46 replies to this topic

[nowayout]

Sorry to hear that. Well, it doesn't take much to be more effective than an SSRI, which are no more effective than placebo overall if all studies are taken into account. In fact, there are studies showing SSRIs to be worse than placebo in the long run (and the short, if you are as old fashioned as to care about side effects such as death), so even if fish oil is simply like a placebo, it will probably outperform an SSRI after 3 or 6 months.

You are wrong, flat out wrong. Have you taken an SSRI for six months or more? If not, don't say a word about SSRI's. Until you have experienced their effect yourself, don't go blabbing on about a few studies.

SSRIs work. I was on Zoloft for 7 years. I got off it cold turkey and did ok for a few months. Five months after cessation, I had a major mixed episode, one like I had never experienced in my life. SSRIs do something, and that someting is good for many people that take them. It's not a sugar pill, it's not a placebo effect, it's the real deal. 5ht reuptake inhibition, sigma 1 receptor antagonism or agonism, immunomodulation, and restoration of HPA axis function(which is often impaired after chronic depression/stress/anxiety)-are all things shown in research to be likely part of the therapeutic benefit of SSRIs.

Stop being ignorant. Make sure you've done all your research and had plenty of experience before making statements about SSRIs.

Unfortunately you are the one who are wrong. Unmedicated depression is usually self-limiting but not when SSRIs are taken. SSRIs tend to make you worse in the long term in the sense that they appear to cause deleterious adaptations in the brain that tend to make your depression chronic, even if you stay on them. Convenient for those who sell them, isn't it? SSRIs set the stage for relapsing depression and they tend to make any relapses worse than they would have been otherwise. This is precisely the lesson from studies, if you would bother to dig a little deeper, and the anecdotal experience that you posted with the intent of to shooting me down unintentionally CONFIRMS precisely my point.

Edited by viveutvivas, 15 February 2012 - 07:56 PM.

[TheKidInside]

I agree with whoever said none of these things treat the underlining problems. you need a really good therapist as well, whether it's a hypnotherapist or a GOOD shrink

Also, I am SHOCKED by this as almost all neurological literature and authors I've come across always talk about DHA > EPA...

[hippocampus]

this has already been discussed: DHA = structure, EPA = function. I've seen a lot of studies who have shown that EPA but not DHA has antidepressant qualities (and maybe even antipsychotic). can you point me to these studies that say DHA > EPA?

[Logan]

Vive, I am bipolar. I had bad episodes in the past. I was undiagnosed at the time of my last major one, a time when a perfect storm of events/circumstances-turning35, realizing I had beat my body up pretty badly, coming to a reality I was not willing to face regarding my ex girlfriend, coming to the reality that I was starting to show signs of aging, and being unprotected by medication for the first time in 7 years. If you new more about how mental illness can progress, and how it can come on much stronger at different times in one's life at stages of greater vulnerability. Bipolar is something that is commonly seen to worsen more than ever before been the ages of 35 nd 40. One of the reasons for this is the inability to manage emotions with the powers of feeling young and invincible.

Im also not so sure you are aware

[Logan]

Vive..im also not sure you are aware of the damage that severe chronic depression/anxiety, and bipolar episodes can do to the brain. You have to take this into consideration when coming to the conclusion that it is just the SSRI causing symptoms of depression to be worse later. You also have to consider other factors, like drinking excessive alcohol, lack of exercise, lack of proper diet, lack of emotional healing/growth, and most importantly-the changes and damage that come with aging.

[Logan]

Vive..im also not sure you are aware of the damage that severe chronic depression/anxiety, and bipolar episodes can do to the brain. You have to take this into consideration when coming to the conclusion that it is just the SSRI causing symptoms of depression to be worse later. You also have to consider other factors, like drinking excessive alcohol, lack of exercise, lack of proper diet, lack of emotional healing/growth, and most importantly-the changes and damage that come with aging.

[nowayout]

Logan I am sorry about your problems, but there is evidence that antidepressants can actually do more harm to the brain than depression itself. There is good evidence from many studies showing antidepressants making depression more likely to become chronic, making relapses more likely, and even as culprits in the conversion of ordinary depression into bipolar disease (three times as many patients treated with antidepressants convert to bipolar than do those not so treated). A lot of relevant information are in these slides: http://www.madinamer...re%282%29-1.pdf See also http://en.wikipedia...._of_an_Epidemic

By the way, I share your concern regarding brain damage, in my case due to years of chronic pain, which has been shown to cause rapid loss of brain mass in studies. I was on Tramadol for 2 years for that. Tramadol is actually an SNRI with effect very similar to Effexor, and its analgesic action is thought to be more due to this than its weak opioid receptor agonism. It is indeed prescribed as an antidepressant in some countries. In any case, it worked very well for my pain and my mood initially (so I do have personal experience of what taking an antidepressant feels like) and really helped me get through a horrible breakup besides what it did for my pain, but eventually caused more problems than it was solving.

Edited by viveutvivas, 17 February 2012 - 11:45 PM.

[nupi]

So an Opioid that just so happens to also be an SNRI let's you conclude about SNRI and SSRI in general?

There's plenty of things wrong with SSRIs but MAOI or no treatment at all is not exactly a superior alternative either (I know there are a couple of other odd anti depressants with their own pros and cons)

[nowayout]

So an Opioid that just so happens to also be an SNRI let's you conclude about SNRI and SSRI in general?

No, I didn't conclude anything based on that.

[TheKidInside]

I'm not by a computer at the moment but i've listened to several shows on Sean Croxton's Underground Wellness with some neurologists and they always said DHA over EPA (taking both but making sure more DHA is contained (60/40). Unless, I am completely getting this wrong, which I don't believe I am. anyhow,

there's an interesting thread on another forum talking about this very same topic...

http://www.depressio...-lifting-moods/

[Reformed-Redan]

Been taking SJW from Kira, exercising, and 2g fish oil. It's all good. Oh, and some occasional Syrian Rue. The exercising part is most effective, definitely.

Edited by redan, 21 February 2012 - 07:11 AM.

[hippocampus]

I'm not by a computer at the moment but i've listened to several shows on Sean Croxton's Underground Wellness with some neurologists and they always said DHA over EPA (taking both but making sure more DHA is contained (60/40). Unless, I am completely getting this wrong, which I don't believe I am. anyhow,

there's an interesting thread on another forum talking about this very same topic...

http://www.depressio...-lifting-moods/

well, I've tried different EPA:DHA ratios. 3:2 is a true mood stabilizer and antidepressant for me, 5:1 didn't make any greater difference, but 2:3 make me depressed and confused in only few days. Maybe it was bad quality but I doubt it since I've been buying "normal" fish oil from the same producer. So I don't need any studies to tell me what will work for me. OTOH, I eat a good amount of fish which have more DHA than EPA so I don't think I get too much of any.

[TheKidInside]

I'm not by a computer at the moment but i've listened to several shows on Sean Croxton's Underground Wellness with some neurologists and they always said DHA over EPA (taking both but making sure more DHA is contained (60/40). Unless, I am completely getting this wrong, which I don't believe I am. anyhow,

there's an interesting thread on another forum talking about this very same topic...

http://www.depressio...-lifting-moods/

well, I've tried different EPA:DHA ratios. 3:2 is a true mood stabilizer and antidepressant for me, 5:1 didn't make any greater difference, but 2:3 make me depressed and confused in only few days. Maybe it was bad quality but I doubt it since I've been buying "normal" fish oil from the same producer. So I don't need any studies to tell me what will work for me. OTOH, I eat a good amount of fish which have more DHA than EPA so I don't think I get too much of any.

I didn't mean to say that research > your experience. I completely agree that personal anecdotal experience > any study (especially since virtually all have some sort of research bias in them). I was also mistaken it is indeed almost always EPA greater than DHA content I honestly don't know why I thought the opposite (darn dyslexia)

I'm glad it's helped you. It has done so for me too. I feel very stable during the winter months, whether you believe in SAD or not. there's something about gloomy dark grey skies in NYC (with all the concrete and lack of nature) that gets to most people I know.

[wowser]

my sister suffers from depression. she tried fish oil but it made her depression a lot worse to the extent that she took an overdose. fortunately someone found her in time. i've read fish oil can work both ways, i think people need to be careful

[JChief]

I'm not by a computer at the moment but i've listened to several shows on Sean Croxton's Underground Wellness with some neurologists and they always said DHA over EPA (taking both but making sure more DHA is contained (60/40). Unless, I am completely getting this wrong, which I don't believe I am. anyhow,

there's an interesting thread on another forum talking about this very same topic...

http://www.depressio...-lifting-moods/

well, I've tried different EPA:DHA ratios. 3:2 is a true mood stabilizer and antidepressant for me, 5:1 didn't make any greater difference, but 2:3 make me depressed and confused in only few days. Maybe it was bad quality but I doubt it since I've been buying "normal" fish oil from the same producer. So I don't need any studies to tell me what will work for me. OTOH, I eat a good amount of fish which have more DHA than EPA so I don't think I get too much of any.

Who knows but perhaps my taking the fish oil (EPA/DHA combo) with my uridine led to the antidepressant qualities I enjoy? I always have taken both in tandem. 100mg uridine of the TAU variety with food combined with the fish oil. I use the Perque offering called EPA/DHA Guard. After 2-3 softgels combined with the uridine I can feel the difference. I cycled it for no reason/fun really and am starting back up but here is the label reading on the ratio of the EPA/DHA formula:

Serving Size: 2 softgels Servings Per Container: 30 Amount Per Serving: Marine lipid oil 1650 mg EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) 660 mg DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) 500 mg Gelatin 428 mg Lemon oil 40 mg Purified water 66 mg Glycerin 198 mg Directions: As a dietary supplement, take two (2) softgels a day or as directed by your health professional.

[Verne]

DHA over EPA (taking both but making sure more DHA is contained (60/40).

I've tried different EPA:DHA ratios. 3:2 is a true mood stabilizer and antidepressant for me, 5:1 didn't make any greater difference, but 2:3 make me depressed and confused in only few days.

Well, shit. Conflicting dosages achieving different results. Never a simple answer...
I've been supplementing with EPA/DHA for about four years or so now - I haven't really bothered taking note of any beneficial/negative effects since I just take it out of habit now. Each capsule contains 175mg EPA and 70mg DHA, so my dosage is similar to that of hippocampus who recommends an EPA:DHA ratio of 3:2. I usually take 4 capsules a day for a total of 700mg EPA: 280mg DHA. At this point there's no telling if it helps me or not. I could stop supplementing right now, but I'm in the midst of a depressive episode so I'd prefer not to make any drastic changes. :/

[TheKidInside]

OK guys I wasn't crazy about my previous statements. I looked at my Omega 3 and the ratio I was previously stating was indeed, the correct one as far as it being on the bottle goes.