37 replies to this topic

[zawy]

I think the primary question is: Does RESV improve muscle/fat ratio? You've exanded it to isolate effects under different conditions of weight change. It could be expanded even more to break it up into "weight change caused by food intake change, exercise same" and "weight change caused by exercise change, food same".

My guess is that RESV only helps increase exercise either by testosterone desire and/or respiration improvement. So this answer gives "yes" to the primary question, but it switches cause and effect around so that none of the 6 expanded questions applies: my guess is that RESV->EXER-> LBM rather than directly EXER + RESV = LBM.

But getting back to your 4 questions: can resveratrol improve LBM under increasing or decreasing BM conditions? My observation is that under the reduced 500 mg/day i was taking the past 3 months under stopped exercise, I LOST 4 pounds and gained ~1/2 inch of belly fat. But my strength did not decrease as much as i expected. Complicating factor: I stopped creatine too which could explain reduced weight, but not much decrease in strength.

As far as LBM is concerned, I think of RESV as another nutrient in the soil and exercise like sunshine.

RESV affects respiration, but getting the energy to come from fat rather than muscle is a more global effect more strongly determined by hormones, exercise, and types of food. For RESV to have a similar effect, its effects would have to back-propogate in the reverse direction from respiration -> krebs cycle -> hormones/fat/muscle.

Low carb means a higher protien diet which means your body thinks your are a hunter needing to be lean and mean rather than a farmer needing to be fat during winter.

[SearchHorizon]

I think the primary question is: Does RESV improve muscle/fat ratio?

I agree.

You've exanded it to isolate effects under different conditions of weight change. It could be expanded even more to break it up into "weight change caused by food intake change, exercise same" and "weight change caused by exercise change, food same".

Exercise is necessary for sending anabolic signal. Without it, there is no signal for the body to work with, whether or not one is taking resveratrol.

My guess is that RESV only helps increase exercise either by testosterone desire and/or respiration improvement. So this answer gives "yes" to the primary question, but it switches cause and effect around so that none of the 6 expanded questions applies: my guess is that RESV->EXER-> LBM rather than directly EXER + RESV = LBM.

Based on what I have read, resveratrol doesn't increase testosterone; it decreases it. This is consistent with my understanding of how one's body attempts to suppress reproduction during starvation conditions (conditions that trigger SIRT1). I was not talking about psychological effects at all. For example, if you go on a diet, testosterone level will fall.

But getting back to your 4 questions: can resveratrol improve LBM under increasing or decreasing BM conditions? My observation is that under the reduced 500 mg/day i was taking the past 3 months under stopped exercise, I LOST 4 pounds and gained ~1/2 inch of belly fat.

Without lifting, there is no reason for the body to gain muscle, whether one is taking resveratrol or not.

As far as LBM is concerned, I think of RESV as another nutrient in the soil and exercise like sunshine.

I would have to disagree on this one. Did you take a look at the abstract I posted above, on how SIRT1 activation leads to PPAR-gamma expression? RESV has a specific action of triggering SIRT1, and it is not like "another" nutrient in the soil.

RESV affects respiration, but getting the energy to come from fat rather than muscle is a more global effect more strongly determined by hormones, exercise, and types of food.

RESV affects more than respiration. RESV also affects specific pathways that increases fat burning, global or not.

For RESV to have a similar effect, its effects would have to back-propogate in the reverse direction from respiration -> krebs cycle -> hormones/fat/muscle.

One needs not worry about "back-propagation."

There are studies that show LBM is preserved and fat is burned during starvation conditions (conditions in which SIRT1 is expressed).

Low carb means a higher protien diet which means your body thinks your are a hunter needing to be lean and mean rather than a farmer needing to be fat during winter.

No, not necessarily. Low carb can also mean more fat (unsaturated and saturated), not just more protein. Also, low carb doesn't necessarily lead to a leaner body. What is more important is overall calories consumed, AND exercise.

Edited by SearchHorizon, 08 September 2008 - 10:21 PM.

[maxwatt]

...
Based on what I have read, resveratrol doesn't increase testosterone; it decreases it. This is consistent with my understanding of how one's body attempts to suppress reproduction during starvation conditions (conditions that trigger SIRT1). I was not talking about psychological effects at all. For example, if you go on a diet, testosterone level will fall. ....

Not what I read.

1: Shin S, Jeon JH, Park D, Jang MJ, Choi JH, Choi BH, Joo SS, Nahm SS, Kim JC, Kim YB.

trans-Resveratrol relaxes the corpus cavernosum ex vivo and enhances testosterone levels and sperm quality in vivo.
Arch Pharm Res. 2008 Jan;31(1):83-7.
PMID: 18277612

Repeated treatment with resveratrol (50 mg/kg) did not cause an increase in body weight, reproductive organ weight or testicular microscopic findings; however, resveratrol did elicit an increase in blood testosterone concentration, testicular sperm counts and epididymal sperm motility by 51.6%, 15.8% and 23.3%, respectively, without influence on sperm deformity. In conclusion, we propose that resveratrol has a positive effect on male reproductive function by triggering a penile erection, as well as enhancing blood testosterone levels, testicular sperm counts, and epididymal sperm motility

[SearchHorizon]

...
Based on what I have read, resveratrol doesn't increase testosterone; it decreases it. This is consistent with my understanding of how one's body attempts to suppress reproduction during starvation conditions (conditions that trigger SIRT1). I was not talking about psychological effects at all. For example, if you go on a diet, testosterone level will fall. ....

Not what I read.

1: Shin S, Jeon JH, Park D, Jang MJ, Choi JH, Choi BH, Joo SS, Nahm SS, Kim JC, Kim YB.

trans-Resveratrol relaxes the corpus cavernosum ex vivo and enhances testosterone levels and sperm quality in vivo.
Arch Pharm Res. 2008 Jan;31(1):83-7.
PMID: 18277612

Repeated treatment with resveratrol (50 mg/kg) did not cause an increase in body weight, reproductive organ weight or testicular microscopic findings; however, resveratrol did elicit an increase in blood testosterone concentration, testicular sperm counts and epididymal sperm motility by 51.6%, 15.8% and 23.3%, respectively, without influence on sperm deformity. In conclusion, we propose that resveratrol has a positive effect on male reproductive function by triggering a penile erection, as well as enhancing blood testosterone levels, testicular sperm counts, and epididymal sperm motility

I will need to read the study. The result of the study is odd -- it is inconsistent with what I know starvation response and agents that have overall anti-inflammatory effect on the body.

I would like to know if caloric intake for the control group and the RESV group were kept identical ...

[maxwatt]

...
Based on what I have read, resveratrol doesn't increase testosterone; it decreases it. This is consistent with my understanding of how one's body attempts to suppress reproduction during starvation conditions (conditions that trigger SIRT1). I was not talking about psychological effects at all. For example, if you go on a diet, testosterone level will fall. ....

Not what I read.

1: Shin S, Jeon JH, Park D, Jang MJ, Choi JH, Choi BH, Joo SS, Nahm SS, Kim JC, Kim YB.

trans-Resveratrol relaxes the corpus cavernosum ex vivo and enhances testosterone levels and sperm quality in vivo.
Arch Pharm Res. 2008 Jan;31(1):83-7.
PMID: 18277612

Repeated treatment with resveratrol (50 mg/kg) did not cause an increase in body weight, reproductive organ weight or testicular microscopic findings; however, resveratrol did elicit an increase in blood testosterone concentration, testicular sperm counts and epididymal sperm motility by 51.6%, 15.8% and 23.3%, respectively, without influence on sperm deformity. In conclusion, we propose that resveratrol has a positive effect on male reproductive function by triggering a penile erection, as well as enhancing blood testosterone levels, testicular sperm counts, and epididymal sperm motility

I will need to read the study. The result of the study is odd -- it is inconsistent with what I know starvation response and agents that have overall anti-inflammatory effect on the body.

I would like to know if caloric intake for the control group and the RESV group were kept identical ...

While resveratrol induces expression of many of the same genes as caloric restriction, it is a far cry from starvation. Anti-inflammatory effect is nfKappa-B, mostly. Cox2 inhibition is weak. A number of body-builder supplements tout resveratrol as a testosterone booster, by blocking conversion of testosterone to estrogen.

[bixbyte]

I think the primary question is: Does RESV improve muscle/fat ratio? You've exanded it to isolate effects under different conditions of weight change. It could be expanded even more to break it up into "weight change caused by food intake change, exercise same" and "weight change caused by exercise change, food same".

My guess is that RESV only helps increase exercise either by testosterone desire and/or respiration improvement. So this answer gives "yes" to the primary question, but it switches cause and effect around so that none of the 6 expanded questions applies: my guess is that RESV->EXER-> LBM rather than directly EXER + RESV = LBM.

But getting back to your 4 questions: can resveratrol improve LBM under increasing or decreasing BM conditions? My observation is that under the reduced 500 mg/day i was taking the past 3 months under stopped exercise, I LOST 4 pounds and gained ~1/2 inch of belly fat. But my strength did not decrease as much as i expected. Complicating factor: I stopped creatine too which could explain reduced weight, but not much decrease in strength.

As far as LBM is concerned, I think of RESV as another nutrient in the soil and exercise like sunshine.

RESV affects respiration, but getting the energy to come from fat rather than muscle is a more global effect more strongly determined by hormones, exercise, and types of food. For RESV to have a similar effect, its effects would have to back-propogate in the reverse direction from respiration -> krebs cycle -> hormones/fat/muscle.

Low carb means a higher protien diet which means your body thinks your are a hunter needing to be lean and mean rather than a farmer needing to be fat during winter.

I think RES is actually a chemical modulator.
Throw certain meds or supplements at it and they become enhanced.
That is why Sirtris needed to use RES adjunct with Metformin in order to treat Diabetes.
Look at NOVO-TWO as an example.
It is used adjunctively with chemo.
But for reasons unexplainable, it you add 1:1000 parts of chemotherapy cisplatin to NOVO-TWO.
Then NOVO-TWO modulates chemo via the Glutathione pathway.
Resveratrol appears to modulate specific medications via a unique RESVERATROL pathway.

Why do I compare RES to : Glutathione ? They are both antioxidants.

as for hormones and RES please see my previous post:

http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=243052

[SearchHorizon]

While resveratrol induces expression of many of the same genes as caloric restriction, it is a far cry from starvation.

No doubt. I didn't mean to say that. What I meant is that generally speaking, things, when consumed, that tend to reduce inflammation (e.g., DHA, caloric reduction, etc.) are loosely correlated with testosterone reduction. Conversely, things like arachidonic acid, meat, etc. tend to be inflammatory -- when consumed, they tend to be correlated with increased testosterone production.

Anti-inflammatory effect is nfKappa-B, mostly. Cox2 inhibition is weak. A number of body-builder supplements tout resveratrol as a testosterone booster, by blocking conversion of testosterone to estrogen.

Blocking test to estrogen conversion is something else, related to anti-aromatase, which is unrelated to what we are talking about.

As for anti-inflammatory effect, I need to read about it more.

Edited by SearchHorizon, 11 September 2008 - 02:39 AM.

[oxonian31]

Lost a couple of Kilos on res even though I was a fairly optimal weight before taking it, to the extent that friends comment on how slim I look, even though I still carry a reasonable amount of lean muscle. This without any dietary changes or increase in calorie expenditure.