• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans


Adverts help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. To go ad-free join as a Member.


Photo
- - - - -

Emortalism 102 - Till Noever


  • Please log in to reply
50 replies to this topic

#1 till

  • Validating/Suspended
  • 63 posts
  • 0
  • Location:Brisbane

Posted 12 September 2003 - 08:46 AM


Emortalism 102

Meaning, Context, Identity, Sex and Other Curiosities.


After wading through endless philosophical waffle about what ‘meaning’ means, and finding mostly the usual circular definitions and the equally ubiquitous panoply of jargon (a.k.a. ‘yuk-speak’), I finally, some ten years ago, came to terms with the word; maybe not in a philosophical sense but on a personal level. As a result and to introduce the subject, let me start off this article by taking a swing at another bit of immortalist hype: we can, in principle, and in due course in practice as well, ‘download’ whatever constitutes our ‘mind’ into another computational medium but the human brain.

It’s crap. It won’t happen. It can’t happen: not even in principle. Even the functionalist persuasion of cognitive philosophers wouldn’t really believe it, if only they thought about what they’re saying for more than a nanosecond. The same, by the way, goes for the cryonics crowd. The notion of ‘restarting’ a brain or ‘mind’ after freezing is fantasy. You might be able to ‘restart’ a frozen nematode or even a frog (I forgot the species), but, let’s face it, you have no way to figure out if, insofar as a worm or a frog can be said to have a ‘mind’, resumption of biological functioning and/or cognitive operations (defecate, hump or get humped, identify food and catch, etc) is actually any indication at all of continuity of whatever may have been or now constitutes the creature’s ‘identity’.

Why is ‘mind downloading’ nonsense?

First of all, let’s be clear about the basic assumptions underlying this truly idiotic notion. (Sorry, but ‘idiotic’ is the minimal attribute I can think of. Nothing else even comes close.)

1) A ‘mind’ and its current ‘state’ can be sufficiently and essentially ‘completely’ described by a set of physical state descriptors.

2) The complete set of descriptors can, even in principle, be stored in any appropriate computational medium, even if that medium is not a human brain.

3) The complete set of descriptors can, even in principle, be transferred into any computational medium that is functionally equivalent to the human brain and ‘run’ in that medium without loss of whatever qualifies as the ‘identity’ of the mind thus ‘transferred’.

The three items are listed in order of logical dependence; meaning that if 1 isn’t true then 2 & 3 of the others cannot be true, and if 2 is not then 3 can’t.
Let’s look at 1 and start with what we think of a ‘mind’. Here’s another killer , of course, because nobody knows; or, to be more precise, everybody thinks they kind-of know—sort of, maybe, possibly…

In lieu of such knowledge, which nobody has, it’s much easier to define what ‘mind’ is, which is, of course, exactly what the computer-phile transhumanists do. They define the mind—and anything associated with it, like ‘identity’, ‘consciousness’ and so on—as the current functional state of the human brain. If this were so, then, in principle it could be ‘described’ by reference to the complete physical state-parameters of the brain, right?

No. Not even then.

[Sidebar: (skip over this until later, if you want to follow the original train of thought!)

I’ll leave out what you might call the ‘technical’ issues involved in transcribing into any computational medium the preposterously complex state spaces mapped out not only by the neural network in our heads, but also by the additional state-spaces—of unknown dimensionality, and we don’t even begin to have a notion of their complexity!—mapped out by the biochemical and electrical environment in our heads. These technical issues alone are so huge as to be, for all practical purposes and a very long time to come, insurmountable. Add to that another factor, namely that the functionality of the human mind is also determined by the precise mechanics of the system within which it operates, this is the brain and the body.

“Ah,” say the transhumanists, “but you forget that we are trying to overcome those limitations. We want to be faster, more efficient, less error-prone and so on.”

Why thank you for mentioning it, because you help me to make my point—which is that indeed such a transplanted mind will definitely not be human, but a mere parody. A faster, more efficient, etc parody, but still a parody. The question then is: ‘If whatever constitutes your ‘self’ were transferred into such an environment and the moment it was switched on, would ‘you’ still be ‘you’ or just the parody?’

End of Sidebar.]

The problems with defining what ‘mind’ (‘self’, ‘consciousness’, ‘identity’) actually ‘is’ is that it is not just probably but certainly incomplete, possibly fatally so. I don’t think that even transhumanists believe for a moment that what they propose is true. For any transhumanist who thinks different, let me propose the following thought experiment:

Suppose (as is in principle possible, though the technology will have to wait a bit) that you were selected as a subject for ‘quantum teleportation’. That’s the closest thing you’ll come to a Star Trek ‘transporter’ device.

The thing will work like this:

You’ll be subjected to a ‘scan’ that completely gathers all information about the state of your physical body: every atom, to within the limits of uncertainty principle, will be recorded and the information about its states stored somewhere. Then this information will be transmitted to somewhere else using some nifty technology, where a ‘reconstruction device’ will take that information and reconstruct a complete likeness of you.

Assume the device has been tested on other humans. Assume you’ve spoken to such ‘transported’ humans, and found that they appear, indeed to be the ones that went into the ‘transmitter’.

It’s your turn now.

The catch? Well, in order not to overpopulate the Earth and to avoid administrative problems and all that, the person that goes in to the ‘transmitter’ has to be annihilated. In fact that’s what’s done: before they start scanning, just so you hold still and all that, they anaesthetize you, so your reproduced self comes out anaesthetized as well, and that makes everything nice and symmetrical. Your body on the transmitting table, now surplus, will be consigned to a recycling bin, where they mash it up and re-use the materials for reconstituting someone else who is sent the other way. Gotta get the raw materials from somewhere, right?

So hands up who would go into that transmitter and allow himself to be ‘put under’! Any ‘transhumanists’ who don’t should probably declare themselves as cured of transhuman predilections as of this moment. I mean, if you can’t even be happy with having your body copied to the last decimal place, then how could you ever suggest that a measly subset of it, the ‘mind’, which you obviously consider simple enough to claim that you have even the remotest understanding of it, could be transferred into a computer.

Who had their hands up?

I thought so…

Next question: apart from just not wanting to be shown up as having taken a really stupid position with regards to their understanding of their humanity or what they want from it…who of you actually means it?

Even if someone could make a perfect copy of you, would that copy be really you?

That’s the question we’re asking here, and I suppose the more simple-minded would nod eagerly (though I’d still like to see them vote with their feet and go into that transmitter chamber!), because, after all, a perfect copy of a program is still the same program, right?

Right.

So what are we forgetting?

Two things: ‘continuity’ and ‘context’.

‘Continuity’ means temporal-spatial ‘uninterruptedness’. It means that though, if you, say, took snapshots of a person one year apart, it would be true that they are indeed physically and mentally very different from the person they were before, the fact is that from one instant to another and from one spatial location to another the changes in them are essentially incremental, in such a way that a perceptual notion of ‘continuity’ is preserved. This may not be true, of course, if, say, we were anaesthetized—and indeed there’s nothing in the world that could prove to us that the person waking us is really still really the same person that went under the anesthetic; which is probably the reason why most people feel basically uncomfortable about being ‘put under’. It could even be argued that it happens in sleep all the time, so what’s the problem? Should you stop sleeping?

But the fact is that all the available evidence points to continuity of existence throughout sleep, continuity of mental processes (just not necessarily ‘conscious’) and of the body. A sleeping person, though they may not consciously know it, still feel the world around them through their sensory apparatus, and I suspect that, though only subconsciously, they are aware of their continued existence—which is why nobody seems to be unduly disturbed by going to sleep. The same may apply to periods of unconsciousness caused by other agencies: trauma, anesthesia, temporary cessation of cardiac function, etc.

This however does not apply to the ‘transfer’ of minds, or even ‘transporter- like devices. There is a true discontinuity of existence here, and this is equivalent to death, at least in my book—and, I suspect, secretly in the ‘books’ of most wannabe transhumanists, too.

Then there is that vexed issue of ‘context’, which is related to ‘continuity’ in some respects, though its significance is much vaster.

Think of ‘context’ as the ‘environment of existence’ of whatever it is you’re talking about. In the human case that’s first of all the brain/body complex—and not just the perceived body but the actual constraints imposed on the mind by being associated intimately with a body!—and then what you might call ‘the world’ around us. Contrary to popular and a lot of addle-minded academic thinking the mind–body–external-world context is not something that can be separated. The mental is supervenient on the physical and vice versa, and there is actually no definite barrier between mind and body and world.

[Sidebar: If you don’t believe me, try to find the barrier, the dividing line between your ‘inside’ and what’s ‘outside’. You think maybe the senses are? Fine, then tell me where, say in the visual system, in the path from external world to your ‘inner’, cognitive universe is the barrier? At the lens? The retina? The optic nerve? Visual cortex? Where? Or, show me one single thought of yours that is not referenced or linked in some way to some aspect of your body-sense or symbols or representations that relate to external-world percepts! Meditators often claim they do, of course, but some probing usually reveals their folly.]

The point is that Mind is defined by its context. Change the context and you change the mind. The individual human mind is defined to a great degree by the structure of the brain, which in turn maps huge areas onto what you might call a ‘body image’ and the mind exists within —‘is’?—that context, distributed all over the system. Take away the context and you may still have something qualifying as a ‘mind’ and maybe even a fairly extensive set of ‘memories’, but it’s definitely not ‘human’ anymore. Nor is it contiguous to or continuous with the mind which it purports to ‘be’. Therefore it’s not the ‘same’ mind, and if someone performs the transfer of his human mind into that other context and then kills himself, he is indeed dead. What remains is a caricature; possibly ‘enhanced’, but who cares?

Is even a perfect copy the same as the original? Go figure. I don’t think so, for the reasons briefly touched upon above.

And so we come back to ‘meaning’.

Thought I’d lost the plot there? I haven’t. It all started with ‘meaning’—and now we’ve finally come back to it. Because, when all is said and done and all the philosophical waffle has been dealt with, this is what we end up with:

‘Meaning’ is ‘context’. It’s just a word we pin onto our perception of what we experience when we become, probably subliminally, aware of our ‘setting’. ‘Meaning’ increases with the strength and number of the links, ties, bonds, connections with and to everything else. Meaning is at its lowest when we are isolated, and it is at its highest when we are completely ‘involved’ in (meaning ‘connected to’, ‘tied to’) something (another person, religion, any cause), and the more involved we are the ‘deeper’ and more intense the experience of ‘meaning’. Like everything else, there is, however an optimal balance. The much-vaunted ‘middle way’ if you will. Too much or too little meaning and we become moderately to severely dysfunctional in either direction. Just the right amount and we function optimally.

The best ‘dose’ of meaning will vary from person to person. However, except in very unusual circumstances and with very unusual people, there is an ‘optimal dose’—with some latitude for deviation, of course.

What’s it all ‘mean’—for emortalists especially?

It implies that we have to learn to find our optimal level of ‘meaningfulness’, that what is suitable for a mortal of the currently-standard life-spans will have to be completely re-evaluated. Because, as I’ve said before, it’s quite possible for your average mortalist to spend a whole life in the kind of imbalanced existence that many are prone to: selfish, narrow-minded, religiously bigoted, couch-potatoed, game-playing, opportunist—or totally devoted to others or a ‘life for God’ or something along those lines, with nary a thought for ‘self’ (except that I suspect a lot of God-devotees think a lot about ‘self’ indeed…). The ones all bunched up, afraid of connecting to the larger context; the others all connected up everywhere, too afraid to connect with themselves.

The mind/body can bear these excesses for a time: maybe for long enough to see a person through their three-score-and-ten years—but for an emortal the situation is different. Any imbalance will ultimately either tip into the opposite or ultimately become fatal. I confidently predict an epidemic of suicides maybe a century or so after emortalist treatment first becomes available. The emortals who remain will be those who have found their right level, their middle-path, their balance between selfishness and involvement in the ‘bigger picture’.

And now to sex. (This is what you all have been waiting for, yes?)

W.B.Yeats wrote: "There are really only two subjects worthy of serious consideration: Sex and Death."

Behind this flippant remark hides a profound truth: that among the contextual elements that define us as human beings two stand out: our sexuality and our mortality, though possibly in reverse order.

I think we all understand the ‘mortality’ aspect, but maybe immortalists are apt to forget what it implies: that if we cease to be mortal we will cease to be human.

Hold it! What I did not say was: ‘If we become emortal we cease to be human.’

We’re talking about two different things here. There is a difference between ‘being immortal’ and ‘having to get old and die on schedule’ (that’s being ‘emortal’). I think everybody reading this is aware of it, so I won’t dwell on the issue.

The ‘emortal’ partially sidesteps the issue of losing a part of her humanity by remaining ‘mortal’ in the sense that death may still strike and that indeed, one can never be sure whether there really will be a tomorrow—though one can be reasonably certain that, if one doesn’t want to get old and die, one is under no pressure to do so. In another context this kind of longevity was called ‘relative immortality’ (‘relative Unsterblichkeit’).

Is there value in retaining at least a part of this aspect of our ‘humanity’? It’s a matter of choice. I think it is, but I appreciate that others don’t. I guess I’m not by inclination ‘transhuman’. I like the limitations of my current humanity, because, apart from my mortality, I’m actually happy being what I am. This appears to be in contrast to a lot of wannabe immortals, who are obviously thoroughly dissatisfied with their humanity (and their current lives for that matter.

We may aspire to the same kinds of goals, but apart from that, end even with respect to what we actually want, we’re complete strangers. I realize that, even if I live to be 1,000, it will be in a body that can be destroyed—and I with it. I like that idea. It keeps me grounded. It keeps me focused. It keeps me human. Emortal-human maybe, but human nonetheless. It also keeps me in empathy with other humans, which to me, at least, matters.

Sex: the other ‘basic parameter’ of the human equation. Sex like humans do it (bizarre as some practices may be), not like a computer may simulate it. Not even the ‘enhanced’ version. Sex that occasionally doesn’t come off quite as good as other times, with ups and downs and real highs and lows, too.

But, of course, even sex isn’t going to be the same anymore, is it? It’s linked inextricably to pair-bonding, which, to most people on Earth, cutting across all cultures to varying degrees, means bonding-for-life. Which currently means, say, 75 years max, if you live long enough.

[Sidebar: I know that this isn’t really happening any more. Let’s face it, the divorce rate in most Western countries is 50% or so, and in the Muslim realm we have the bizarre situation where men, many of which regard women as pleasure-generating and child bearing objects anyway, can ‘divorce’ their spouses at a moment’s notice and without much ado and no recourse by the woman. Still, in the ‘Western’ world at least the romantic, and religious, ideal is marriage for the rest of your ‘natural’ life.]

Problem is, what happens when you live to 750? You may be able to endure your spouse for a few decades and, after all, you also may hold to him or her because of the kids and you’re-both-getting-older-and-who-else-would-want-you, and other motives decidedly unromantic. A ‘bearable’ spouse for a few decades may become insufferable for longer—probably will more often than not. Besides, evolution hasn’t equipped us for ‘love’ beyond a limited amount of time. Statistics show that, now that religious shackles are weaking, we’re not talking about decades any more either. A few years at best.

It doesn’t take a futurologist to see where this is going with emortalism coming along. A major wrenching of our sexual ethics is unavoidable—and the only writer I know who has tackled this repeatedly and with determination is Robert Heinlein. Every other writer of ‘the future’ I know of or have read, has carefully skirted the subject or made it into a minor issue among others.

It isn’t. It’s important. Our definition of ‘human-ness’ will stand and fall largely on how we deal with this change in the sexual parameters of the human equation. And it’s not some woolly far-out thing like minds-in-computers, but it’s actually here. We just don’t know it yet—but every human being alive now and in a ‘long-term relationship’ with another, and old enough to make it through the mortality-barrier, will have to face this. They may not be thinking about it now, but it’s coming: like it or not. So, you budding emortals, look at your significant others and think of what it means for your relationship that either or both of you may live to be 1,000…

[Sidebar:

It goes without saying that those who have no relationship of any significance with another human being seemingly don’t have to worry about this kind of thing. This appears to suggest that maybe emortals are better off without profound involvements of this kind. It might be easier to treat relationships like the computer-games they play, or whatever amuses them.

Anybody coming to that conclusion and taking it seriously, in my eyes at least, qualifies as a ‘loser’, and I make no apologies for it. I don’t doubt though that there will be aplenty of them. Those who follow through with this approach will, I predict, be among the major wave of emortal suicides sometime during the 22nd century.]

Conclusion:

About me:

Posted Image

I hate this. I really do. And I, for one, actually mean it. I’d like people to listen to what I say, not spend too much time looking at who I am. That’s one reason why I like writing fiction—telling stories, that is: because people listen to the story, rather than wondering what the storyteller’s love-life is like. That’s why I write scripts and direct movies, but don’t act in them.

However, with all the issues I’ve so-far heaped on readers of these articles, they might start to wonder why I want to be emortal at all. Don’t I make it sound like it was more of a bother than a boon?

By no means.

It all started when I was, I suppose, about six years old. It can’t have been much before that because children usually can’t remember much further back. But it was on the threshold of me becoming a thinking human being.

I had what amounts to a revelation: a sudden rush of comprehension—triggered by I know not what—of what it actually meant that I would have to die one day; to cease to exist; to be extinguished; to lose that precious existence I felt I had (and still do).

My parents didn’t help. They probably didn’t even understand what was happening. Not that I think they could have helped.

This insight into the finality of personal extinction has remained with me since then. In the end, in 1974 I came across Alan Harringtons The Immortalist, and it was like ‘of course!’ I’d known it all the time. How could I not. It was so obvious, so utterly obvious…

But it didn’t stop there. I’m not a hermit and I had and still have a ‘life’. I’m not a lunatic either. Having discovered what I wanted, I thought about what I could do about it, and decided to veer away from Astrophysics, into biophysics and medical computing and related things. I also always wanted to be a writer, so that was another angle. I would tell people about why it made sense to want to live forever.

It wasn’t easy, and indeed it didn’t work out that way. I roamed across a wide philosophical and occasionally religious landscape, decided pretty much on what was what and what was bullshit (it’s not that difficult, actually), and kept my eye on scientific developments. Meanwhile I married and had a family. My daughters are now grown up. They’ve lived all their lives with a father who made no bones about wanting to live forever. We don’t talk about it much: they know it’s a dicey and socially not quite acceptable subject, and besides, what’s the point of talking to people who don’t want to listen. “Trying to save someone from their own stupidity is like trying to teach a pig how to dance: it wastes your time, and annoys the pig,” wrote RAH and I concur wholeheartedly.

My motives for wanting to stay alive have expanded as I gained a sense of perspective with the passing years. The fundamental impetus has not changed: I still know the terror of what it means to understand ‘personal extinction’; still, in the dark hours of the occasional night feel it touch me again.

But now there’s much more. I want to see my children live, and their children, and I want the whole damn human race to live, and I’d like to be there to help it make it through whatever comes. That starts with making sure that we maintain and improve our level of ‘civilization’, don’t screw up our spaceship, and don’t allow barbarians who live in the middle-ages to destroy centuries of progress. It extends to the need to get the human race—or at least a significant part of it—off the planet, because, sooner or later, there will be something that’ll wipe out everything we’ve done. A comet, an asteroid, the sun, an alien species, whatever. We need to anticipate this and take our eggs out of a single basket.

I think the introduction of emortality and the accompanying future-consciousness will be the most hopeful thing that’s ever happened to the species: as we stop thinking two days ahead, and instead think ‘centuries’, and as we stop thinking ‘me’ or ‘my tribe’ and have the time to think of ‘my species’, ‘my people’, ‘my kind’, ‘my hope’.

Extending the threads and bonds of ‘meaning’; balancing our personal and the larger context. And the ‘larger context’ is everybody else on the planet. I don’t know what I can do about it or what I can contribute. But I’d like to be around and lend a hand and something will come up. It always does.

But one thing’s for sure: it’s got to be about more than me.

In the next and probably last article: Scenarios.

#2 Bruce Klein

  • Guardian Founder
  • 8,794 posts
  • 242
  • Location:United States

Posted 12 September 2003 - 02:22 PM

Burr, I sit shivering soaked under the cold reality of your words. Thanks Till for bringing to light the tough issues. I'm sure we'll see interesting responses to your helpful and worthwhile article.

I realize that, even if I live to be 1,000, it will be in a body that can be destroyed—and I with it. I like that idea. It keeps me grounded. It keeps me focused. It keeps me human. Emortal-human maybe, but human nonetheless. It also keeps me in empathy with other humans, which to me, at least, matters.


Ah, now.. it doesn't have to be that way!

sooner or later, there will be something that’ll wipe out everything we’ve done. A comet, an asteroid, the sun, an alien species, whatever. We need to anticipate this and take our eggs out of a single basket.


I completely agree and have put together ImmInst's Threats To Life Council to which members are encouraged to explore. We will eventually produce reports on the most dangerous risks to life on earth. Mainly focusing on large-scale and longer-term problems.

Thanks again, and I look forward to your next, hopefully not last, installment of what has turned into an insightful and admittedly entertaining series.

#3 Jace Tropic

  • Guest
  • 285 posts
  • 0

Posted 12 September 2003 - 03:47 PM

Till,

We don’t seem to be approaching closure in the area of mind philosophy any time soon. Currently it seems the dualist and materialist camps merely represent a glass half empty and a glass half full, respectively. I think one thing is certain as of today, we still cannot prove whether mind facts and brain facts are the same thing and whether mind facts aren’t vulnerable to brain facts without being exhaustively constituted by or identical to them.

I’m not a physics major; therefore I have yet to understand how minds can be uploaded into AI without taking into account the implications in Chaos Theory which fundamentally state that in order to precisely replicate organic and other natural systems, it is necessary to take measurements that have somehow demarcated infinite floating-points while maintaining infinite precision.

To ignore this issue might indicate that my underpinnings are completely off and invalid, or that the problem with mind uploading is being simplified by arbitrarily creating fixed-points. I understand the grim skepticism.

Jace

sponsored ad

  • Advert

#4 Mechanus

  • Guest
  • 59 posts
  • 0

Posted 12 September 2003 - 08:21 PM

I realize that long point-by-point posts such as the one that follows are usually not very enlightening or very fun to read. I don't expect anyone to read or reply to this one.

However, now that I've written it and spent some time doing so, I couldn't stand not posting it. ;)



[quote]

(...) immortalist hype (...)

(...) It’s crap. It won’t happen. (...)

(...) Even the functionalist persuasion of cognitive philosophers wouldn’t really believe it, if only they thought about what they’re saying for more than a nanosecond. (...)

(...) the cryonics crowd (...)

(...) fantasy (...)

(...) nonsense (...)?

(...) truly idiotic notion. (Sorry, but ‘idiotic’ is the minimal attribute I can think of. Nothing else even comes close.) (...)

[/quote]

You seem annoyed! ;)

Why all the inflammatory rhetoric? It costs me some cognitive capacity to stay calm and polite in response to such things. I already need all the cognitive capacity I can get for other purposes.

[quote]but also by the additional state-spaces—of unknown dimensionality, and we don’t even begin to have a notion of their complexity!—mapped out by the biochemical and electrical environment in our heads.[/quote]

[quote]Add to that another factor, namely that the functionality of the human mind is also determined by the precise mechanics of the system within which it operates, this is the brain and the body.[/quote]

Does all of this information (at such accuracy that we can't simulate it) really contribute to our identity?

It's true that if you get even one atom wrong, then your brain will evolve to be in a very different state over time, though probably with all the basic features (personality, memory, and so on) still intact. There are multiple ways a human can develop, and the way one develops as an upload is not going to be exactly the same as the way one would develop as a "meatling". This is not a bad thing. If a few atoms in my head had reversed course one hour ago, then I would undoubtedly be in a somewhat different state of mind than I am now; even so, it would make no sense in such a case for my earlier self to worry that I would (from that point where the atoms reversed course) lose my identity.

[quote]These technical issues alone are so huge as to be, for all practical purposes and a very long time to come, insurmountable.[/quote]

Very true -- uploading doesn't look possible in the foreseeable future. On the other hand, transhuman technologies and the singularity may very well initiate the unforeseeable future quite soon.

[quote]Why thank you for mentioning it, because you help me to make my point—which is that indeed such a transplanted mind will definitely not be human, but a mere parody. A faster, more efficient, etc parody, but still a parody.[/quote]

Apart from the question whether the upload really is you: would there be anything wrong with such a mind, if it incorporated most of the characteristics of human brains, and all the ones we tend to think of as desirable?

You could also say an upload is not human because humans are not made of silicon (or whatever computing substrate), but why is that an interesting definition of "human"?

[quote]I don’t think that even transhumanists believe for a moment that what they propose is true.[/quote]

Quite right: they're all liars. Paid shills of the upload industry. ;)

[quote]The catch? Well, in order not to overpopulate the Earth and to avoid administrative problems and all that, the person that goes in to the ‘transmitter’ has to be annihilated.[/quote]

I realize that that is a thought experiment, but, uploading need not be "destructive" (in that the original is killed). (I would personally not mind this.)

[quote]Any ‘transhumanists’ who don’t should probably declare themselves as cured of transhuman predilections as of this moment.[/quote]

Transhumanism doesn't necessarily entail any particular views on personal identity, or wanting to be uploaded. Brain uploading is just one technology.

[quote]Who had their hands up? [/quote]

I did (as well as some others, I suspect). I believe in my philosophical opinions strongly enough that I would step into a Star Trek teleporter without hesitation -- at worst, I'm sacrificing my life for the life of someone exactly like me, which is not such a bad option.

[quote]I thought so… [/quote]

;)

How did you know?

[quote]Even if someone could make a perfect copy of you, would that copy be really you?[/quote]

Yes, that's a question I encounter regularly. I don't think there's such a thing as "really me". You can use different definitions of personal identity in different situations, and a perfect copy is good enough for me. I certainly don't see any reason to care less about a person exactly like me, with all my beliefs and memories and so on, than about a person exactly like me who is really me, whatever that means.

[quote]‘Continuity’ means temporal-spatial ‘uninterruptedness’.  It means that though, if you, say, took snapshots of a person one year apart, it would be true that they are indeed physically and mentally very different from the person they were before, the fact is that from one instant to another and from one spatial location to another the changes in them are essentially incremental, in such a way that a perceptual notion of ‘continuity’ is preserved.[/quote]

I'm not sure such a notion of "space-time continuity" makes much sense, physically speaking. I also don't see why it's relevant to personal identity.

Of course, you could also argue uploading doesn't violate such continuity. It's still done using physical particles, without teleportation or time travel. This is especially obvious in gradual types of uploading (Moravec transfer?). You can see it as a flow of information from the brain to a computer, if you want.

It's true that you would be made of different atoms, but does that really matter? Some of the atoms in your brain are always being replaced.

If copying a program from one silicon computer to another silicon computer preserves continuity, then so does copying a program from a meat computer to a silicon computer.

[quote]But the fact is that all the available evidence points to continuity of existence throughout sleep, continuity of mental processes (just not necessarily ‘conscious’) and of the body.[/quote]

Any definition of personal identity according to which it matters that there is always some subconscious process going on is absurd to me. What if such processes stop for 1/100 second -- does that mean you wake up as someone else? ("I woke up this morning only to discover that everything had been replaced with an exact duplicate!!")

[quote]There  is a true discontinuity of existence here, and this is equivalent to death, at least in my book—and, I suspect, secretly in the ‘books’ of most wannabe transhumanists, too. [/quote]

You keep assuming transhumanists don't really believe what they claim to believe. Why in Athe's name would people lie about this sort of thing?

[quote]Think of ‘context’ as the ‘environment of existence’ of whatever it is you’re talking about.[/quote]

Why not (imperfectly) simulate this context also? That shouldn't be too hard, given reasonable margins for error.

Or do we become someone else every time we step into another room? ;)

[quote]Behind this flippant remark hides a profound truth: that among the contextual elements that define us as human beings two stand out: our sexuality and our mortality, though possibly in reverse order.[/quote]

Sexuality and mortality define human beings? As an asexual immortalist, I can't agree.

[quote]I realize that, even if I live to be 1,000, it will be in a body that can be destroyed—and I with it. I like that idea. It keeps me grounded. It keeps me focused.[/quote]

Are you sure you couldn't keep these psychological advantages in other ways -- by setting goals for yourself, and so on?

[quote]It also keeps me in empathy with other humans, which to me, at least, matters.[/quote]

This should only matter for empathy with fear of death, and so on, which is a small subset of all empathy. Besides, you don't necessarily need to suffer from something yourself to empathize with it. I can very well feel bad for people who have to die, for other reasons than that I have to die myself.

How much empathy do dead people have, really?

[quote]Problem is, what happens when you live to 750? You may be able to endure your spouse for a few decades and, after all, you also may hold to him or her because of the kids and you’re-both-getting-older-and-who-else-would-want-you, and other motives decidedly unromantic. A ‘bearable’ spouse for a few decades may become insufferable for longer—probably will more often than not. [/quote]

Transhumanism allows for a lot of possibilities for (mental, physical) change, as well as staying young. Perhaps those whose spouse is someone they "may be able to endure for a few decades" have not chosen carefully enough, and will end up in another, more interesting relationship.

Or if not: better divorced than dead.

[quote]Besides, evolution hasn’t equipped us for ‘love’ beyond a limited amount of time.[/quote]

Which is only one of the many reasons to clean up the mess evolution left behind, now that it's done its work.

[quote]Our definition of ‘human-ness’ will stand and fall largely on how we deal with this change in the sexual parameters of the human equation.[/quote]

Rubbish. As hard as it is for some people to believe, there are more important things than sex.

[quote]It goes without saying that those who have no relationship of any significance with another human being seemingly don’t have to worry about this kind of thing. This appears to suggest that maybe emortals are better off without profound involvements of this kind. It might be easier to treat relationships like the computer-games they play, or whatever amuses them.[/quote]

Now you're grouping those with no interest in relationships (having no interest in relationships is hard for humans, but not so hard for self-modifying posthumans) with those who treat relationships like computer games.

[quote]as we stop thinking two days ahead, and instead think ‘centuries’, and as we stop thinking ‘me’ or ‘my tribe’ and have the time to think of ‘my species’, ‘my people’, ‘my kind’, ‘my hope’.[/quote]

I think we should think not of centuries but of (many) billions of years, and not of 'my species' but of 'my fellow inhabitants of the multiverse'.

#5 till

  • Topic Starter
  • Validating/Suspended
  • 63 posts
  • 0
  • Location:Brisbane

Posted 13 September 2003 - 12:47 AM

Thank you 'Mechanus', whoever you are, and I suspect the alias reveals your predilections.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're another of those people I really have nothing to say to. It really isn't personal: it's just that I also have nothing fruitful to debate with Muslims, say—philosphically speaking that is. Some people are separated by cognitive and philsosophical barriers so profound that, though they speak the same language, they might as well not.

This is the case with you and I (I could not even begin to understand what an 'asexual immortalist' is!) and so, if I don't reply to your points, don't feel offended. I merely decline to engage in arguments doomed to become exchanges of 'talking past' each other.

As far as my...direct...way of expressing myself is concerned: if I think something is stupid I will either say so or say nothing at all (people who know me hate it when I 'refuse to comment', because they know what it means: Till is trying to be diplomatic! ha!).

In this case I chose to say something—and it just so happens that I think that to label a computational-transhumanist thought 'fantasy' is being complimentary. The movement to me appears to consist mostly of people who are incapable of separating fiction from reality, and/or who think that "The Matrix" contains profound thoughts.

I apologize to all for my vigorous way of expressing myself. Offense is not intended!

(And I still have no idea what an 'asexual immortalist' is...) [huh]

#6 Bruce Klein

  • Guardian Founder
  • 8,794 posts
  • 242
  • Location:United States

Posted 13 September 2003 - 04:59 AM

In the spirit of helping, I'll give my view on what I think an 'asexual immortalist' is.

As a happily married immortalist, I aspire to become an 'asexual immortalist'. My wife understands my desires, admittedly somewhat in a puzzled way, thus I'm still working to explaining this better. But basically, I don't necessarily enjoy being cow tied to my DNA or my evolutionary predilections toward serial relationships. I don’t necessarily like being distracted by an urge to lust at females and have very little intellectual desire to consummate these urges in the way of having off-spring.

Obviously, Till you'll probably think I'm crazy.. and that's ok.. you're free to your opinion. But, I wanted to explain what I think Mechanus was referring to from my point of view. I think he said it rather well in his remarks to your quote:

Till Said: Besides, evolution hasn’t equipped us for ‘love’ beyond a limited amount of time.

Mechanus Said: Which is only one of the many reasons to clean up the mess evolution left behind, now that it's done its work.

#7 kevin

  • Member, Guardian
  • 2,779 posts
  • 822

Posted 13 September 2003 - 06:11 AM

I also dislike being 'hardwired for sex'. I don't particularly enjoy having my thoughts hijacked by something my DNA would be better off telling a lesser evolved lifeform more free to both sociologically and psycholigcally take advantage of the urge to procreate.

Evolutionarily speaking, I think the human species has arrived at a point where we will be able to control more carefully when and where we choose to give in to these urges. As the average younger (and older) male thinks of sex on the average of once every 30 or so seconds (unfocused), I wonder how much more could be accomplished without the constant interruption of our hormones.

#8 vizikahn

  • Guest
  • 49 posts
  • 0
  • Location:Oulu, Finland

Posted 13 September 2003 - 08:02 AM

So hands up who would go into that transmitter and allow himself to be ‘put under’!


Hands up here too, I'm going to transmitter chamber. I'm not afraid to die, if it's certain that I will "born again" at the other end.

What remains is a caricature; possibly ‘enhanced’, but who cares?


I think it's still better to live as a "caricature" than die. It's not the same, yes, but I don't even want it to be exactly the same. I like my body, but I want to experience something more than just this body (and this mind).

W.B.Yeats wrote: "There are really only two subjects worthy of serious consideration: Sex and Death."


I don't define myself thru sex and death. "I" is just an illusion; it's not about losing my true self, because there is no true self. We are all just caricatures and parodies of ourselves. I know I am ;)

#9 till

  • Topic Starter
  • Validating/Suspended
  • 63 posts
  • 0
  • Location:Brisbane

Posted 13 September 2003 - 08:37 AM

Interesting. Very interesting indeed.

There seems to be a whole bunch of folks out there eager and willing to join the 'asexual immortals', and obviously so dissatisfied with whatever they perceive as their 'humanity' that they can't wait to shed it.

I must confess that I'm possibly more puzzled about this than your wife, Bruce. I really am.

And Vizikahn (got to explain that name to me one day!): the whole thrust of my argument is that what comes out on the other end isn't you but a copy.

Do you folks really have no sense of 'identity' at all, that you actually subscribe to the notion that a copy of you is you? Sorry, but I find this odder than just 'strange'. I have to accept it, of course, but in my universe it makes no sense whatsoever. Are you certain you've thought this through and haven't just been watching too much Star Trek?

Well, here's some more material for my future articles. As I see your responses I'm actually getting quite excited about writing these things. Initially they were just like 'I really should do this', but I'm beginning to enjoy myself. I normally don't with 'factual' material. I'd rather prefer stories. And, I also realize that this discussion is giving me some much needed material to re-write a novel I penned about ten years ago. Wow!

Back to Bruce: I don't think you're 'crazy' (you seem like a sensible guy, at least from afar ;) ), but your comment that "I don’t necessarily like being distracted by an urge to lust at females and have very little intellectual desire to consummate these urges in the way of having off-spring" shows up what I'd consider serious 'issues'. Far from me to try to psychoanalyze you ;) but I wonder how it is possible for a heterosexual male not to 'lust at females', especially beautiful, intelligent, loving ones. I get even less how anybody could consider that a problem.

And as for reproduction: it is hardly an issue of 'intellect', but of basic 'human nature' (yeah, I know, the one you don't want to be 'tied to') and it's a good thing—well, from my, possibly somewhat antiquated, perspective anyway. Much of my fiction is, after all, about 'human' stuff, like love and loyalty and trust and meshing individual desires with social needs, and figuring out how meaning arises from the right blend of taking and giving, and freedom and accepting obligation and responsibility for self and others. I guess, to you that must sound a bit trite, eh?

Sometimes I wonder if it is a question of 'age'—and not just in terms of years, but of the 'age' that was formative in one's view of self and the world.

Tell me folks, is there anybody reading this who is not going into that transmitter chamber, and who actually likes who and what they are (the mortality of their bodies excepted; that goes without saying)?

I'm beginning to wonder...

#10 Mechanus

  • Guest
  • 59 posts
  • 0

Posted 13 September 2003 - 10:55 AM

Ack. I knew I shouldn't have left that in.

By "asexual immortalist", I meant "an immortalist (person who thinks it's desirable for people to be able to live forever if they want to) who also happens to like asexualism". There is no implied connection between the two, let alone an ideology called "asexual immortalism", and I only brought it up because you said sex and death are the two most defining features of human-ness.

This does not mean I think sex is evil, or that I think it should be banished from the world, or anything. It just means I resent having been built to enjoy pointless acts with potentially nasty side effects, and that I'm not willing to go to any trouble to participate in such acts, unlike many people whose lives seem to revolve around them. Sexuality distracts from more interesting and important things I want to do. (Also, I'm not a fan of anything involving organs and bodily fluids.)

However, please don't judge anyone else by these psychological weirdities of mine -- the other immortalists and transhumanists really are quite normal, sane people. It seems to be popular to describe the "cybergnostic" aspects of transhumanism, but these descriptions are usually exaggerations of even my views, and I suspect I represent an extreme in that direction.

But let's please talk about something else -- none of this is important at all, which is why I should have left the comment out. (If my attitude to sexuality were the exact opposite, my attitude to transhumanism would still be the same.)

As for the username, that's more of a QWERTY phenomenon than a deep statement of my beliefs. I picked it one and a half year ago, and now I'm stuck with it. ;)

One last comment. Transhumanism does not mean you hate your current life, or your current body. It just means you think there is (much) room for improvement.

#11 Utnapishtim

  • Guest
  • 219 posts
  • 1

Posted 13 September 2003 - 11:08 AM

Till

I actually agree with an awful lot of what you are saying. Speaking personally, my sense of selfhood is tied into a specific context and that context is grounded in my physicality as well as my mind and memories. If what 'I' became was so utterly different from what I am now that my previous experiences of life had absolutely no relevance to it, I don't really see the point of such tenuous 'continuity' in the first place.

I actually like rather than resent my humanness, all the quirky traits evolution has selected for homo sapiens may not have been chosen for their entertainmnet value but they are central to the core notions of identity and 'meness' I hold. The reason I want aging turned off is because I want to live for longer not becasue I want to be someone or something totally different.

#12 vizikahn

  • Guest
  • 49 posts
  • 0
  • Location:Oulu, Finland

Posted 13 September 2003 - 11:27 AM

And Vizikahn (got to explain that name to me one day!): the whole thrust of my argument is that what comes out on the other end isn't you but a copy.


I understand that, but I think that I am the copy that comes out; my mind is the information that comes out. I don’t think there is anything “supernatural” that dies in the transmission; only hardware dies, not software (which in my opinion, is “me”). After I step out of the transmitter chamber, I can look myself and think: this is not my original body and this is not my original mind that thinks these thoughts, but I still feel to be myself and that is what matters.

About Vizikahn… I write an introduction and explain my name. This was a teaser [sfty]

#13 kevin

  • Member, Guardian
  • 2,779 posts
  • 822

Posted 13 September 2003 - 03:28 PM

Til

I enjoy being 'human', although it's definition by 'sex and death' could equally apply to any sexual ageing organism so I don't think those two features really stand out. Even with it's high maintenance, I enjoy my biological body and it's genetic heritage. I do however, look forward to a day when it can be repaired with greater ease and its' durability increased.

A while back, while thinking about the nature of time, I wondered what level of 'discontinuity' in either space or time, was required for a defintion of 'identity'. Obviously, temporally, we are not the same person we are from year to year, or even perhaps day to day. Taking time in smaller chunks and realizing that our brains and bodies, the physical foundations on which our consciouss relies, are in a constant state of turnover. In this respect, we can be said to be 'different' from moment to moment, but do these physical changes result in a different 'identity' from moment to moment as well?

As you might have read in some of my other posts, I've been increasingly wondering about quantum entanglement and what the phenonemenon says about the nature of reality. Something very strange is happening when the measurement of a 'state' of one particle can somehow instantaneously influence the state of it's entangled partner no matter how far apart they are. Somehow a decision on the state of the particle is being 'transmitted?' that transcends space and time. Something very strange is going on here. The phenonmenon gives credibility to the notion that it is the making of decisions and the determination of information that is at work in selecting from a variety of equal probabilities. It has even been used to support the idea that all possible outcomes resolve when a measurement is made, with us only being aware of the scenario we are currently part of. If this is the case, are we not inherently 'discontinuous' beings?

If a computer was somehow able to instantaneously recreate me, atom for atom, would the resulting 'copy' be in some way inferior to the template used for it's creation? Does 'quantum teleportation' using the phenomenon of entanglement, create objects/individuals that are 'less' than the original? The 'instantaneous' transmission of the state of an entangled particle allows one to entertain the possibility that time and space are illusions, that the distance and time separating the entangled particles isn't really there, and that the particles are not only entangled, but perhaps exist on another level as the same entity. We are in the forest.. and see only trees.

Regardless, I think that our 'biological underpinnings' are of course part of our humanity. Our biological machinery does not make us unique however, as most organic life on the planet shares the same foundation which includes sex and death. We became distinctly human from our closest primate cousins when our 'brain' developed a higher level of processing and creative ability giving our ancestors distinct advantages over their less developed cousins. It is this quality that defines the path we have taken as a species and this is what the 'technophiles' and uploading advocates are speaking to. The essence of humanity are those qualities which have allowed us to transcend our physical limitations to explore our environments and our universe in ways our biology would never allow. They are the qualities which transcend our biology. Humanity has never allowed itself to be limited, and perhaps this is what truly makes us human.

#14 till

  • Topic Starter
  • Validating/Suspended
  • 63 posts
  • 0
  • Location:Brisbane

Posted 13 September 2003 - 11:50 PM

Thank you Udnapishtim and Kevin for your replies. I will use your comments as starting points for some stuff in article #4. I think I finally understand the psychological mechanism at work in the 'transhumanist' movement. Why has it taken me so long? Hmmfff...

More later. Watch this space. ;)

#15 John Schloendorn

  • Guest, Advisor, Guardian
  • 2,542 posts
  • 157
  • Location:Mountain View, CA

Posted 14 September 2003 - 12:33 AM

Till,
let me congratulate on your wonderfully direct exposure of – well a lot of true and important things about those who want to live forever.

You might like to hear that I would not feel entirely well going into a transmitter chamber. Only after a brief recollection that this fear is irrational and must be so would I push the button. How come? The common feature that drives us all into this seemingly self-destructive behaviour is usually called reductionism.
I think this view hard to grasp, particularly for those who had important encounters with the fear of personal extinction. It does render such fears utterly self-deceptive and folly, which may trigger personal integrity defence. (You can take openness as well, I presume)
Anyways, it is only because reductionism is so hard to grasp, that I feel uneasy entering the transmitter.

Reductionism has been famously defended by Derek Parfit[1], who denies any persisting entity that is separate from our psychological parameters, such as a “soul” or “identity of the person”. This is not the belief that personal identity is somehow constituted by psychological parameters. It is the belief that personal identity is an artefact and does not matter. The question whether X is the same person as Y is not dependent on any real information. It is an empty question.
“You” are best described as what you are now, no matter what story your memory tells about the past of your brain and body. We cannot discover any entity or concept that could both plausibly constitute “you” and persist. [pp. 219-274]
Parfit, who must also decide on a journey by teleport or by space ship, loses his reasons to go by space ship,

“not because Teletransportation is about as good as ordinary survival”

but because

“ordinary survival is about as bad as […] Teletransportation.”

[p. 280]

If it is wrong to call myself the same person that exits the teleport receiver, then it must also be wrong to call myself the same person that opens his eyes after I blinked.

In fact, there are heaps of people out there who claim that if reductionism is true, then we have no reason to be concerned for any future experiences whatsoever. I consider this issue in detail in an upcoming essay that I am not going to spoil right now.
A reductionist may value his present psychological information. In this case he is not going to change much. He may also see room for beneficial change, then he changes. That’s all there is to it. It can be quite liberating.

Related to your attachment to personal identity seems your attachment to a not further defined human quality about us. What do you mean when you talk about losing our humanity and how does that matter? To me it can only be the gradual process of making whatever change to our current parameters that we consider beneficial. Feeling deprived by this it is just another artefact of trying to assign identity to what is better left without.

Your major problem with uploading is personal identity. But once personal identity is talked away (or the myth of personal identity is dispelled), no logical impossibility remains. If reductionism is true, then we certainly cannot lose anything metaphysically important by uploading (a German saying goes “Can’t pick a nude man’s pocket”). How much good is gained or lost is on us to decide.

I agree, however, that the technical problem is heavily underestimated among hobby futurists. The difficulty is not only in the network between neurons in the physical environment of the brain, but also in the vast and unexplored network inside each and every single neuron. [2]
I would not be surprised if we evolved beyond wanting to upload into silico way before we can do it.
Unfortunately, the taking control of certain urges seems a hopeless case for the same reasons. Here it is foreseeable that evolving beyond wanting it equals to take control of the urges, so we’re deadlocked. We may be consoled by Mechanus’

“There are more important things than sex.”


Oh, and

“I confidently predict an epidemic of suicides maybe a century or so after emortalist treatment first becomes available.”


Me too. I do agree with much of the things you said in 101 and 102.

Best wishes, John.




[1] D. Parfit. Reasons and Persons. 1984. Oxford. Oxford Clarendon Press.

[2] Compare here the transvision talk on quantum consciousness by Stuart Hameroff http://www.transhuma...03usa/audio.htm or his publications retrievable on entrez.

#16 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,054 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 14 September 2003 - 01:07 PM

Till,

Mechanus brought up the Moravec Transfer option for uploading. I would enjoy to read your thoughts on it. It seems we are getting close in this regard. From professor Warwick's cyborg experience to cochlear implants to Parkinson's & Epilepsy electronics it is easy to see we are testing the Moravec Transfer possibility (and having success with very crude technology).

As you, I also enjoy my humanity and identity, but I don't use it as a barrier against future possibilities.

Never say never.


For all those following this thread, here is a little comical article about uploading.

Funny Uploading Article

#17 bitster

  • Guest
  • 29 posts
  • 0

Posted 14 September 2003 - 08:19 PM

Who needs Leon Kass? We have our best critic right here.
on our side, even...

Excellent points to hone our thinking on, Till. You actually echo many of my own realizations, many of which took a long time to reach.

more later...

#18 till

  • Topic Starter
  • Validating/Suspended
  • 63 posts
  • 0
  • Location:Brisbane

Posted 14 September 2003 - 10:02 PM

John:

The whole issue of 'identity', as conventional philosophy understands it, becomes essentially a non-issue, once we view identity as merely an aspect of the more generalized concept of 'context'. Think of 'identity' as a dense 'node' of context (or, if you will, 'contextual information'), or maybe a focus of condensation in a gas; only that the 'gas' is really more like 'information'. (BTW, I once wrote my cognitive science M.Sc. thesis on 'Models of Information Space', so don't get me started...;))

'Memory' is nothing but the descriptor we pin onto certain properties of the context, which have been established through the contexts evolution. The first kind of memory is 'implicit'. It's basically what we 'are'. The second kind is 'explicit': it's what we, to use use conventional terminology, are capable of knowing that we are; and insofar as such memory refers to the 'past' it's merely a reflection of a specific state, or set of states that were established during the history of whatever is doing the 'memorizing'. Some implicit and explicit memories can change roles, or be both, from time to time, or not. It all depends on the current state of the system. Some implicit memories, however, can never be made explicit.

What I'm trying to say is that every 'mental' element that is not 'process' is a form of 'memory'. Indeed, I have gone further in my thesis, and tried to defend the proposition that there is, in principle, no actual difference between the physical and the mental, and that they are indeed the same process—and that their apparent mutual supervenience is proof of that (of course, I copped some flak when I tried to show that that was indeed the case!).

In other words, insofar as such questions canbe answered at all (and I have my doubts that they can, if for no other reason but that we cannot reflect upon or touch on what will be forever 'implicit') the distinction between the physical and the mental is an odd artifact, probably brought about by the nature of the process that we call 'mind'. It really is a most mysterious and curious thing...

Anyway, I probably haven't responded to your post. Sorry.

Thing is, I wouldn't push the button.

The reason may be that I'm not a reductionist.

The reason for that is that I've tried to figure out, at least, approximately, the boundaries of what can, in principle be known. That doesn't mean I know what's within these boundaries, but I have established, at least to my own satisfaction, that such boundaries exist. Beyond that lies...well, 'mystery'. Not a God or anything like that, but stuff about me and whatever constitutes my identity that I don't understand at all. Sets of properties that I know exist, but which I simply have no access to: state-spaces I cannot map out, but whose existence I infer from the incompleteness of the descriptors we can, in principle, provide.

When you come down to it, it's kind-of an existential equivalent of Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem. And it tells me that the button should not be pushed—not because what comes out the other end is not a fairly good copy of me, but because 'I'—whatever that is—will cease to exist as a result. Which, in the usual parlance, is called 'dying' and which I don't want to happen to me. Call me shallow...

By the way, you are aware, of course, that the argument "If it is wrong to call myself the same person that exits the teleport receiver, then it must also be wrong to call myself the same person that opens his eyes after I blinked." is bogus, right? That anybody should take it seriously merely reinforces my general disdain for most philosophers.

Mind:

Before you mentioned it I hadn't even heard of 'Moravec Transfer'. I looked it up on the web and found a couple of articles, one penned by the 'inventor' of the process, and shall peruse them soon-ish.

I can already tell you one thing for free though:

Moravec writes: I happen to think of [my proposals] as real, highly desirable, possibilities for the foreseeable future. For me they are a solution to the annoying certainty that we will be overtaken in every area by future superintelligent machines, and will be excluded from all the really interesting developments unless we keep up, personally and intimately, with the technologies of thought.

'Emortalism 103' will explain why I don't think that such a takeover by 'intelligent machines' makes any more sense than the mind-transfer notion I took a swipe at in 102. More on that later.

But. yes, I will comment on the 'Moravec Transfer' issue, once I think have something moderately intelligent to say. Right now I haven't even started to really look at it.

Bitster:

Two things:

1) A 'critic' I'm not. I just try to add a sense of perspective here. Also, I hope that you've realized that I have no doubts about the value, for me and the species, of making 'emortalism' a reality. I just think that a lot of people interested in this evidence an alarming lack of perspective, which is wasting an inordinate amount of valuable brain power or harebrained concepts: brainpower that could be put to much better use. Why don't they shove some of this fantasy stuff onto the back-burner and work on getting done what can be done, and getting it done soon, and then they can go ahead with their other schemes at their leisure. First things first, I say.

2) If your realizations take some time to reach that's not just OK, it's good. It probably means they have a degree of maturity, which will come in handy when emortalism becomes 'real'. I've spent decades agonizing over my position on some issues. I'm still struggling with a lot of others—really struggling, and really unsure, and maybe forever sunsure. Who knows?

#19 till

  • Topic Starter
  • Validating/Suspended
  • 63 posts
  • 0
  • Location:Brisbane

Posted 14 September 2003 - 10:10 PM

Mechanus wrote:

"This does not mean I think sex is evil, or that I think it should be banished from the world, or anything. It just means I resent having been built to enjoy pointless acts with potentially nasty side effects, and that I'm not willing to go to any trouble to participate in such acts, unlike many people whose lives seem to revolve around them. Sexuality distracts from more interesting and important things I want to do. (Also, I'm not a fan of anything involving organs and bodily fluids.)"

I rest my case.

#20 till

  • Topic Starter
  • Validating/Suspended
  • 63 posts
  • 0
  • Location:Brisbane

Posted 14 September 2003 - 10:15 PM

Mind:

And thank you for the link to that article. I haven't laughed so hard for days... [lol]

#21 Lazarus Long

  • Life Member, Guardian
  • 8,116 posts
  • 242
  • Location:Northern, Western Hemisphere of Earth, Usually of late, New York

Posted 15 September 2003 - 04:28 AM

I just addressed a post about uploading/downloading individual consciousness over there Till and I would prefer not to copy/paste the entire thing over here but instead address your paper more formally later. The problem is that my personal tasks away from this machine call and I won't have a chance for a week or more, so please jog my "memory" if I forget.

There are a number of fallacies you are buying into about what is implied by the process of uploading a consciousness, also how it would evolve as a behavior but I also think the risks are pretty high too.

I don't however think the issue of multiple copies of an individual is anything more than a psychological fixation for some people; sort of like overcoming a fetish. What is impossible about having more than one of me running around other than I already talk too much?

Too much confusing sensory input?

A solipsistic definition of the self?

These are reconcilable problems.

I have never felt it is a prerequisite to say the original has to be destroyed either, that is only one of many paths to an "out of body" experience. I wish I had more time to elaborate but I will get back to this because as I suggest I see a different course leading to developing this ability.

I think it is coming out of advancing individual communications and using artificial telepathy, what I define as Techlepathy to allow those willing and able evolving organic humans that want to now merge consciousness as an act of love, or for the myriad of reasons do now, to come together in a new form of social reality that is transcendent of simpler physical restrictions.

I also think that we can overcome the loss of sensory input through simulation a la the matrix though I am not personally in favor of such an approach except perhaps to stave off madness between "incarnations" in a voluntarily chosen form. Personally I have no prejudicial particular insistence on always having to live as a bipedal hominid.

I wouldn't mind taking on many forms from the wolf to a dolphin, from an eagle to a spaceship; so long as in the form I took I could still have companionship from similarly sentient beings, a healthy environment to inhabit, and a self directed purpose to my endeavors such that I am acting creatively, yet continuing to be able to advance learning.

I am not like Mechanus, I like being wet; I enjoy it hot, and cold. Neither am I am not obsessively enamored of ignoring pain or eliminating it from experience, as some forms of pain are warnings that I need to address in my behavior in order to ensure my survival. I am content to study and coexist with the slimy creatures of the deep and soil, and I do not fear automatically what I do not understand.

I know curiosity and I do very much enjoy sexuality; especially as it is associated with "love making," not the petty superficial commercial variety that has become so popular of late as it comes to replace the more traditional form of love as "possession" that is only one step away from the evolutionary biology of lust in the quest for power between all too many individuals but still is limited to treating another as merely property.

I also feel Techlepathy is what we are evolving towards as a social species naturally anyway and for those that can truly love this could be both a great joy or serious challenge to their relationships for the secrets, petty deceptions both to the self and others), and "the social masks" would be stripped away and our souls would be naked before one another with all our flaws and virtues This is a path fraught with risk but also great opportunity and it may become possible sooner than you think because we already know how to do it, all we need to learn is how to collect and transmit the information already at work in our brains, not decrypt all the essential code of the operating system called the mind. We are already hard wired as a communicating species.

We have a lot to discuss, I hope we both get a good laugh out of it all. I certainly have enjoyed some of the basic concepts you have presented here in their simplest forms but I see them as generally representing the same kinds of psychological {superstitious phobias} fears that some people felt when they thought they would lose their souls if someone took their picture.

#22 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,054 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 15 September 2003 - 07:19 AM

Till:

Just to clarify (since there may be multiple meanings attached to "Moravec Transfer"), I mean becoming cyborg piece by piece, over a long period of time, not uploading the mind all at once.

#23 80srich

  • Guest
  • 33 posts
  • 0

Posted 15 September 2003 - 11:40 AM

Just on the issue of continuity an interesting thought occured to me. If your brain dead then that continuity is finished isnt it? Well people have been brought back from brain dead so are they no longer the person before?


Brain dead: Is it the same as 'really dead'?

Andy Ho

LUCKILY for Miss Tanya Liu, she was declared dead in a country with an opt-in organ donation programme.

Otherwise she might be buried by now and her organs working away in other people's bodies.

Instead, the Taiwanese newscaster, declared brain dead by London doctors after she was injured severely in a train crash in May last year, was moved at the insistence of her family to a hospital in Beijing.

There, herbal remedies and electrical stimulation of her brain saw her regain consciousness three months later.

http://straitstimes....-169685,00.html

Dont get me wrong im still unsure whether uploading would in effect be me but if continuity were true then this person must in effect not be the same person as before? What are your thoughts.

#24 80srich

  • Guest
  • 33 posts
  • 0

Posted 15 September 2003 - 12:18 PM

http://www.newscient...p?id=ns99993488

might also be of interest to people. Shows how brain prothesis is can take over certain functions of the brain though still experimental obviously. I wonder is the whole brain what makes you you, just parts of it, or just thoughts, memories and feelings encoded. This however does sidestep the issue of being mortal is what makes us human i understand but interesting nonetheless. What you should remember is that even if we were 'immortal' we could never really know we were immortal. There could always be dangers we are not aware of, and being finite beings you will never reach 'forever' day. Even if nothing in the known universe could destroy you, theres always the unknown, we will always be mortal in mind if not in reality. These are strange times indeed.

#25 Mechanus

  • Guest
  • 59 posts
  • 0

Posted 15 September 2003 - 02:20 PM

I rest my case.


Rest whatever you wish, but don't claim to have found the grand psychological mechanism behind transhumanism in one of its adherents's mild distaste for human organs. ;)

#26 Lazarus Long

  • Life Member, Guardian
  • 8,116 posts
  • 242
  • Location:Northern, Western Hemisphere of Earth, Usually of late, New York

Posted 15 September 2003 - 02:39 PM

I suggest that a review of some of our discussions in the sections on the Singularity and Hardcore Philosophy are now needed because while we can claim no true resolution perhaps it would clarify some of this debate in people's minds as we have been hashing over these issues for a while and frankly many have been hashing and rehashing over them since the time of the Pre-Socratic philosophers.

Specifically examine the thread on "What Constitutes me?"

#27 till

  • Topic Starter
  • Validating/Suspended
  • 63 posts
  • 0
  • Location:Brisbane

Posted 16 September 2003 - 01:02 AM

80srich:

I have no answer to this. The one thing that occurs to me though is that a declaration of brain death doesn't mean it is true. 'Brain death' to me would imply significant dysfunction of a large enough number of neurones and supportive cells to call it that. My understanding is that 'brain death' is defined in terms of cessation of apparent brain activity, which may or may not be a sensible indicator. I certainly would not want to be declared dead by reference to cessation of activity—which may be low enough to become immesaurable, but without that implying a significant death of the distributed network that is the brain.

As to whether the woman in question is the 'same' as the one that 'died', at least temporarily, I have no idea. I know far too little about the issue.

Laz:

You're right. It's all a re-hash and nary a novel thought in sight: just new jargon.

Well, let me put it simply: I wouldn't go into that chamber, because I identify myself with this body that is a component of my 'self'. I consider mind-transfer immortality just a notch down in ridiculousness from religious salvation. The concepts are essentially the same: both involve a dismissal of our current existence for something 'better' or 'more advanced' or whatever. Since there is nothing to support the notion that it a) works and b) makes any sense at all, this qualifies, at least to my mind, as superstitious nonsense. Just because it goes under the rubrik 'immortalism' doesn't make me any more sympathetic toward it, or lends it any more credibility.

Bottom line: I wish all the mind-transferrers good luck. If they want to 'transfer', good for them. I regard them with the same lack of comprehension I reserve for your average religionist fervent. As for me, I'd happily live on in my body, preferably for as long as I damn well please, as certain as I can be of the continuity of whatever is 'I'.

If others want to kill themselves for the sake of transcending into some never-never land of an alternative hardware base, let them. I will watch their antics with interest, and pat myself on the back for being what I am, enjoy my sex as humans do, and generally have a good time.

Sorry, but I'm not going to spend any more time discussing the mind-transfer thing. I've said my piece and I have no intention endlessly arguing about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. The issue will crop up in a future novel of mine, but that's a different subject.

#28 till

  • Topic Starter
  • Validating/Suspended
  • 63 posts
  • 0
  • Location:Brisbane

Posted 16 September 2003 - 01:06 AM

Till:

Just to clarify (since there may be multiple meanings attached to "Moravec Transfer"), I mean becoming cyborg piece by piece, over a long period of time, not uploading the mind all at once.


That's fine. Ultimately you then end up with a brain + additions? In that case you are dealing with an enhanced self, just like you do now, only less directly, when you use any piece of sensory enhancement instrumentation (from binoculars to a GPS system).

Humans have done this forever. Well, sort of. It's just getting rather sophisticated these days...

#29 MichaelAnissimov

  • Guest
  • 905 posts
  • 1
  • Location:San Francisco, CA

Posted 16 September 2003 - 01:35 AM

Ack. I knew I shouldn't have left that in.


And why the heck are you apologizing? Even if it's just a figure of speech, it still could be misconstrued as an apology. And as we both have observed, there is a pretty clear correlation between SL and asexualism, so it's probably inappropriate to assert that no connection between immortalism and asexualism exists *whatsoever*.

#30 till

  • Topic Starter
  • Validating/Suspended
  • 63 posts
  • 0
  • Location:Brisbane

Posted 16 September 2003 - 04:51 AM

BTW, folks, here's a little question relating to the issue of what 'identity' is. I just went to see...wait for it!...Identity, which of course reminded me of the whole multiple-personality thing I spent some time reading about some years back.

So, here's the question: if you upload an identity into a computer, and if the person being uploaded has 'multiple' identities, which one are you uploading? You get to pick? How? All of them? How do you know which one's your'e getting?

BTW, this issue isn't as nuncupatory as some might think, since 'mutliple personalities' are just a pathological extreme of a situation that exists within each of us all the time. I recommend a little book called Memory and Emotion for some more food for thought.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users