55 replies to this topic

[Zans Mihejevs]

This is a question to people who pay conscious attention to their health (eg practice a healthy diet, have a supplement regime or exercise).

How many hours do you sleep per night? Does your lifestyle let you feel more energized with less sleep, or do you sleep for a few extra hours for added energy? Also, if your sleep schedule is different than the standard 8 hour block, please elaborate why.

Sleep has been a topic of my interest for years, and I'm very eager to hear some comments on this.

[VictorBjoerk]

This hasn't to do with practising a healthy diet.But where I live not so far from the arctic circle I've noticed that I sleep 10-11 hours a day during the continues darkness during the winter and then during the summer where the sun doesn't settle very much at all I only sleep about 4-5.I just can't sleep any more because it's enough!
So the difference is very big,at least for me!
This phenomenon is of course very well known,studied,and experienced by many people but as you see the difference in sleep requirements.is more between winter and summer than just half an hour or so.And I have generally much less energy during the winter months too.This phenomenon increases with higher latitudes and is less pronounced with lowers.

I've always been wondering what happens with a person who stays at the north pole during the 6 month long constant daylight and then immediately goes to the southpole.I wonder if this person will be able to maintain good health with very low sleep requirements or if this pattern will change so the sleep requirement sooner or later take it's toll.

Edited by Shonghow, 09 May 2008 - 11:20 PM.

[donjoe]

Here's an article about sleep with many detailed explanations and links:
http://www.supermemo...icles/sleep.htm

---

- After all, Number One, we're only mortal.
- Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever.

Edited by donjoe, 25 May 2008 - 12:27 AM.

[Ben]

Here's an article about sleep with many detailed explanations and links:
http://www.supermemo...icles/sleep.htm

- After all, Number One, we're only mortal.
- Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever.

This isn't properly referenced. And by that I mean the author uses no in text references at all.

[eldar]

Sleep, one of my favorite topics!

I have, for some time now, been interested in trying out a polyphasic sleep schedule, but it isn't clear how good that would be life extension wise. Hence, I have yet not done so.
There really isn't any research that would clarify this one way or the other, so it basically comes down to subjective choice. Which is not good. There should be research done, since if adopted, polyphasic schedule would save so much time. (obviosly not for people who get by with 4-5 hours sleep with normal sleep pattern)

Edited by ceth, 25 May 2008 - 01:26 AM.

[forever freedom]

I guess this link could interest you: Sleep less, Live longer


As for me, unfortunately i need 8 of sleep a night, being able to function normally with 7 hours (but i think that i would feel some effects after a few weeks, since i do feel a bit sleepy sometimes in the day), and after i'm on a 6 hour a night sleep pattern for more than some days, don't get me in front of a TV for too long or i'll shut down.

With less than 6 hours of sleep per night i'll be a walking zombie within 5 days at most, i think (but i've bever experienced deprivating myself from sleep for much long, so i probably could live with it but would function in a very less than ideal state).



As for your health, i believe that different people have different sleeping needs. I have friends that sleep 6 hours a night and feel perfectly fine. There are people who need even less, although it's rare. If you can go through your day without problem with X amount of sleep, then that's the ideal for you.

[ajnast4r]

i feel more alert and energized on 6-7 hours... but when im lifting heavy i NEED 8 to recover properly

[JohnDoe1234]

Like ajnast4r, I work best on 6-7 hours, but given the chance I'll easily grab myself 12-13

[spaceistheplace]

my job is very physically demanding so i often need 9 hours of sleep.

i've experimented with several different polyphasic sleep schedules and had the most success with a biphasic sleep cycle with consisted of a 3 hour nap in the early morning and a 1.5 hour nap mid afternoon.

[Heliotrope]

i wonder too, how much is too much, how little is too little.

i've heard british scientists found out that sleeping too much is like eating too much, very harmful, best to sleep average a bit less??

[Johan]

I sleep 7-8 hours/night and feel perfectly fine. I can deal with 6 hours/night occasionally, but not during prolonged periods. I generally sleep a bit longer during winter months.

[eldar]

i've experimented with several different polyphasic sleep schedules and had the most success with a biphasic sleep cycle with consisted of a 3 hour nap in the early morning and a 1.5 hour nap mid afternoon.

Did you have to keep the timing of the naps constant? Or was it possible to move them around a bit without experiencing adverse effects? How long did you do it and how tired were you on average?
This sounds like a schedule that I might be willing to try.

[Mind]

From what I have read, most studies suggest 7 to 9 hours is optimal for a healthy adult. More or less than that has detriments.

[donjoe]

This isn't properly referenced. And by that I mean the author uses no in text references at all.

:rolleyes: OK, don't even take the time to read it, just pass judgement on it immediately, 'cos that's gonna help everyone lots and lots and lots.

I guess this link could interest you: Sleep less, Live longer

Great article, thanks! Although, of course, the disruptive effect of the alarm clock and its consequences on your energy/alertness level throughout the day, I think, should still be taken into account. On the topic of how to satisfy both these criteria (sleep only about 6-7 hours a night and avoid regularly jolting yourself awake with an alarm), I'd recommend the first book I've read about sleep: "How to Sleep Less and Have More Energy Than You Ever Had Before", something I came across last year.

---

- After all, Number One, we're only mortal.
- Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever.

[Matt]

I need about 8-10 hours sleep to feel good all day. If I get only 5-6 hours I feel terrible, especially towards the end of the day, both mentally and physically.

Edited by Matt, 25 May 2008 - 02:19 PM.

[Matt]

i wonder too, how much is too much, how little is too little.

i've heard british scientists found out that sleeping too much is like eating too much, very harmful, best to sleep average a bit less??

Couldn't it just be that people who sleep longer have more health problems? Like a marker of health rather than a 'cause' of bad health. Therefor if we had some intervention trial to restrict heavy sleeper I feel that it would be detrimental to their health, not beneficial.

[eldar]

From what I have read, most studies suggest 7 to 9 hours is optimal for a healthy adult. More or less than that has detriments.

Well, it seems this is not so. At least according to the study posted above, which says that 6-7 hours is optimal. In addition to that, I find it interesting that people who sleep 4 hours seem to live longer than those who sleep >9 hours. Of course this might be due to, like Matt said, longer sleeping people having poorer health, which in turn makes them sleep more.

[spaceistheplace]

i've experimented with several different polyphasic sleep schedules and had the most success with a biphasic sleep cycle with consisted of a 3 hour nap in the early morning and a 1.5 hour nap mid afternoon.

Did you have to keep the timing of the naps constant? Or was it possible to move them around a bit without experiencing adverse effects? How long did you do it and how tired were you on average?
This sounds like a schedule that I might be willing to try.

My core nap was often from 4-7AM and the other from 6-7:30PM, but it could vary by as much as two hours and felt fine. This was during a spectacularly creative period, and I would not recommend it as a way of life. Although it took a few days to get used to it, I did not find myself diminished in any capacity. Eventually I was unable to keep up with the schedule and it became a free-running sleep (up for 2-3 days, sleep an entire day). Again it really helps to have a reason for doing this.

Edited by spaceistheplace, 25 May 2008 - 11:40 PM.

[zoolander]

I guess this link could interest you: Sleep less, Live longer

From the paper quoted in the above article

Currently, we do not know why sleep exceeding 7.5 hours was associated with excess mortality. Sleep duration in itself may not be a causal factor. Our group has suggested that sleep apnea might be a crucial underlying abnormality

the above is an interesting point. Sleep quality is more than likely a more important issue. Perhaps if a similar study to the above study that is controlled for normal sleep by using a PSG test would be a more appropriate assessment. I know that it may sound dramatic but if you need more than 9 hours sleep a day and suffer from day time sleepiness I'd recommend you have a sleep study done. Just to be sure that you don't have sleep disordered breathing such as sleep apnea. I'm a very healthy individual with none of the risk factors for sleep apnea but I have severe obstructive sleep apnea. Additionally, if you can afford the extensive tests, discuss calculating your optimum sleep time with the sleep lab. Otherwise you can calculate your optimum sleep time at home. You will need a controlled 2 week period. Here's how I would do it;

1. Wash out. (approximately 1 week);
No stimulants a week prior. Eliminate habits that are counter productive to sleep. These include drinking alcohol before bed, sitting in front of a computer screen and so on. Search around and you'll find recommendations of what not to do before bed

2. Normalise (approximetly 1 week);
For 7 days sleep up to 10 hours per night. Such would generally make up for any sleep deficits. Don't use an alarm to wake yourself up before the 10 hours so make sure you go to bed at least 10 hours before you need to wake

3. Calculate (approximately 1 week);
Go to bed at the same time every night for 7 days. Write down the time. Wake up naturally without an alarm but once again don't sleep beyond the 10 hour mark. After you wake up write down the time and calculate how long you slept. After you have completed the 7 days add up the amount of hours you slept for the week and then divide by 7 to get the average (eg. 8.5+7.6+7.8+7.5+.......= 52/7= 7.42) convert that value into hours (eg. 7.42= 7 hours 25 min [60minutes*0.42=25.2]).

Proving that there is no sleep disordered breathing (or any other pathology that would effect sleep) and you control this little experiment as much as possible by eating your normal diet and going to bed at the same time that you would normally then it should give you a rough estimate of how much sleep is optimal for you. Of course if you change or revert back to your lifestyle habits after the test the above value may change. Interestingly, when I was a lot younger and completed the home test I started to wake well before my alarm when off. I would always wake immediately after my 4th REM (6hr45-7hrs15) of the night. Waking up after an REM phase is said to be the best time to wake because it's right at the top of the sleep cycle where most of the brain activity occurs. In comparison to waking up when in stage 4 NREM sleep. Doing that usually means you wake feeling like you've been hit by a truck.



The added bonus of waking after an REM phase are the memories of vivid dreams, unless they are nightmares that you can't deal with. I'm not going to rave about dreams because I've done that somewhere else and I'm starting to sound like a broken record.

Sleep phase alarm clocks such as AXbo and SLEEPTRACKER can also be useful for some.

[Ben]

This isn't properly referenced. And by that I mean the author uses no in text references at all.

:rolleyes: OK, don't even take the time to read it, just pass judgement on it immediately, 'cos that's gonna help everyone lots and lots and lots.

Did I really pass judgement on it? I would say that what I wrote is more an observation, allowing others to draw their own conclusions on narrow distribution internet articles that cite no references.

- After all, Number One, we're only mortal.
- Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever.

Indeed sir? Jolly good old boy! Cheerio.

Oh and most of what I've read supports 7-9 with the young needing more and the old needing less.

[donjoe]

I started to wake well before my alarm when off. I would always wake immediately after my 4th REM (6hr45-7hrs15) of the night.

That's exactly what the "Sleep Less and Have More Energy" book got me doing, albeit I could only sustain the habit during the summer (I'm currently hoping to get back into it ASAP). With the small difference that my 4th cycle usually ended in about 6:30 (but I never counted the first 15mins after lying down, I just left them out as the "falling asleep" interval).

what I wrote is more an observation, allowing others to draw their own conclusions on narrow distribution internet articles that cite no references.

There you go with that blatant lie again. *Sigh* I give up. Indeed others can draw their own conclusions, so I'll let them.

Indeed sir? Jolly good old boy! Cheerio.

You make it sound as if my signature quote were British, whereas it's from a quite American production called "Star Trek: Generations".

---

- After all, Number One, we're only mortal.
- Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever.

[Ben]

donjoe are you sure this is the forum for you?

[platypus]

Although, of course, the disruptive effect of the alarm clock and its consequences on your energy/alertness level throughout the day, I think, should still be taken into account.

That's a non-issue today as sleep-phase alarm clocks are on the market:

http://www.axbo.com

I've been using mine for less than a week so too early to make a review but the thing does wake me up when I'm sleeping very very lightly, i.e. with minimal disruption.

[ajnast4r]

anyone else used aXbo or sleeptracker?

In comparison to waking up when in stage 4 NREM sleep. Doing that usually means you wake feeling like you've been hit by a truck.

yea man, i try to set my alarm for intervals of 90 minutes (+15 to actually fall asleep). i find that waking up on that 90 minute mark (6hr/7.5hr) makes a pretty big different in how i feel when i wake up and during the day.

Edited by ajnast4r, 26 May 2008 - 04:03 PM.

[eldar]

Although, of course, the disruptive effect of the alarm clock and its consequences on your energy/alertness level throughout the day, I think, should still be taken into account.

That's a non-issue today as sleep-phase alarm clocks are on the market:

http://www.axbo.com

I've been using mine for less than a week so too early to make a review but the thing does wake me up when I'm sleeping very very lightly, i.e. with minimal disruption.

The problem with these is that they only work if you sleep alone. If you sleep with a girlfriend/wife/etc. it's pretty useless. That is because it monitors your body movements, and there tends to be extra movement when not sleeping alone.

[donjoe]

Although, of course, the disruptive effect of the alarm clock and its consequences on your energy/alertness level throughout the day, I think, should still be taken into account.

That's a non-issue today as sleep-phase alarm clocks are on the market:

That was news to me when I read it here. Previously I only knew about some student experiment made a while back with some brain scanning contraption telling the alarm clock when to ring - something very non-marketable at that point.

But is that movement assumption generally valid? Does everyone start to toss and turn more when they're at the end of a sleep cycle? I for one don't remember ever getting any indication that I tend to move much during sleep. If I try to remember all the times I've fallen out of bed (while not completely awake) I can probably count them on the fingers of one hand. So I'm not sure such a clock would do much for me.

---

- After all, Number One, we're only mortal.
- Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever.

[platypus]

Although, of course, the disruptive effect of the alarm clock and its consequences on your energy/alertness level throughout the day, I think, should still be taken into account.

That's a non-issue today as sleep-phase alarm clocks are on the market:

That was news to me when I read it here. Previously I only knew about some student experiment made a while back with some brain scanning contraption telling the alarm clock when to ring - something very non-marketable at that point.

But is that movement assumption generally valid? Does everyone start to toss and turn more when they're at the end of a sleep cycle? I for one don't remember ever getting any indication that I tend to move much during sleep. If I try to remember all the times I've fallen out of bed (while not completely awake) I can probably count them on the fingers of one hand. So I'm not sure such a clock would do much for me.

Everyone moves during sleep, except during REM-sleep when the body is paralyzed. I think that aXbo detects the transition out of REM-sleep and wakes you up right there. There is a fair amount of sleep-research behind the technology. Anyway, the clock seems to work, for example this morning it woke me at 6:18 (alarm set for 6:30) when I was sleeping very lightly. Since at that point I had had only 5+ hours of sleep I set the alarm again at 7:30 and was woken up just after REM at around 7:23. I'm starting to like this clock a lot, I'll keep you guys posted and I'll also send in my sleep-patterns once I've downloaded them from the clock.

Edited by platypus, 27 May 2008 - 08:47 AM.

[donjoe]

I think that aXbo detects the transition out of REM-sleep and wakes you up right there. [...] for example this morning it woke me at 6:18 (alarm set for 6:30) when I was sleeping very lightly.

And how's the experience of it? Is it annoying in any degree? What does it make you think/feel as it goes off? (I'm pretty sure what they have on the website aren't all the device's alarms, so maybe you could also mention what sound you've chosen.)

I'm just curious, I don't think I'll be getting one anytime soon. I'd rather keep the EUR200 ($315) and stick to:
- going to sleep when I feel sleepy;
- setting my alarm at 4 cycles + 15 to 30 minutes (and expecting to wake up before it goes off);
- getting out of bed the second I open my eyes;
- drawing the curtains to start taking in natural light immediately;
- exercising a bit to raise my temperature faster (accentuates the circadian rhythm);
- taking all oportunities to step outside during office breaks, to get long looks at sunlit scenery (breaks down the melatonin, again accentuating the circadian rhythm) and maintain my high body temperature (same here);
- making sure the room is as dark as possible before I go to bed (favours melatonin synthesis during the night phase of the circadian rhythm) and not too warm.

---

- After all, Number One, we're only mortal.
- Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever.

Edited by donjoe, 27 May 2008 - 10:32 AM.

[platypus]

I think that aXbo detects the transition out of REM-sleep and wakes you up right there. [...] for example this morning it woke me at 6:18 (alarm set for 6:30) when I was sleeping very lightly.

And how's the experience of it? Is it annoying in any degree? What does it make you think/feel as it goes off? (I'm pretty sure what they have on the website aren't all the device's alarms, so maybe you could also mention what sound you've chosen.)

I'm using the one with birds singing, it's not annoying as it starts quietly and I'll be sleeping lightly anyway.
Even though the experience is not annoying, it does not mean that I would not want to sleep more as I rarely catch enough sleep to feel refreshed first thing in the morning. By the way, if the clock does not detect end of REM-sleep, it waits until the set alarm-time and sounds a regular alarm-clock sound.

[quintin3265]

Consider what happens when the amount of sleep you get is totally irrelevant. That's the case with me - I've been struggling with mania for years, and taking Depakote plus Lamictal plus Ambien is still not enough to prevent me from insomnia almost every night.

On the days when I do get a normal amount of sleep, I feel as bad as on the days when I can't fall asleep at all, and amount of sleep makes little difference to my health. Low sleep mortality figures may be higher since sleepy drivers fall asleep at the wheel, or sleepy people operate dangerous equipment, or they die through other accidents caused by grogginess. One should also remember that my condition means that I have a 1 in 8 chance of dying by suicide at some point in my life, and all the others with manic episodes are pushing up the death rate for those who get little sleep.

On the side of getting too much sleep, those with narcolepsy could suffer from a cataplectic attack in the middle of the street and be killed by a passing motorist. Or someone who is being treated for possibly terminal cancer spends most of her time sleeping from fatigue resulting from chemotherapy.

I say that (if not plagued by insomnia) you should sleep however much you want to sleep. There isn't yet any definitive evidence that adjusting sleep amount will have some effect on your future health.