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State order Cryonics Inst. to close - Michigan


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#1 advancedatheist

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 06:03 AM


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Cryonics Institute

State Orders Local Cryonics Institute To Close
Agency Says Facility Is Operating Without Proper License

POSTED: 4:57 p.m. EDT August 26, 2003
UPDATED: 6:03 p.m. EDT August 26, 2003


CLINTON TOWNSHIP, Mich. -- The Cryonics Institute has been ordered to stop operating its business by the Michigan Department of Consumer and Industry Services.

CIS said the institute is operating as an unlicensed mortuary science establishment and a nonregistered cemetery.

The governmental agency said it was made aware of the Michigan cryonics facility after the death of Baseball Hall of Fame inductee Ted Williams, whose remains are frozen in an Arizona cryonics facility.

Cryonics is defined as the process of freezing and storing the body of a recently deceased person to prevent tissue decomposition so that at some future time the person might be brought back to life upon development of new medical cures.

"Our investigation revealed the Cryonics Institute is clearly operating as both a funeral establishment and cemetery without any state oversight," said David C, Hollister, director of CIS. "We are extremely concerned that people from around the world have invested their trust and finances into this facility to preserve their bodies for eternity, yet this facility continues to knowingly operate outside the scope of the law."

The facility, located at 24355 Sorrentino Court, is being ordered to preserve the bodies currently in its care; however, it will not be able to accept any new contracts or bodies.

Hollister said CIS is encouraging the Cryonics Institute to take the necessary steps to come in compliance with state law.

The Cryonics Institute may become licensed either as a funeral establishment or registered as a cemetery; however, current law would prohibit the Cryonics Institute from being able to do both. The law stipulates that bodies cannot be prepared at the scene of a cemetery, however the institute could make arrangements for the bodies to be prepared in a licensed funeral home, according to CIS.

http://www.clickonde...929/detail.html

#2 Bruce Klein

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 08:18 AM

State orders Cryonics Institute to stop freezing bodies
Associated Press

LANSING, Mich. - The state on Tuesday ordered a company to stop freezing bodies after media reports surrounding the death of baseball legend Ted Williams alerted regulators that the practice was taking place in Michigan.

Considered a founding father of cryonics, Robert Ettinger has proclaimed the possibility of freezing and unfreezing people to extend their lives. He is president of the Cryonics Institute in Macomb County's Clinton Township north of Detroit.

But an investigation by the state's Department of Consumer and Industry Services found that the Cryonics Institute, which has frozen both people and pets, is operating an unlicensed mortuary science establishment and a non-registered cemetery.

Complete Article:
http://www.montereyh...rts/6623689.htm

#3 Jace Tropic

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 10:36 AM

Shouldn't it be possible that this sort of issue will eventually be taken to the courts and relegislated? Laws sometimes change with new circumstances don't they?

What's the premise that supports the logic that funeral homes and cemeteries must be seperate institutions?

Jace

#4 patrick

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 03:32 PM

Shouldn't it be possible that this sort of issue will eventually be taken to the courts and relegislated? Laws sometimes change with new circumstances don't they?

What's the premise that supports the logic that funeral homes and cemeteries must be seperate institutions?

Jace


Laws aren't made by logicians. I wouldn't expect too much.

This is probably an easily solved problem for the Cryonics Institute. I wouldn't blame CI for the shutdown, because there are simply too many laws and regulations to be in compliance with all of them.

However, if a single person is denied immortality as a result of this ridiculous action, I at least will hold it against David C, Hollister. Forever.


Patrick

#5 anti_transient

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 09:44 PM

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City of Lansing Mayor David C. Hollister was appointed as a Michigan Department of Consumer & Industry Services director in January, 2003 by Jennifer M. Granholm, the 47th Governor of the State of Michigan.


In 1974 David Hollister launched a successful campaign for the Michigan House of Representatives, where he served until 1993.


Michigan Department of Consumer & Industry Services Homepage


What I see here could quite possibly be a politician doing a little extra to further his career by conforming to the beliefs of the majority of our society. I'm sure he knows that the majority of people are not active supporters of cryonics, & in fact, aren't most people in this country Christians? If so, they wouldn't be in favor of cryonics, would they? So wouldn't shutting down a cryonics institute help gain the favor of the very people he wants to re-elect him? This is not a stupid man we're dealing with. I think David Hollister is the one who should be getting investigated, not the Cryonics Institute.

"Our investigation revealed the Cryonics Institute is clearly operating as both a funeral establishment and cemetery without any state oversight," said David C, Hollister, director of CIS. "We are extremely concerned that people from around the world have invested their trust and finances into this facility to preserve their bodies for eternity, yet this facility continues to knowingly operate outside the scope of the law."


He says that he's concerned about people investing their money into this, but he doesn't really say why. Well why not? Is it because there is no real logical reason why this shouldn't be happening, so the best he can do is shut it down using a technicality? [angry]

~Chris

#6 reason

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 11:03 PM

On the plus side, no such thing as bad publicity. The fight with the legislative establishment is something every non-comformist business plan has to go through when publicity reaches a certain level. We can just hope that this turns out better than recent episodes in France have done, and make our voices heard to offer support.

I'm planning to put something up on the Longevity Meme relating to this, but I really need to know more about what is going on and what sort of letter is useful to write to who to get attention.

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#7 Bruce Klein

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Posted 31 August 2003 - 02:21 AM

From CryoNet (James Swayze )

I'm certain that this can be worked out. In the meantime nobody die, please!

As usual the state is over stepping their bounds. I smell funeral
industry medling here, though I could be wrong... another misguided
sports fan maybe? At any rate they are wrong on so many levels it's
difficult to mention them all. But to begin with and mention but a few
CI operates under the anatomical gift act. It is not a cemetary because
the bodies are not rotting in the ground. The spirit of the funerary
laws and regulations being cited are to protect the public from disease
and contamination from the disolution of rotting bodies. I wonder, is
the state requiring that hospital morgues containing refigerated bodies
be licensed as cemetarys? If a preserved organ donation company started
up would they be likewise coerced?


Again we are the victims of the ambiguity of law and language. We do not
consider cryonics patients as dead but we must have them legally
pronounced so before doing the suspension procedure. I am confident that
CI can point out these things and several others to the state
functionarys. If it were me I'd be putting an investigator on the
principles involved to find any links to TW fanatics or the funeral
industry.

James

#8 Bruce Klein

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Posted 31 August 2003 - 02:23 AM

From: Ettinger@aol.com
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:41:56 EDT
Subject: Michigan issues


The Cryonics Institute is surprised and disappointed by the orders issued by
the Michigan Department of Consumer and Industry Services, which it believes
are completely unjustified.Since we have had the orders for only 24 hours, we
are still considering the precise courses of action that we will take,
including whether to proceed with litigation. However, the Department's orders,
which prohibit certain activities pending resolution of the licensing issues
raised by the Department, do not in any way affect the care of our current
patients. Moreover, while we strongly disagree with the Department's actions, we
note that the Department has stated that it does not wish to prohibit our
activities, but desires that they continue under the Department's licensing
process.While resolution of these issues proceeds, CI will continue to protect the
interests of its members. We will promptly keep you apprised as to further
developments.

In the event of litigation, we would welcome support in the form of
affidavits from cryonicists with academic credentials as well as any CI members. Please contact David Ettinger (dae@honigman.com) if you are interested in helping.

#9 Bruce Klein

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Posted 31 August 2003 - 02:28 AM

From: RUDIHOFFMA@aol.com
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:55:50 EDT
Subject: CI will prevail, but larger issue looms


Like many of you, I was "surprised and disappointed" (to use David Ettingers
lawyerly understatement) by the actions of one or several Michigan
"functionary(s) against the Cryonics Institute. In fact, I was more than this. I was
"outraged and disgusted" at the actions of the state.

With the good and professional people working with CI, however, we know this
will be worked out. CI will pay their necessary licensing (extortion?) to the
powers that be, define themselves legally as a mortuary, funeral home,
cemetery, scientific research facility, etc. And this will blow over. In all
likelihood, cryonics will once again generate substantial free public relations,
and higher public awareness.

Since most humans on the planet have NO idea that cryonics is even an OPTION,
much less an affordable one, it can be argued that almost ANY publicity is a
net positive for cryonics at this stage of the industry. And I have total
confidence in David and Robert Ettinger, David Pascal, Andy Zawacki and other CI
executives to handle the press and the government in this matter.

But, the larger issue pointed up by this outlandish action by the state of
Michigan is pretty obvious. We are an astonishingly small and dangerously
powerless group of cryonicist visionaries. We are engaging in personal choices
which a large number of people are very uncomfortable with. Many people would
consider the hubris we have to fight "natural" death to be sinful.

These folks could theoretically prohibit the very practice of cryonics, and
do this in any number of ways. A simple addendum tacked onto a Federal bill in
Congress, lobbying at the state level by Christian fundamentalists,
additional bad press causing cryonics to be overregulated by the state causing huge
costs which no cryonics organization could bear... the list goes on.

The take home message here is that another Cryonics summit is needed, with
part of the agenda involving "Scenario planning" to help protect this vital and
still embryonic movement. I would be willing to participate in such a
gathering, and add my thoughts along with many people with much bigger brains than me.

And/or we can have a thread on Cryonet devoted to this. But this would not
accomplish as much as was accomplished at the last "Cryosummit."

Observations?

Best Regards and Long Happy (and regulator free) life to all,
Rudi Hoffman

#10 Mind

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Posted 31 August 2003 - 01:08 PM

This case sure seems simple enough. Just figure out how to get licensed by the state , pay the dues, get on to saving lives.

However, it is not always so simple with the state/government. The quote from Hollister is typical in our times...

"Our investigation revealed the Cryonics Institute is clearly operating as both a funeral establishment and cemetery without any state oversight,"


The guy seems to have no clue about cryonics (the people are in stasis not rotting away), but he does know one thing...THE STATE MUST REGULATE!!!!!

It is no surprise that the state wants to regulate death, it is contiually trying to regulate every aspect of our life.

Vote Libertarian!

#11 Bruce Klein

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 05:29 AM

RE: Cryonics Institute Ordered To Stop Operations - World Transhumanist Association Offers Defense

Dear Attorney General Mike Cox,

The World Transhumanist Association (WTA) submits the following letter in defense of the Clinton Township, Michigan based Cryonics Institute (CI).

The WTA has recently learned that CI has been ordered to shut down by the Michigan Department of Consumer and Industry Services. As an organization which supports the use of advanced technology to improve the lives of all people, the WTA is puzzled and shocked by the recent action.

As a membership supported organization with dozens of chapters and affiliates in cities across North America and around the world, the WTA has a number of members who are signed up for cryonics including a number of who are signed up with CI. It is clear to us that CI has operated as an exemplary nonprofit organization for as long as we have know them.

For 27 years CI has operated as a 501©3 non-profit organization. All financial information is available to the public on IRS form 990. No CI director nor any member has ever been shown to have gained substantially from their work at CI.

Furthermore, we believe there is a clear difference between mortuary services and the service that the CI provides. CI works at maintaining people in cryostasis in the hope that they can be revived once technology permits the repair of their bodies and brains. Therefore it would be inappropriate to regulate CI under statutes governing mortuary services.

Thus the WTA asks that the Michigan Department of Consumer and Industry Services please reconsider its proposal to shut down the Cryonics Institute.

Thank you for taking the time to consider the above information. We will be happy to provide any further information which may help in making your decision.

Sincerely,
Bruce J. Klein

In conjunction with, and on behalf of fellow WTA Directors:

Chair, Nick Bostrom Ph.D.
Vice Chair, Giulio Prisco
Secretary, James Hughes Ph.D.
Treasurer, Mike Treder
Publications Director, Mark Walker Ph.D.
Michael LaTorra
Ziana Astralos
Eliezer Yudkowsky
Tarik Theo Ibrahim

Links:

State Orders Local Cryonics Institute To Close - http://www.clickonde...929/detail.html
Cryonics Institute (CI) - http://www.cryonics.org/
The World Transhumanist Association (WTA) - http://www.transhumanism.org/

#12 Bruce Klein

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 05:32 AM

Cryonics Institute Fights Freeze On Operations
State Says Company Isn't Licensed

http://www.clickonde...494/detail.html

A local business that freezes human bodies is fighting a state order to stop operating.

The Cryonics Institute in Clinton Township freezes dead bodies, hoping medical science can later discover ways to revive them. The Michigan Department of Consumer and Industry Services shut down the company's operations last month saying it is not licensed as a mortuary or cemetery.

The facility, located at 24355 Sorrentino Court, was ordered to preserve the bodies currently in its care; however, it will not be able to accept any new contracts or bodies.

The Cryonics Institute has now requested a hearing before an administrative law judge to challenge the state order.

The governmental agency said it was made aware of the Michigan cryonics facility after the death of Baseball Hall of Fame inductee Ted Williams, whose remains are frozen in an Arizona cryonics facility.

Cryonics is defined as the process of freezing and storing the body of a recently deceased person to prevent tissue decomposition so that at some future time the person might be brought back to life upon development of new medical cures.

The Cryonics Institute may become licensed either as a funeral establishment or registered as a cemetery; however, current law would prohibit the Cryonics Institute from being able to do both. The law stipulates that bodies cannot be prepared at the scene of a cemetery, however the institute could make arrangements for the bodies to be prepared in a licensed funeral home, according to CIS.

#13 Bruce Klein

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 09:16 AM

From David Ettinger:


The State of Michigan Department
of Consumer and Industry Services
has issued orders limiting CI's
activities pending its licensure
as a cemetery, which the Department
claims is required. CI has filed
papers indicating that it disagrees,
and stating that the orders (which
were not issued by a court) have no
effect, because the Department has
no jurisdiction over CI. Moreoever,
the orders have no impact on CI's
patient care.


CI cannot be more specific regarding
the resolution of these matters at this
time, because of the sensitive nature of
the legal process. However, CI is hopeful
that matters will soon be resolved favorably.
The State of Michigan has made clear in
its press release that it is not anti-cryonics
and believes that CI could continue to operate
successfully if licensed as a cemetery.

#14 Bruce Klein

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Posted 08 January 2004 - 04:55 PM

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Local Cryonics Institute Now Licensed As Cemetery
Nonprofit Organization Settles Dispute With State Of Michigan

http://www.clickonde...929/detail.html

A Clinton Township organization known as the Cryonics Institute is now licensed as a cemetery in a settlement with the State of Michigan.


The Michigan Department of Labor & Economic Growth (DLEG) Bureau of Commercial Services, and Cryonics Institute (CI) settled their dispute by the licensure of CI as a cemetery under Michigan law.

CI is a nonprofit organization that freezes dead bodies, hoping medical science can later discover ways to revive them, according to Local 4 reports. DLEG had shut down the company's operations in August, saying it was not licensed as a mortuary or cemetery.

The governmental agency said it was made aware of the Clinton Township facility after the death of Baseball Hall of Fame inductee Ted Williams, whose remains are frozen in an Arizona cryonics facility.

DLEG ordered the facility located at 24355 Sorrentino Court to preserve the bodies in its care; however, it would not be able to accept any new contracts or bodies.

Now that CI has been licensed, the cease and desist orders have been withdrawn.

"We are pleased that CI can now become a licensed facility, permitting state oversight of its operations," said David C. Hollister, Director of DLEG. "We believe that it's licensure as a cemetery provides additional protections to the people of the State of Michigan."

The agreement between DLEG and CI in permits the organization to continue operating as it has in the past, but it is now subject to audits, inspections and financial reporting.

CI will also segregate certain funds in an endowed care trust fund to cover maintenance expenses.

Additionally, CI has agreed that certain initial steps of the cryonic suspension process within the State of Michigan will only occur at licensed funeral establishments, conducted by licensed morticians. Such activities have in the past been conducted by licensed morticians at CI's facility.

Patients will still be stored at CI's facility in liquid nitrogen.

#15 jbmichaels

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Posted 09 January 2004 - 04:35 PM

There are a number of things that concerns me about this practice and also the concept of cryonic suspension. First item, how long. It would not be feasible to assume for x dollars you will be frozen forever. So as in all contracts, even in cemetaries, where you lease the ground for 100 years in some, there appears to be no fixed time limit. Secondly, there is a period at which is economically feasible and profitable to operate such a facility, much like a body pyramid scheme, yet just like a gym with too many members, soon it must rely on enormous new clients to continue to keep the pumps humming.

Businesses go bankrupt and so forth. Maintaining a cemetary where the upkeep is limited to moving the lawn and maintaining the grounds is far more doable than a myriad army of chugging machines.

Also, what happens upon wake up call. I.E. now science can revive the person. What is their place in that new society. Where will they live, what will they eat, what kind of financial arrangements have been made for them to have money or a profession with an education which may be dated by hundreds of years.

All in all, I feel one by one, the owners of such places will find ways to pull the plugs and creep quietly into the background while the cremation ovens hum along.
People are so very desperate when it comes to maybe having a chance, without realizing the very nature of economic institutions and practicality gives us no reason why in the end, they will be sustained or revived.

jb
ceo
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#16 reason

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Posted 09 January 2004 - 11:57 PM

All of these items are addressed in great detail in resources provided by the cryonics communities. You could start at:

http://www.cryonet.org
http://www.cryonics.org
http://www.alcor.org

Reason
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#17 jbmichaels

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 04:44 PM

I have a much better solution to the problem. Don't die. A colleague working at SF State has located one of the gene links which cause aging. In worms and mice it can lengthen the life span up to 6x or more.

My solution is forget being frozen. Don't die in the first place.

jb
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Crystalware

#18 reason

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Posted 04 April 2004 - 09:45 PM

I'm in full agreement with the "don't die" goal - but cryonics is a) an essential insurance policy in case it takes too long to beat aging, b) an ethical necessity - what about all those folks who aren't going to make it no matter how fast medical science advances?

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#19 quadclops

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Posted 11 April 2004 - 06:18 PM

No one in cryonics wants to be "frozen". But, no one can be assured that they will live long enough to see anti-ageing medicine succeed. No one can predict when they will die. This is an uncertain world, and many die unexpectedly.

Cryonics acts as a safety net, a buffer against the unexpected. Well, that's the hope anyway. [thumb]

#20 bacopa

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 03:34 AM

Wow...talk about increased paranoia on behalf of cryonics facilities this has just started to become a war now with alcor OY!

#21 kerr_avon

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Posted 05 May 2004 - 05:48 AM

"We are extremely concerned that people from around the world have invested their trust and finances into this facility to preserve their bodies for eternity, yet this facility continues to knowingly operate outside the scope of the law."


I found this humorous as it points out how ignorant (or disingenuous) Mr. Hollister is. "preserve...for eternity". That's the last thing the cryonicists want. I mean the whole POINT is to be woken up someday, not to be there forever.




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