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Retin A question for High Sun Exposure Holliday


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#1 Chiggy

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 04:55 AM


Hello All,

Apologies for all the questions!

I recently started to use Retin A after reading lots of good stuff from Frederick and Eva.

In about 2 months I will be taking a long holiday by the sea, and a lot of time will be spent in the sun on the beach etc, its unavoidable, and will be very hot so little clothing will be worn.

I will continue my sun block usage with Nivea light feeling 50+ on my body and La Roche Athelios Fluide 50+ on my face while I am on holiday.

If I stop my retin A use before the trip (due to excessive sunlight exposure) will any positive changes be reversed back to their original state or will the repairs to my skin be permanent?

Also, after stopping will I be at an increased risk of skin cancer due to my previous Retin A usage, and will my skin be still more sensitive to the sun.

Is it ok to stop and start with Retin A usage.

I also plan to use Melanotan to build up a healthy tan before my trip without sun exposure, I also read that this should help protect me more from the sun?

Thanks in advance.

Chiggy.

Sorry ignore the spelling mistake the subject.

Edited by Chiggy, 14 May 2008 - 04:58 AM.


#2 dehbleh

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 02:02 PM

Okay, having had a bit of experience using Retin-A (and testing its limits during periods of sun exposure), I would strongly recommend that you cease using it at least 2 weeks prior to commencing your holidays. If you give your skin a resting period (to resume normality) then you won't be increasing your risk of skin cancer.

Upon ceasing Retin-A, the outer later of your skin will begin to thicken up and will take on the appearance you had prior to using Retin-A. The good news is that any changes beneath your top layer of skin (collagen, specifically) are there to stay so you are still going to have better skin than you did before.

Take my advice on this... it doesn't matter how much sunscreen or zinc you use, Sun + Retin-A do not mix!!!!!!

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#3 Eva Victoria

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 02:57 PM

Hello All,

Apologies for all the questions!

I recently started to use Retin A after reading lots of good stuff from Frederick and Eva.

In about 2 months I will be taking a long holiday by the sea, and a lot of time will be spent in the sun on the beach etc, its unavoidable, and will be very hot so little clothing will be worn.

I will continue my sun block usage with Nivea light feeling 50+ on my body and La Roche Athelios Fluide 50+ on my face while I am on holiday.

If I stop my retin A use before the trip (due to excessive sunlight exposure) will any positive changes be reversed back to their original state or will the repairs to my skin be permanent?

All the positive changes will be reversed after some month after stopping using Retin-A (tretinoin).

Also, after stopping will I be at an increased risk of skin cancer due to my previous Retin A usage, and will my skin be still more sensitive to the sun.

You won't be more at risk of skin cancer than you normally would be after stopping Retin-A.
It is possible that in the first month after quitting you'll be more sensitive to UVR, and burn easily. since the skin has not the chance to thicken its Epidermis.


Is it ok to stop and start with Retin A usage.

Yes. Even though there is not much point in starting anthen stopping and destroying the effects with sunlight :(

I also plan to use Melanotan to build up a healthy tan before my trip without sun exposure, I also read that this should help protect me more from the sun?

I don't know much about this unless it is the one that is given in tablets/ injected in the skin. Then it is a dangerous option.

I would add that even in a tropical climate it is possible to wear a broad-brimmed hat, sunglasses and thin coloured clothing to protect oneself from sunlight.

Sunlight itself is what destroyes the skin, UVA adds additional damage + UVB damages DNA.
Today's sunscreens only partially protect against UV rays. UVA protection is still not good enough :( (The proof is that you still get a "healthy" tan even you reapply your SPF50+ European made photostable sunscreen every 2 h :( (TAN means SKIN DAMAGE).

If you use ZnO paste (app 30% concentration of ZnO) then you will protect your skin better than with conventional sunscreens but you'll be extremely white and greasy :(

The best protection is avoidance of sunrays. :(

Thanks in advance.

Chiggy.

Sorry ignore the spelling mistake the subject.


Edited by Eva Victoria, 14 May 2008 - 02:58 PM.


#4 Chiggy

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 03:34 AM

Thanks both of you for answering all my questions.

It’s a shame all the good work Retin-A does is reversed, I would have thought it would have stayed, since the damage is repaired.

It’s also a shame Retin A and the sun do not mix well, since I love being out in the sun, I will stop the retin A now. I may try it again just before winter.

Thanks,

Chiggy.

#5 dehbleh

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 09:06 AM

Not all the beneficial changes brought on by Retin-A are reversed. This is a common myth.

Long-term Retin-A use (I'm talking years) will eventually correct damage in the underlying layers of the epidermis. This correction is there to stay. It is the upper layer of the epidermis that will return to its original state. Your upper layer of skin will appear thicker yet less plump. This happens as the advanced cell-proliferation starts to slow down upon ceasing Tretinoin.

If you're really looking to speed things up skin-health wise, I'd start looking at high-potency copper-peptide products in combination with Retin-A. The benefits of CP's (when used alone) is they do not make you sun-sensitive, in fact they are very powerful at protecting your skin against UV damage whilst stimulating collagen repair.

However, to make the most of them you will need some form of exfoliation which is why they are perfect when used with Retin-A.

#6 Eva Victoria

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 02:32 PM

Please read the documentation from the Mentor (Dr. Kligman) himself and the reversable effects of Tretinoin.


Not all the beneficial changes brought on by Retin-A are reversed. This is a common myth.

Long-term Retin-A use (I'm talking years) will eventually correct damage in the underlying layers of the epidermis. This correction is there to stay. It is the upper layer of the epidermis that will return to its original state. Your upper layer of skin will appear thicker yet less plump. This happens as the advanced cell-proliferation starts to slow down upon ceasing Tretinoin.

If you're really looking to speed things up skin-health wise, I'd start looking at high-potency copper-peptide products in combination with Retin-A. The benefits of CP's (when used alone) is they do not make you sun-sensitive, in fact they are very powerful at protecting your skin against UV damage whilst stimulating collagen repair.

However, to make the most of them you will need some form of exfoliation which is why they are perfect when used with Retin-A.

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#7 Chiggy

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 11:18 PM

Thanks again both, dehbleh is Juvess suitable for CP therapy as it contains copper peptides or are you talking about something stronger ?

Eva so there is no point at all of just winter use of Retin-A ?

Chiggy

#8 Eva Victoria

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 02:26 PM

I personally think Retin-A should be used every day all year around for the rest of your life.


Together with in the order of importance:

1) Avoiding/minimizing sunexposure
2) Wearing protective clothing + Sunglasses
3) Sunscreen


Thanks again both, dehbleh is Juvess suitable for CP therapy as it contains copper peptides or are you talking about something stronger ?

Eva so there is no point at all of just winter use of Retin-A ?

Chiggy



#9 dehbleh

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 03:03 PM

Thanks again both, dehbleh is Juvess suitable for CP therapy as it contains copper peptides or are you talking about something stronger ?

Eva so there is no point at all of just winter use of Retin-A ?

Chiggy


I'm not sure about Juvess. All I know is if it's not green then I have doubts as to whether it's concentrated enough. If you're asking what's worked for me, then I would say Skin Biology products. The website is a bit funny but the products are solid and they are formulated by the man who first discovered copper peptides.

Eva, seasoned users of Retin-A who stop treatment will still retain the underlying structural changes made to their skin whilst undergoing Tretinoin therapy. I highly doubt that collagen magically destroys itself and eventually atrophies to the point where the benefits are totally diminished. If the individual began to sunbathe then I can see some benefits would quickly diminish.

But then again, I'm going off my own personal experience of cycling Retin-A on and off for the past 2 years. The situation could be different for those much older than I.

#10 Chiggy

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Posted 18 May 2008 - 12:42 AM

Thanks for both of your advice,

Giving up the Sun for me is like giving up smoking or something else addictive, it will be very difficult.

I will take advice from both of you and start this coming winter, this summer is no good as it's my wedding, and we are having it by the sea in a hot country, everyone will be on the beach enjoying the sun, which would make things very difficult if I was still on Retin A. Even driving with sun block 50+ on I can feel the sting from the sun on my skin while I was using Retin A.

dehbleh thanks I will check out that company Skin Biology.

One last question both :

Is there any way to prevent the skin peeling and redness I get from Retin A use, I applied it after I washed and let my skin drie and limited to 1 inch creme from the tube, I did not put too much on. My skin is very dry now and I find it hard to get enough moisture into the skin even after stopping in the last 3 days.


Chiggy.

Edited by Chiggy, 18 May 2008 - 12:44 AM.


#11 donjoe

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Posted 18 May 2008 - 09:22 AM

Please read the documentation from the Mentor (Dr. Kligman) himself and the reversable effects of Tretinoin.

Not all the beneficial changes brought on by Retin-A are reversed. This is a common myth.

What you're quoting is just a patent application, not a peer-reviewed scientific publication. I think the good doctor was a bit careless in his wording there. He himself said that 6 months of regular use can repair the deep damage which we know takes many years to accumulate. It stands to reason that after such reparation if you stop using Retin-A you'd have to be exposed to the sun for almost the same number of years as before in order to get all the previous damage back. Fredrik's description goes by the same logic:

No. There´s no problem when stopping a retinoid. The effects will wane off gradually, but the skin repair you´ve already made is there to stay until you start aging at pre-retinoid speed again. So your face won´t turn to stone, but your new fresh face will simply start to age again. So using a retinoid regularly will both treat and prevent aging skin.

(emphasis mine)

Is there any way to prevent the skin peeling and redness I get from Retin A use

Sure:
- use a moisturizing cream in the morning;
- in the evening, wait at least 20 minutes after washing and drying your skin before you apply the Retin-A (this reduces absorption);
- apply less Retin-A per square inch;
- reduce the frequency of applications.


- After all, Number One, we're only mortal.
- Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever.

Edited by donjoe, 18 May 2008 - 09:27 AM.


#12 dehbleh

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 11:11 AM

- use a moisturizing cream in the morning;
- in the evening, wait at least 20 minutes after washing and drying your skin before you apply the Retin-A (this reduces absorption);
- apply less Retin-A per square inch;
- reduce the frequency of applications.


Not to mention:

- Applying Copper Peptides (strong anti-inflammatory, speeds up skin repair and stimulates collagen.. not bad huh? ;o)
I keep raving on about them but despite my rants, they quite literally stopped me from having to live a life of ugliness. My face was sinking into itself before I started treatment. If I had taken before & after shots you would get an idea but it was a point in my life where I was no doubt very self-conscious and camera shy. I was also at a point of desperation as I had tried everything with little success (retin-a, EGF, KGF, vitamin c).

It turned out copper peptides were the catalyst that made my stupid face repair itself. I stand by them to this day.

#13 Eva Victoria

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 02:22 PM

I would like to add just one thing here:

It is wonderful to believe that aging can be stopped or delayed indefinitely by some miracel product(s)!

I would be the happiest person in the world if it happenned, believe me!!!

But the sad truth is that while Retin-A (and a well-formulated sunscreen) is the closest we can get to miracels today, even these agents won't stop your skin from aging :( Even if we only consider extrinsic aging (caused by environmental factors) :(
It is nice to believe that we don't have to age if we do the "right" thing.

But in reality even the best sunscreen won't be able to protect your skin 100% from UVR; nor will Tretinoin be able to repair all damage either.

Basically we all will age but the speed of aging can be slowed down.

So the question remains: How slow do you want it to be?



Please read the documentation from the Mentor (Dr. Kligman) himself and the reversable effects of Tretinoin.

Not all the beneficial changes brought on by Retin-A are reversed. This is a common myth.

What you're quoting is just a patent application, not a peer-reviewed scientific publication. I think the good doctor was a bit careless in his wording there. He himself said that 6 months of regular use can repair the deep damage which we know takes many years to accumulate. It stands to reason that after such reparation if you stop using Retin-A you'd have to be exposed to the sun for almost the same number of years as before in order to get all the previous damage back. Fredrik's description goes by the same logic:

No. There´s no problem when stopping a retinoid. The effects will wane off gradually, but the skin repair you´ve already made is there to stay until you start aging at pre-retinoid speed again. So your face won´t turn to stone, but your new fresh face will simply start to age again. So using a retinoid regularly will both treat and prevent aging skin.

(emphasis mine)

Is there any way to prevent the skin peeling and redness I get from Retin A use

Sure:
- use a moisturizing cream in the morning;
- in the evening, wait at least 20 minutes after washing and drying your skin before you apply the Retin-A (this reduces absorption);
- apply less Retin-A per square inch;
- reduce the frequency of applications.

- After all, Number One, we're only mortal.
- Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever.



#14 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 02:34 PM

It turned out copper peptides were the catalyst that made my stupid face repair itself. I stand by them to this day.


What CP product do you use?

#15 donjoe

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 05:06 AM

Take my advice on this... it doesn't matter how much sunscreen or zinc you use, Sun + Retin-A do not mix!!!!!!

I'd love it if someone could be more specific on this: what is it exactly that happens or has a higher risk of happening? Erythema? DNA damage? And how much faster than for un-treated skin? Say, 15 times? As in "Sunscreen +15 SPF, Retin-A -15 SPF = 0 SPF", so a Tretinoin user with a 15 SPF sunscreen is basically out there naked?

I would've guessed that you're not at any higher risk than you would be at any other time when you're completely un-tanned (because the Tretinoin simply inhibits melanin production, right?), but if you know anything specific about any additional sensitizing effect, it would be good to have a description of it; to really know what we're up against here.


- After all, Number One, we're only mortal.
- Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever.


#16 zoolander

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 06:43 AM

Consider using Skinceutical CE ferulic which has been shown to be photoprotective (SPF8+ I think)

Photodermatol Photoimmunol Photomed. 2008 Apr;24(2):61-6.Click here to read Links
Topical isoflavones provide effective photoprotection to skin.
Lin JY, Tournas JA, Burch JA, Monteiro-Riviere NA, Zielinski J.

Chang Gung Memorial Hospital, Chang Gung University College of Medicine, Taipei, Taiwan. lindajylin@adm.cgmh.org.tw

BACKGROUND/PURPOSE: Isoflavones, one main group of phytoestrogens, have antioxidative and photoprotective effects in cellular and mouse studies. The aim of this study is to obtain a more comprehensive understanding of the isoflavone-mediated photoprotection with the pig skin model, a more human-resembling model. METHODS: The pig skin was treated with five well-known isoflavone compounds (genistein, equol, daidzein, biochanin A, and formononetin) and one antioxidant combination solution of 15% vitamin C and 1% vitamin E and 0.5% ferulic acid (CEF) daily for 4 days. Skin was irradiated with solar-simulated UV irradiation, 1 to 5 minimal erythema dose (MED) at 1-MED intervals. Evaluation was carried out 24 h later by colorimeter-measured erythema and sunburn cell numbers. RESULTS: Topical application of 0.5% solutions of three individual phytoestrogens - genistein, daidzein, biochanin A - are better than similar solutions of equol or formononetin in protecting pig skin from solar-simulated ultraviolet (SSUV)-induced photodamage, as measured by sunburn cell formation and/or erythema. However, the protection was less than that provided by a topical combination antioxidant standard containing 15% L-ascorbic acid, 1%alpha-tocopherol, and 0.5% ferulic acid. CONCLUSION: Isoflavones provide effective photoprotection and are good candidate ingredients for protection against ultraviolet (UV) photodamage.


the product used in the above study was skinceuticals CE Ferulic

Additionally, consider supplementing with Heliocare. Heliocare contains am extract from fern called Polypodium Leucotomos. Polypodium Leucotomos Extract has also been shown to be photoprotective

Drugs Today (Barc). 2007 Jul;43(7):475-85.Click here to read Links
Polypodium leucotomos extract: a nutraceutical with photoprotective properties.
Gonzalez S, Alonso-Lebrero JL, Del Rio R, Jaen P.

Dermatology Service, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, New York, NY 10022, USA. gonzals6@mskcc.org

Ultraviolet (UV) irradiation causes multifaceted damage to the skin and adjacent tissue layers, and is one of the leading causes of premature skin aging, immunosuppression and carcinogenesis. Photoprotection can be achieved by the use of sunscreens and also by systemically administered compounds that fight the deleterious biological effects of UV exposure, or preferably both. In this review, we summarize the current knowledge on the tissue, cellular and molecular mechanisms underlying the photoprotective effect of Polypodium leucotomos fern extract. P. leucotomos blocked the deleterious effect of UV irradiation both in vivo and in vitro. The molecular basis of photoprotection relies on its ability to inhibit free radical generation, prevent photodecomposition of both endogenous photoprotective molecules and DNA, and prevent UV-induced cell death. Its complete loss of toxicity combined with its multifactor protection makes it a valuable tool not only for direct photoprotection, but also as an efficacious adjuvant to phototherapy of various skin diseases.


Use both of the above whilst applying (and reapplying) a sunscreen that blocks out UVA&B then you'll be less likely to burn compared to someone who isn't using the above.

best solution though is to stay out of the sun as much as possible. Wear a broad rimmed hat and try to cover up with clothing that is sun protective.

#17 Chiggy

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 03:58 AM

Thanks to all of you for your great advice. I am always surprised by the members of this forum, discussions here are certainly the most interesting and informative on the internet.

Chiggy.

#18 dehbleh

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 08:56 AM

What CP product do you use?


SkinBiology is the only brand I have used. There are probably other brands that do a similar job but I haven't been game enough to change because it works and is priced very well considering how effective it is.

It is my understanding that Retin-A causes photosensitivity because it thins the out layer of the epidermis (whilst increasing collagen production beneath the surface of the skin).

#19 donjoe

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 04:56 AM

It is my understanding that Retin-A causes photosensitivity because it thins the out layer of the epidermis (whilst increasing collagen production beneath the surface of the skin).

That's strange. I thought it thickens the skin by increasing cell turnover. Dr. Klingman himself wrote that in older people it can even double skin thickness. So which is it? Maybe it thickens the endodermis & mezodermis and thins the epidermis?...


- After all, Number One, we're only mortal.
- Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever.


#20 Eva Victoria

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 02:01 PM

UVR makes the Epidermis thicker (natural skin protection against UVR) and thins the Dermis by destroying Collagen fibers.

Tretinoin reverses these effects:
Thiner/ more like young Epidermis
Thicker Dermis (because it promotes Collaggen production).

Total effect: more youthful skin that behaves like young skin: totally it is thicker and more sensitive.

It is my understanding that Retin-A causes photosensitivity because it thins the out layer of the epidermis (whilst increasing collagen production beneath the surface of the skin).

That's strange. I thought it thickens the skin by increasing cell turnover. Dr. Klingman himself wrote that in older people it can even double skin thickness. So which is it? Maybe it thickens the endodermis & mezodermis and thins the epidermis?...

- After all, Number One, we're only mortal.
- Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever.



#21 donjoe

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 05:02 PM

Total effect: more youthful skin that behaves like young skin: totally it is thicker and more sensitive.

Ah, OK, but that shouldn't be such a catastrophe. I mean kids go out into the sun all the time and they don't die from it. :p Any top-quality sunscreen should be able to protect you adequately during Tretinoin use if that's all the latter does - make your skin react more like young skin. But if there's some other problematic effect of Tretinoin that makes it really dangerous for you to go out (more dangerous that it ever is for a child), sure, that would be something to be wary of.


- After all, Number One, we're only mortal.
- Speak for yourself, sir. I plan to live forever.


#22 Chiggy

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 02:49 AM

Dehbleh,

What cp product from Skin Biology have you had success with ?

I took a look at their site and they have lots of different products.

Thanks,

Chiggy.

#23 dehbleh

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 02:18 PM

Dehbleh,

What cp product from Skin Biology have you had success with ?

I took a look at their site and they have lots of different products.

Thanks,

Chiggy.


I use SuperCop. The stuff is quite strong, so take it easy. Also you may wish to read the website, it's quite different from all the other topicals out there (read up on the transient side effect named the "uglies")




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