mech> I go to the gym.
<yed> t'ai chi twice a week
* caliban does not believe in evolutionary design, only in evolutionary adaptation
<eg0mech> Yoga on occasion.
* MichaelA very occasionally does situps/pushups on the floor
* BJKlein has a yoga class also
<Mind> Hey Michael!...at what point in our history would you say it became unethical to eat meat?
<BJKlein> loves yoga.. swimming.... running a little, and weights
<eg0mech> I need you to convince me that the ethical reasons for veganism are valid Michael.
<eg0mech> Because plants are alive too.
<Mermaid> i can do 20 push ups...and cant do it if its occasional
<Mermaid> thats about all my girl muscles can handle at one time
<caliban> yoga is a religious practice :-)
<Mermaid> caliban: no, it isnt
<eg0mech> Yoga is only a religious practice if you make it so.
<MichaelA> Good question, Mind
<BJKlein> heh.. yoga, religious? if it is im a deciple
*** Retrieving #immortal info...
<MichaelA> I would say that it becomes unethical at different points in different civilizations
<Mind> It seems less ethical today
<MichaelA> It definitely gets less and less ethical over time, that I know
<Mind> than in the past
<BJKlein> desciple*
<MichaelA> What is ethical and what is not also depends a lot on the current memetic atmosphere, obviously
<Mind> yep
<caliban> no
<Mind> lol
<MichaelA> So things like that come into account in formulating an ethical frame of reference, but things like easily availability of tofu and healthy vegetables don't make it more or any less moral to be vegan necessarily, but non-vegans have less excuses
<BJKlein> disciple* finally
<eg0mech> Mind! You're back. Where in wausau are you at?
<MichaelA> Like the south had the excuse "slavery runs our economy, it would collapse without it", and that is a valid argument of sorts, but not really
<Mind> 4Mind wonders: am i the only paleo diet person here thats scrounges for his own meat?
<caliban> (BJ: A disciple of yogan and swearing on the Bible... but complaining about lasershows... )
<MichaelA> You spend your time
<Gordon> sorry about that; iTunes did it's little random crash thing
<MichaelA> "scrounging for meat"..?
<MichaelA> Hunting, you mean?
<Gordon> anyway, I'll give my medition evidence once by food comes out of the oven
<Mind> It is the culture I grew up in...and I am only slowly lettin it go
<BJKlein> caliban: heh.. what a contradiction
<Mind> You know...fond memories of male bonding...family outings
<Mind> in the woods
<MichaelA> Aww, heh
* eg0mech hears banjo music in the background
<Mind> Thanks to you Micahael...I may have to satisfy my urge to rumble in the woods by searching for carrion
<BJKlein> heh
<Mind> lol
<BJKlein> I used to hunt dove
<caliban> we have moved from LEF to hunting urges :-)
<Mind> lol
<Mind> would that be dueling bajos by any chance?
<Mind> *banjos
<MichaelA> Har har
<BJKlein> yehaaaa, yippyii yaaa
<eg0mech> Yes, it sounds vaguely like that.
<MichaelA> Dueling Banjos is a cool thing
<MichaelA> song*
<MichaelA> lol
<Mind> I think the song is interesting
<Mind> a "light tune"
<Mind> meaning light-hearted
* Gordon is back to explain while eating french fries and fish sticks :-P
<Gordon> my evidence for meditation is this
<Mind> let us hear it
* caliban thinks about spening the 100$ on a hunting rifle - some sort of life extention device in its own right
<Mind> lol
<Gordon> I have changed nothing about life life before and after I started practicing Falun Gong
<MichaelA> actually more people with guns get murdered than those without guns
<Gordon> I still sleep 7 hours a night
<Gordon> eat the same foods
<Gordon> work the same amount
<MichaelA> Maybe it's the placebo effect of being involved in an organized spiritual/physical regime of some sort
<MichaelA> Enthusiasm
<Gordon> well, that's why I thought at first
<Gordon> so I quite for a while
<MichaelA> Christians also feel great when they pray
<Gordon> but the effects did not wear off immediately
<Gordon> it was only after a few weeks that I was back to my old self
<Gordon> so, I started it back up, and I feel better again
<MichaelA> That's just a specific case involving you, also, that's not really "evidence"
<Mind> The only thing I felt great about when I used to go to church was the singing
<Gordon> and, no, I have no enthusiam about it; it's really quite hard and you want to quite all of the time
<MichaelA> Well why don't you
<Mind> So figure...I should just get together with my friends and sing...and I will get the same effect
<Gordon> well, because I find that it helps me
<Gordon> if it weren't corresponding to a change in reality, I would have stopped altogether
<MichaelA> Helps you...
<MichaelA> Well lots of hobbies n' stuff correspond to changes in reality and psychological frame
<Gordon> well, I would also point out that there is a big difference between real meditation and that silly New Age stuff people do
<Utnapishtim> hey
<Mind> there is sooo much silly new age stuff out there
<Mind> yikes
<MichaelA> I'd be interested to hear why it's cost-effective to delegate time to meditation rather than to, say, reading a book
<Utnapishtim> Mind You right about that
<BJKlein> Gordon, is this a religion that helps you with an afterlife by anychance or just a meditation hobby?
<Mind> What is up with the "Crossing over" show?
<Mind> so silly
<Gordon> no afterlife
<BJKlein> Or I guess im asking is do you believe in an afterlife
<Utnapishtim> Mind: As I said to Bj earlier today people LOVE to wallow in fuzzy thinking
<Gordon> it's is a Buddha School cultivation way, so it does talk about samsara
<Gordon> but I don't believe all of that stuff
<BJKlein> good good
<Mind> I cannot believe how many people believe in those psychics like Silvia Brown
<Utnapishtim> Mind: You packers looked so-so today. They gotta work on their D!
<Mind> I know
<Mind> It is hard to get a win nowadays oin the NFL...so any win is good\
<BJKlein> Ohh, while Eliezer is apparently not looking.. what shoul we get him for his bday?
<Utnapishtim> Mind: People believe in all sorts of nonsense if it comforts them
<Gordon> Michael: I find an hour spent meditating is better than an hour spent trying to relax from working for long hours by watching TV or reading a fiction book
<Mind> Atlanta may be the up and coming team this season
<eg0mech> A Seed AI!
<eg0mech> He'd love it!
<BJKlein> doesn't he already have one?
<eg0mech> And I think he's old enough to appreciate the responsibility.
* MichaelA agrees with Gordon
<Mind> I hardly ever read fiction
<Utnapishtim> Mind: Michael Vick rolls the dice too much by running out of the pocket. He keeps that up he's gonna get drilled!
<Mind> He might get hurt...you are right
<Mind> Eagles lost a close one
<Utnapishtim> Yeah I know...
<Gordon> there's also the matter of meditating for long enough; some New Agers think that some 3-minute-meditation system will help them
<Utnapishtim> I had a feeling they'd lose to the Titans
<Mind> I didn't see the game
<Mind> Just know it was close
<Gordon> there are also the 20 minute meditation things where one focuses on a word that is two syllables and you repeat it with your breathing
<Utnapishtim> Gordon: New agers like ideas watered down and unchallenging
<Mind> you sadi it
<Mind> watered down
<Mind> They don't like to think "too" much
<Gordon> it's hard to do an hour of real meditation, but I find it's well worth it
<Utnapishtim> Mind: They just want to feel that they are "in tune" with "nature"
<Mind> I grow a garden...that puts me in tune
<Utnapishtim> It's total BS
<Mind> Is the nature of reality...too in depth a topic to discuss in the chat session
<Mind> ??
<Utnapishtim> Mind: too in depth a topic for me right now. I've had too much beer!
<Mind> lol
<Mind> I might have one before the night is over
<Utnapishtim> Just happy football's back!
<BJKlein> (Shameless Plug Alert) Writers Competition>> You're invited to Read/Vote: http://www.imminst.o...?s=&act=SF&f=65 Thanks!
<Gordon> I don't know, some people seem to think that being on drugs is the perfect time to discuss the nature of reality
<Mind> lol
<Mind> To what degree are the characters in my dreams "alive"?
<Gordon> "Let me just take a little LSD and everything will become clear!"
<Mind> lol
<Utnapishtim> Gordon:I know from experience of speaking to other inebriated folks that the quality of their thinking suffers
<caliban> speking of reaity: can anyone tell me the speed of gravity?
<eg0mech> Wait about two months and we'll be able to answer that question caliban.
<Gordon> c for now
<MichaelA> Uth, you're talking about alcohol, which is as different from LSD as sand is from, er, elephants
<caliban> two months :-(
<caliban> why does it take that long?
<eg0mech> That's when the experimentwill be done.
<Mind> We talk about creating AI in a silicon substrate all the time...isn't that what our mind does when it is dreaming?
<Utnapishtim> Caliban: how are yoyu buddy?
<Mind> not on silicon...but in nuerons
<eg0mech> Also, scientists have made breakthroughs in diamond electronic components.
<Utnapishtim> Michael: Yeah of course it is. I think we had crossed wires. Too different conversation threads getting muddled or something
<eg0mech> Smaller and able to handle more power than silicon based electronics.
<caliban> Utnap: alright I guess - as it happes I almost decided to travel via London tomorrow
<MichaelA> Uth: oops
<Utnapishtim> cool!
<caliban> eg)mech: I thought they made the observation today?
<eg0mech> So even if there is a seed ai, it probably won't be on a silicon substrate
<eg0mech> I don't know, maybe the article I saw was a couple of months hold, but I don't think so.
<Mind> The characters in my dreams talk to each other, have feelings, live, die, and fly...how close are they to being alive
<Eliezer> they are all you, and you are alive
<caliban> Utnap: I'm doing a talk in Cambridge on Tuesday - but now it says on my ticket -"Not London"
<Mind> I guess
<Utnapishtim> Caliban: Pity!
<Utnapishtim> What are you delivering a talk on?
<Mind> How clise are they to being entities apart from my conscious self?
<Mind> Not at all?
<Mind> a little bit?
<caliban> Utnap : Life extention and gene therapy :-)
<Utnapishtim> cool!
<BJKlein> Quote: "Indeed, it is widely accepted, even if less widely known, that the speed of gravity in Newton's Universal Law is unconditionally infinite"
<BJKlein> http://www.ldolphin....avityspeed.html
<Utnapishtim> Pity I can't make it down to cambridge for that talk
<eg0mech> The results will be available in two months.
<Eliezer> BJKlein: that is absolutely totally 100% bogus pseudoscience
<Eliezer> Thomas infect you with that?
<BJKlein> nope... just found it..
<BJKlein> wanted a reaction...
<MichaelA> lol
<BJKlein> I have no clue actually
<caliban> BJKlein: that is not true
* caliban was late again
<Mind> Essentially my mind is creating a simulation when it is dreaming, and therefore it must create a program for the different characters...how much different are these characters from my own conscious self?
<Gordon> v(g) = c
<Mind> A little bit?
<Mind> not at all different?
<BJKlein> so it's the speed of light..?
<Gordon> let me rephrase that
<Gordon> v(g) <= c
<caliban> BJ: thats waht they wanted to find out today
<Eliezer> what, Gordon?
<Eliezer> when is the speed of propagation of gravity less than the speed of light?
<Gordon> hypothetical gravitons (I think that they found the particle, but I forgot) cannot exceed c
<Eliezer> they did not find the graviton
<Mind> I do not think they found a graviton
<Eliezer> general relativity doesn't even call for gravitons
<Mind> it is only theory
<Eliezer> that's an artifact of various attempted unified theories
<BJKlein> FTL.. hmm, so I would guess there are few here that think we can surpass the speed of light?
<Mind> you bet
<Mind> there is nothing special about the speed of light
<Eliezer> Alcubierre warp, Van Den Broeck micro-warp
* MichaelA puts FTL in the same class as finding out we are in the simulation
<BJKlein> in any case... this could present a problem for an immortalist...
<Gordon> we can surpass c of this universe in the one next door maybe
<Mind> a barrier meant to be broken
<Eliezer> there most certainly *is* something special about the speed of light
<eg0mech> I'm more intrested in the propogation of time.
<Eliezer> do you know anything about Special Relativity?
<Eliezer> c is built into the essential structure of causality
<Eliezer> to break c you have to warp time
<Mind> phoooie
<BJKlein> I know very little about physics
<Mind> let us warp time then
<Eliezer> any FTL travel device is a time travel device, automatically
<BJKlein> enough to look stupid trying to talk about it
<Mind> yes
<Gordon> lets do the time warp agaiiiin
<Mind> lol
* Gordon does a funny little dance
<caliban> (put your hands on your hips)
<Eliezer> there's a scene in a certain science fiction book
<eg0mech> Travelling trough time wouldn't do you any good if you wanted to change the past or future anyhow.
<Eliezer> where the aliens pick up the good guys and accelerate them past the speed of light
<Eliezer> and the scientist says, "Well, we knew the Roadbuilders had superscience. Now we know they have magic."
<Mind> I subscribe to the theory that time travel sends the traveller to a different part of the multi-verse
<Eliezer> that conveys very well how hard it would be to break FTL
<caliban> asuuming they found that grvity is FTL- would they accept it/recognise it ?
<Eliezer> caliban, give up
<Eliezer> this is not worth pursuing
<Mind> no paradox that way
<Eliezer> http://math.ucr.edu/...baez/PUB/debate
<Gordon> unfortunately, this is not like in Ringworld, where we can just say "oh, they had a different model of physics"
<Eliezer> (for the gravity speed thing)
* Gordon builds the Gravitron, the fastest roller coaster in the Universe!
<Gordon> all rides take exactly 42 minutes
<Eliezer> sounds like the Circle of Time
<Gordon> no, it's any large object
* eg0mech goes back to work on the infinite improbability drive
<Mind> aahh...infinity
<Mind> a comforting thoght
<Mind> thought*
<Eliezer> no, this Circle of Time
<eg0mech> yes. infinity is improbably infinite.
<Eliezer> http://sysopmind.com.../0104/0275.html
<Gordon> punch a hole in the middle and you've got a fun, exciting ride that, given no resistance, will take exactly 42 minutes to make a round trip
<Gordon> oops, or forces aside from gravity
<Eliezer> ah... so that was The Question
<caliban> Eliezer: hm... worth pursuing? well I'm no physicist. but thanks for the link, I'll try to digest it
<Eliezer> but... what the heck are you talking about?
<Eliezer> caliban: no, *not* worth pursuing
<Gordon> Eliezer: I think people say things like that just to tease you into reacting ;-)
<Mind> No teasing...I just wanted to know what Elizer thought about the characters my mind creates while dreaming. In my dream simulations, how much different are the characters from my conscious self?
<Gordon> for instance
<Eliezer> that is perhaps an unwise policy on their part, given my sense of humor
<eg0mech> The Oracle is funny.
<Gordon> hi, Eli, I'm working on a GAI and it's 90% done and I think that I want it to be as Unfriendly as possible and I like Ayn Rand
<Eliezer> Mind, I'd say that if they exist at all, they're all you - that's my answer
<Mind> I see
<MichaelA> heh
<caliban> Eliezer: hard to say sometimes what is worth pursuing... don't you thing stuff like Einsteins theory might be important to your "Singularity" ?
<Eliezer> caliban: I am saying this is known, total, and absolute bosh
<MichaelA> *his* Singularity? o.o
* Gordon puts away a joke so that he won't make a no no
<caliban> Eliezer : I do not understand: what is known and what means "bosh"?
<Gordon> you know, we need a password protected site just for me to make the no-no jokes
<MichaelA> He's saying that this stuff is nonsense
<MichaelA> What is known is that it is nonsense
<eg0mech> Eli, were those artifacts for a role playing game?
<caliban> What is nonsense?
<eg0mech> Or is that just your writing style that reminds me of a rule book?
<Gordon> bosh is something that taste really bad and that you don't want to eat but we're pretty sure it involves bastardizing cabbage
<Eliezer> eg0mech: Anders tried to adapt it for an RPG, but it was not originally so intended
<MichaelA> You mean my writing style in those two sentences, heh
<Eliezer> google on eternal clock sl4
<eg0mech> Heh, Data War?
<eg0mech> I'd like to get a game of that going.
<Eliezer> no, Anders's transhumanist RPG
<Mind> I think they are enough different from me that they will take a few actions I cannot predict or control.
* caliban is confused
<eg0mech> Ah, we should get a game going here on the server
<eg0mech> Nothing eats up time like RPG's on IRC.
<Mind> Has anyone heard from Memegineer lately?
<Mind> Does he have a new handle?
<Gordon> sounds like a bad idea to me
<Gordon> then I'll really not get stuff done
* Eliezer afks
<eg0mech> I'm right here Mind.
<BJKlein> Mind, nope havent seen Memegineer
<Mind> egomech=memegineer
<Mind> ??
<Mind> Kronenwetter
<Gordon> Mind: use your brain a little
<Memegineer> The same.
<Mind> typed it before reading
<MichaelA> Have y'all read all the imminst writing contest submissions?
<Memegineer> Although I'm heading in to wausau in a second here.
<Gordon> that's what I figured, but I've been saving that joke all evening
<Gordon> Michael: no
<Mind> Hey memegineer...another tornado in Wausau.
<Memegineer> Tonight?
<Mind> So many this year...it is strange
<Mind> No talking about last Monday
<Mind> labor day
<caliban> closed club now, hm
<Mind> The sirens have went off in Wausau 5 different times this year
<Mind> 2 tornado touchdowns
<Mind> wierd
<Memegineer> Not to mention the one in LadySmith that made national news.
<Memegineer> I have to leave.
<Mind> so you want to start a transhuman group in Wausau?
<eg0[away]> I'm working on it, I'm giving a panel at the SciFi convention.
<Mind> cool
<eg0[away]> keep in touch
<Mind> see ya
<eg0[away]> i'm here every day
<Guest> ?
<Mind> hello guest
<Guest> hello
<Guest> topic?
<MichaelA> there isn't an official one
<Mind> dreams...tornadoes....paleo diet
<Mind> RPG on IRC
<MichaelA> are you new to BJKlein.com or been around for a while?
<Guest> Have dropped by once or twice.
<Gordon> Michael: what's your involvement with immortality stuff anyway?
<Mind> So Michael...are you a programming wizard or something like that
<Mind> ??
<Guest> Be right back.
<Gordon> well, I mean more so: why are you involved in immortality stuff rather than just the Singularity
<MichaelA> no
<MichaelA> Mine?
<MichaelA> Why, because BJKlein asked me to
<MichaelA> I am not a programming wizard
<Mind> Do you program at all
<MichaelA> I am just starting to learn programming in depth, before this I only knew VB and HTML, now I am learning Java and C++
<Mind> cool
<Gordon> yes, I'm talking to you, Michael
<MichaelA> Just because I'm involved in a immortality organization
<MichaelA> Doesn't mean that I can't devote everything to the Singularity
<Gordon> okay, just wondering
<MichaelA> Links between Singularitarians and transhumanist newbies are essential for memetic purposes
<Gordon> true
<Gordon> this is why I stopped being trying to be a Singularity Writer
<MichaelA> Creating slipstreams from the far outside to the close inside greatly increases the recruitment rate
<MichaelA> Why?
<Gordon> I don't want to bring people up; I want to write about new things
<MichaelA> Well if I can increase the chance of the Singualrity happening more by writing old things, then I'm fine with that
<Mind> devotion to Biological Immortality eventually leads to an understanding of the singularity anyway
<MichaelA> But I can see how motivation can suffer with nonnovel material
<MichaelA> It does
<Gordon> even with my book, I'm writing it because I can't find clear, focused material on the subject of rationality
<MichaelA> And it's an important way to study memetic trends and show I'm a part of the community
<Mind> We are still human
<Mind> part of the community
<Gordon> in other words, there's stuff that it's written down anywhere publicly that I can point people to, like I do with my Singularitarian Reading List
<MichaelA> That's true, but to maximize the psychological impact of an idea, you need to diversify your approaches and try to sell the Singularity in dozens of different ways
<Gordon> right
<MichaelA> So it's not all straightforward boring copying
<Gordon> I'm not going to win over any soccer moms
<Mind> Pay a greedy salesman big bucks...and the singularity would be front page news
<Gordon> you might, though
<MichaelA> Hah, Mind, a better way to spreading the Singularity meme is the hard and slow way, emailing people and talking to them on forums
<Mind> Yeah...I know...I would like to try and harness our current meme to bring on the next
<MichaelA> Current meme being immortality..?
<Gordon> the Singularity: live for a longer infinity
<Mind> Get peoples' greed for more bananas (as Elizer would say) to work more efficiently towards the singularity\
<Gordon> greed for bananas is a second or third order desire
<Mind> yah yah...
<MichaelA> Would you like to write an article about that Mind, and submit it to me? :D
<Mind> but interrelated
<Mind> Maybe I will
<Mind> I tried to start my own business once
<Mind> It was tough
<MichaelA> I would be very interested to see what you have to say on the topic of Singularity memetics
<Mind> My fiancee said I wasn't greedy enough
<Mind> I wasn't mean enough
<Mind> To make it in the business world
<Mind> So I thought...in order to get people interested in the singularity
<Mind> I need to get the interest of greedy business people
<Mind> involved
<MichaelA> Perhaps
<Mind> *bad grammar
<Mind> on my part
<MichaelA> But greedy business people can't be Singularitarians
<Mind> I know
<MichaelA> Because as soon as they realized what was going on their entire worldview would collapse, sort of
<MichaelA> So it has to be businesspeople with collapsable worldviews
<Mind> Would it be ethical to mislead them into working towards the singularity
<MichaelA> Like "hey, cars and fancy dinners ain't what it's all about"
<MichaelA> They would make the decision on their own
<Mind> lol
<Mind> I know what you are saying about cars and stuff
<Mind> I used to be that type of person
<Mind> The only use I see now for garnering wealth is to bring about the singularity
<Gordon> it is very rarely ethical to lie
<Mind> lol
