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Why haven't there been any random mutations


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#31 caston

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Posted 15 July 2007 - 02:09 PM

It is difficult to find a flaw with Caston's argument that damaged DNA contributes to aging. Recent work reported by Nijnik et al in Nature (2007 Jun 7;447(7145):686-90) support the hypothesis that DNA damage accumulation leads to adult stem cell exhaustion. There is a consensus in the scientific community for a positive correlation between aging and DNA damage accumulation than not. What I have difficultly with is following Caston's reasoning  that aging is a consequence of the positive selection of sloppy DNA repair.


Well there is selection of DNA repair mechanisms just like there is selection of computer security (firewall and anti-virus) products. Not always the best one is the most successful in fact sometimes a very poor product becomes a market leader. Of course comparing economics and biology is not always a good analogy (especially if people that have a poor choice in security products also tend to have more children) but for what-ever reason there must be some trade off. What I would like to know is if the "decision" to use homologous recombination or Nonhomologous DNA end joining is in any way influenced by the mitochondria.

Near Perfect DNA repair would be at the expense of reproductive fitness?
Near perfect DNA repair would make little difference to reproductive fitness but would decrease the creation of new genes?

A page I found a while ago suggests that "DNA damage is the proximal cause of ageing"

http://www.gnxp.com/...ves/003722.html

Edited by caston, 15 July 2007 - 02:43 PM.


#32 bgwowk

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Posted 15 July 2007 - 05:50 PM

DNA damage is not *the* proximal cause of aging. However because I'm not an expert, and the time taken by what I thought would be a simple comment is beginning to contribute to my own aging process, I'm not going to debate it anymore. ;)

I also confess ideological bias against your hypothesis. It's bad enough that death of individuals is commonly excused as a necessity for natural evolution, as if blind evolution for evolution's sake was some kind of higher cause than individual lives. It would be another talking point for excuse makers if the mechanism of natural evolution itself, mutation, was a major contributor to the aging and death of individuals. I do not believe it is.

Edited by bgwowk, 15 July 2007 - 09:38 PM.


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#33 apoptosos

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 02:23 AM

It would be another talking point for excuse makers if the mechanism of natural evolution itself, mutation, was a major contributor to the aging and death of individuals.

If every idea had to pass the litmus test of "excuse maker" palatability we would shortly find that there was not much that we could discuss.. BTW, I did mean that DNA damage is a contributor - not the sole arbiter of aging.

Caston, I'm still unclear on why sloppy DNA repair would be an evolutionarily advantage.

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#34 caston

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 03:13 AM

Hi apoptosos, you are right to prompt me again. I'm trying to find the answers I don't have them!

I've been doing a little googling trying to find a link between sloppy "dna repair" and "gene creation". Of course this is all well over my head here but I'm not letting that stop me ;)

http://www.nature.co...EB0B0F1249DFBC1

"Human subtelomeres are polymorphic patchworks of interchromosomal segmental duplications at the ends of chromosomes. Here we provide evidence that these patchworks arose recently through repeated translocations between chromosome ends. We assess the relative contribution of the principal mechanisms of ectopic DNA repair to the formation of subtelomeric duplications and find that non-homologous end-joining predominates. Once subtelomeric duplications arise, they are prone to homology-based sequence transfers as shown by the incongruent phylogenetic relationships of neighbouring sections. Interchromosomal recombination of subtelomeres is a potent force for recent change. Cytogenetic and sequence analyses reveal that pieces of the subtelomeric patchwork have changed location and copy number with unprecedented frequency during primate evolution. Half of the known subtelomeric sequence has formed recently, through human-specific sequence transfers and duplications. Subtelomeric dynamics result in a gene duplication rate significantly higher than the genome average and could have both advantageous and pathological consequences in human biology. More generally, our analyses suggest an evolutionary cycle between segmental polymorphisms and genome rearrangements."

Now lets have a look at wikipedia for NHEJ:

http://en.wikipedia....ous_end_joining

"Nevertheless, NHEJ is often somewhat misleadingly referred to as an "error-prone" repair mechanism. This is likely because NHEJ can lead to translocations when organisms are subjected to large doses of radiation that cause many breaks per cell. Additionally, the NHEJ pathway is responsible for fusing the ends of chromosomes that have undergone telomere failure.[5] These translocations may result in incorrect gene regulation, and (ultimately) cancer"

That doesn't seem to provide any evidence for my hypothesis (if I manage to cleanly state one) at all.

Lets keep reading:

"Unlike typical cellular NHEJ, in which accurate repair is the most favorable outcome, error-prone repair in V(D)J recombination is beneficial in that it maximizes diversity in the coding sequence of these genes. This role of NHEJ has also contributed to its reputation as an error-prone DNA repair pathway. Patients with mutations in RAG-1, RAG-2, and Artemis are unable to produce functional B cells and T cells and suffer from severe combined immunodeficiency (SCID)."

So what is this V(D)J recombination?

http://en.wikipedia....J_recombination

Now i'm doing a little googling for "error prone" "dna repair"

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=16678112

"p53 and p21 regulate error-prone DNA repair to yield a lower mutation load.

Avkin S, Sevilya Z, Toube L, Geacintov N, Chaney SG, Oren M, Livneh Z.

Department of Biological Chemistry, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot 76100, Israel.

Regulation of mutation rates is critical for maintaining genome stability and controlling cancer risk. A special challenge to this regulation is the presence of multiple mutagenic DNA polymerases in mammals. These polymerases function in translesion DNA synthesis (TLS), an error-prone DNA repair process that involves DNA synthesis across DNA lesions. We found that in mammalian cells TLS is controlled by the tumor suppressor p53, and by the cell cycle inhibitor p21 via its PCNA-interacting domain, to maintain a low mutagenic load at the price of reduced repair efficiency. This regulation may be mediated by binding of p21 to PCNA and via DNA damage-induced ubiquitination of PCNA, which is stimulated by p53 and p21. Loss of this regulation by inactivation of p53 or p21 causes an out of control lesion-bypass activity, which increases the mutational load and might therefore play a role in pathogenic processes caused by genetic instability."

Lets look for a few more articles on TLS:

http://www.genesdev....full/16/15/1872

"Cellular DNA is continually damaged by a plethora of extrinsic and intrinsic sources, including UV light from the sun and reactive oxygen species resulting from aerobic respiration. Although cells possess a variety of repair processes to remove DNA lesions, lesions that escape repair can block the replicational machinery, and there has been little understanding of the mechanisms by which eukaryotic cells overcome such blocks and promote the continuity of the newly replicated DNA strand. The past three years, however, have witnessed phenomenal progress in this area of research, and here we highlight the important findings and major conclusions that have emerged regarding translesion DNA synthesis (TLS) in eukaryotes."


This is an interesting one on DNA damage bypass

http://asajj.roswell...air/bypass.html

"There are two reasons why it is important for the cell to be able to move replication forks past unrepaired damage. First, long-term blockage of replication forks leads to cell death. Second, replication of damaged DNA provides a sister chromatid that can be used as template for subsequent repair by homologous recombination."


Hey does anyone know anything more about the "inducible sos hypothesis"?

http://cat.inist.fr/...cpsidt=16815158


"Evelyn Witkin hypothesized in 1967 that bacterial cell division is controlled by a repressor which, like the lambda repressor, is inactivated by a complex process that starts with the presence of replication-blocking lesions in the DNA. She further suggested that this might not be the only cellular function to show induction by DNA damage. Three years later, Miroslav Radman, in a privately circulated note, proposed that one such function might be an inaccurate (mutation-prone) DNA polymerase under the control of the recA and lexA genes. Thus was born the SOS hypothesis"


Also:


Research Article
DNA lesions, inducible DNA repair, and cell division: three key factors in mutagenesis and carcinogenesis.
http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=1519422

I think the jury is still out on this and I need to do a lot more reading.

I also confess ideological bias against your hypothesis. It's bad enough that death of individuals is commonly excused as a necessity for natural evolution, as if blind evolution for evolution's sake was some kind of higher cause than individual lives. It would be another talking point for excuse makers if the mechanism of natural evolution itself, mutation, was a major contributor to the aging and death of individuals. I do not believe it is.


Good point but since when is evolution a higher cause? Maybe the whole point of evolution is that it eventually results in an individual that becomes conscious of itself and says "damn this thing is killing me lets turn it off now"

Edited by caston, 16 July 2007 - 05:39 AM.


#35 apoptosos

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 07:32 AM

Thanks for the detail and references, Caston. OK, sloppy DNA repair = gene mutation = immune diversity & evolution; but sloppy DNA repair = accumulated DNA damage = progeria, etc. Also, sloppiness seems to be under the control of some genes related to cancer.

Is this what you're getting at: the "sloppiness" is both good and bad?

#36 caston

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Posted 17 July 2007 - 09:16 AM

Thanks for the detail and references, Caston. OK, sloppy DNA repair = gene mutation = immune diversity & evolution;

It was quite lazy of me to post a bunch of stuff from google. I still need to read and really understand most of it myself. Did I actually manage to prove anything or are you just clarifying my position before you blow me out of the water?

but sloppy DNA repair = accumulated DNA damage = progeria, etc. Also, sloppiness seems to be under the control of some genes related to cancer.


You mean is "also equal to"?

Is this what you're getting at: the "sloppiness" is both good and bad?


Good that it created us but bad that its going to kill us. Does that make sense?

Actually right now I really want to read the SOS hypothesis. "Why the hell do cells divide in the first place?" is an important question on my lips right now.

Edited by caston, 17 July 2007 - 10:35 AM.


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#37 apoptosos

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 01:20 AM

Good that it created us but bad that its going to kill us. Does that make sense?

I think so, I'll have a shot. Your hypothesis is that organisms can never attain extremely long lifespans because sloppy DNA repair, which is a prerequisite for a healthy rate of evolution, will bring on aging as time goes on. There is one proviso that I can think of, and that is that germline cells are getting damaged at the same rate as all the other stem-like cells in the body but there is no evidence out there that suggests that these cells are privileged in this regard.

Actually right now I really want to read the SOS hypothesis. "Why the hell do cells divide in the first place?" is an important question on my lips right now.

The SOS hypothesis states that sloppy DNA repair becomes the preferred DNA repair strategy when cells are experiencing stress in order for an increase in the possibility of a positive mutation to occur. Do you think that there is a similar pro-sloppiness mechanism operating in advanced organisms? Is this under strict genetic control or can it be modulated by the environment?

When very old people are interviewed on their attitude to life they invariably talk about not taking things too seriously. I wonder if too much stress can bring about sloppy DNA repair?

#38 caston

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 02:04 PM

Thanks apoptosis,

Sorry for avoiding your questions right now but I have another on my mind:

Well do we really need whole body mutations just to have germ-line mutations?

#39 bgwowk

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 03:27 PM

Well do we really need whole body mutations just to have germ-line mutations?

Indeed. The germ line mutates, but doesn't age. Aging is not an intrinsic necessity for evolution.

#40 caston

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Posted 19 July 2007 - 04:07 PM

The germ line is a very interesting thing. I believe they (due to the expression of telomerase) have unending duplication that is they never reach senescence.
Anyone know if germline cells can experience apoptosis?
This is because it is not a threat to the individual. It is the only means the individual has of creating a new and separate individual instead of a cancerous growth.

Mutations in somatic cells are not passed on through the germ line, however, perhaps the capacity for mutation was inherited by somatic cells from the germline.

Edited by caston, 19 July 2007 - 04:27 PM.


#41 apoptosos

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Posted 20 July 2007 - 02:58 AM

Caston, germ line cells are maintained by a stem cell niche that is subject to the same paradigms of microenvironmental aging influences as other stem cells including the end points of senescence and apoptosis. But if one takes certain stem cell types out of the body and cultures them in specific conditions they will observe that some stem cells will continue to divide with no evidence of senescence. Bgwowk, would you agree that germ line stem cells do age in the body even though they appear not to age in culture?

Caston, the factors involved in stem cell genome mutation would hold true in all stem cell niches - all other things being equal there is no evidence from the literature to suggest that germ line stem cells are any more or less vulnerable to mutation than other stem cell types. I think this is why if the germline is affected so are the rest of the cells - because all cells are derived from stem cells.

#42 caston

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 03:25 PM

Thank you :)

#43 bgwowk

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 04:41 PM

Bgwowk, would you agree that germ line stem cells do age in the body even though they appear not to age in culture?

I don't know, but it's beside the point I was thinking of. What was going through my mind was that the cells of your body are a line of cells that has been continuously dividing for billions of years. Your cells have billions of years of accumulated mutations, but not billions of years of accumulated aging. Think about that. It's a really powerful illustration of what the basic machinery of life is capable of.

Granted, whether somatic cell aging is a side-effect of mechanisms that allow the germ line to mutate is a separate question. You can read epic past debates about the importance of mutation in aging here on Imminst, which I'm not going to reprise, except to say that I've chosen my side.

#44 apoptosos

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 06:21 PM

Not meaning to state the obvious, but there is no cell in any verterbrate lifeform known has ever divided for more than the alloted lifespan of its host organism, since with each conception event the genome becomes recombined and is epigenetically reset. The lineage of cells becomes interrupted with each generation and only some elements from each gamete get to persist with no continuum of division per se.

#45 eternaltraveler

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 06:47 PM

Not meaning to state the obvious, but there is no cell in any verterbrate lifeform known has ever divided for more than the alloted lifespan of its host organism, since with each conception event the genome becomes recombined and is epigenetically reset. The lineage of cells becomes interrupted with each generation and only some elements from each gamete get to persist with no continuum of division per se.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa

#46 eternaltraveler

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 06:54 PM

and far older

http://www.the-scien.../display/24286/

#47 bgwowk

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Posted 21 July 2007 - 07:46 PM

apoptosos is right that my "cell line" terminology was sloppy when applied to organisms that reproduce non-clonally, but the basic philosophical point about the resilience of life against aging as popularized by Mike West still stands. That the machinery of life can be put together in ways that are indefinitely self-renewing is a powerful proof-of-concept of the whole idea of biological immortality.

#48 apoptosos

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 04:21 AM

Elrond, do you think the examples you cited are representative of the cellular continuum in a vertebrate lifeform that I am referring to? HeLa cells are a tumor cell line that can only propagate in vitro and the canine cancer tumor cell line is either a eukaryotic parasite propagating independently of its multicellular host's genome or is the result of an oncogenic virus infection. I think you will find that when it comes to vertebrate life, unless the rare instance of parthenogenesis occurs, there is no mechanism that allows for the continuum of a single cell across a generation without the process of fertilization.

Bwowk, I am indeed awed by the extraordinary resilience of life which remarkably appears (in my limited physics understanding) to at times even defy the second law of thermodynamics! I agree there is evidence that biological immortality already exists on a single cell level, just as Elrond provided examples of above, and perhaps some simpler multicellular lifeforms.

#49 bgwowk

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 06:41 AM

I am indeed awed by the extraordinary resilience of life which remarkably appears (in my limited physics understanding) to at times even defy the second law of thermodynamics!

Not at all, because living things are not closed systems. Living things transfer entropy to the environment, and the environment radiates entropy as heat into space all the time. The entropy of the Earth was greatest at the time of its formation when it was a hot disordered ball, and it has been decreasing ever since.

I agree there is evidence that biological immortality already exists on a single cell level, just as Elrond provided examples of above, and perhaps some simpler multicellular lifeforms.

Many invertebrates reproduce clonally. Most plants are capable of clonal reproduction, and do it to varying degrees depending on circumstances.

Looking at the first page, the following article touches on many ideas in this thread

http://links.jstor.o...TOR-enlargePage

#50 caston

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 04:14 PM

apoptosos is right that my "cell line" terminology was sloppy when applied to organisms that reproduce non-clonally, but the basic philosophical point about the resilience of life against aging as popularized by Mike West still stands.  That the machinery of life can be put together in ways that are indefinitely self-renewing is a powerful proof-of-concept of the whole idea of biological immortality.


The machinery of life is immortal and ever changing. It almost seems that the maintenance of the individual is a process that involves fighting against the tide of the machinery of life.

#51 bgwowk

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 07:14 PM

It almost seems that the maintenance of the individual is a process that involves fighting against the tide of the machinery of life.

The lesson again and again in nature is that evolution drives toward immortality of individuals too. If you remove external predation, aging slows and life span increases. Let animals live long enough for longer intrinsic lifespans to be reproductively beneficial, and sure enough they'll evolve longer intrinsic lifespans.

#52 apoptosos

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 01:35 AM

I am indeed awed by the extraordinary resilience of life which remarkably appears (in my limited physics understanding) to at times even defy the second law of thermodynamics!

Not at all, because living things are not closed systems. Living things transfer entropy to the environment, and the environment radiates entropy as heat into space all the time. The entropy of the Earth was greatest at the time of its formation when it was a hot disordered ball, and it has been decreasing ever since.

If you put it like that it makes more sense. Cheers.

If you remove external predation, aging slows and life span increases.

It's not just external predation though, it's all environmental stress including abundance of food, infection and climate - I wonder if the common factor operating is the age of parents at conception? If a generation is more comfortable in its ecological niche it is more likely to produce offspring at older ages. With a comfortable niche established there would be less pressure, and therefore less energy required, for adaptation. One may speculate on the existence of epigenetic mechanisms operating that may dampen the rate of evolution in the progeny of older parents.

#53 bgwowk

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 03:02 AM

It's not just external predation though, it's all environmental stress including abundance of food, infection and climate

Yes, you are right. All extrinsic causes of death matter. Increase extrinsic lifespan, and intrinsic lifespan will follow.

There is this popular idea that aging is natural. It's not. Aging is what you get when you suddenly reduce extrinsic mortality, as we have done in the developed world where extrinsic life expectancy is now approaching 1000 years. This happened very quickly. So we have rampant aging, which is a very unnatural thing. Left to her own devices, nature herself would would get rid of this aging because living long enough to perish from extrinsic causes is what's really natural, not aging.

#54 apoptosos

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 11:33 PM

Left to her own devices, nature herself would would get rid of this aging because living long enough to perish from extrinsic causes is what's really natural, not aging.

If we could obtain a child from 10,000 years ago, a time when the average lifespan would have been a 20-25 years, and placed this person in today's society then we should see the lifespan extend to a modern average: a 4x increase. In contrast, animals in captivity show a lifespan increase of 2x at best but in the cases of the longer lived mammals such as elephants and whales one sees a decrease in lifespan. Your hypothesis makes sense but how would you use evidence from animal lifespans to support it?

#55 caston

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 04:49 PM

I was reading something that gave me a few ideas. Apoptosos isn't just to guard against cancer but it is also an important function of the immune system allowing it to shut down diseased cells. How many of the mutations that occur in a cell allowing it to keep replicating and ignore death signalling are actually random and how many were actually caused by a virus attacking these specific mechanisms from inside the cell?

There may be a very important link between virus's and ageing that we need to draw.

http://biology.about...y/aa121400a.htm

http://en.wikipedia....rus_cancer_link

Could there also be a link between virus's and evolutionary mations?

Disease, aging, cancer... all in a single united war?

Edited by caston, 30 July 2007 - 05:32 PM.


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#56 Ganshauk

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 08:46 AM

Why haven't there been any random mutations

Who says there hasn't?

There is also a correlation that is coincident at worst and directly related at best, which reflects a form of genetic selection for longevity and that can be inferred from the selection process for intelligence.

I disagree.

In every species where we observe increasing intelligence over the fossil record we also seem to seem a correlation of increased brain mass to body weight that corresponds with a longer gestation period, and longer rearing period from potentially older parents, which often are in social groups.

At a species level, yes. However, consider the octopus and the terrapin. Octopi are very intelligent and live but a fraction of the lifespan of a tortoise. Neither have the benefit of a sophisticated social structure, so there is one variable we can tenatively dispose of. They are both ancient in the fossil record, so there goes another variable. The largest terrapins live for hundreds of years. The poor octopus, not so much.

I have had a few turtles as pets. They aren't stupid. They definitely knew who I was and after awhile, you could tell that they had recognition capabilities (which indicates long term memory) and could even learn a few "tricks". On the other hand, I have never had a pet octopus, but I know of several experiments done with them. They tend to push the envelope when it comes to bestial intelligence. Recognition, problem solving, and some indications of inductive reasoning and even indications of tool usage.

These longer gestation/growth periods also appear to correspond to longer developmental biologies that correspond to longer lived species.  This is certainly true in large mammals and not just the case of the naked mole rat.  Elephants and large whales also have very long life expectancies relative to their forebears and they also represent species that dominate their food chains often through intelligent social behavior and have life expectancies that increased with their brain/body mass ratios.

This seems to be true on the surface, but only if homo sapiens enter into your equation.

Remove humans from your calculations and tell me what you find.

The longest lived animals rely not on social structure, nor intelligence, gestation period, or anything else.

The longest lived animals are those that are outside the foodchain. Sharks, Turtles, Alligators, Parrots...Humans. You might say "at the top" of the foodchain but basically nothing hunts these creatures and these creatures imbibe from all possible layers. Thus, some species are outside the chain. I could probably think of more if I tried. Im just thinking of the longest lived animals.

Its interesting to note that many of them have remained unchanged (almost) over millions of years (except mammals, which change faster than anything else, IMO).

There is some logic to the idea that evolving intelligence requires a longer life expectancy to expand its learning curve and develop the opportunities of intelligence that express its advantages in terms of environmental competition for resources.

Logically, maybe. Such suppositions just cant be supported when you look over the epochs instead of the millenia.




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