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Supplement Regime For Chronic Autoimmune Disease ?


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#1 youandme

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 12:17 PM


Hi All

Ive been reading quite a bit ..yet just like many I get confused as to what are the best Supps for me with my particular chronic conditions...perhaps you could possibly help.
My body started to attack itself after a life threatening bout of adult chicken pox 24 months ago and Camplyobacter infection 2.5 yrs ago.

Basically those Conditions I now suffer are all Autoimmune in nature:
Hashimotos - Antibodies affecting thyroid (thyroid replacement being taken)
Gastirc Parietal cell Antibodies - Attacking the Stomach Lining Cells - affecting Nutrient Absorption (including B12)
Sjogrens - Antibodies attacking moisture producing glands (eyes, mouth, internal organs)..no effective treatment for this..

Ankolysing Spondilitis - Arthritis affecting Pelvis/Vertebrae
Also have a high liver function test (GGT) Doctors still no idea what that is yet !

Anyhow currently Im taking:

Milk Thistle 200mg x2
Alpha Lipoic Acid 200mg x 2
Selenium 200mg x2
Omega 3 (400 EPA, DHA 200) x 4
Glucosamine 1500mg x 1
B12 5000 mcg x1 (sublingual)
Billberry 2.5mg x 1 for eyes
Currently Trialing an Antioxidant Blueberry Punch see link below:
http://www.usyd.edu....ewsstoryid=2077

btw, the worst symptom is Dry Eyes from the Sjogrens...no treatment exists apart from steroid drops and toxic drops like Restasis (not available in my country)
The lack of moisture in my eyes can be caused by the inflammation from cytokines
Sjogrens is not very well understood yet..but it has been suggested that these factors play a part...Cox 2 is about to be investigated for it's role if any..

Some - Sjogrens Inflammation Factors - (Currently Known !)
interleukin-1beta (IL-1beta), IL-6, CXCL8 (IL-8), IL-12 p40, IL-15,
tumour necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha),
epidermal growth factor,
CCL4 (MIP-1beta), CCL2 (MCP-1),
CCL11 (Eotaxin), CCL5 (RANTES),
TNF-RI and TNF-RII
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15182255


What do people think might help me !?

thanks in advance for any help





#2 Brainbox

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 03:54 PM

Good starting point for any condition. In your situation, exploration with a sensible level of reservation might be the way to go. The immune enhancing properties of certain supplements might be contra-productive.

Edited by brainbox, 27 April 2008 - 03:55 PM.


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#3 Matt

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 04:06 PM

There is also something called calorie restriction which can sometimes 'eliminate' or reduce auto antibodies. I know that it totally prevents Sjogren's disease in animals...

I posted this in another forum for some people that got 'floxed' by quinolone antibiotics, but this might be useful for you as you have some real immune disorders which is found on blood results and other tests?


Calorie Restriction
Calorie restriction was able to prevent salivary gland dysfunction and damage by eliminating the rise in TNF-a and IL6 in these mice. CR is effective in preventing this auto immune disease. CR is known to be effective in MS, Lupus, Sjogren's, and other auto immune diseases.

Effects of calorie restriction on transforming growth factor beta 1 and proinflammatory cytokines in murine Sjogren's syndrome.

The present study was carried out to determine whether restricting dietary calories prevents salivary gland abnormalities and modulates expression of transforming growth factor beta and proinflammatory cytokines, IL-6, and TNF alpha in major salivary glands (SG) of autoimmune lupus-prone (NZB x NZW)F1 (B/W) female mice. These mice develop focal lymphocytic interstitial and periductal round cell infiltrates in salivary glands similar to those of humans with Sjogren's syndrome. Weanling B/W mice were fed a nutritionally adequate semipurified diet either ad libitum (AL) or a calorie-restricted (CR; 40% less calories than AL) diet. The mice were sacrificed at 3.5 months (young) and 8.5 months (old) of age. Histopathologic and histomorphometric analyses as well as growth factor and cytokine protein and mRNA expression were carried out in the SG.

Histomorphometric analysis of SG from young mice showed no differences between AL and CR mice, but old AL (vs old CR) had a 7.3-fold higher focus score and a 34-fold increase in percentage area inflammation.

mRNA analysis revealed significantly higher levels of TGF beta 1 in SG of old CR (6.8-fold) mice. In contrast, CR reduced mRNA expression of proinflammatory cytokines (IL-6, 2.9-fold for young and 4.8-fold for old; TNF alpha, old 3.9-fold). By immunoblotting, significantly higher levels of TGF beta 1 protein was detected in old CR mice (vs old AL; 13.2-fold). IL-6 and TNF alpha proteins were undetectable in both young and old CR groups, whereas an increase in IL-6 (4.7-fold) and TNF alpha (9.3-fold) was observed in old AL mice.

These results indicate that amelioration of the histological severity of disease in SG of B/W mice is paralleled and possibly mediated by increased expression of immunosuppressive TGF beta 1 and decreased expression of proinflammatory cytokines


OMEGA 3
http://www.docguide........rs&count=10

"For patients who received the fish-oil supplement, there were significant improvements in unstimulated salivary flow rate (P <.01), stimulated salivary flow rate (P <.48), and dry mouth symptom improvement (P <.0002). No significant improvements were seen in either stimulated or unstimulated saliva production among patients who received the placebo."

"However, there were significant improvements in dry eye symptom scores for patients who received the fish and flaxseed oil supplements (43% of the omega-3 group vs. 14% of the placebo group).

Improvements in dry mouth symptoms were also verified through dental exams. Gingival and plaque scores were improved by 71% and 53% respectively in the study group, and Perception of oral improvement was noted in 61% of the omega-3 group and 36% of the placebo group."

Green tea
http://www.news-medical.net/?id=23932

Green tea may help protect against autoimmune disease, Medical College of Georgia researchers say.

Researchers studied an animal model for type I diabetes and primary Sjogren's Syndrome, which damages the glands that produce tears and saliva.

They found significantly less salivary gland damage in a group treated with green tea extract, suggesting a reduction of the Sjogren's symptom commonly referred to as dry mouth. Dry mouth can also be caused by certain drugs, radiation and other diseases.

Approximately 30 percent of elderly Americans suffer from degrees of dry mouth, says Dr. Stephen Hsu, a researcher in the MCG School of Dentistry and lead investigator on the study. Only 5 percent of the elderly in China, where green tea is widely consumed, suffer from the problem.

"Since it is an autoimmune disease, Sjogren's Syndrome causes the body to attack itself and produce extra antibodies that mistakenly target the salivary and lacrimal glands," he says.

There is no cure or prevention for Sjogren's Syndrome.

Researchers studied the salivary glands of the water-consuming group and a green tea extract-consuming group to look for inflammation and the number of lymphocytes, a type of white blood cells that gather at sites of inflammation to fend off foreign cells.

The group treated with green tea had significantly fewer lymphocytes, Dr. Hsu says. Their blood also showed lower levels of autoantibodies, protein weapons produced when the immune system attacks itself, he says.

Researchers already know that one component of green tea , EGCG , helps suppress inflammation, according to Dr. Hsu.

"So, we suspected that green tea would suppress the inflammatory response of this disease. Those treated with the green tea extract beginning at three weeks, showed significantly less damage to those glands over time."

These results, published in a recent issue of Autoimmunity, reinforced findings of a 2005 study showing a similar phenomenon in a Petrie dish, Dr. Hsu says.

Researchers also suspect that the EGCG in green tea can turn on the body's defense system against TNF-alpha , a group of proteins and molecules involved in systemic inflammation.

TNF-alpha, which is produced by white blood cells, can reach out to target and kill cells. "The salivary gland cells treated with EGCG had much fewer signs of cell death caused by TNF-alpha," Dr. Hsu says. "We don't yet know exactly how EGCG makes that happen. That will require further study. In some ways, this study gives us more questions than answers."

Further study could help determine green tea's protective role in other autoimmune diseases, including lupus, psoriasis, scleroderma and rheumatoid arthritis, he says.


Green tea polyphenols reduce autoimmune symptoms in a murine model for human Sjogren's syndrome and protect human salivary acinar cells from TNF-alpha-induced cytotoxicity.
Hsu SD, Dickinson DP, Qin H, Borke J, Ogbureke KU, Winger JN, Camba AM, Bollag WB, Stöppler HJ, Sharawy MM, Schuster GS.

Department of Oral Biology and Maxillofacial Pathology, School of Dentistry, Medical College of Georgia, Augusta, GA, USA. shsu@mail.mcg.edu

Sjogren's syndrome (SS) is a relatively common autoimmune disorder. A key feature of SS is lymphocytic infiltration of the salivary and lacrimal glands, associated with the destruction of secretory functions of these glands. Current treatment of SS targets the symptoms but is unable to reduce or prevent the damage to the glands. We reported previously that the major green tea polyphenol (GTP) epigallocatechin-3-gallate (EGCG) inhibits autoantigen expression in normal human keratinocytes and immortalized normal human salivary acinar cells (Hsu et al. 2005). However, it is not known whether GTPs have this effect in vivo, if they can reduce lymphocytic infiltration, or protect salivary acinar cells from tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha)-induced cytotoxicity. Here, we demonstrate that in the NOD mouse, a model for human SS, oral administration of green tea extract reduced the serum total autoantibody levels and the autoimmune-induced lymphocytic infiltration of the submandibular glands. Further, we show that EGCG protected normal human salivary acinar cells from TNF-alpha-induced cytotoxicity. This protection was associated with specific phosphorylation of p38 MAPK, and inhibitors of the p38 MAPK pathway blocked the protective effect. In conclusion, GTPs may provide a degree of protection against autoimmune-induced tissue damage in SS, mediated in part through activation of MAPK elements.

Edited by Matt, 27 April 2008 - 04:14 PM.


#4 Matt

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 04:13 PM

Consider taking Vitamin D3 too. It is very good at regulating the immune system and has been shown to be protective against autoimmune diseases.

#5 DukeNukem

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 06:43 PM

Vit. D3, without question.

http://www.nutriphobia.com

Listen to #5 and #6.

#6 krillin

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 10:19 PM

Niacinamide might help.

#7 youandme

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 11:55 AM

Hi Guys

Thanking all of you for your responses.

Brainbox...interesting reading the LEF site..thanks...thymus extract they recommend might be contra as it has Echinacia that stimulates the immune system..so perhaps it might make things worse ?!?
Goldenseal is also mentioned ..what is Goldenseal ?? anyone with useful experience of this thanx

Matt..thx for posting info & for a very interesting read on 'quinolones' you have prompted me to find out if I were given these...!
Ive tried Green tea supps and drink about 4 cups..cant say it has helped much for me...but I still drink it just in case.
Ive also lost 30kilograms in the last 8 months so CR is not really helping..perhaps it works in mice but not humans ;)

Vitamin D3...funny Im just back from a sunny holiday and I feel better ! Coincidence hmmmm...but then you have The Marshall Protocol that says thou shall not recieve Vitamin D3...I hope he is not right...because D3 supping is something I could try.


DukemNukem
Loved that game btw !...showing my age LOL...thanks for the link..Vit D3 Mr Trevor Marshall has to be wrong right ?!

btw how much D3 should I be looking at taking..?...winter here now. Thx.

Hi Krillin
Niacinamide - ...thanx will look into that.


Of interest came across "Resolvins" today..perhaps an interesting read for some
"Resolvins are a recently discovered family of naturally-occurring, small molecule lipid mediators"

http://www.resolvyx....ology/index.asp
http://www.resolvyx....ases/042408.asp

Edited by youandme, 28 April 2008 - 12:17 PM.


#8 Matt

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 01:25 PM

Let me know what medication you had taken. If you took one of the quinolones I'll give you the info you need about this kind of reaction.

Edited by Matt, 28 April 2008 - 01:26 PM.


#9 krillin

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 09:16 PM

The best thymic protein is supposed to be Proboost Thymic Protein A. It's expensive, so I just take a packet once a week and tell myself it's a maintenance dose. The best price is usually to be had at valuenutritioncenter, valuenutrition, myvitanet, or drkowalski. (They're all the same company, but the prices are different on each site and change periodically. They also count as drugstores if you have a Citi Dividend or Chase Cash Plus Rewards.)

If you're worried about D, test for both 1,25 D and 25-D. If your 1,25-D is awfully high, then Marshall might be worth listening to. Always periodically test 25-D to keep it in the desired range. Most sources say 40-50 ng/ml.

#10 youandme

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 11:11 AM

The best thymic protein is supposed to be Proboost Thymic Protein A. It's expensive, so I just take a packet once a week and tell myself it's a maintenance dose. The best price is usually to be had at valuenutritioncenter, valuenutrition, myvitanet, or drkowalski. (They're all the same company, but the prices are different on each site and change periodically. They also count as drugstores if you have a Citi Dividend or Chase Cash Plus Rewards.)

If you're worried about D, test for both 1,25 D and 25-D. If your 1,25-D is awfully high, then Marshall might be worth listening to. Always periodically test 25-D to keep it in the desired range. Most sources say 40-50 ng/ml.


thx Krillin for your info..I will investigate Proboost.

With the Niacinamide...do you mean to take it to somehow Boost Tryptophan levels...I say that because Im sure read somewhere that it boosts the creation or such like of tryptophan by 40% ..

And then today I find that Tryptophan has been cited as a possible Immunomodulator,..Tranilast a synthetic version has been cited as beneficial for MS..as with all drugs that are used with one Autoimmune disease perhaps their is some use with this in other Autoimmune diseases.
And I might get a good nights sleep.

So really my question is will Niacinamide boost Tryptophan levels somehow..and if yes do I still need to supp tryptophan ?

Thanks for the info about Vit D will get it checked next serum test.

http://venturebeat.c...rug-new-tricks/ Tranilast

http://www.bio-pro.d...3026/index.html

MS Therapy- "The degradation of tryptophan in the body leads to a variety of metabolites, including kynurenines. Platten was able to show that these kynurenines prevent the T-cells from destroying the myelin. It is noteworthy that this is achieved through the activation of other immune system cells: kynurenines activate regulatory T-cells which are subsequently directed against destructive T-cells "

Sounds like supping Tryptophan would increase the number of policing T Reg Cells which would help get my immune system back to a better order.

Anyone supping Tryptophan ? any Contras to taking it..and how much does one take ...safe dosage ?

Thanks again to all who help

Edited by youandme, 29 April 2008 - 11:40 AM.


#11 krillin

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 08:42 PM

With the Niacinamide...do you mean to take it to somehow Boost Tryptophan levels.

Sounds like supping Tryptophan would increase the number of policing T Reg Cells which would help get my immune system back to a better order.

I'm unaware of any significant effect of niacinamide on tryptophan levels. Most of the literature is on using it for type I diabetes and RA. The mechanism might be partially sirtuin related, so resveratrol might exacerbate things for you.

If you want to boost T regs, you could look into LDA shots, DHEA (PMID: 16252254), or parasite infection.

#12 youandme

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 11:28 PM

With the Niacinamide...do you mean to take it to somehow Boost Tryptophan levels.

Sounds like supping Tryptophan would increase the number of policing T Reg Cells which would help get my immune system back to a better order.

I'm unaware of any significant effect of niacinamide on tryptophan levels. Most of the literature is on using it for type I diabetes and RA. The mechanism might be partially sirtuin related, so resveratrol might exacerbate things for you.

If you want to boost T regs, you could look into LDA shots, DHEA (PMID: 16252254), or parasite infection.


Krillin, thankyou for that post !!

Nice work..thanks heaps..Ive been trying to find something that boosted T Reg cells for an age...now you pop in with three other options..! Thankyou.

LDA Shots - Dr Shephard from what Ive read so far is making good sense.

Not sure I understand why Resvratrol might make things worse..could you explain it to me...Im a Resvratrol newbie..

Seems that Tryptophan also helps boost T reg ..noted that the fruit Durion is high in Tryptophan..might buy me one today...

#13 krillin

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 01:33 AM

Not sure I understand why Resvratrol might make things worse..could you explain it to me...Im a Resvratrol newbie..

Everything I know on the subject is contained in this thread.

#14 lynx

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 01:59 AM

Plain old caffeine works at lowering tnf-alpha. Tnf-alpha will screw up your liver, hence elevated enzymes.

Int Immunopharmacol. 2004 Oct;4(10-11):1409-17. Links
Caffeine suppresses TNF-alpha production via activation of the cyclic AMP/protein kinase A pathway.Horrigan LA, Kelly JP, Connor TJ.
Department of Pharmacology, National University of Ireland, Galway, University Road, Galway, Ireland. louise.horrigan@nuigalway.ie

This study investigated the effect of in vitro exposure to caffeine, and its major metabolite paraxanthine, at concentrations relevant to typical caffeine consumption in humans, on lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-stimulated cytokine production in human whole blood. In addition, a role for the cyclic AMP/protein kinase A (PKA) pathway in the immunomodulatory effect of caffeine was investigated. Diluted whole blood (taken following >/=15 h abstinence from caffeine-containing food and beverages) was preincubated with caffeine or paraxanthine (10-100 microM) and stimulated with LPS (1 proportional, variant g/ml) for 24 h. The proinflammatory cytokines tumour necrosis factor (TNF)-alpha, interleukin (IL)-1beta and IL-12, and the antiinflammatory cytokine IL-10 were measured in cell-free supernatants. Whilst caffeine and paraxanthine had little or no effect on IL-10, IL-1beta, or IL-12 production, TNF-alpha production was suppressed in all individuals studied. The effect was statistically significant at 100 microM and consistent across seven experiments performed. Although not statistically significant, a similar effect was observed with paraxanthine. Caffeine (100 microM) also increased intracellular cyclic AMP concentrations in LPS-stimulated monocytes isolated from whole blood. Moreover, the effect of caffeine on TNF-alpha production was abolished by pretreatment with the protein kinase A inhibitor Rp-8-Br-cAMPS (10(-4) and 10(-5)M). To conclude, this study demonstrates that concentrations of caffeine that are relevant to human consumption consistently suppress production of the proinflammatory cytokine TNF-alpha in human blood and that this effect is mediated by the cyclic AMP/protein kinase A pathway.

PMID: 15313438 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



#15 youandme

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 10:17 AM

Plain old caffeine works at lowering tnf-alpha. Tnf-alpha will screw up your liver, hence elevated enzymes.

Int Immunopharmacol. 2004 Oct;4(10-11):1409-17. Links
Caffeine suppresses TNF-alpha production via activation of the cyclic AMP/protein kinase A pathway.Horrigan LA, Kelly JP, Connor TJ.
Department of Pharmacology, National University of Ireland, Galway, University Road, Galway, Ireland. louise.horrigan@nuigalway.ie

This study investigated the effect of in vitro exposure to caffeine, and its major metabolite paraxanthine, at concentrations relevant to typical caffeine consumption in humans, on lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-stimulated cytokine production in human whole blood. In addition, a role for the cyclic AMP/protein kinase A (PKA) pathway in the immunomodulatory effect of caffeine was investigated. Diluted whole blood (taken following >/=15 h abstinence from caffeine-containing food and beverages) was preincubated with caffeine or paraxanthine (10-100 microM) and stimulated with LPS (1 proportional, variant g/ml) for 24 h. The proinflammatory cytokines tumour necrosis factor (TNF)-alpha, interleukin (IL)-1beta and IL-12, and the antiinflammatory cytokine IL-10 were measured in cell-free supernatants. Whilst caffeine and paraxanthine had little or no effect on IL-10, IL-1beta, or IL-12 production, TNF-alpha production was suppressed in all individuals studied. The effect was statistically significant at 100 microM and consistent across seven experiments performed. Although not statistically significant, a similar effect was observed with paraxanthine. Caffeine (100 microM) also increased intracellular cyclic AMP concentrations in LPS-stimulated monocytes isolated from whole blood. Moreover, the effect of caffeine on TNF-alpha production was abolished by pretreatment with the protein kinase A inhibitor Rp-8-Br-cAMPS (10(-4) and 10(-5)M). To conclude, this study demonstrates that concentrations of caffeine that are relevant to human consumption consistently suppress production of the proinflammatory cytokine TNF-alpha in human blood and that this effect is mediated by the cyclic AMP/protein kinase A pathway.

PMID: 15313438 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Thanks Lynx
Who would have thought that just caffeine could help...this goes with drinking green Tea I guess which is good...unfortunately it makes ones mouth drier..one of the effects of Sjogrens is Dry Mouth..so I will have a limit.

#16 youandme

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 10:40 AM

With the Niacinamide...do you mean to take it to somehow Boost Tryptophan levels.

Sounds like supping Tryptophan would increase the number of policing T Reg Cells which would help get my immune system back to a better order.

I'm unaware of any significant effect of niacinamide on tryptophan levels. Most of the literature is on using it for type I diabetes and RA. The mechanism might be partially sirtuin related, so resveratrol might exacerbate things for you.

If you want to boost T regs, you could look into LDA shots, DHEA (PMID: 16252254), or parasite infection.


Krillin, thankyou for that post !!

Nice work..thanks heaps..Ive been trying to find something that boosted T Reg cells for an age...now you pop in with three other options..! Thankyou.

LDA Shots - Dr Shephard from what Ive read so far is making good sense.

Not sure I understand why Resvratrol might make things worse..could you explain it to me...Im a Resvratrol newbie..

Seems that Tryptophan also helps boost T reg ..noted that the fruit Durion is high in Tryptophan..might buy me one today...


Krillin
Read the thread..thanks for the pointer..I also started to do some google researching on Autoimmune and Resvratrol.
A mixed bag of results but mostly positive..one thing I did read is that Resvratrol makes some cells more sensitive to TNF Alpha and thus cell destruction..thats ok if the cells are rogue ...bad if they are normal..then one reads that Resvratrol inhibits TNF Alpha..so Resvratrol seems to act in complex wide ranging ways and in this instance almost Paradoxically.

http://molpharm.aspe...tract/72/6/1508 Resvratrol & MS - positive
http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=1810449 Confirming Resvratrol is Anti Inflammatory
http://www.springerl...28774rug243315/ A Positive for Arthritis

Clearly Resvratrol has a bit to do via more research before Im convinced its a big positive for Autoimmune Conditions.

#17 youandme

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 10:43 AM

For the Record I ate the fruit of the Durian...hmmm its a bit of an acquired taste !
It smells BAD and has consistency of guts lol...I had read it tastes like Ice Cream..I beg to differ... :)

I might try supping Tryptophan instead of eating Durian for it..

#18 youandme

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 05:00 AM

This might be known already to many but for those that dont....

Probiotics:
Ive been researching Probiotics...and wow..a lot of new research is really coming back positive for the use of them for Anti-inflammatory purpose..and therefore Autoimmune Diseases.

Today Ive found they also promote T Reg cells...a surprise I didnt expect to find that ! Have a check out of the link.
Who would have though that Yogurt could increase T Reg Cells in the body.

http://www.healingpe...rticles/pro.pdf

Certain Bacteria Strains do different things ! and or are more effective immunodulators or antiinflammatory.

Also after much research..the best way to get these into the body and be useful..appears to be plain old yogurt !
Further the idea for me will be to now make my own and add live cultures from probiotic capsules to make the most potent mix and volume of pro bacteria..

Currently Im making a list of the most effecient strains for my purpose...promote T Reg Cells..and promote maximum anti inflammotory response.

making ones own Probiotic Yogurt seems very easy to do..and is way cheaper as you can reuse a portion of the each batch to make another about 4 times.
Making ones own with several beneficial strains is going to be way-more potent than any single capsule or strain.

Will see how we go.

#19 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 06:02 AM

Coincidentally I was planning to make a batch of uber Lactobacillus GG yogurt tomorrow using Culturelle capsules. I'll let you know how it turns out. There should be hundreds of billions per cup in theory.

I'm going single strain only, because Lactobacillus GG is the most researched strain out there, proven to survive stomach acid and bile, proven to colonize the GI, proven to stimulate the immune system (regulate might be a better word), and its aggressive and hardy enough to compete with pathogens for intestinal real estate. I'll breed an elite army of super bacteria in my kitchen tomorrow.... muahaha :)

#20 youandme

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 02:29 PM

Coincidentally I was planning to make a batch of uber Lactobacillus GG yogurt tomorrow using Culturelle capsules. I'll let you know how it turns out. There should be hundreds of billions per cup in theory.

I'm going single strain only, because Lactobacillus GG is the most researched strain out there, proven to survive stomach acid and bile, proven to colonize the GI, proven to stimulate the immune system (regulate might be a better word), and its aggressive and hardy enough to compete with pathogens for intestinal real estate. I'll breed an elite army of super bacteria in my kitchen tomorrow.... muahaha :)



Go For it Funk !

Your right with that strain not a bad one to start with.....and also going single strain....not much research gone into using a mix of strains...though some research has suggested a mix still works...but with so many possible combinations..who knows what is the best.

All the best
I will be joining you soon breeding Billions...yes Billions of Billions of Bacteria muhaha too ! :~
Thank goodness they are all friendly..lol

#21 Brainbox

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 03:07 PM

It was my understanding that there are a diversity of strains active. Depending on the location, one or more strains would be dominant.
Just like (F)OS, which has dominant (or effective) forms, different molecule sizes, depending on location.

Would a massive supplementation with one single item have the possibility to become disruptive in stead of beneficial?

Edited by brainbox, 04 May 2008 - 03:09 PM.


#22 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 03:36 AM

The gut flora are probably the most poorly studied and understood aspect of the human body -- only a small fraction of the total number of species and strains have been identified. We only have a vague idea of what is in there, and no idea what combination and numbers of bacteria are optimal or how best to influence them. What we do have is alot of trial (specifically, human trials) and error, demonstrating that supplementation with a single strain confers various health benefits. Some studies using combinations of bacteria have been conducted but they are very few and far between. Lactobacillus GG is the most researched strain, having been the subject of over 250 studies, and I have yet to see a single one suggest anything but positive results from supplementation with it.

There are a couple reasons why supplementing with massive numbers of a single strain is unlikely to be disruptive. First, none of the currently available probiotic bacteria can permanently implant in the gut. They may colonize the GI to a degree while you are taking them, but within a week or two of ceasing to ingest them, they are completely gone. Secondly it is important to keep these "massive" numbers in perspective. Even if you're getting some 500 billion of a particular friendly strain daily, which requires prescription strength VSL #3, expensive Custom Probiotics formulations, or homemade uber yogurt, you're dumping them into a pool of approximately 100 trillion organisms. They'll be lucky to make a dent, let alone a typical 10 billion CFU probiotic supplement.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 05 May 2008 - 03:37 AM.


#23 youandme

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 12:17 PM

Well Ive made my first Uber yogurt...Im using a probiotic yogurt starter for the first attempt..and added one probiotic capsule.

Tommorrow will be the taste test..

Plan to make it from scratch when I get a abit more experienced



For Funk

What is your source for your Lactobacillus GG strain ?

#24 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 12:47 PM

I'm getting Lactobacillus GG from Culturelle capsules. Unfortunately my first experiment was a failure, I think I grew something in the milk, but it wasn't Lactobacillus GG! :) Tasted like cheese, bleck, no lactic acid. I don't think the Lactobacillus GG is able to start culturing the milk at its original pH, another culture (traditional yogurt culture maybe) might be needed to jumpstart the process. I guess there is a difference between surviving vs. thriving at a wide range of pH's. This is unfortunate though because if I introduce other cultures I will have no idea what ratio or numbers of each I end up with.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 06 May 2008 - 12:48 PM.


#25 youandme

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 01:03 PM

I'm getting Lactobacillus GG from Culturelle capsules. Unfortunately my first experiment was a failure, I think I grew something in the milk, but it wasn't Lactobacillus GG! :) Tasted like cheese, bleck, no lactic acid. I don't think the Lactobacillus GG is able to start culturing the milk at its original pH, another culture (traditional yogurt culture maybe) might be needed to jumpstart the process. I guess there is a difference between surviving vs. thriving at a wide range of pH's. This is unfortunate though because if I introduce other cultures I will have no idea what ratio or numbers of each I end up with.


Yeah you might need a 'starter' but then as you say you wont be so sure what you end up with...and that is the problem with what we trying..
You could find a basic Natural Acidopholus yogurt and use it as the starter..that would be about as good as you might get perhaps.

Mine will be a mix of 4 studied beneficial strains..will post how it tastes.. :)

Edited by youandme, 06 May 2008 - 01:03 PM.


#26 youandme

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 09:24 AM

Yogurt tastes ok.. !
..and Im stilll here LOL

Coincidentally Im back from seeing a Gastro Specialist ...and he swears by Probiotics...!! He reckons they are better than any drug he could presscribe for IBS/IBD..

He also mentioned that he knows of a study that had two strains mixed ingested and caused obesity ! (not the common strains we are using)
I could have talked to him for longer but I was there on business.

Anyhow at least I know Im doing the right thing for me..

#27 youandme

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 10:55 AM

Found a Multi Vitamin that also has Probiotic strains incorporated in the tablets.
Im not advocating but I might try them anyway...got to be better than my current MV (Centrum)

http://www.swisse.co...ens.asp#glucose


Swisse Ultivite Specifics - Ingredients

Swisse Men's Ultivite Glucose Balance Danchor
Each Tablet Contains:

RETINYL ACETATE
(equiv. to 2500 IU of vitamin A)

862.5 mcg

d-ALPHA-TOCOPHERYL ACID SUCCINATE
(equiv. vitamin E 30 IU)

25 mg

THIAMINE HYDROCHLORIDE (vitamin B1)

60 mg

RIBOFLAVINE (vitamin B2)

35 mg

NICOTINAMIDE (vitamin B3)

55 mg

CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE (vitamin B5)
(equiv. pantothenic acid 54.97 mg) (equiv. calcium 5.03mg)

60 mg

PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE (vitamin B6)
(equiv. pyridoxine 15.96mg)

20 mg

CYANOCOBALAMIN (vitamin B12)

120 mcg

CHOLECALCIFEROL (vitamin D3)
(equiv. vitamin D 200 IU)

5mcg

BIOTIN (vitamin H)

200 mcg

FOLIC ACID

500 mcg

CALCIUM ASCORBATE DIHYDRATE (vitamin C)
(equiv. ascorbic acid 165.3mg)

200 mg

PHYTOMENADIONE (vitamin K1)

70 mcg

CHOLINE BITARTRATE

20 mg

INOSITOL

20 mg

CITRUS BIOFLAVONOIDS EXTRACT

100 mg

CALCIUM OROTATE
(equiv. calcium 2mg)

20 mg

MAGNESIUM ASPARTATE DIHYDRATE
(equiv. magnesium 7.42mg)

110 mg

SELENOMETHIONINE
(equiv. selenium 26mcg)

65 mcg

MOLYBDENUM TRIOXIDE
(equiv. molybdenum 45mcg)

67.5 mcg

CHROMIUM PICOLINATE
(equiv. chromium 50 mcg)

402 mcg

MANGANESE AMINO ACID CHELATE
(equiv. to manganese 5mg)

50 mg

COPPER GLUCONATE
(equiv. copper 3mg)

21.43 mg


POTASSIUM IODIDE
(equiv. iodine 40mcg) (equiv. potassium 12.32mcg)

52.32 mcg

ZINC AMINO ACID CHELATE
(equiv. zinc 20mg)

100 mg

Lactobacillius rhamnosus

80 million organisms

Lactobacillus acidophilus

80 million organisms

Bifidobacterium longum

35 million organisms

VACCINIUM MACROCARPON FRUIT DRY (patented cranberry PACRAN)

1000 mg

SILYBUM MARIANUM DRY FRUIT (St. Mary’s Thistle)
(equiv. flavanolignans calculated as silybin 13.71mg)

1200 mg

GINKGO BILOBA LEAF DRY (Maidenhair tree)
(equiv. Ginkgo flavonglycosides 4.8mg and ginkgolides and bilobalide 1.2mg)

1000 mg

VITIS VINIFERA DRY SEED (Grape Seed)
(equiv. procyanidins 7.9mg)

1000 mg

SERENOA REPENS DRY FRUIT (Saw palmetto)
(equiv. fatty acids 9mg)

100 mg

URTICA DIOICA DRY LEAF (Nettle)

100 mg


TRIGONELLA FOENUM-GRAECUM DRY SEED (Fenugreek)

18750 mg

CINNAMOMUM CASSIA DRY STEM BARK (Cinnamon)

100 mg

GYMNEMA SYLVESTRE DRY LEAF (Gymnema)

100 mg

UBIDECARENONE (Co-enzyme Q10)
(from patented Ultrasome CoQ10)

1 mg

CYNARA SCOLYMUS LEAF DRY (Globe artichoke)

50 mg

VACCINIUM MYRTILLUS FRUIT DRY (Bilberry)
(equiv. anthocyanosides 648mcg)

200 mg

CRATAEGUS MONOGYNA FRUIT DRY (Hawthorn)

100 mg

SPEARMINT OIL

2 mg

#28 krillin

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 03:04 AM

The best thymic protein is supposed to be Proboost Thymic Protein A. It's expensive, so I just take a packet once a week and tell myself it's a maintenance dose. The best price is usually to be had at valuenutritioncenter, valuenutrition, myvitanet, or drkowalski. (They're all the same company, but the prices are different on each site and change periodically. They also count as drugstores if you have a Citi Dividend or Chase Cash Plus Rewards.)

After reverse-engineering my latest Chase bill, I'm confident that LEF counts as a drugstore, while iHerb, Puritan's Pride, BAC, Bulk Nutrition, Superior Nutraceuticals, and Netriceuticals are in the general 1% back category. The math works out perfectly that way, but I haven't proven that that is the only possibility.

#29 wayside

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 03:13 AM

After reverse-engineering my latest Chase bill, I'm confident that LEF counts as a drugstore, while iHerb, Puritan's Pride, BAC, Bulk Nutrition, Superior Nutraceuticals, and Netriceuticals are in the general 1% back category. The math works out perfectly that way, but I haven't proven that that is the only possibility.


Since LEF has a pharmacy and sells actual prescription drugs, and none of those other places do, this would make perfect sense.

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#30 youandme

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 10:50 AM

Hi Guys been a while..needed to update regimen.

I stopped all supps for 3 weeks...now im revisiting what I take.
Ive issues with Liver Function Tests...they show something going on..Doc's currently baffled...also the chronic fatigue is creeping up on me currently. So to rework a regimen to help


SAM-e x1 400mg ( Currently being clinically trialled for Primary Biliary Cirrhosis ..I might have this)
Milk Thistle x2 200mg
Omega 3 (400 EPA/200DHA x 4
B12 5000mcg x1 (sublingual)
Lactobacillus reuteri x2 - Proven to increase T-reg cell count...the policemen of our immune system.
Uber Homemade Probiotic Yogurt x 1 server a day

So Ive rationalised a bit....
I also bought Now's 'Liver Detoxifier & Regenerator..however it has Dandelion in it which maybe contra to any Liver biliary disease...of which Im still to confirm or not is the problem. So I will hold of on that one for a while.

I also for health

Eat & drink
3-4 cups green tea with lemon juice - for EGCG and Caffiene (Caffiene proven to promote T-reg cells)
Dark Choc - 30-40grams Lindt (70 or 85 % Cocoa Solids)

Breakfast
100grams mixed Berry with either Rice/Museli or Whole Grain Oats and honey.

General
Mixed Vegies, protein (Meat, Fish)
(ELISA Allergy test has shown issue with dairy, durum wheat, soya bean, cola nut, yeast, corn, rye.)

If anyone has any ideas please let me know.

I was looking at the thymus extract for Liver issues ...Krillin mentioned Thymus in an earlier post..Ive found it was used with reported success in a Primary biliary Cirrhosis study back in 92...however I cant find any repeat studies and I scratch my head as to why..especially if success was seen first time round ?!

I would try some thymus but Im not sure if it will Rev up the immune system and increase inflammation..can anyone put me straight on this one ?

Cheers

Edited by youandme, 01 July 2008 - 11:29 AM.





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