55 replies to this topic

[jonano]

Hi,

Let me give you my view about the immortality institute.

it's another way for Bruce Klein to earn money from donations without giving any real hardcore services to people. The current Election (currently) under process, under development is a highly pretentious activity only to self perpetuate the structure in place. Structure which consist of getting money from people without giving them what they need. I mean, ImmInst is not offering any life extension products, as crucial as cryonics for example, which alcor is doing.

Basically ImmInst is only a place to discuss, well financed by its members (it's not a donation from ImmInst).

furthermore the election is a real joke, as only the full members are allowed to vote (remind me the time of the greeks when women were unable to vote).

Often, you get a tap on your finger in this forum because you are not free to say what you want, I still dont understand why we cant say what we want, since immortality is a clear debated, already debated concept in the intellectual arena. I mean immortality is not as the 3 traps cryonics, if you want to read about the 3 traps in cryonics go to my imminst blog.

conclusion: ImmInst is a way for "dictators of good reputation" to earn money without giving products or innovations to their member. It's time for rebellion..if you are not a slave..

--Jon

Edited by jonano, 09 January 2008 - 10:28 AM.

[Aegist]

It's time for rebellion..if you are not a slave..

Does that mean you are leaving?

[jonano]

if you dont know what does it mean.., ImmInst will become as bad as the scientology sect ! same unrealizable goal/idealogy.

It's insane to offer so less with so many members!

--Jon

Edited by jonano, 09 January 2008 - 11:36 AM.

[Bruce Klein]

Thanks for posting your concerns, Jon. This allows me the opportunity to clarify. I've never received any money from my work at ImmInst... it's all been volunteer. Basically, I love working w/ great people who are positive and love life... and get excited about the idea of improving our online software tools (recent work) so that we my eventually meet our mission -- otherwise we're dead

Side note... while I think this topic is worthwhile, you tend to post a lot of one or two line topics, w/o following up, which tends to clutter the forums.

[jonano]

Thanks for posting your concerns, Jon. This allows me the opportunity to clarify. I've never received any money from my work at ImmInst... it's all been volunteer. Basically, I love working w/ great people who are positive and love life... and get excited about the idea of improving our online software tools (recent work) so that we my eventually meet our mission -- otherwise we're dead

Side note... while I think this topic is worthwhile, you tend to post a lot of one or two line topics, w/o following up, which tends to clutter the forums.

First of all I think I have the right to decide what to write, secondly I think it's unfair to have membership costs when you offer nothing, you already received 50 000$ from your activities with ImmInst and I dont know and I am not aware what you did with this money, wasted? invested? you are giving a price to immortality. What will happen to people who are not rich enough to become full member? and they have no right to vote even if they are allowed to discuss. I mean if you allow them to join your forum, why they cant vote ? they can join, discuss, write, chat etc.. but they cant vote.. that makes no sense.

we dont know where the money went, you offer ad free content for membership even if there are poor people in your forum. Im speaking for them, for people poor, interested to become immortals.

The only benefit you give to your members, who paid and who make layers of members, you separate people in your forum with labels, memberships etc..

Access Full Member forums (discussion, photos, sharing, projects)
Free of Google ads

Lifenaut is giving 7GB of space for free! You offer no more than 10 mb for each member, so less, so many members.

Also for the projects, I am not aware of this but why not everybody would have the chance to construct freely, ImmInst? To become chiefs, and everybody would have a chance to vote. I often critized the liberty of your members. I dont have so much time to write long pages for you and to continue reading, ImmInst can be a place to get answers of questions you know. Why there would be an attitute/behavior for chatting/writings? We are entering in a sect style phase.

--Jon

Edited by jonano, 09 January 2008 - 12:05 PM.

[Bruce Klein]

First of all I think I have the right to decide what to write, secondly I think it's unfair to have membership costs when you offer nothing, you already received 50 000$ from your activities with ImmInst and I dont know and I am not aware what you did with this money, wasted? invested? you are giving a price to immortality. What will happen to people who are not rich enough to become full member? and they have no right to vote even if they are allowed to discuss. I mean if you allow them to join your forum, why they cant vote ? they can join, discuss, write, chat etc.. but they cant vote.. that makes no sense.

we dont know where the money went, you offer ad free content for membership even if there are poor people in your forum. Im speaking for them, for people poor, interested to become immortals.

The only benefit you give to your members, who paid and who make layers of members, you separate people in your forum with labels, memberships etc..

Access Full Member forums (discussion, photos, sharing, projects)
Free of Google ads

Lifenaut is giving 7GB of space for free! You offer no more than 10 mb for each member, so less, so many members.

Also for the projects, I am not aware of this but why not everybody would have the chance to construct freely, ImmInst? To become chiefs, and everybody would have a chance to vote. I often critized the liberty of your members. I dont have so much time to write long pages for you and to continue reading, ImmInst can be a place to get answers of questions you know. Why there would be an attitute/behavior for chatting/writings? We are entering in a sect style phase.

--Jon

If a member is unable to pay the membership fee, there a good chance ImmInst leadership can work something out. Concerning your allegations, they are false and baseless... plus you seem angry, which doesn't help.

[Bruce Klein]

Concerning financials, ImmInst is a 501c3 so is required to provide the U.S. government w/ a yearly report which is then made public. Also, the ImmInst Treasurer (Justin Loew) publishes a monthly report to Full Members here.

Here's an example for Nov-07:

Opening Balance November 1st = 49389.05

REVENUE
November member contributions: 510.00
Refunded fees from membership cancellations: 0.00
Sponsorship payments: 266.67
Account interest and credits: 175.03
Book1 Royalties: 0.00
Miscellaneous: 0

Total Revenue: 951.70

EXPENSES
Web Hosting: 0.00
Forum Upgrade/Software: 595.84
Mailing Expenses: 0.00
Paypal Fees: 33.13
Membership refunds: 0
Miscellaneous: 0

Total Expenses: 628.97

November Ending Balance: 49711.78

[Bruce Klein]

Lifenaut is giving 7GB of space for free! You offer no more than 10 mb for each member, so less, so many members.

I don't understand where you get the 10 mb number from... but Lifenaut is offering a different service to its membership, which relies on the storage of pictures, videos, etc... much more data storage intensive. In comparison, ImmInst is more focused on providing members a vibrant online community and platform from which to share ideas.

[Bruce Klein]

First of all I think I have the right to decide what to write,

Sorry, you are mistaken. You are encouraged to following posting guidelines and are required to follow the user agreement, or risk loosing privileges. This has been determined by leadership as the most optimal way to ensure we maintain a healthy online community.

[Bruce Klein]

The only benefit you give to your members, who paid and who make layers of members, you separate people in your forum with labels, memberships etc..

I don't make these decisions independently, rather they have been decided on by ImmInst Leadership.

you already received 50 000$ from your activities with ImmInst and I don't know and I am not aware what you did with this money, wasted?

I've never been paid. You may be confused w/ a couple of projects I helped w/... $31,450 for film sponsorship and $15,000 for conference sponsorship, where all funding went to ImmInst.

[Aegist]

Jon,
I don't know why you think this is all Bruce's doing... Yes, he started this, and yes he has done some incredible things (is still doing incredible things!), but he set ImmInst free a long time ago. It was his baby, he nurtured it until it grew into an adult, and then he set it free. He does not control it anymore - it is now run by members who have over time dedicated themselves to supporting and pro-actively promoting and assisting the 'immortalist movement' and in one way or another earnt themselves Navigator/Advisor and/or Director status.

These people, these VOLUNTEERS run ImmInst. Bruce is just one of several such Volunteers who give their time freely to ensure this organisation continues to progress.

So if you are to level criticism at anyone for how ImmInst is run, you have to level it evenly at all directors and not focus on one single person - and most certainly not the most respect worthy of them all - the one person who has given everything and gotten very little in return for his time, effort and dedications. And then if you do insist on levelling criticisms at the leadership, ensure it is justified criticism. As Bruce pointed out, this is a legal NON-PROFIT organisation with thoroughly scrutinised accounts - no one is ripping anyone off, the entire running of ImmInst is for the benefit of the members in light of the goal of practical immortality.

If you don't like how it is run, then you have two options - Instigate change yourself (not by simply complaining, but by making positive things happen), or leave. The upshot of instigating positive change yourself, is that if you keep it up long enough, you may earn your way into a director position yourself... There is no limitation to who can be a director - they just have to hold the interests of the community and the immortalist movement close to their heart.

Edited by Aegist, 09 January 2008 - 12:57 PM.

[Liquidus]

Lifenaut is giving 7GB of space for free! You offer no more than 10 mb for each member, so less, so many members.

I'm not too sure how many people join a futuristic cause concerning themselves with how much webspace they're going to get. You can get upwards to 500GB of webspace for $3 a month if you want to get technical.

I haven't been a member here long, but everytime I read your posts, they come off as pessimistic, calling people out with no real basis to do so. My advice to you is as follows: If you don't like the forums, the institute, or the members, you are not obligated in any capacity to stay here. While I think everyone would agree that this community is open for people to come and go, I personally don't see the positive result in creating topic discussions calling out administration. For $5 a month and the title of full member, I hardly see how Bruce, or anyone else at the institute is 'ripping' people off. I've suspected from my first few days that you could be classified as a forum troll, posts made in this thread reinforce my suspicion.

If you REALLY think that Bruce et al. are pocketing money based on membership subscriptions, I would suggest that you have a very limited knowledge of the maintenance and costs that pop up when running a .com website and institute. The mere fact that you used the Immortality Institute name in the same sentence as Scientology, let alone the audacity to compare them, really discredits the legitimacy of your concerns.

I have a feeling that Jon's apparent deeply rooted concern for the mental freedom (insisting we are 'slaves' if we don't join your self-fulfilling rebellion) of ImmInst members stems beyond the fact that Bruce is apparently running a religious-cult that's stealing our...wait for it...$5 a month, something leads me to believe that jealousy/envy are the result of these posts.

I'd just like to conclude by saying that I'm not trying to defend Bruce, or anyone else here. I'm trying to defend my own integrity as a member of this community and institute. If you genuinely believe that this community is being run in the wrong way, I would invite you to create your own community, where you can be the leader/manager and have complete, unadulterated control of however you want to run your community.

Edited by G Snake, 09 January 2008 - 01:47 PM.

[Bruce Klein]

Jon... in the interest of greater transparency, my primary motivator for advancing ImmInst, and other transhumanist related non-profits, isn't profit motivated... but a fervent wish to speed the day when I can take sex out of my brain... as I explained here in an interview w/ Madeline Minx

[Bruce Klein]

Note that Ben is a prolific writer, so some his writings are intended to be non-academic. Also note we're in the process of organizing the first conf of AGI where all 49 academic papers, of which 5 are co-written w/ Ben, have been recently provided online, so can be read freely here.

[jaydfox]

No time for a formal reply, so just some quick impressions.

First, Bruce has sunk much of his heart and soul into ImmInst, including personal funds. Outside of reimbursements for expenses related to the film and conference, Bruce is probably sitting on a net loss with ImmInst. He's paid for many things out of his own pocket, including sponsoring members.

Second, you seem much more articulate than you were three years ago. I see this as a positive change for you, and I hope that you can learn to channel it more effectively than you have in the past. Anger can be a good thing, if properly focused (let us all rage against death!), so I truly hope you can find your direction and make the positive contributions to the movement that I know you can be capable of.

Third, ImmInst is no longer Bruce's. He long ago turned it over to the rest of the membership. As far as being an insider's club, in the last year or two I've seen many members work their way up from active full members to navigators to directors. I'm talking about people that I would never have pegged for leadership. It's definitely not an insider's club.

[Mind]

It is not unusual for an organization to have paid membership (such as shareholders in a corporation get to vote) or have paid positions. I know Chip has many many many times suggested that Imminst should pay a technical staff - good money too. What has been built so far was due to volunteer efforts, no one has gotten rich off of the Institute. The free speech topic has been brought up a few times before. Immisnt has a free speech forum where you can say anything you like as long as it is not against the laws of the U.S. (which are generally less restrictive than most countries in the world).

[Live Forever]

If Bruce is trying to get rich from ImmInst, he is doing a very poor job of it, haha. For the amount of time that he has dedicated to building ImmInst up, he should be commended, not trolled.

Like others have said, ImmInst is its own entity now, and complaining to or about him is kind of pointless.

If your specific complaint is about the director elections (as the title of this thread implies), then make suggestions on what you think could be improved. Coming off as abrasive and callous is no way to get your thoughts heard or instituted.

[Athanasios]

Now that the concerns have been addressed, I am locking this thread.

[Bruce Klein]

Chris, if you don't mind... I'd like to keep this topic open to see Jon's reply.

[Athanasios]

Chris, if you don't mind... I'd like to keep this topic open to see Jon's reply.

Sure, note that any irrelevant posts or posts that are mostly irrelevant, with some part thrown in that is for measure, will be quickly moderated.

[Bruce Klein]

Sounds good... Jon's initial post seemed borderline considering our posting guidelines:

Forum posts and topics which fail to adhere to these guidelines are subject to moderation as granted by the ImmInst User Agreement.

Courteous

* Be polite when replying to others.
* Avoid using derogatory language.
* Maintain a constructive attitude.
* Attack ideas and not people.

...but seems to have provided a worthwhile opportunity to clarify a few things.

[jonano]

I want to focus my writing on the main idea that I am talking about.

Membership fees are too high. Poor people cannot vote or become full member. 500$ for so less, like you can get 500GB for 3$ a month.

That is the question. I'm speaking in the name of poor people.

I'm not angry, I never been, I just want to push the development of ImmInst, I love to debate.

--Jon

Edited by jonano, 10 January 2008 - 05:11 AM.

[spaceistheplace]

Why not let basic members with a certain post count vote too? (and no, I am not suggesting myself)

They may not be contributing financially, but that musn't be the only reason to listen to them.

Edited by spaceistheplace, 10 January 2008 - 05:44 AM.

[kevin]

I want to focus my writing on the main idea that I am talking about.

Membership fees are too high. Poor people cannot vote or become full member. 500$ for so less, like you can get 500GB for 3$ a month.

That is the question. I'm speaking in the name of poor people.

I'm not angry, I never been, I just want to push the development of ImmInst, I love to debate.

--Jon

Jon,

Truly, I can't really understand how anyone with the computer and internet connection necessary to connect to Imminst in the first place cannot afford the $5 / month (SIXTEEN CENTS A DAY) for membership. If, in some very rare instance, someone truly can't afford even the student membership rate of $20 per year.. (SIX CENTS A DAY) and they REALLY want to vote and have shown themselve to be a CONTRIBUTOR to ImmInst, I'm sure that the PAYING members of ImmInst would be happy to waive the fee.

Although ImmInst is VOLUNTEER driven and run, it still has bills to pay and a mandate to fulfill. This requires some resources and they can only be and SHOULD BE provided by the people who benefit from its existence. I find it hard to believe that the miniscule amount of SIXTEEN CENTS A DAY is beyond people. If people don't think they are getting value worth that, then what the heck are they doing here? The value that ImmInst has to the people who use it regularly is evident. If it weren't here...where would we go? What other community on the internet could possibly replace the community here? There is NONE!

I don't mean to sound harsh, and I know your heart is in the right place, but seriously, the membership fees are not too high...

Edited by kevin, 10 January 2008 - 06:35 AM.

[jonano]

Jon,

Truly, I can't really understand how anyone with the computer and internet connection necessary to connect to Imminst in the first place cannot afford the $5 / month (SIXTEEN CENTS A DAY) for membership. If, in some very rare instance, someone truly can't afford even the student membership rate of $20 per year.. (SIX CENTS A DAY) and they REALLY want to vote and have shown themselve to be a CONTRIBUTOR to ImmInst, I'm sure that the PAYING members of ImmInst would be happy to waive the fee.

Although ImmInst is VOLUNTEER driven and run, it still has bills to pay and a mandate to fulfill. This requires some resources and they can only be and SHOULD BE provided by the people who benefit from its existence. I find it hard to believe that the miniscule amount of SIXTEEN CENTS A DAY is beyond people. If people don't think they are getting value worth that, then what the heck are they doing here? The value that ImmInst has to the people who use it regularly is evident. If it weren't here...where would we go? What other community on the internet could possibly replace the community here? There is NONE!

I don't mean to sound harsh, and I know your heart is in the right place, but seriously, the membership fees are not too high...

You dont know that 75% of people on earth earn no more than 1$ per week (I dont know the real statistics but ImmInst fee is still very high to my eyes for what it does)? Also, ImmInst has operating cost, well someone should donate his money to it. ImmInst should be more friendly supported.

[kevin]

Jon,

Truly, I can't really understand how anyone with the computer and internet connection necessary to connect to Imminst in the first place cannot afford the $5 / month (SIXTEEN CENTS A DAY) for membership. If, in some very rare instance, someone truly can't afford even the student membership rate of $20 per year.. (SIX CENTS A DAY) and they REALLY want to vote and have shown themselve to be a CONTRIBUTOR to ImmInst, I'm sure that the PAYING members of ImmInst would be happy to waive the fee.

Although ImmInst is VOLUNTEER driven and run, it still has bills to pay and a mandate to fulfill. This requires some resources and they can only be and SHOULD BE provided by the people who benefit from its existence. I find it hard to believe that the miniscule amount of SIXTEEN CENTS A DAY is beyond people. If people don't think they are getting value worth that, then what the heck are they doing here? The value that ImmInst has to the people who use it regularly is evident. If it weren't here...where would we go? What other community on the internet could possibly replace the community here? There is NONE!

I don't mean to sound harsh, and I know your heart is in the right place, but seriously, the membership fees are not too high...

You dont know that 75% of people on earth earn no more than 1$ per week (I dont know the real statistics but ImmInst fee is still very high to my eyes for what it does)? Also, ImmInst has operating cost, well someone should donate his money to it. ImmInst should be more friendly supported.

Well.. the individuals who earn less that $1 a week can hardly afford an internet connection, so I don't see how that unfortunately reality can be used as an argument towards making full membership accessible to them.., and as was mentioned before, if someone pleads hardship, they could be sponsored.... but frankly if you don't think that ImmInst provides you personally with value worth 16c a day, just by providing a safe-haven for free-thinking transhumanists.... well.. I'm sorry but I'm completely blown away by that statement, and don't know what to say because I have found ImmInst to be of IMMEASURABLE value in my life so I can't relate at all. ImmInst does have operating costs.. and yes.. the people who use it should support it.. by paying for a MEMBERSHIP

Edited by kevin, 10 January 2008 - 07:11 AM.

[jonano]

Jon,

Truly, I can't really understand how anyone with the computer and internet connection necessary to connect to Imminst in the first place cannot afford the $5 / month (SIXTEEN CENTS A DAY) for membership. If, in some very rare instance, someone truly can't afford even the student membership rate of $20 per year.. (SIX CENTS A DAY) and they REALLY want to vote and have shown themselve to be a CONTRIBUTOR to ImmInst, I'm sure that the PAYING members of ImmInst would be happy to waive the fee.

Although ImmInst is VOLUNTEER driven and run, it still has bills to pay and a mandate to fulfill. This requires some resources and they can only be and SHOULD BE provided by the people who benefit from its existence. I find it hard to believe that the miniscule amount of SIXTEEN CENTS A DAY is beyond people. If people don't think they are getting value worth that, then what the heck are they doing here? The value that ImmInst has to the people who use it regularly is evident. If it weren't here...where would we go? What other community on the internet could possibly replace the community here? There is NONE!

I don't mean to sound harsh, and I know your heart is in the right place, but seriously, the membership fees are not too high...

You dont know that 75% of people on earth earn no more than 1$ per week (I dont know the real statistics but ImmInst fee is still very high to my eyes for what it does)? Also, ImmInst has operating cost, well someone should donate his money to it. ImmInst should be more friendly supported.

Well.. the individuals who earn less that $1 a week can hardly afford an internet connection, so I don't see how that unfortunately reality can be used as an argument towards making full membership accessible to them.., and as was mentioned before, if someone pleads hardship, they could be sponsored.... but frankly if you don't think that ImmInst provides you personally with value worth 16c a day, just by providing a safe-haven for free-thinking transhumanists.... well.. I'm sorry but I'm completely blown away by that statement, and don't know what to say because I have found ImmInst to be of IMMEASURABLE value in my life so I can't relate at all. ImmInst does have operating costs.. and yes.. the people who use it should support it.. by paying for a MEMBERSHIP

you can think what you want, but personally I think it should be 100% free, with no guidelines also. I hope the guidelines will shrink and not grow. Total liberty, 100% free. I dont want to put money in ImmInst. I dont have that money. Alot of basic members would like to be full members and be more active. I cannot afford 5$ per month, since ImmInst only provide me a way to get feedbacks from people and meet people. Facebook is free so why not ImmInst?

[Live Forever]

Facebook is free so why not ImmInst?

Facebook is for profit and ad driven. ImmInst is non-profit and donations driven.

You keep comparing what you get for what you pay. (hosting, etc.) ImmInst isn't a profit driven company trying to provide you with a service of any kind; The money given is a donation towards the many things ImmInst does in outreach efforts, operational costs, etc.