5 replies to this topic

[estropico]

Cryonics: Why it has failed, and possible ways to fix it - with Mike Darwin

The next ExtroBritannia event is scheduled for Saturday August 2, 2008; 2:00pm - 4:00pm. Venue: Room 541, 5th floor, Main Building, Birkbeck College, Torrington Square, London WC1E 7HX. The event is free and everyone’s welcome.

Guest Speaker: Mike Darwin.

President of Alcor Life Extension 1983-1988, Research Director 1988-1992. Described by Wikipedia as "Second only to Robert Ettinger as one of the most influential figures in the controversial field of cryonics".

The talk will draw on the speaker's extensive personal experience with cryonics - the low-temperature preservation of humans and other animals that can no longer be sustained by contemporary medicine, until such time in the future when resuscitation may be possible.

The talk will cover: the audacious ambition and vision of cryonics, practical details of how it works, a whistle-stop history of cryonics, issues with the governance of cryonics organisations,
factors influencing public perception of cryonics, and reasons for both fear and hope for the future of cryonics.

Special attention will be given to the decline of cryonics in the UK and the failure of UK cryonics to establish a robust, full-service beachhead in Britain. The talk will also highlight what can be done to re-establish cryonics in the UK as a stable enterprise that will deserve the confidence of both its members and the public as a competent, high quality undertaking offering services which meet the highest ethical, scientific and biomedical standards.

The meeting is sponsored by the UK Transhumanist Association. There is no charge to attend. Join the debate!

The venue

Birkbeck College - Room 541, 5th floor, Main Building, Torrington Square (which is a pedestrian-only square), London WC1E 7HX - MAP: http://www.bbk.ac.uk/maps

The nearest tube station is Russell Square. Come out of the tube station and turn left, to walk west along Bernard St. Cross over Herbrand St then Woburn Place and keep walking westwards, on the north side of the square. Cross Bedford Way, and turn right into Thornhaugh St, then immediately left to enter Torrington Square through the pedestrian-only courtyard outside SOAS (the School of Oriental and African Studies). Veer right and you'll see the main entrance to Birkbeck College on the left as you walk up Torrington Square. Take the lift to the 5th floor and follow the signs to room 541.

Discussion is likely to continue after the event in a nearby pub, for those who are able to stay. There's also the option of joining some of the UKTA regulars for drinks/lunch beforehand, starting c. 12.30, in "The Friend At Hand" pub which is situated behind Russell Square tube station on Herbrand Street. There's also the option of joining some of the UKTA regulars for drinks/lunch beforehand, starting c. 12.30, in the same pub. To find us, look out for a table where there's a copy of Aubrey de Grey's book "Ending Aging" displayed.

www.extrobritannia.blogspot.com
www.transhumanist.org.uk

[caliban]

I would greatly appreciate any reports back from that event.

[Alistair]

I would greatly appreciate any reports back from that event.

Hi Caliban,

Here is a report from David Wood:

Each of the recent Extrobritannia meetings has left me thinking that
we are only starting to scratch the surface of some deep and
significant topics. The meetings end, not with clarity and simple
answers, but with a host of important unresolved issues. (I still
see that as important progress!)

The meeting on Saturday by Mike Darwin, "Why cryonics has failed",
falls into the same pattern. It was also the longest and most
emotionally intense meeting I remember: Mike was on his feet for two
hours and fifteen minutes, and then sat down while almost the whole
audience (22 people) stayed in the room and continued to ask him
questions until 5.30pm.

To get some of the gist of what Mike said, see his recent posting in
the Yahoo! Cryonics Europe list:
http://tech. groups....e/ message/2049
and also take note of the reply by Alan Sinclair:
http://tech. groups....e/ message/2050

For another take on what Mike covered, see the writeup of the
meeting I've put in my personal blog:
www.dw2-0.com/ 2008/08/human- obstacles- to-audacious- technical. html

Note to self: make sure in the future to follow your own rule to get
an emergency mobile phone contact number for the speaker, so you can
speak to them in case of non-appearance! (I was feeling pretty
awkward until 2.15pm, when Mike showed up.)

// David Wood

[Alistair]

Hi Caliban,

Here is a report from Julian Morrison. If you like these, you would be welcome to join Extrobritannia.

A micro-summary as I remember it, filtered through my own ignorance...

- The first people involved had no head for business and weren't
credentialed - just enthusiasts. That seems to be a recurring theme.
They over-promised and had no idea how to deliver nor even any
intention of personally trying. They wanted someone else to step in
and make it real.

- Mike got into it really early. He had been freezing turtles and
reviving them as a kid's science hobby. He read a cryonics story in
the paper. The industry was so small he got right in at the core just
by turning up.

- He learned on the job. Everybody was learning on the job. Nobody
knew anything about how to cool people quickly or how to store liquid
nitrogen. Serious mistakes were made. Storing people on their side or
head up was a stupid idea. Probably because people were thinking in
terms of "funeral" not "hospital".

- A lack of proper prior planning (and professionalism) resulted in
piss poor performance. People were being left dead and warm for far
too long. They were being allowed to cyclically warm up and re-freeze
in their tubes as the nitrogen boiled off. The guy who was supposed to
re-fill the tubes had a day job. Early publicity photos for "Life"
magazine were staged fakes, pretending a level of professionalism that
simply didn't exist.

- They created a scientific procedure for freezing someone. It was
actually quite good. They didn't follow it.

- The industry was full of crazies and con-men. The "ideas man" who
got it all started had no hesitation going on TV and endorsing them.

- The intelligentsia were starting to bite, but they just as quickly
caught a whiff of something nasty, and were turned off.

- It turned out that some patients had been stored in such an
appallingly lazy way (by a contractor charged with running storage)
that they were completely unrecoverable - stinking corpses. Mike
showed some horrific pictures, including people he had earlier helped
to freeze. Many pioneers were lost. (So much hope, so casually
destroyed! I was in shock seeing it.) This was a huge press scandal
and left a permanent taint on the industry's image.

- Meanwhile the actual science had been improving, In fact Mike took
some time off to do groundbreaking research himself, freezing and
reviving dogs. He says he shouldn't have done that.

- Small industries stand or fall by the personalities of a very few
people. Everything went to pieces when a few key leaders died or
walked away.

- There used to be an Alcor in the UK, with good facilities. It
refused to do storage. Mike relates the idea of "our friends in the
future" (who will fix our mistakes) to the UK Alcor's idea of "our
friends across the sea" (who will store our patients for us). In both
cases, lazy and ultimately unrealistic. When the USA Alcor stopped
accepting patients from the UK branch, it had no trained technicians
or storage, and broke up.

- Even now, Alcor is ignoring medical advances and using sloppy
procedure. They are living hand-to-mouth on profits and don't have
anywhere near enough emergency savings. Their corporate management is
no good. They are paralyzed by caution.

- The Cryonics Institute are nice, capable, teachable people but they
have an impossibly small budget and staff, and no specialist skills,
nor any access to a talent pool for apprentice style learning. They
are doing their best. Rather than having a team at the bedside, they
rely on coaching a local mortician over the phone. They work in a
corner of the morgue and are not allowed to keep their stuff on-site.
What can you say?

- The situation in Russia looks really promising, because Russians
have a good rationalist attitude to immortality and cryonics, and they
don't suffer fools. Some big names in Russia are on-side. There is a
lot of money available from oligarchs.

- The UK could reboot its' cryonics industry, all it needs are
businesslike, not pie-in-the-sky people, who are willing to put in the
effort and investment.

- As of right now, if good modern scientific procedure were used and
used well, Mike estimates a 90% chance of intact informational
survival. Back in the beginning, it was more like 2%.

(I'm sure I mis-remembered some of that and left more out. If you see
a mistake or omission please correct me.)

[Shannon Vyff]

this was a great addition to the other view of Mike's speech put up, thank you

[Athanasios]

He has some great criticisms and awareness raising points. Does he have a "road-map" for going forward, besides being aware of past faults?