26 replies to this topic

[Karomesis]

Correct me if I'm wrong here guys, but isn't SENS a literal way to stop/reverse the aging process?

We should be shouting it from the rooftops and using as many props as possible to describe and or translate what this concept means for the everyday person. What we REALLY need is a marketing arm to drum up as much hype/publicity as possible. We need videos of CR mice and monkeys distributed "virally" as Michael was saying in the leadership forum about his book. People can't relate to complex topics in academic tones, they need simple correlative concepts that hint at the incredible potential of what we can achieve in the VERY near future. If a picture is worth 1000 words, a video is worth 1,000,000.

Marketing is everything with this, the book due out next month on aging is probably excellent and concise, but if no one picks it up then we have a problem don't we? I don't mean to come down hard on Aubrey/Michael who wrote the book, but it only confirms my belief that we need more marketing/hype. This is a book that for all intents and purposes says we may very well have humanities oldest adversary within our sights, something that has spawned religions, divided cultures, and entire hemispheres have lusted for since the beginning of recorded history, it should virtually sell itself. But to be frankly honest, don't you think we could've gotten a better cover for it?

[Luna]

Sorry, later.
We wanna die.

..

..

At least it seems to me that the human race is suicidal.. but everyone claim I'm strange so don't take my word.

Well you must also remember that since the day people are born they are told "you are gonna die, you are ALL GOING TO DIE and nothing you do can stop it."
It kinda does something to people.. just like the bible!

[Live Forever]

Sounds good, karomesis. I don't think you will find any disagreement from us!

[Mind]

Thanks for the prodding Karomesis

[Liquidus]

The majority of human beings believe in fairy-tales and supreme beings from beyond the great unknown. With that said, those who challenge conventional wisdom and thought are in the minority. It's a losing battle on a large scale, but every time someone 'sees the light', it's one more supporter.

Lets keep in mind that we're still a little head of ourselves (and surely way ahead of joe not-informed shmoe). Once nanotechnology gets off the ground, and once computational power/AGIs start becoming more of a reality, people may start to open up their mind to the potential power of technology for good use.

Since introducing my brother do Dr. de Grey's videos (amongst other life-extension/technology videos), he's changed his plans for University (he's going next year), and he now wants to get into the only Nanotechnology program in our entire province (15+ Universities).

Let's also try and remember that each new generation born into society will likely be more liberal (in their views/acceptance of tech) as they grow up and are exposed to the advancements of technology at a younger age. So as they grow up, technology will be 'nurtured' as an asset to them, and they will more likely (at least compared to today) be accepting of technology. My brother is proof of this, and I'd be shocked if in 15-20 years more and more young people didn't want to jump right into this knowing the stakes.

Nanotechnology is absolutely mind-blowing when you sit and analyze everything. To have a sibling who wants to jump right into the field with aspirations (knowing the urgent need for life-extension), is insipiring to me, and I expect more people like him to start popping up as such things like Gene Therapy/Nanotechnology (key at the moment for life-extension) become cheaper, and more diverse in terms of application.

Edited by G Snake, 23 August 2007 - 07:52 PM.

[Liquidus]

Marketing is everything with this, the book due out next month on aging is probably excellent and concise, but if no one picks it up then we have a problem don't we? I don't mean to come down hard on Aubrey/Michael who wrote the book, but it only confirms my belief that we need more marketing/hype. This is a book that for all intents and purposes says we may very well have humanities oldest adversary within our sights, something that has spawned religions, divided cultures, and entire hemispheres have lusted for since the beginning of recorded history, it should virtually sell itself. But to be frankly honest, don't you think we could've gotten a better cover for it?

Aubrey seems to believe (much like I do), that this book might be the first major piece of the puzzle to be put in. He's going to be on Good Morning America in a few weeks, and everyone is optimistic.

I think key to this theme is the rate of progression. I'm not familiar with how fast these paradigms shift (ending aging being the relevant one), but is it at all reasonable to assume that much like technology, a controversial initiative such as the ending of aging has a rate of progression that's exponential? There's a good possibility that it might be, especially when you consider that vaguely speaking, curing aging is dependent on the technologies that can provide the therapies.

First 7.5 years into Genome project = 1%
Last 7.5 years into Genome project = Remaining 99%

[Karomesis]

I think key to this theme is the rate of progression. I'm not familiar with how fast these paradigms shift (ending aging being the relevant one), but is it at all reasonable to assume that much like technology, a controversial initiative such as the ending of aging has a rate of progression that's exponential? There's a good possibility that it might be, especially when you consider that vaguely speaking, curing aging is dependent on the technologies that can provide the therapies.

G Snake, you won't get too many arguments from me about the "rate of progression" or "paradigm shifts" and I agree with most of what you said; but this is about the average joe who you would've definitely lost as soon as those words left your mouth. And that's precisely my complaint, not enough simplification and too many "buzzwords" that are completely unknown to anyone outside of serious academic circles.

I can promise that people DESPERATELY want to have hope as far as life extension goes, if we can reach just a glimmer of that hope that exists in 99% of homo sapiens then we cure aging much, much, faster.

I tell everyone I talk to (if they'll listen) about the fascinating development occurring right now, and that with their help, some funding, and some smart as hell scientists we CAN make this happen.

[dimasok]

I agree. This is the stuff of the best science-fiction stories and no one seems to be excited since they all accepted their dire fate... i truly hope that someday civilization will be the way we want to see it, informed or not.

[Liquidus]

... but this is about the average joe who you would've definitely lost as soon as those words left your mouth.

As much as I hate to admit it, you're right. I don't mean to sound like an elitist, but it's true, most people just aren't really in touch with reality, and even to the extent where the term paradigm shift is intimidating to the average Joe.I think I'm better at discussing things in person because people see how brutally honest I am, and I tend to force myself to dumb things down for people since it's fairly easy to lose someone when you talk about anything that requires the functioning of the brain.

Like Dawkins says, most people are on the fence either way about something. Of course there are a small portion of people that are on the extreme ends of each side, but for the most part, the majority of people can be convinced of something if they're exposed to it rationally.I'm willing to assume that most people in civilized societies would be willing to accept the curing of aging if they were shown just how feasible it is. Unfortunately, to some people, curing aging seems to be offensive to religions and traditions, and because of that reason, people are instantly skeptical and biased towards it, and since there haven't been any major breakthroughs in terms of research, they'll be even more reluctant.

I guess the nature of the beast is that until we see the first few breakthroughs (most likely will result by accident, or through the M-Prize initiative), people will carry that self-righteous ignorance when you try to introduce the notion of life-extension.

If you show someone an article of an M-Prize winner that stated 'Mice average life-span is 3 yo, scientists engineered mice to live to be 20', THEN it will be easier to convince the 'fencers' that this concept is completely feasible, and completely realistic.

Until then, I'm not sure I know personally of another way to convince the average Joe that life-extension and curing aging is something we should all be striving for. Our biggest friend, and worst enemy right now is time. It's going to take time to achieve the breakthroughs, yet, we're fighting time in order to apply this concept.

Aubrey being on Good Morning America (and hopefully more shows that the 'fencers' watch), is a good stepping stone into reaching into the fence audience and planting the seeds of curiosity. For me, I didn't jump in, I was slowly, and curiously interested in learning more, and now, well I'm all the way in, and now I realize just how important this is.

[dimasok]

Imagine how hard it would be to explain them the singularity... I think it would be more difficult than actually engineering it lmao

[Liquidus]

Imagine how hard it would be to explain them the singularity... I think it would be more difficult than actually engineering it lmao

This is the first time I've actually bursted out laughing on this forum. That's such a ridiculous claim that I actually agree with you. I've tried explaining it vaguely to my mom and she almost slapped me haha.

[kevin]

You don't need to convince everybody... just a few..and critically just those few who are willing to ACT.

Don't look at the mountain.. look for the pass.

[brokenportal]

Yes, yes, yes, more marketing, we all know this. I know this. I try to get people to help me with my marketing, but to know avail. I have a list of simple ideas going at http://groups.msn.co...ensionmarketing Please help me there. Why dont people do more in general? Why dont people try to spread sens like they were dying? Oh wait they are, but why? I dont know, even we dont. I think we need to get together more. Does anybody have a task I could perform to help life extension if I lived close to them? Anybody who proposes something I could do to help their sens research or projects or awareness raisers or whatever, I will move to your town. Let me know.

[Athan]

I agree that marketing SENS and life extension in general is necessary, but it's quite difficult, isn't it? I can't imagine going around my school and saying, "Hey, did you know that if you give x amount of money to help with this project called SENS you may actually live forever?" Perhaps it's just the way I phrase it, but it reminds me of the Catholic Church.

I'm not saying that giving money is the only way you can help, or anything. It's just that - as Dr. de Grey said himself in one of his presentations - he advocated "evangeliz[ing]". Once again, I agree. It's just that it's very similar to the way priests agree amongst each other that they are right and that they should evangelize.

So this raises the question: How does one spread the word in a scientifically sound way, compress it to keep people's attention, and generally avoid proselytizing in a seemingly fanatical way? Just trying to look at this through the eyes of someone who does not fully subscribe to the idea of physical immortality.

I have to agree with Kevin in that it's the key people we have to convince. This inspires mainstream scientific backing which will greatly help convince the layperson that are ideas aren't hopelessly far-fetched (I don't think they are, just trying to look at this objectively).

(Edited for grammar)

[brokenportal]

I think we just need to advertise in all forms in general. From posters to little seminars held at schools explaining it and stuff like that. I think we should just collaborate and do whatever small stuff we can and try to brainstorm and work our way up to being able to do the biggest advertising we possibly can.

I compile ideas at http://groups.msn.co...ensionmarketing Please help me toss ideas around in there.

[kevin]

Yes, yes, yes, more marketing, we all know this. I know this. I try to get people to help me with my marketing, but to know avail. I have a list of simple ideas going at http://groups.msn.co...ensionmarketing Please help me there. Why dont people do more in general? Why dont people try to spread sens like they were dying? Oh wait they are, but why? I dont know, even we dont. I think we need to get together more. Does anybody have a task I could perform to help life extension if I lived close to them? Anybody who proposes something I could do to help their sens research or projects or awareness raisers or whatever, I will move to your town. Let me know.

Set up an information booth on your lunch hour in public places.. universities, shopping malls, etc.. and don't ask people for money.

KP

[niner]

Set up an information booth on your lunch hour in public places.. universities, shopping malls, etc.. and don't ask people for money.

I dunno. This sounds like a pretty short step from wearing orange robes and handing out free copies of the Bhagavad Gita.

[Athan]

I dunno.  This sounds like a pretty short step from wearing orange robes and handing out free copies of the Bhagavad Gita.

That's what I was trying to say. We need to figure out a way to distribute the science of biogerontology, nanotechnology and other related items in a respectable way. Personally, I think the most effective would be a short television commercial that is packed full of scientific information that will A. impress the layman and B. get the layman thinking. Unfortunately, that's rather tedious and expensive...

[theone]

"I can't imagine going around my school and saying, "Hey, did you know that if you give x amount of money to help with this project called SENS you may actually live forever?"

Why not?

Mormons and Jehovah witnesses send their preachers out into the world. Just in the last 3 weeks I had 2 Mormons and 1 Jehovah witness come to my place of residence. This movement should learn a few things from these organizations. They out number us by the millions. They are also better organized and more devoted.

In my opinion if you give people something to believe in they will come, but only if they hear you preach.

A perfect example is Benny Hinn Ministries
This evangelist has millions of flowers because he gives them hope. I am not saying that we give anyone false hope, but our predictions of the future do give hope of a better world.

[Athan]

Perhaps I was speaking too personally and you're right, theone. It's just that if a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness comes to my door and says, "Hello I'm representing Mormonism/Jehovah's Witnesses" I would shut my door in their face. Perhaps it's just my point of view, but door-to-door 'street preaching' is not universally respected in the least. Our views on physical immortality are based on more scientific things rather than unverifiable views (such as religion), and to me it seems like we're stooping to their level...

However, if it works it works. I'm not too experienced in such things and in reality a fair few do, perhaps, listen.

[John Schloendorn]

Correct me if I'm wrong here guys, but isn't SENS a literal way to stop/reverse the aging process?

Well, no... It's a *proposed* strategy to do so, and that's what makes people justly skeptical. Shouting from rooftops certainly helps. Just don't expect it to be as easy as it would be if it was "a literal way".

[Athan]

Well, no... It's a *proposed* strategy to do so, and that's what makes people justly skeptical. Shouting from rooftops certainly helps. Just don't expect it to be as easy as it would be if it was "a literal way".

Perhaps until SENS hits the mouse barrier in the future we should focus on more preemptive work? As in, trying to reverse the fatalist attitude of "we're all going to die, and there's nothing we can do about it." Rather than purporting SENS explicitly, we should focus on more general topics backed by knowledge. One of the best statements you could, perhaps, make is that aging is NOT encoded into our genes or that it is possible to stop the process. A lot of people think both the former and the latter, and just making posters like that and saying that science is progressing to end aging would help. We should cite the Mprize and SENS (in big letters, of course ), but maybe taking a more general approach would be better at the moment, to deteriorate false concepts?

[Liquidus]

I took into consideration the idea put forward by some people in this thread, that finding the right people is more important than finding as many people.

With that being said, I offer my knowledge of a website that I have been told multiple times is legitimate, I've never used it personally, so I can't confirm:

http://www.contactanycelebrity.com/

It was featured by a great author in a NY-Times best seller, and it's been mentioned on CNN (although I'm not sure if that helps or hurts it's legitimacy ).

[Luna]

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM!!!!1!1!one!1!ne!1!e!1111

That's pretty much where the hype is.

[maestro949]

It seems like a bit of a chicken/egg conundrum. People aren't going to pay much attention to those carrying on about life extension until they see some hard evidence that it is feasible. Hard evidence will not emerge until a significant number of people are paying attention to it as a legitimate issue.

[John Schloendorn]

It seems like a bit of a chicken/egg conundrum.

Yes, exactly. It is the type of problem that doesn't just go away by itself.

Perhaps until SENS hits the mouse barrier in the future we should focus on more preemptive work?

Well, Athan, this is a tough problem. I can only speculate what's "best". I think talking, distributing flyers and such doesn't make sense for 99% of the population. If there was the sort of evidence they require, then they'd see it on TV and believe in it and there would be no need for flyers. However, there is some sort of evidence that ~1% of the population are unusually susceptible to "the meme" for some reason or another (Badger 1998 and me 2005, both journal of evolution and technology). I think flyers and such are worth the trouble if they purposefully target these 1%, trying to put them to work and more or less ignoring what the 99% might think. 1% is a whole lot of people after all. Alternatively, of course, try to make a difference directly. Repairing the damage may be hard, but it is nowhere near as hard as trying to solve the problem in any other way. I think far less than 1% of all bio people has a huge chance to get the technology to the point where 99% will jump on.

[theone]

Why not instill fear in people.

Here is my story:

I believe I was about 8 years old when one of the students at my school was diagnosed with cancer. At the time I was going to a Catholic school. We all prayed and wished her a speedy recovery, but she ended up dying. Over 20 years later and the emotions of that moment still can be felt. Here is the thing. She was never a close friend nor did I have any emotional connection to her.
What I did realize that day is that life is not infinite. It's hard to put the emotions into words, but it was a day of a wakening.

Now how do we get the general public to realize that life is not infinite and one day we will die if proper measures are not taken.

What I was thinking is a documentary show casing the horrors of death. Show what Alzheimer's disease does to a person. Show what the family has to go through. Show how devastating Cancer really is. I am talking about imagery here. Like a family member changing a catheter a diaper or spoon feeding the loved one. Make it graphic enough that it gets the point across, but not to the point of turning people away. We would need to find participants willing to share the last days of their lives with us. The family would also have to be onboard. Lets also not forget the psychological effects this would have on the film makers.

Finally the problem with society is that we hide death and sickness. I guess this helps us believe that we are immortal in some way. We simply don't want proof that death is all around us.

Edited by theone, 27 August 2007 - 05:05 AM.