22 replies to this topic

[VictorBjoerk]

I'm wondering about your experiences about taking ascorbic acid to increase collagen production in the skin.Does it really have a "rejuvenating" effect on appearances in humans?,What results have you experienced?How large doses are required?Should it be taken as a supplement orally or dermally?Any studies??.....What are your opinions?

Fredrik and Eva Victoria seems to know just about everything about staying young externally so I'm hoping for answers...

[VictorBjoerk]

I've noticed unscientifically that the skin can get smoother after consuming a lot of oranges.Could it be a result of Vitamin C?

[Fredrik]

I'm wondering about your experiences about taking ascorbic acid to increase collagen production in the skin.Does it really have a "rejuvenating" effect on appearances in humans?,What results have you experienced?How large doses are required?Should it be taken as a supplement orally or dermally?Any studies??.....What are your opinions?

Fredrik and Eva Victoria seems to know just about everything about staying young externally so I'm hoping for answers...

I´ve seen no studies on oral supplementation of vitamin C and increased collagen production, only increased protection against UV-damage at 2000 milligram/day with 1000 IU of vitamin E (don´t take that amount of vitamin E). Oral vitamin C on its own offered NO protection in that study.

A recent study in American Journal of Clinical nutrition looked at intake of nutrients in relation to aged and dry skin. They found that higher intake of C was associated with less damaged skin and linoleic acid with less senile dryness. In total 4025 females between the ages of 40 and 74 were included in the study.

Their conclusion: Higher intakes of vitamin C and linoleic acid and lower intakes of fats and carbohydrates are associated with better skin-aging appearance.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

With topical application of vitamin C you can achieve a greater concentration in skin than with oral intake. A topical 5-15% solution with a pH less than 3.5 have been proven to increase collagen 1 and III. You can find this amount in several topicals like Skinceuticals (and some other Loreal brands like La Roche Posay, Biomedic, Kiehls and Lancome), IS clinical and Obagi.

OVERVIEW of some topical C in vivo and in vitro studies
http://www.skinandag...om/article/5395

Edited by fredrik, 01 June 2008 - 01:04 AM.

[VictorBjoerk]

http://www.blackwell....1987.tb23798.x

Could anyone access this?

[Ben]

That'd be a little bit illegal :(

[Eva Victoria]

Vit.C applied topically in a high enough concentration (max 5% in cosmetics; 10-25% RX) does have a boosting effect on collagen fibres in the skin.
Since its ph-level is low (acid) it also exfoliates the upperpart of the Epidermis giving your skin a nicer more even surface.
It lightens pigmentspots (5% conc.) and can dramatically lighten dark pigmentation at higher concentrations.

Protects against UVB.
Unstable and oxidizes quickly unless it is incorporated with VitE (and Ferulic acid).
It'll increase the natural Vit C level of the skin in only 3 days. Natural VitC level of the skin is depleted very easily by UVR.
So it is important to apply a stable form of VitC every day (once should be enough).

I'm wondering about your experiences about taking ascorbic acid to increase collagen production in the skin.Does it really have a "rejuvenating" effect on appearances in humans?,What results have you experienced?How large doses are required?Should it be taken as a supplement orally or dermally?Any studies??.....What are your opinions?

Fredrik and Eva Victoria seems to know just about everything about staying young externally so I'm hoping for answers...

[Fredrik]

Vit.C applied topically in a high enough concentration (max 5% in cosmetics; 10-25% RX) does have a boosting effect on collagen fibres in the skin.

What do you mean with "max 5% in cosmetics; 10-25% RX"? Topical vitamin C is not a prescription drug, there are no Rx topical vitamin C drugs, just regular cosmetics. And there is no maximum limit of 5%. There are many vitamin C cosmetics with a concentration higher than 5%. You can buy these online or from a Medspa:

Skinceuticals 5, 10, 15 and 20%

Obagi 5, 10, 15 and 20%

Cellex-C 5, 10 and 17.5 %

Skinmedica 15%

Kiehls 10.5%

Biomedic 5 and 10.5%

etc.

Edited by Fredrik, 07 June 2008 - 11:00 PM.

[Eva Victoria]

Indeed. Though all these brands are designed to be bought at the office of a dermatologist.

And unfortunately VitaminC is regulated as drugs (RX) when it is in higher concentration than 5%.

As long as you buy it at a dermatologist (like brands: Obagi, CellexC etc) you can always buy higher concentrations than 5%.

Remember both Colipa`s and FDA`s definition of drugs: When it changes the structure or function of the skin it has to be classified as drugs. And VitaminC does change the structure of the skin (crosses the Basal Cell layer and produces more collagen). Cosmetics can only work in the Epidermis by definition.

If in doubt, please visit the site of the FDA and the EUcommission Health-cosmetics directory. Please see attachment for links.

Vit.C applied topically in a high enough concentration (max 5% in cosmetics; 10-25% RX) does have a boosting effect on collagen fibres in the skin.

What do you mean with "max 5% in cosmetics; 10-25% RX"? Topical vitamin C is not a prescription drug, there are no Rx topical vitamin C drugs, just regular cosmetics. And there is no maximum limit of 5%. There are many vitamin C cosmetics with a concentration higher than 5%. You can buy these online or from a Medspa:

Skinceuticals 5, 10, 15 and 20%

Obagi 5, 10, 15 and 20%

Cellex-C 5, 10 and 17.5 %

Skinmedica 15%

Kiehls 10.5%

Biomedic 5 and 10.5%

etc.

Attached Files

•  Cosmetics_vs._Drugs_EU_AU_US.doc.pdf   72.61KB   30 downloads

Edited by Eva Victoria, 08 June 2008 - 05:56 PM.

[Fredrik]

Indeed. Though all these brands are designed to be bought at the office of a dermatologist.

And unfortunately VitaminC is regulated as drugs (RX) when it is in higher concentration than 5%.

As long as you buy it at a dermatologist (like brands: Obagi, CellexC etc) you can always buy higher concentrations than 5%.

Remember both Colipa`s and FDA`s definition of drugs: When it changes the structure or function of the skin it has to be classified as drugs. And VitaminC does change the structure of the skin (crosses the Basal Cell layer and produces more collagen). Cosmetics can only work in the Epidermis by definition.

If in doubt, please visit the site of the FDA and the EUcommission Health-cosmetics directory. Please see attachment for links.

Are you making these things up as you go along? Please tell me the name of the FDA approved topical vitamin C drug that can only be prescribed by doctors. So far the FDA has only approved two topical drugs to treat the symtoms of aging skin: tretinoin and tazarotene. Botox is an injectable drug.

Obagi, Cellex-c and Biomedic are cosmetics sold at derm offices, they´re not prescribed. Because they´re not drugs, neither OTC or dispensed. The FDA doesn´t differentiate between a topical C product and a moisturizer from Olay or Estee Lauder. They´re all considered cosmetics and they are only prohibited if they´re harmful to the american public.

The FDAs concern regarding cosmetics is safety only, not efficacy. They don´t care that topical C increase collagen as long as the company don´t make drug like claims about the product or the consumers don´t get hurt.

The FDA regards topical vitamin C products as moisturizers intended to "beautify". No company to my knowledge has turned in a new drug application for a topical C formulation, and none has certainly been approved. As long as companies do not claim a drug like effect of topical C products the FDA will not intervene.

The FDA does not recognize the term "cosmeceutical" that is referred to in your document. Did you write that document yourself or is it from a cosmetic company? Nowhere in it do I see anything about topical vitamin C being a Rx drug. That is your own conclusion, which you have provided no evidence to support.

"While the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act does not recognize the term "cosmeceutical," the cosmetic industry uses this word to refer to cosmetic products that have medicinal or drug-like benefits."
http://www.cfsan.fda...ms/cos-217.html

The FDA recognizes that a product can sometime be both a cosmetic and a drug; dandruff medications in the form of a schampoo for example...or OTC benzoyl peroxide lotions to treat acne. They fit both descriptions.
http://www.cfsan.fda...s/cos-lab4.html

"While drugs are subject to a review and approval process by FDA, cosmetics are not approved by FDA prior to sale. If a product has drug properties, it must be approved as a drug."
http://www.cfsan.fda...ms/cos-217.html

The FDAs definition of a cosmetic is:

"articles intended to be rubbed, poured, sprinkled, or sprayed on, introduced into, or otherwise applied to the human body...for cleansing, beautifying, promoting attractiveness, or altering the appearance" [FD&C Act, sec. 201(i)]. Among the products included in this definition are skin moisturizers, perfumes, lipsticks, fingernail polishes, eye and facial makeup preparations, shampoos, permanent waves, hair colors, toothpastes, and deodorants, as well as any material intended for use as a component of a cosmetic product."

Edited by Fredrik, 08 June 2008 - 07:49 PM.

[Matt]

Nothing to do with Vitamin C... but just a few weeks ago there was a study showing that lycopene significantly increases collagen synthesis in skin.

[Eva Victoria]

I wrote the Pdf doc.
I don't make things up.
The FDA indeed do not recognize the term Cosmeticuticals (I never said they did either).

Obagi, CellexC, MDForte etc are sold only at derm. offices because of the high concentration of the actives.
Vitamin C is classified as an active ingredient.

Post you the directives of the FDA and the EU concerning the concentration of VitC.

http://ec.europa.eu/...lidated_dir.htm



But I have aquestion for you, Fredrik:
Why do you think it is that everybody in this business are aware of the fact that min 10% concentration of Vit.C is needed to have any effect on aging skin hence no cosmetic company manufactures anything higher than 5% concentration of Vit C?
(Helena Rubistein: 5%, La Roche Posay 5% -even though sold at a pharmacy; Biomedic (La Roche Posay's derm. brand: 10-25% - sold at derm. offices; just to name a few.)

Indeed. Though all these brands are designed to be bought at the office of a dermatologist.

And unfortunately VitaminC is regulated as drugs (RX) when it is in higher concentration than 5%.

As long as you buy it at a dermatologist (like brands: Obagi, CellexC etc) you can always buy higher concentrations than 5%.

Remember both Colipa`s and FDA`s definition of drugs: When it changes the structure or function of the skin it has to be classified as drugs. And VitaminC does change the structure of the skin (crosses the Basal Cell layer and produces more collagen). Cosmetics can only work in the Epidermis by definition.

If in doubt, please visit the site of the FDA and the EUcommission Health-cosmetics directory. Please see attachment for links.

Are you making these things up as you go along? Please tell me the name of the FDA approved topical vitamin C drug that can only be prescribed by doctors. So far the FDA has only approved two topical drugs to treat the symtoms of aging skin: tretinoin and tazarotene. Botox is an injectable drug.

Obagi, Cellex-c and Biomedic are cosmetics sold at derm offices, they´re not prescribed. Because they´re not drugs, neither OTC or dispensed. The FDA doesn´t differentiate between a topical C product and a moisturizer from Olay or Estee Lauder. They´re all considered cosmetics and they are only prohibited if they´re harmful to the american public.

The FDAs concern regarding cosmetics is safety only, not efficacy. They don´t care that topical C increase collagen as long as the company don´t make drug like claims about the product or the consumers don´t get hurt.

The FDA regards topical vitamin C products as moisturizers intended to "beautify". No company to my knowledge has turned in a new drug application for a topical C formulation, and none has certainly been approved. As long as companies do not claim a drug like effect of topical C products the FDA will not intervene.

The FDA does not recognize the term "cosmeceutical" that is referred to in your document. Did you write that document yourself or is it from a cosmetic company? Nowhere in it do I see anything about topical vitamin C being a Rx drug. That is your own conclusion, which you have provided no evidence to support.

"While the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act does not recognize the term "cosmeceutical," the cosmetic industry uses this word to refer to cosmetic products that have medicinal or drug-like benefits."
http://www.cfsan.fda...ms/cos-217.html

The FDA recognizes that a product can sometime be both a cosmetic and a drug; dandruff medications in the form of a schampoo for example...or OTC benzoyl peroxide lotions to treat acne. They fit both descriptions.
http://www.cfsan.fda...s/cos-lab4.html

"While drugs are subject to a review and approval process by FDA, cosmetics are not approved by FDA prior to sale. If a product has drug properties, it must be approved as a drug."
http://www.cfsan.fda...ms/cos-217.html

The FDAs definition of a cosmetic is:

"articles intended to be rubbed, poured, sprinkled, or sprayed on, introduced into, or otherwise applied to the human body...for cleansing, beautifying, promoting attractiveness, or altering the appearance" [FD&C Act, sec. 201(i)]. Among the products included in this definition are skin moisturizers, perfumes, lipsticks, fingernail polishes, eye and facial makeup preparations, shampoos, permanent waves, hair colors, toothpastes, and deodorants, as well as any material intended for use as a component of a cosmetic product."

Edited by Eva Victoria, 09 June 2008 - 06:16 PM.

[Eva Victoria]

Post my working regulations from suppliers since I don't have time to find you the regulatives. Hope you'll be satisfied (these regulations are valid for cosmetics) See use level (-5%)
Please see attachment for further application of Stay-C 50 (SAP: Sodium ascorbyl acid, INCI name: ascorbic acid)


Stay-C® 50 General Information Trade Stay-C Grade Stay-C® 50 Producer DSM Nutritional Products Chemical Name
CAS Number


Use Level 0.5 to 5.0%

Active Ingredient - antiacne/ seboregulator
- anti-ageing
- anticaries
- anti-dental plaque
- antiinflammatory/ antiphlogistic
- antioxidant/ antipollution
- antiperspirant/deo active
- anti-wrinkles
- lightening/ whitening
- firming/ botox-like
Origin/Nature - vitamins >> vitamin c (ascorbic acid)
End Application - skin care (facial care, facial cleansing, body care, baby care) >> facial care >> anti-ageing preparations
- skin care (facial care, facial cleansing, body care, baby care) >> facial care >> anti-acne products
- toiletries (shower & bath, oral care, hand washing, antiperspirants, depilatory products, shaving, foot care) >> oral care
- toiletries (shower & bath, oral care, hand washing, antiperspirants, depilatory products, shaving, foot care) >> antiperspirants & deodorants
- hair care (shampoos, conditioners & styling)
- sun care (sun protection, after-sun & self-tanning) >> sun protection
Comments Vitamin C derivative, anti-oxidant, anti-acne and anti-caries. Shows deodrant activity. Used in skin, hair and oral care. Quantitative Properties

http://www.specialch...p;srchid=146824

Indeed. Though all these brands are designed to be bought at the office of a dermatologist.

And unfortunately VitaminC is regulated as drugs (RX) when it is in higher concentration than 5%.

As long as you buy it at a dermatologist (like brands: Obagi, CellexC etc) you can always buy higher concentrations than 5%.

Remember both Colipa`s and FDA`s definition of drugs: When it changes the structure or function of the skin it has to be classified as drugs. And VitaminC does change the structure of the skin (crosses the Basal Cell layer and produces more collagen). Cosmetics can only work in the Epidermis by definition.

If in doubt, please visit the site of the FDA and the EUcommission Health-cosmetics directory. Please see attachment for links.

Are you making these things up as you go along? Please tell me the name of the FDA approved topical vitamin C drug that can only be prescribed by doctors. So far the FDA has only approved two topical drugs to treat the symtoms of aging skin: tretinoin and tazarotene. Botox is an injectable drug.

Obagi, Cellex-c and Biomedic are cosmetics sold at derm offices, they´re not prescribed. Because they´re not drugs, neither OTC or dispensed. The FDA doesn´t differentiate between a topical C product and a moisturizer from Olay or Estee Lauder. They´re all considered cosmetics and they are only prohibited if they´re harmful to the american public.

The FDAs concern regarding cosmetics is safety only, not efficacy. They don´t care that topical C increase collagen as long as the company don´t make drug like claims about the product or the consumers don´t get hurt.

The FDA regards topical vitamin C products as moisturizers intended to "beautify". No company to my knowledge has turned in a new drug application for a topical C formulation, and none has certainly been approved. As long as companies do not claim a drug like effect of topical C products the FDA will not intervene.

The FDA does not recognize the term "cosmeceutical" that is referred to in your document. Did you write that document yourself or is it from a cosmetic company? Nowhere in it do I see anything about topical vitamin C being a Rx drug. That is your own conclusion, which you have provided no evidence to support.

"While the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act does not recognize the term "cosmeceutical," the cosmetic industry uses this word to refer to cosmetic products that have medicinal or drug-like benefits."
http://www.cfsan.fda...ms/cos-217.html

The FDA recognizes that a product can sometime be both a cosmetic and a drug; dandruff medications in the form of a schampoo for example...or OTC benzoyl peroxide lotions to treat acne. They fit both descriptions.
http://www.cfsan.fda...s/cos-lab4.html

"While drugs are subject to a review and approval process by FDA, cosmetics are not approved by FDA prior to sale. If a product has drug properties, it must be approved as a drug."
http://www.cfsan.fda...ms/cos-217.html

The FDAs definition of a cosmetic is:

"articles intended to be rubbed, poured, sprinkled, or sprayed on, introduced into, or otherwise applied to the human body...for cleansing, beautifying, promoting attractiveness, or altering the appearance" [FD&C Act, sec. 201(i)]. Among the products included in this definition are skin moisturizers, perfumes, lipsticks, fingernail polishes, eye and facial makeup preparations, shampoos, permanent waves, hair colors, toothpastes, and deodorants, as well as any material intended for use as a component of a cosmetic product."

Attached Files

•  Sodium_Ascorbyl_Phosphate.pdf   1MB   47 downloads

Edited by Eva Victoria, 09 June 2008 - 07:00 PM.

[Fredrik]

Post my working regulations from suppliers since I don't have time to find you the regulatives. don't have time to find you the regulatives. Hope you'll be satisfied (these regulations are valid for cosmetics) See use level (-5%)
Please see attachment for further application of Stay-C 50 (SAP: Sodium ascorbyl acid, INCI name: ascorbic acid)

No Eva, sorry to say, but I´m not satisfied at all. Your posts on this subject and other subjects are a mix of some fact, a bit of pure fiction and a hefty dose of speculation and misunderstanding. I guess I´m going to get blasted on this board for going Dr Phil on you and telling you like (I really think) it is. I think you can´t stand being wrong and instead of just admitting it you say that you "don´t have the time to find the regulations". Well, if you have time to keep writing posts like these with no base in reality about FDA regulations and Rx vitamin C drugs that don´t exist, then you should also have the time to check your facts before you try to educate others.

I´m now looking at your last post and I see a regular cosmetic ingredient fact sheet from a manufacturer of a stable form of vitamin C. The company DSM Nutritional Products is just giving their customers the recommended % of their STAY-C 50 in the final product. All cosmetic ingredient fact sheets do that.

This has nothing to do with any FDA regulations.The FDA doesn´t have any 5% vitamin C limit with higher % as Rx only, as you´ve speculated and repeatedly stated as fact, it´s the Loreal companies themselves that chose to sell higher strength only from a doctors office. And the FDA haven´t approved any prescription topical C product as you´ve claimed (you still haven´t provided me the name of that supposed Rx topical C drug).


All these products have a higher than 5% concentration of C and are freely available online without talking to any doctors, despite your claims to the contrary:

SKINMEDICA 15% vitamin C complex

http://www.skinstore...amp;prodID=1810


OBAGI Professional C serum 10, 15 and 20%

http://www.skinstore...amp;prodID=4906


AVON ANEW ALTERNATIVE Clearly C 10% Vitamin C Serum

http://www.avon.com/...in-c-serum.html

There are many more online but this proves my point.

I wish you could do your research before you post because people on this board have faith in what your writing. And I understand that they do, because your cocksure in your presentation (and so am I), even when you don´t know what your talking about and really should be researching and asking yourself questions instead. By posting speculations and quick conclusions without checking out the facts I think you´re making it harder for Imminst-members to discuss the science of beauty.

I´m no damn expert but I´m no cosmetic salesperson either. I´ve learned to sort through information and be critical of the source material when I studied journalism. And I learned to read scientific journals when I studied clinical nutrition to become a dietitian. I do my research before I post, and when I speculate, or if I think there is only weak evidence, I tell people just that. I have a terrible habit of posting on the top of my head, from memory and not posting links to the source material. But I don´t post things as a fact when they´re really speculation on my side.

But I have aquestion for you, Fredrik:
Why do you think it is that everybody in this business are aware of the fact that min 10% concentration of Vit.C is needed to have any effect on aging skin hence no cosmetic company manufactures anything higher than 5% concentration of Vit C?
(Helena Rubistein: 5%, La Roche Posay 5% -even though sold at a pharmacy; Biomedic (La Roche Posay's derm. brand: 10-25% - sold at derm. offices; just to name a few.)

Your faulty conclusions come from reading Loreals marketing material and policies, nothing else. I don´t believe you´ve even read the FDA regulations concerning cosmetics. All the companies you´re mentioning is owned and manufactured by Loreal (Rubinstein, La Roche Posay, Biomedic). Loreal is using 5% in their high end store brands, because that dose is a good balance between efficacy and not being too irritating.

What you don´t seem to know is that Helena Rubinstein launched three cute little orange ampoule's with a concentration of 5, 10 and 15% in the early 90s. You mixed the powder with a solution yourself to keep it fresh. That product is now since long discontinued. The 10 and 15% dose probably irritated some skintypes.

Now Loreal wanted to get in to the business of lucrative "MD" brands that are sold in doctors offices (cosmetics seems more trustworthy when sold there I guess) so they bought Biomedic first and later Skinceuticals. Both brands have higher than 5% concentration of vitamin C and they´re sold through doctors. It´s just a marketing decision by Loreal. I believe that they feel more comfortable selling a potentially irritating acid through a doctor that can explain these side effects than in a store or online.

But, the Loreal brand Kiehls also have a 10.5% C product for sale in their stores, no doctor near to cash the checks:

Loreals KIEHLS Powerful strength line reducing concentrate 10.5%

http://www.kiehls.co...amp;prdcode=595

Edited by Fredrik, 10 June 2008 - 04:30 AM.

[sdxl]

I have to agree with Fredrik, except for the way he writes L'Oréal. In what pharmacopeia is topical ascorbic acid or any other form of vitamin C a drug? As far as I know in none. Show me otherwise.

[Ben]

<br />Nothing to do with Vitamin C... but just a few weeks ago there was a study showing that lycopene significantly increases collagen synthesis in skin.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Could you post a link to it?

[Eva Victoria]

It is nothing to do with being wrong.

I really do not have much time nowadays. And I think you are right I should be doing something else with my little time than get into stupid arguments with you.

I formulate products (sold at cliniques with a derm.). I might be wrong but in my formulating instructions it does say max 5% concentration of Ascorbic Acid for cosmetics, higher for derm. (It is not an Rx drug but you need to be a derm to be able to sell them at higher conc.
BTW you can easily buy Retin-A on internet without a prescr. even though it is an Rx drug.
Vit. E is also regulated as you might know: max 1% OTC
So are all sunscreen agent even in the EU where these chemicals are regulated as cosmetic ingredients.

All these actually can be seen at the Cosmetics regulations of the EU (see link above).

I am at Imminst because I did believe that I can help people and I do like helping others but obviously I am not much wanted so good luck Fredrik, keep up educating, informing people you are so much better than any of us here.
So good luck!

Post my working regulations from suppliers since I don't have time to find you the regulatives. don't have time to find you the regulatives. Hope you'll be satisfied (these regulations are valid for cosmetics) See use level (-5%)
Please see attachment for further application of Stay-C 50 (SAP: Sodium ascorbyl acid, INCI name: ascorbic acid)

No Eva, sorry to say, but I´m not satisfied at all. Your posts on this subject and other subjects are a mix of some fact, a bit of pure fiction and a hefty dose of speculation and misunderstanding. I guess I´m going to get blasted on this board for going Dr Phil on you and telling you like (I really think) it is. I think you can´t stand being wrong and instead of just admitting it you say that you "don´t have the time to find the regulations". Well, if you have time to keep writing posts like these with no base in reality about FDA regulations and Rx vitamin C drugs that don´t exist, then you should also have the time to check your facts before you try to educate others.

I´m now looking at your last post and I see a regular cosmetic ingredient fact sheet from a manufacturer of a stable form of vitamin C. The company DSM Nutritional Products is just giving their customers the recommended % of their STAY-C 50 in the final product. All cosmetic ingredient fact sheets do that.

This has nothing to do with any FDA regulations.The FDA doesn´t have any 5% vitamin C limit with higher % as Rx only, as you´ve speculated and repeatedly stated as fact, it´s the Loreal companies themselves that chose to sell higher strength only from a doctors office. And the FDA haven´t approved any prescription topical C product as you´ve claimed (you still haven´t provided me the name of that supposed Rx topical C drug).


All these products have a higher than 5% concentration of C and are freely available online without talking to any doctors, despite your claims to the contrary:

SKINMEDICA 15% vitamin C complex

http://www.skinstore...amp;prodID=1810


OBAGI Professional C serum 10, 15 and 20%

http://www.skinstore...amp;prodID=4906


AVON ANEW ALTERNATIVE Clearly C 10% Vitamin C Serum

http://www.avon.com/...in-c-serum.html

There are many more online but this proves my point.

I wish you could do your research before you post because people on this board have faith in what your writing. And I understand that they do, because your cocksure in your presentation (and so am I), even when you don´t know what your talking about and really should be researching and asking yourself questions instead. By posting speculations and quick conclusions without checking out the facts I think you´re making it harder for Imminst-members to discuss the science of beauty.

I´m no damn expert but I´m no cosmetic salesperson either. I´ve learned to sort through information and be critical of the source material when I studied journalism. And I learned to read scientific journals when I studied clinical nutrition to become a dietitian. I do my research before I post, and when I speculate, or if I think there is only weak evidence, I tell people just that. I have a terrible habit of posting on the top of my head, from memory and not posting links to the source material. But I don´t post things as a fact when they´re really speculation on my side.

But I have aquestion for you, Fredrik:
Why do you think it is that everybody in this business are aware of the fact that min 10% concentration of Vit.C is needed to have any effect on aging skin hence no cosmetic company manufactures anything higher than 5% concentration of Vit C?
(Helena Rubistein: 5%, La Roche Posay 5% -even though sold at a pharmacy; Biomedic (La Roche Posay's derm. brand: 10-25% - sold at derm. offices; just to name a few.)

Your faulty conclusions come from reading Loreals marketing material and policies, nothing else. I don´t believe you´ve even read the FDA regulations concerning cosmetics. All the companies you´re mentioning is owned and manufactured by Loreal (Rubinstein, La Roche Posay, Biomedic). Loreal is using 5% in their high end store brands, because that dose is a good balance between efficacy and not being too irritating.

What you don´t seem to know is that Helena Rubinstein launched three cute little orange ampoule's with a concentration of 5, 10 and 15% in the early 90s. You mixed the powder with a solution yourself to keep it fresh. That product is now since long discontinued. The 10 and 15% dose probably irritated some skintypes.

Now Loreal wanted to get in to the business of lucrative "MD" brands that are sold in doctors offices (cosmetics seems more trustworthy when sold there I guess) so they bought Biomedic first and later Skinceuticals. Both brands have higher than 5% concentration of vitamin C and they´re sold through doctors. It´s just a marketing decision by Loreal. I believe that they feel more comfortable selling a potentially irritating acid through a doctor that can explain these side effects than in a store or online.

But, the Loreal brand Kiehls also have a 10.5% C product for sale in their stores, no doctor near to cash the checks:

Loreals KIEHLS Powerful strength line reducing concentrate 10.5%

http://www.kiehls.co...amp;prdcode=595

Edited by Eva Victoria, 10 June 2008 - 08:03 PM.

[cillakat]

All of the brands you mentioned EV, are spa/store available brands and vitamin C in conc of >5% are available everywhere with no doc in sight. Mychelle has a 17% ascorbic serum available at the health food store. Cellex, MD Forte, Skinceuticals.....available everywhere.

"It is not an Rx drug but you need to be a derm to be able to sell them at higher conc. "

This is patently untrue. At least in the US.

All the best,

K

[cillakat]

"I'm wondering about your experiences about taking ascorbic acid to increase collagen production in the skin.Does it really have a "rejuvenating" effect on appearances in humans?,What results have you experienced?How large doses are required?Should it be taken as a supplement orally or dermally?Any studies"

the most effective topical for increasing collagen production in the skin won't be an antioxidant. it'll be an rx retinoid. ascorbic acid form of C is helpful for somethings but tretinoin is dramatically more so. eating a diet high in f/v has a significant impact on skin wrinkling as one ages, fredrick already has posted on that.

K

[Eva Victoria]

You are right.
Now that I checked it up it is indeed only regulated in Norway :( (Norway is not in the EU ).
Not even the EU has limitation on its use unless it is used as a preservative in cosmetics.

All of the brands you mentioned EV, are spa/store available brands and vitamin C in conc of >5% are available everywhere with no doc in sight. Mychelle has a 17% ascorbic serum available at the health food store. Cellex, MD Forte, Skinceuticals.....available everywhere.

"It is not an Rx drug but you need to be a derm to be able to sell them at higher conc. "

This is patently untrue. At least in the US.

All the best,

K

Attached Files

•  EU_2007_Cosmetic_directory.pdf   384.44KB   25 downloads

Edited by Eva Victoria, 15 June 2008 - 02:54 PM.

[Ben]

Norway is not in the eu? norway!

[Eva Victoria]

Nope :( Only in the EEC :(

Norway is not in the eu? norway!

[luminous]

FYI for whom the shoe fits...

Both smiley and frowny faces come off as rude and condescending when attempting to correct someone.

Also, if I've learned anything on this forum, it's that whenever posting something as fact, one had better include a link from at least one reputable source, preferably more, with references to supporting well-conducted independent studies. Many times, I've sort of "known" something but refrained from posting it unless I had the time and energy to find and include solid supporting evidence. The best posters here are especially careful to include clear, plain-English, solid evidence to back up everything they say, with no doublespeak thrown in.

[spacetime]

FYI for whom the shoe fits...

Both smiley and frowny faces come off as rude and condescending when attempting to correct someone.

Also, if I've learned anything on this forum, it's that whenever posting something as fact, one had better include a link from at least one reputable source, preferably more, with references to supporting well-conducted independent studies. Many times, I've sort of "known" something but refrained from posting it unless I had the time and energy to find and include solid supporting evidence. The best posters here are especially careful to include clear, plain-English, solid evidence to back up everything they say, with no doublespeak thrown in.

I agree with the need for references to substantiate claims. As for emoticons or doublespeak that can be affected by cultural customs. English is not the native language of a few here yet the communicate remarkably well and you forget everyone isn't a native speaker or abides by certain customs. I'd rather have people post whatever they feel and then if anyone has issues then they can call the person out.