64 replies to this topic

[william7]

You can monitor what your children are watching, and I find the Internet an priceless tool for teaching on a daily basis. The Television too can teach, if it is to discuss what others watch and why, or just to actually learn from science shows and documentaries.

Are you saying when you monitor what your children are watching and discussing what others watch with them, you discourage them from watching the violent and sexually explicit programming, and, instead, encourage them to watch the educational programs? This makes good sense to me.

Parenting reduces violent behavior

Depends on the quality of the parenting in my opinion. Some parents encourage violent behavior.

Sorry for the delay! I got distracted.

[william7]

Nothing good is pain free.

The same can said for the Twelve Tribes. They're trying to build a superior culture based on love and it's not easy.

Not allowing children exposure to other beliefs is much worse than any confusion and unhappiness they may initially have, causing ignorance, fear, misunderstanding of their fellow man... and I suspect isolation of this sort is much more likely to cause death and destruction than its specific lack, especially if and when these people do encounter the real world and other ideas as adults and start to question their own beliefs. They will be completely unprepared for this.

The children are not totally isolated from other beliefs, but they are taught that those other beliefs in many cases are wrong. However, the children are taught to respond to others possessing different beliefs with tolerance and love.

True, if the children do leave the community, they are definitely unprepared for the larger society in some areas. The Twelve Tribes raise their children to remain in the community.

[thughes]

TBH I do have respect for what the twelve tribes *adults* are doing. They have decided on a lifestyle they feel is the right way to live, it harms no one else, and they are actually going about making it real, from what I understand. Go them. I wish them success and happiness.

But, honestly, they don't get to make the decision for their children, however much they may wish to. That's not the way the world works. In the end, children grow up to adults and make their own decisions. They should be equipped to make the decisions that are right for them, which won't necessarily be the decisions that were right for their parents. Trying to make these decisions for them by proxy by isolating them from the world is just another form of bondage. Its never right, and will frequently end in harm.

I really don't know exactly how the Twelve Tribes plan to educate their children (I'd probably have to go reread all the threads on them to see). I hope they choose to educate their children enough about the world enough so they are equipped to make a learned decision rather than try to make one for them, and so they are equipped to survive and prosper in the outside world should they not wish to remain in the community. I believe one of the isolated religious communities (quakers? not sure) sends their adult children out to experience the world and make a decision. I have no idea how much they are educated in the world prior to that, but it seems to me that's something worth emulation for a religious community: membership should not be by force, and isolation (a removal of the knowledge of other options) is just a proxy for force. The community itself is made poorer for it.

- Tracy

[william7]

TBH I do have respect for what the twelve tribes *adults* are doing. They have decided on a lifestyle they feel is the right way to live, it harms no one else, and they are actually going about making it real, from what I understand. Go them. I wish them success and happiness.

I'm glad you see some of the wisdom in what the Twelve Tribes are doing. What they're doing isn't easy.

I really don't know exactly how the Twelve Tribes plan to educate their children (I'd probably have to go reread all the threads on them to see). I hope they choose to educate their children enough about the world enough so they are equipped to make a learned decision rather than try to make one for them, and so they are equipped to survive and prosper in the outside world should they not wish to remain in the community.

You must remember that the goal of the Twelve Tribes is to keep their children and themselves from being polluted by the world - both psychologically and physically. James 1:27. They're training their children to overcome the world and to take part in the new age to come in Yahweh's Kingdom on earth to be ruled by Yahshua and last a thousand years. 1 John 5:4; Revelation 2:26; 5:6-10; 20:6.

When I was visiting the Twelve Tribes, I had the luck to attend their homeschooling seminar where they adopted a written curriculum that all the communities now use. Unfortunately I didn't have a chance to read much of it. I did, however, get the chance to bind a number of copies of it in their print shop. From everything I heard, it sounded good though.

Sorry for the delay in responding! I'm having trouble keeping up these days. I hope to get back in the swing of things soon.

[thughes]

You must remember that the goal of the Twelve Tribes is to keep their children and themselves from being polluted by the world

Sure it sounds good if you happen to believe the same things as the people doing the isolating.

Think big picture: think some people with truly awful beliefs completely isolating their children like this. Would this be right? Do you think its ok for such children to be denied access to knowledge of better ways to live, to the point when they reach adulthood they don't even realize there's a choice? I don't think so myself.

If its not right for awful belief systems, its not right for anyone.

We all need to move on from absolute surity in our own belief systems to a bit of humility, and not seek to rigidly impose them on other people, even our own children. Belief systems that can only be passed on in isolation are false belief systems anyways. If what you believe is true and right, you need neither force nor isolation to pass your beliefs on. Plus, you should respect your children enough to prepare them to make their own informed choices. I'm sure this can be done with a bit of effort, even in a mostly isolated community with mostly homeschooling. Not that I'm an expert, but maybe some classes or leisure activities (sports? band?) outside the community, to get the children used to dealing with other types of people, good teaching about other cultures and the history of their surrounding culture, and probably 20th century history and politics so they know the world they live in, field trips to cities to visit museums and see how other people live and stuff... just ways to get the children some exposure to other cultures and ways of living, without necessarily completely immersing them in it. Plus of course, knowledge of choices outside the community, enough education to get into college, and emotional support should the eventual adults wish to leave the community (I don't wish to accuse the twelve tribes of not offering this one, for all I know they might be completely supportive in such a situation... but some isolated cultures are not). All good stuff.

Personally if it were up to me I'd go further, since I believe in some form of children's rights. I'd mandate classes on critical thinking (without reference to religion... apply to religion on your own time) and basic psychology for everyone, as soon as they were at a required education level (probably highschool). I wouldn't mandate public schools (they can suck) but I'd probably mandate some form of yearly public testing to make sure education is up to standards, and a strict standard for the minimum education required, which would be enough to get you into college. Only people who can meet these standards would be able to homeschool. Maybe some of that is already done, dunno!

Well whatever! I'm pretty sure we're arguing in circles at this point, I've probably said half this stuff before. Please at least consider the value of cultural exposure just to teach love and tolerance =). And think of the good example they may be setting for other children.. can't have that if they are in total isolation.

Sorry for the delay in responding! I'm having trouble keeping up these days

Got very little time recently myself =)

- Tracy

Edited by thughes, 18 December 2008 - 04:49 PM.