61 replies to this topic

[erzebet]

death, be it of the universe or of an organism is also a change. an irreversible change. the only way we can interfere with that change is to control the direction of that change. u know that the only constant of the universe is change.

[brokenportal]

Is it possible to sustain the universe's existence through the use of technology?

I was thinking yesterday that if the universe really does crunch back in on itself in a "big crunch" then will we find a way to create a proverbial "black box" in which to preserve the seeds of life, and maybe even copies of our minds? I doubt the universe will actually do that though, and even if it does, I doubt that this "universe" is the only universe.

I think the answer to your question is yes.

[brokenportal]

Is it possible to sustain the universe's existence through the use of technology?

I was thinking yesterday that if the universe really does crunch back in on itself in a "big crunch" then will we find a way to create a proverbial "black box" in which to preserve the seeds of life, and maybe even copies of our minds? I doubt the universe will actually do that though, and even if it does, I doubt that this "universe" is the only universe.

I think the answer to your question is yes.

[suspire]

Is it possible to sustain the universe's existence through the use of technology?

Talk about taking the Green Movement to an extreme!

[Vgamer1]

I remember reading somewhere about a scenario about post-singularity intelligence. I have no idea if its viable, but I thought it was interesting. Basically its the idea that once our minds our integrated with computers we would be able to "slow down" our perception of time and be able to experience say... 100 years of life in a few seconds. With better and better technology this ratio would increase over time. Then I remember them saying that with the "big crunch" scenario we would be able to use the increasing force of acceleration of all the mass in the universe coming together to drive this ratio up even more. Then what would eventually happen is that our ability to experience time would beat out the speed at which the universe collapsed, causing us to have an infinite amount of experience in a finite amount of time (somehow). I saw this explanation as the creation of a "new universe" in a sense, since our universe would technically be "dead" and we would exist in this artificial universe that we had created with technology within our minds.

Anyway, I thought that was an interesting idea so I threw it out there. I am actually more inclined to believe that either a "big crunch" or "big freeze" will eventually destroy the universe. Either a black hole will devour the cosmos or entropy will win out (one of the most basic laws of physics). However, if there was some kind of "big crunch" then it may be followed by a "big bang" if the black hole somehow lost its stability and exploded (somehow). In the event of a "big freeze" I don't see any recovery sadly. I hope we can avoid that fate.

[Luna]

I remember reading somewhere about a scenario about post-singularity intelligence. I have no idea if its viable, but I thought it was interesting. Basically its the idea that once our minds our integrated with computers we would be able to "slow down" our perception of time and be able to experience say... 100 years of life in a few seconds. With better and better technology this ratio would increase over time. Then I remember them saying that with the "big crunch" scenario we would be able to use the increasing force of acceleration of all the mass in the universe coming together to drive this ratio up even more. Then what would eventually happen is that our ability to experience time would beat out the speed at which the universe collapsed, causing us to have an infinite amount of experience in a finite amount of time (somehow). I saw this explanation as the creation of a "new universe" in a sense, since our universe would technically be "dead" and we would exist in this artificial universe that we had created with technology within our minds.

Anyway, I thought that was an interesting idea so I threw it out there. I am actually more inclined to believe that either a "big crunch" or "big freeze" will eventually destroy the universe. Either a black hole will devour the cosmos or entropy will win out (one of the most basic laws of physics). However, if there was some kind of "big crunch" then it may be followed by a "big bang" if the black hole somehow lost its stability and exploded (somehow). In the event of a "big freeze" I don't see any recovery sadly. I hope we can avoid that fate.

Still death after a long time, bad solution!

[brokenportal]

I remember reading somewhere about a scenario about post-singularity intelligence. I have no idea if its viable, but I thought it was interesting. Basically its the idea that once our minds our integrated with computers we would be able to "slow down" our perception of time and be able to experience say... 100 years of life in a few seconds. With better and better technology this ratio would increase over time. Then I remember them saying that with the "big crunch" scenario we would be able to use the increasing force of acceleration of all the mass in the universe coming together to drive this ratio up even more. Then what would eventually happen is that our ability to experience time would beat out the speed at which the universe collapsed, causing us to have an infinite amount of experience in a finite amount of time (somehow). I saw this explanation as the creation of a "new universe" in a sense, since our universe would technically be "dead" and we would exist in this artificial universe that we had created with technology within our minds.

Anyway, I thought that was an interesting idea so I threw it out there. I am actually more inclined to believe that either a "big crunch" or "big freeze" will eventually destroy the universe. Either a black hole will devour the cosmos or entropy will win out (one of the most basic laws of physics). However, if there was some kind of "big crunch" then it may be followed by a "big bang" if the black hole somehow lost its stability and exploded (somehow). In the event of a "big freeze" I don't see any recovery sadly. I hope we can avoid that fate.

Still death after a long time, bad solution!

Interesting, see there somebodies thinking, theres probably a solution, a way to do anything imaginable. Time slowed down to beat out the speed of collapse, good idea, and if nothing else, inspiring to other ideas like it.

How about, what if we find a way to tranfer our conciousnesses to waves so that we live in the waves. Then maybe we could eventually find a kind of "wave" that would be able to escape a collapsing universes force and survive until it exploded again so we could then once again use matter.

This stuff all seems out there to some, but well, you would never ever get a cave man to beleive that the things we have today could ever take place. Well, I guess you could, and some cavemen did dare to dream, hence leading to what we have now.

[Luna]

Ask me again in 10 thousand years

[Vgamer1]

Interesting, see there somebodies thinking, theres probably a solution, a way to do anything imaginable. Time slowed down to beat out the speed of collapse, good idea, and if nothing else, inspiring to other ideas like it.

How about, what if we find a way to tranfer our conciousnesses to waves so that we live in the waves. Then maybe we could eventually find a kind of "wave" that would be able to escape a collapsing universes force and survive until it exploded again so we could then once again use matter.

This stuff all seems out there to some, but well, you would never ever get a cave man to beleive that the things we have today could ever take place. Well, I guess you could, and some cavemen did dare to dream, hence leading to what we have now.

There's another idea I've heard. Basically from a book titled "The Starlight Crystal" by Christopher Pike. He's a great author if you've never heard of him. Anyway, basically this person reaches a speed so high that time around her passes incredibly quickly (see: time dilation). She watches the universe be destroyed and get recreated while at a safe distance.

I could imagine a scenario like that. I think again, that is assuming a "big crunch" as opposed to a "big freeze." I don't really know how any being could survive a "big freeze" or how the universe could recreate itself in that scenario.

Can anybody think of a way that a "big freeze" could work out to preserve the universe? I can't. Maybe it will be our goal to prevent a "big freeze" and alternatively cause a "big crunch" of some kind while staying a safe distance away from the new big bang that we cause.

Yea, as you can tell, I've been thinking about this kind of stuff for a long time...

Ask me again in 10 thousand years

Will do. Scout's honor.

Edited by Vgamer1, 26 December 2008 - 08:12 AM.

[Luna]

I think the big freeze is easier, stuff simply go further away, we just need to maintain our own haven and attract things to us (no, not a big crunch).

Also remember, energy is never really wasted, "waste energy" returns, it's just heat that is mis-used in the process.

As for the other scenario, a bit harder! but maybe we can use the energy driven to reverse to halt it and then use all the energy we gain (matter = energy) to shape the universe to our pleasing.

Besides, we barely know anything about gravity, who wants to bet we can make an anti gravity field just like we can make magnets repel?

[brokenportal]

Any of this could happen, and I definently think its worth thinking about more than not. Some people might think that this kind of stuff is naive to think about or something like that. but I say get the stick in the thought cauldron and keep it stirring. With so many thoughts flying around, bits and peices of good ones slowly accumulate around the edges over time, and so the more brainstorming the better.

Remember though that the big crunch or freeze or whatever may never happen, maybe could never happen, maybe the big bang never happened. I cant wait to hopefully get out there 10,000 years into the future and see how these concepts all develop. It is after all part of the meaning of life.

As for gravity, I dont understand why they dont understand it, and of course, I could be, probably am wrong, but it seems to me that gravity comes from the density of the atmosphere upon us. Like fish kind of.

[Luna]

Any of this could happen, and I definently think its worth thinking about more than not. Some people might think that this kind of stuff is naive to think about or something like that. but I say get the stick in the thought cauldron and keep it stirring. With so many thoughts flying around, bits and peices of good ones slowly accumulate around the edges over time, and so the more brainstorming the better.

Remember though that the big crunch or freeze or whatever may never happen, maybe could never happen, maybe the big bang never happened. I cant wait to hopefully get out there 10,000 years into the future and see how these concepts all develop. It is after all part of the meaning of life.

As for gravity, I dont understand why they dont understand it, and of course, I could be, probably am wrong, but it seems to me that gravity comes from the density of the atmosphere upon us. Like fish kind of.

The atmosphere is mainly aboce you, you'd be attracted into orbit and float there, no.

[brokenportal]

Isnt ground level part of the troposphere?

[Vgamer1]

Portal, the theory that the atmosphere causes gravity would not explain why planets stay in orbit... Or how black holes work.


As for your comment, Winterbreeze... I see the "big freeze" as a big problem. One of the fundamental laws of thermodynamics is that systems tend towards higher states of entropy.

Basically, when a system uses energy (or matter) it converts it to a more entropic state. Basically "something" is lost.

For example, when you burn gasoline for energy the carbon bonds break creating heat and exhaust. You "lose" the energy in the carbon bonds to heat. The only way to recreate those bonds is to "input" energy (by thousands of years of pressure underground for example).

Anyway, there could be a way to use black holes as an energy source via "infinite gravity" or something like that.

[Luna]

Well, energy must be infinite though
And I am pretty sure wasted heat gets back as usable energy

[Lazarus Long]

Alright everyone it is time to get reacquainted with modern physics here.

A. Atmospheric pressure is not gravity, please do not confuse the two, and there would be no atmospheric pressure without gravity because gravity holds the atmosphere to the earth creating what mimics a closed spherical container. I say mimics a closed container because it is NOT a closed container and in fact the atmosphere is leaking into outer space all the time, just as the earth's electromagnetic field is capturing stellar hydrogen emanating from the Sun as actual molecular H2 (another recent confirmed observation).

This was suggested a while back but only confirmed by recent satellite observation and in fact more recent observations demonstrate the atmosphere actually breathes in and out in a cycle we are only now coming to understand fully.

B. Also the gravity of super black holes hold the galaxies together and cause a lot of stellar evolution as a driving engine but they actually account for only a small amount of the matter in the universe. Matter in the form of normal mass is also only a small amount of the total available energy and mass. Dark Matter and Dark energy which have been confirmed by multiple recent observations, comprises the vast majority of matter and energy in the universe and accounts for why the universe is accelerating its expansion and will not collapse back into itself.

Apparently even though Einstein himself discarded the idea, his discovery of the *Cosmological Constant* has been reintroduced into modern astrophysics because it appears what was causing the aberration in the math was Dark Energy and Dark Energy appears to conform in its behavior to what Einstein described with his Cosmological Constant.

C. Astrophysicists are finding more evidence that the universe will accelerate faster than entropy can heat it up or gravity can cause it to collapse back on itself, and the result IS not just the Deep Freeze in some many billions of years in the future but a phenomenon even worse than that called the Big Rip by some astrophysicists. It appears that eventually as the universe accelerates its expansion beyond a certain point and a considerable amount more of the available matter is contained in black holes, the remaining matter will be ripped apart down to a subatomic level.

D. Einstein's theories of Relativity , both General and Special have actually been getting a lot of support from astronomic observations lately, including his theories as to how gravity works, which kind of puts a dent in the quantum gravity theory. It also puts a dent in the idea of FTL within the constraints of the universe. Multiverse shifting is a whole nuther ball of wax and requires a form of physics not subject to the observable laws of matter in our universe.

I suggest that everyone go back and google recent discoveries with respect to Dark Energy and Matter as well as some of the other ideas I have presented (like the Big Rip and atmospheric breathing) since the data has been coming in almost daily and some textbooks still being used are probably obsolete even if they were reprinted last year.

This is one hell of an exciting time to be alive.

[Lazarus Long]

Oh and Winterbreeze energy is NOT infinite. There is a finite amount of energy AND matter in the universe and none is being created, that is the Law of the Conservation of Mass and Energy that underlies most of modern physics.

[Luna]

Actually I remember reading the big rip won't happen even with acceleration.

How can you know the universe isn't already infinite in vacuum and therefore maybe also in matter and energy?

What about the energy inside the universe? this is why I believe in the energy constant, zero point energy.

[Vgamer1]

...This is one hell of an exciting time to be alive.

I completely agree with you. And thanks for the Physics lesson. I'm not very familiar with the "big rip" concept.

Would it be possible that the "big rip" will not affect all sectors of the universe? For example, isn't our Milky Way composed of "regular" matter and energy, so it would most likely stay in tact? Or will the "big rip" eventually affect the entire universe?

I'm starting to love this thread.

[Cyberbrain]

.

Edited by Kostas, 26 December 2008 - 07:44 PM.

[Cyberbrain]

There are three possible shapes that the universe may have: spherical, hyperbolic, and flat. Matter and energy are indeed finite, but if the universe is flat then the space in which it exists, I think, would be infinite in all three directions.

The existing evidence to date, based on measurements of the rate of expansion and the mass density, favors a universe that will continue to expand indefinitely (a flat universe), resulting in the big freeze scenario followed by the big rip.

Possible time line:


From what I read, with proton decay the universe will reach an extremely low-energy state called the dark era. What happens after this is speculative. It's possible that a Big Rip event may occur far off into the future. Also, the universe may enter a second inflationary epoch, or, assuming that the current vacuum state is a false vacuum, the vacuum may decay into a lower-energy state. Finally, the universe may settle into this state forever, achieving true heat death.

Though in all honesty, I think we are an extremely young species to know exactly how the universe works and what it's ultimate fate is. I think we'll have a better answer in a few million years from now

Edited by Kostas, 26 December 2008 - 07:45 PM.

[Lazarus Long]

The Big Rip is certainly a theory that is questionable but what has received more and more evidence is that expansion is accelerating and that leaves us either out in the cold or disintegrated,

http://www.universet...to-dark-energy/

The latest Chandra telescope observations imply we are in for a dark freeze.

As for matter and energy our galaxy also does contain dark matter and energy.

In fact all galaxies do and that is partially how we have been able to detect them, by how light still bends due to the gravitational effects even where there was no apparent matter able to impact the light waves in that manner.

This article helps explain how we measure dark energy.

http://www.washingto...ml?hpid=topnews

New on Dark Mater confirmed by observing a distant collision
http://www.google.co...oOfH0Im6L6u3U6Q


However NASA it appears is still supporting the Big Rip conclusion
http://www.geek.com/...apart-20081217/

[Lazarus Long]

Though in all honesty, I think we are an extremely young species to know exactly how the universe works and what it's ultimate fate is. I think we'll have a better answer in a few million years from now thumb.gif

sage advice folks

It is better to keep an open mind than assume we have all the answers


But at least we can finally say that we have scratched the surface of the truth and it is out there.

[almighty]

THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER

[LET ME GET EM!]

Woe! I have never thought of anything in that nature... the universe ending ! Hold on... I have to think...processing...processing...processing...processing.......Ok! Um, no sir. To ask that question one must ask it in its proper context: Will and can an individual universe end? Yes!, yes it can and has and will continue as long as self-destruction exist! Of course we understand that the universe itself isn't self-destructive. If so, It wouldn't exist! But, the individual universe(the conscious individual) can programm him or herself for self-destruction and bring its existance to an end... something not capable by existence itself.

[LET ME GET EM!]

"death, be it of the universe or of an organism is also a change. an irreversible change. the only way we can interfere with that change is to control the direction of that change. u know that the only constant of the universe is change."


Thus you speak of conscious control. I totally agree with that point!

Edited by LET ME GET EM!, 19 January 2009 - 03:43 PM.

[Cyberbrain]

THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER

Nice! The Last Question -- Isaac Asimov

[Wandering Jew]

THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER

Nice! The Last Question -- Isaac Asimov

that was a good story by Asimov, didn't Isaac Asimov's machine in the story proclaim at the end of universe: "LET THERE BE LIGHT"

that's the last thing it said, and there was LIGHT

[LET ME GET EM!]

Insufficient data??? Isaac Asimov???

We are the data. We are capable of knowing all things in existence just as we are capable of knowing our creator. There! many limit themselves to understand and answer that question(what created man) which limits their ability to answer the above question. Let there be light was entertainingly used in the science-fiction world of Isaac Asimov. The point remains of what he was simply saying... LET THERE BE LIGHT... We are the creators of all that exist in existence! And as for the data? we only need to record the little we learn/or create and in the near future it will be discovered and added unto to double, tripple its fold. And again, for that post of the universe and its self-destruction don't exist. The only species that can destroy the universe is man... but man will destroy him or herself before that happens so its in the best intrest of man to learn more of what and who he is to the universe and what it really is to man, get in tune with it-himself and learn that our universe as in the immutable laws of physics and nature would not violate itself in something as ridiculous as self-destruction.

[Cyberbrain]

Well the whole point of the story was that the super computer existing in hyperspace after the universe was destroyed was able to find a way to control entropy only after the end universe. It had to wait that long to collect enough data about it in order to understand how to reverse it. So far the rise of entropy is also one of our current obstacles to true immortality.

Edited by Kostas, 19 January 2009 - 11:07 PM.