299 replies to this topic

[william7]

hah hah hah.... uh, can't explain all the laughing, for pc reasons...but, wether being gay is environmental (from hormones a mother took while pregnant, or the way the child was raised) or being gay is genetic (a certain amount of the population being that way for the tighter kinship) there are people who are gay, and are contributing members of society.  We have well known transgendered people in transhumanism, and well known gay members--along with straight.  All the styles of sexuality are represented in many areas of society, from medicine to science to social work etc.  they are all needed

Again, I'm not for persecuting the gay population as some so-called religious groups do. But, if heterosexual behavior is the better way and homosexual behavior is dysfunctional and unsatisfying for the majority of gay people and destructive to the community, I would like to point that out for the good of all.

[platypus]

What makes animals "experiment with gay lifestyles", nature or nurture. I'd guess the latter..

I agree 100 percent. It's obvious to me that animals were designed for heterosexual behavior. If you don't use the product in the manner it was designed for you're likely to run into problems. Just commonsense to me.

Your commonsense is broken. Homosexuality is rampant in the animal kingdom, which makes homosexuality "natural" by definition. Apparently the way gender identity and sexuality is generated in nature (we're part of nature too) produces a certain percentage of non-heterosexual entities. It can be debated whether nature was "designed" but this is how it works in the real world, and has worked for billions of years.

[platypus]

The so called "homosexual" behavior of animals is just an illusion caused by "homosexual observer bias".  True homosexual behavior in animals is just a myth. 

Can you produce any scientific references for your claims? There are so many reports of homosexual acts and homosexual animal couples both in captivity and in the wild that your claim sounds factually incorrect. I'm open to proper referces if you have them, though (no blog-posts please).

[Futurist1000]

Can you produce any scientific references for your claims? There are so many reports of homosexual acts and homosexual animal couples both in captivity and in the wild that your claim sounds factually incorrect. I'm open to proper referces if you have them, though (no blog-posts please).

You couldn't tell that post was a joke? Though maybe there is an element of truth to it, you never know.

Edited by hrc579, 15 November 2007 - 06:46 PM.

[Live Forever]

I think I am the only one that could tell you were joking hrc. (hence my BS comment with tongue sticking out)

[Live Forever]

Last night, while trying to go to sleep (you're even interfering with my sleep Live Forever), I remembered that I had read in the book On Aggression, by Konrad Lorenz, about the mother fox that was observed to eat her young as a result of a low flying jet or something. So, I know how fragile animal behavior in the wild can be. I'm sure it would be the same for any observed homosexuality in animals in their natural habitat if it's occurring.

It happens all the time. I can't believe that you would equate a one time event with something that clearly happens all the time (see the links I provided earlier). It is as "natural" as anything else in nature, I assure you.

[Liquidus]

What difference does it make if people are homosexual? That's what I want to know. People have these huge debates as to how and why people are gay, but they don't even know why they're arguing in the first place. I could see if being gay was a terminal and infectious disease, yeah that's a problem, or if gay people were genuinely evil people who were out to cause harm (just like atheists apparently). But they aren't.

As long as a gay person isn't endangering your life, and they aren't raping you, what harm do they display as human beings? Gay people contribute to society, and although they may not populate society or adhere to tradition, who cares, honestly?

I look forward to the future when people aren't distinguished by their sexual affiliation. Gay people are no different than anyone else, they just like to do things differently in the comfort of their privacy, I see no fault in that.

Religions ought to stop crucifying gay people, especially when you consider the majority of the gay people who are chastised by religions are either secular, or don't affiliate themselves with the accusing religion.

Meanwhile we have religions who punish rape victims, and others who have leaders who molest young boys. Maybe religions should spend more time on getting their own fictional jargon straightened out and less time infringing on the lives of people who present no harm to society, and only offend the traditions of those who let it offend them.

[Live Forever]

The difference, G_Snake, is that if it is inborn, then religious types can not claim that people are "choosing" to "sin". That would be like saying it is a sin to have blue eyes or some other such nonsense. If someone chooses to be homosexual, then I suppose they could be "cured" (as some religious types claim) from their "sinful ways" as well.

However, since it occurs naturally in nature, it is very hard for them to claim that animals "choose" to be gay in such high numbers across all species in roughly the same percentage that occurs in humans. Also, most gay people describe the attractions that they have as inborn and things they have always had. (and this claim that someone has to be abused in some way to be homosexual is just hogwash all around)

In other words, there are very good reasons to argue over whether it is nature vs nurture. I will agree with you that it shouldn't matter and we should treat everyone with respect no matter if the lifestyle they are living is a choice or inborn, but unfortunately the majority of religious types do not feel the same way. :(

[eternaltraveler]

The difference, G_Snake, is that if it is inborn, then religious types can not claim that people are "choosing" to "sin". That would be like saying it is a sin to have blue eyes or some other such nonsense. If someone chooses to be homosexual, then I suppose they could be "cured" (as some religious types claim) from their "sinful ways" as well.

you are aware of the concept of original sin right?

They believe sin is inborn anyway.

[Live Forever]

you are aware of the concept of original sin right?

They believe sin is inborn anyway.

True, but being "saved" requires the desire to stop sinning. If you are choosing to sin it is a lot easier to stop than if it is your very nature to be attracted to someone. Its like the difference between ceasing to shoplift and ceasing to have green eyes.

Plus, just in general, as a society we are held more accountable for the things we choose to do than the things we have no control over.

[eternaltraveler]

original sin means that people have in their very nature the desire to sin, and this must be overcome. But it can't be overcome, so you need to get Jesus to do it for you.

Or some such bullshit.

[Live Forever]

original sin means that people have in their very nature the desire to sin, and this must be overcome.  But it can't be overcome, so you need to get Jesus to do it for you.

Or some such bullshit.

Amen brother. I accept Jesus into my heart.

I still contend that something that is chosen is seen as more reflective on a person (or group of people) and something that they have control over while something that is inborn does not have such connotations. I don't know why religious people would be so quick to fly in the face of evidence to support the "it was their choice to be gay" position otherwise.

[eternaltraveler]

I don't know why religious people would be so quick to fly in the face of evidence to support the "it was their choice to be gay" position otherwise.

I do. It's because they know they don't have any argument at all against rational people otherwise, and their goal is too brainwash as many rational people as they can.

They really don't care whether or not it's a choice, just whether someone acts it out.

[Live Forever]

So they are arguing a position that they don't necessarily believe just to convert people to their way of thinking? I didn't think they thought that far in advance. Perhaps elijah can enlighten us as to why it would be better (in his opinion) for homosexuality to be based on choice instead of being an inborn trait.

[eternaltraveler]

Come now Nate. Don't you know Job? Abraham? Jesus? It's all a test. God gives them this compulsion to be homosexual so they have the opportunity to show how great they are by not giving in to it. It's just their little version of Gethsemane )

[william7]

It happens all the time. I can't believe that you would equate a one time event with something that clearly happens all the time (see the links I provided earlier). It is as "natural" as anything else in nature, I assure you.

You call a low flying jet triggering infanticide in an animal a natural event?

I would suspect that lack of food, reduction in territory size, or other interference in normal mating protocol might cause homosexual behavior in animals on occasion. I can't believe it has anything to do with a fixed genetic trait that makes it inevitable they become homosexual.

[william7]

So they are arguing a position that they don't necessarily believe just to convert people to their way of thinking? I didn't think they thought that far in advance. Perhaps elijah can enlighten us as to why it would be better (in his opinion) for homosexuality to be based on choice instead of being an inborn trait.

We're all inclined to commit sin whether that be violence, theft, adultery, homosexuality, etc. This is pointed out in Genesis 8:21. The key is in learning to overcome this behavior by following God's law and Christ's teachings so you can live a longer and happier life on earth. Deuteronomy 5:33; 6:1-3; Matthew 19:16-17; Revelation 7:14 (I believe those who make their robes white in the blood of the lamb during the great tribulation will learn how to successfully put God's law and Christ's teachings into practice in a communal setting so that sin will be rare or nonexistent). This is what God has been working on for some time now. His eventual goal is the conquering of death, pain and suffering as a part of His taking up permanant residence on earth. Revelation 21:1-4.

[Live Forever]

So they are arguing a position that they don't necessarily believe just to convert people to their way of thinking? I didn't think they thought that far in advance. Perhaps elijah can enlighten us as to why it would be better (in his opinion) for homosexuality to be based on choice instead of being an inborn trait.

We're all inclined to commit sin whether that be violence, theft, adultery, homosexuality, etc. This is pointed out in Genesis 8:21. The key is in learning to overcome this behavior by following God's law and Christ's teachings so you can live a longer and happier life on earth. Deuteronomy 5:33; 6:1-3; Matthew 19:16-17; Revelation 7:14 (I believe those who make their robes white in the blood of the lamb during the great tribulation will learn how to successfully put God's law and Christ's teachings into practice in a communal setting so that sin will be rare or nonexistent). This is what God has been working on for some time now. His eventual goal is the conquering of death, pain and suffering as a part of His taking up permanant residence on earth. Revelation 21:1-4.

Oh I see, so you think that the Bible tells you that 1) it is sin, and 2) one has to commit to sinning.

So, like anything else with the Bible, no matter the real evidence to the contrary, you are predisposed to believe the Bible instead. Makes sense in a certain kind of way, I suppose, but it is just so foreign to the way most of us around here think that it is hard for us to wrap our head around.

[Traclo]

So, like anything else with the Bible, no matter the real evidence to the contrary, you are predisposed to believe the Bible instead. Makes sense in a certain kind of way, I suppose, but it is just so foreign to the way most of us around here think that it is hard for us to wrap our head around.

I agree with Live Forever completely. Some of the things that you mentioned made my jaw drop. Such as: some women should lose weight, to be more attractive, to better bear children (if this is not what was intended, please for the love of god clarify). We left the blind faith in religion in the 15th century

[william7]

but it is just so foreign to the way most of us around here think that it is hard for us to wrap our head around.

That's because your lives are caught up in various sin that you desire to cling to no matter what. You'll never obtain immortality without overcoming the sin.

[william7]

Such as: some women should lose weight, to be more attractive, to better bear children (if this is not what was intended, please for the love of god clarify).

First tell me what your BMI is, then I'll clarify. Here's the website for the BMI calculater. http://72.30.186.56/...&icp=1&.intl=uk.

[william7]

Homosexuality is rampant in the animal kingdom, which makes homosexuality "natural" by definition.

I wish homosexuality would become more rampant in the deer that are eating out of our vegetable garden that I worked so hard in. We don't have any Swiss Chard left. [sad]

[platypus]

I would suspect that lack of food, reduction in territory size, or other interference in normal mating protocol might cause homosexual behavior in animals on occasion. I can't believe it has anything to do with a fixed genetic trait that makes it inevitable they become homosexual.

You can suspect whatever you want but fact remains that homosexuality seems to be a completely normal phenomenon in the animal kingdom. Here's one article that postulates homosexuality being a basic primate pattern not exclusive to man. You do know we're primates too, right???

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pt=AbstractPlus

[william7]

I would suspect that lack of food, reduction in territory size, or other interference in normal mating protocol might cause homosexual behavior in animals on occasion. I can't believe it has anything to do with a fixed genetic trait that makes it inevitable they become homosexual.

You can suspect whatever you want but fact remains that homosexuality seems to be a completely normal phenomenon in the animal kingdom. Here's one article that postulates homosexuality being a basic primate pattern not exclusive to man. You do know we're primates too, right???

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pt=AbstractPlus

Thanks for posting the link. That was very interesting. But, here's what my old anthropology textbook says about primate behavior under captivity.

Just as human beings show signs of stress and abnormal behavior when kept in captivity (Goffman 1961:11), so these animals often responded to crowded, confined conditions by exhibiting highly aggressive and sometimes pathological behavior. But many biologists assumed that the behavior of these imprisoned, neurotic creatures was the same as it would be under natural conditions.

The significance of the difference between these studies becomes clearer in the light of an experiment carried out with peaceable, forest-living baboons in Uganda (Rowell 1967). A troop of these baboons was captured and caged so that they were forced to live in crowded, confined conditions. The result? Fights and aggression became common, and a rigid dominance hierarchy emerged. Thus, as Pilbeam says, the baboons that were first used as models for early hominid society "probably were under stress, in a relatively impoverished environment, pestered by humans of various sorts.

Before I got into the Bible, this is what I use to preach to the prison disciplinary committee when I was before them, and what I use to preach to the courts in civil rights actions seeking humane conditions of confinement.

Infants' first copulations were performed with adults of the same or opposite sex who actively aided them.

I would have to look at the sentencing guidelines to be sure, but I think this would carry about 20 years in the jurisdiction I'm under.

Even though homosexuality and pedophilia may be common in certain primates under unnatural laboratory conditions, I would still be in favor of educating humans to strive for the strongest heterosexual and monogamous marital bond as possible because I believe this is what God wants and what, inter alia, will strengthen the morality of the individual and the community necessary for obtaining a long and happy life and eventually immortality.

[nihilist]

this person has as much of an agenda as any christian. i mean, isnt she on the short list of those who will rot in hell, if such a place exists?

[william7]

Nope, elijah would say the difference noticed in particular brain regions between homosexuals and heterosexuals probably developed as a result of engaging in the particular sexual behavior over time. I figure the brain is like a muscle in many cases. If you use it or work it frequently enough it's going to develop - or become more pronounced - in that particular area.

I'm afraid what you figure is incorrect. Those regions of the brain I mentioned reach their adult state by 2 years of age (most of it occurring in utero). Aside from a few regions such as the hippocampus and olfactory bulb brains in adult mammals are remarkably aplastic. However much research is going into the area to make adult brains more plastic so they can heal from injury and such. There was a few presentations at the SENS III conference on the matter that were very enlightening (but that's starting to get off topic).

I agree. Ex-gay people who've become heterosexuals might show changes in the brain consistent with the sexual change if they do it early enough in life.

as I said, adult brains don't change in the ways you allude (adult meaning older than 2 in this case). You should educate yourself in neuroscience before attempting to debate such things further.

Aha! What about this statement made in this Discover article that says:

"The technique relies on a process called plasticity—the brain’s innate capacity to reshape itself and even increase its complexity throughout a lifetime, depending on experience."

Why I aughta study neuroscience just to show you young folk how to do it right. :smile:

[eternaltraveler]

The technique relies on a process called plasticity—the brain’s innate capacity to reshape itself and even increase its complexity throughout a lifetime, depending on experience.

Yes of course. Certain areas of the brain are quite plastic. The areas I alluded to earlier are not.

[william7]

The areas I alluded to earlier are not.

Or not yet known to be.

Edited by elijah3, 07 December 2007 - 04:45 PM.

[Shannon Vyff]

Well there have been some debates as to the nature of why people become gay in this thread, beyond why it is good or okay to sometimes embrace anger--or even beyond the merits of atheism and the overarching effects of religion upon society.

But, two things happened today that caused me to seek out this thread and post.

1. I read an article in Newsweek that was talking about women who choose to be single parents, and cited a study showing that being a single parent does not always have a negative effect upon the children. Here is the study: http://www.news.corn...arents.ssl.html

2. I was happy to see that Jodie Foster thanked her beautiful partner of 14 years, who is raising their two sons together, and has been there through thick and thin:

http://www.afterelle.....ster?page=1,1

Pictures of her partner and one of them with their youngest son:

http://celebrity.rig...its.com/?p=1981

anyway, go Jodie!

[missminni]

delete please.

Edited by missminni, 14 December 2007 - 10:45 PM.