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#1 Bruce Klein

  • Guardian Founder
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Posted 30 September 2002 - 02:49 AM


<BJKlein> OFFICIAL CHAT BEGINS NOW
<Sumadartsun> I'll warn #sl4 :)
<BJKlein> ahh thanks
* BJKlein will delay just a few
<BJKlein> Topic: "Proactive About Life Extension & Immortality"
* caliban cheers
<BJKlein> Initially we'll get into some of the things that we can do to help the Institute
<BJKlein> I've started a proactive resource page:
<BJKlein> www.imminst.org/proactive
<MichaelA> I liked the rough flyers, Bruce, I think they will do for some sort of advertising
<BJKlein> yes.. the key word is rough, heh
<BJKlein> but a start nontheless
<MichaelA> nice banner too
<MichaelA> I will send out emails asking for people to put it up
<BJKlein> thanks, i've played around with macromedia
<BJKlein> great
<BJKlein> and as it says, i'll be happy to customize
<BJKlein> btw, the chat is open this go around..
<BJKlein> no monologue
<caliban> k
<BJKlein> Thanks Caliban for the suggestions you have made in under.
<BJKlein> But basically, the goal of the Institute is to help people learn more about the possibility of immortality...
<BJKlein> and the key there is "possibility"
<BJKlein> we'll never know for sure if immortality is possible, however, it's importance can not be understated
<Sumadartsun> *overstated
<Sumadartsun> :)
<AHE> Greetings. I am a new correspondant
* Sumadartsun greets AHE
<AHE> I think that physical immortality is a possibility
<BJKlein> welcome AHE
<BJKlein> how did you hear about us?
<AHE> web search to your interesting web site
<caliban> BJ: why "but" ?
<BJKlein> sorry?
<caliban> BJ: you wrote "thanks ... but...."
<BJKlein> But basically, the goal of the Institute is to help people learn more about the possibility of immortality...
<BJKlein> must have been a cutoff
<BJKlein> I was thanking you for your help in "under"
<AHE> BJK, why do you think that it will never be known if physical immort is possible?
<BJKlein> AHE: because if there exist risk to life ...
<BJKlein> there will always be the possibility of death
<BJKlein> if you life for a million years.. and the chance of death is only .001 % per year..
<BJKlein> you'll be dead soon
<Mind> Hello
<Mind> no death
<Mind> no death
<Mind> no death
<BJKlein> so my goal is to lower the chance of death or find a work around
* caliban greets all newcomers especially AHE
<BJKlein> welcome Mind :)
<Mind> hello AHE
<Mind> hello caliban
<BJKlein> When I think about Physical Immortality, I like to think in terms of thousands of years...
<caliban> the topic is "being proactive about life extention" (BJ- could ou maybe change that in the chat for tonite?)
<MichaelA> Instead of millions/billions?
<BJKlein> I can't grasp millions yet
<BJKlein> however the problem of heat death is in my mind
* Sumadartsun likes to think in terms of powers of ten
<MichaelA> I can't grasp living for thousands or even centuries as a human, I would go mad
<Mind> We will find a way around heat death
<BJKlein> sure caliban
*** Retrieving #immortal info...
<MichaelA> Heat death is so far off
* Sumadartsun thinks there should be a book or website called "powers of one", and it should have the same photograph on every page
<MichaelA> Heh
<Mind> My mind cannot not even imagine how different things will be in even a hundred years
<chronophasiac> i can't even imagine how different things will be in two *decades*
<MichaelA> It depends on your projection of the future
<BJKlein> ok back to the topic
<MichaelA> um, lesse
<MichaelA> how many people volunteered to do news?
<BJKlein> So, what's the most effective way to help more people learn about the possibility of physical immortality?
<MichaelA> Through articles
<Mind> Newslatters
<BJKlein> I have 2 that have expressed interest
<Mind> Would those be articles submitted to popular periodicals
<Mind> ??
<MichaelA> No, various websites
<Mind> or to popular websites?
<BJKlein> www.imminst.org/news
<Mind> ok
<MichaelA> Whichever websites
<MichaelA> Relatively popular, maybe
<Jeremiah> Hey Mind, we should start an Immortalist group here in Wausau.
<Mind> I know
<Jeremiah> I live in the city now.
<Mind> definitely
<caliban> As I wrote elsewhere: Conceptually I think one has to divide the discussion into three groups
<caliban> 1) memetics
<caliban> how to go about it generally - sof approch vs. hard approach, subtle vs. agressive, serous vs. appealingly wild etc.
<caliban> 2) tactics
<MichaelA> All that's required to start an immortalist group is a small web page with some information and a semi-regular meeting schedule
<Mind> tactics...like media stunts?
<caliban> are flyers more effective than tV adverts? how to coorsinate regionally etc.
<caliban> 3) specifics
<caliban> how should the flyer/ letter/advert etc look like? who does what when? who has got which connections to where? etc..
<Mind> publicity stunts
<Jeremiah> We should maybe just start a local WTA or Extropian group...
<Mind> i think a WTA would be cool
* MichaelA is sort of working on a WTA branch right now
<AHE> what is WTA?
<Mind> Michael is not in Wausau right ...
<MichaelA> World Transhumanist Association
<MichaelA> No, am not
<MichaelA> www.transhumanism.org, go check it out
<Mind> ok
<MichaelA> Ok, starting with #1 as Caliban suggested?
<Mind> websites a great...but we are kind-of preaching to the choir I fee
<AHE> If the discussion is physical immortality, then AHE is prepared to start offering an option right now
<BJKlein> caliban: your right on spot with your suggestions
<MichaelA> We should target the fringe, like groups that contain small immortalist leanings but are not explicitly so
<Mind> why only the fringe??
<MichaelA> ie, not WTA, not Extropy
<MichaelA> what were you thinking besides the fringe?
<BJKlein> And I'm happy to do as much work on flyers, letters, ect. and let others double check me
<Mind> mass media BABY!!
<MichaelA> Getting a pamphlet up in the next month would be nice
<MichaelA> Mind :\
<Jeremiah> I'm fairly handy with graphics stuff, I could throw together some slick flyers in the gimp. It would give me an excuse to learn it.
<BJKlein> my spelling and grammar have a lot to be desired
<Mind> a pamphlet would be awesome]
<BJKlein> Yes.. In under we have plans for a pamphlet
<Jeremiah> Ooh, and t-shirts!
<Mind> I suggested T-shirts last week with Utna
<MichaelA> I suggest that one memetic category we should target that is a good candidate for what I'm talking about: cryonicists
<BJKlein> T-shirts have also been tossed around as an idea
<Jeremiah> A good immortalist story: Border Guards by Egan. You can find it at http://www.netspace.net.au/~gregegan/
<MichaelA> Many cryonicists may not think that radical life extension will be achievable within their lifetime
<Mind> are not cryonicists already transhuman sort of
<MichaelA> They blur
<Mind> ok
<MichaelA> Across the spectrum
<caliban> fringe: Randians, Intellectuals, Thespians, Roleplayers, Scifyfreaks, Satanists, Trekkies, Millionaires... ?
<Mind> Would it be bad to try and spread the transhuman/immortal idea into the popular culture at this point?
<MichaelA> Caliban, sort of, heh
<Mind> Are not Trekkies already all transhuman types
<MichaelA> Don't know about thespians there...
<MichaelA> Trekkies are certainly not
<Sumadartsun> The magazine of the humanist society here had an article on transhumanism as its cover article this month
<MichaelA> Wow
<BJKlein> If anyone is interested in help in the Institute on a more proactive basis, feel free contact me about joining the members only underground
<Sumadartsun> it wasn't even really negative
<MichaelA> Dutch folk are very progressive
<Mind> why would it be negative?
<MichaelA> Because transhumanism is against human dignity, of course
<Sumadartsun> most initial reactions to transhumanism that I've seen have been negative.
<MichaelA> *coughs*
<Mind> I feel like there are a lot of people out there open to the idea of transhumanism...but maybe I haven't really been out there ...
<MichaelA> If there really were, I think our movement would be growing a bit faster than it currently is
<Mind> Jeremiah...I definitely think a transhuman club would go over good in Wausau
<Jeremiah> I'll help out, I have to warn you I'm already working on the singularity and some other stuff.
<Sumadartsun> I think more people than usually assumed reject transhumanism because its predictions on technology just seem implausible
<Sumadartsun> far out
<caliban> BJ: hm, it might be more focused to talk about this with /under activists again later?
<BJKlein> yes, caliban.. this may need to be a more one on one topic
<Sumadartsun> instead of for religious reasons, or luddism, etc
<Mind> When I listen to the news nowadays...about government predictions of social security status 20 years from now...or a pro athlete signing a 10 year deal...I kind-of laugh...things will be so radically different...how come people cannot see this?
<MichaelA> It's a major step to envision how technology can go beyond what it's always done before
*caliban* speaking of hich- now that the dissertation is out of the way, I should like a talk sometime
<Mind> For a t-shirt I was thinking...FASTER, BETTER, SMARTER on the front...and SINGINST.ORG on the back
<Mind> Or...
<Mind> WHY DIE on the front and IMMINST.ORG on the back
<BJKlein> lol
<MichaelA> the former would probably be considered offensive :\
<Mind> why?
<MichaelA> heh
<Mind> I don't find it offensive
<MichaelA> Have you argued the Singularity with many people?
<BJKlein> Speeking of which...
<Mind> no
<MichaelA> Of course not *you*
<BJKlein> Any feeling on the Chip situation?
<Mind> ok...I get you
<MichaelA> Well, they are offended by everything and anything, to actually get someone to internalize the implications of the Singularity requires coming on softly
<MichaelA> Chip, is that person gone?
<Mind> I thought a lot of the *fringe* people would like the Faster Smarter Better t-shirt
<MichaelA> I emailed him asking if he wanted to write an article criticizing the Singularity, haven't gotten a response
<MichaelA> Oh, true true :D
<MichaelA> Hell, I would buy it in an instant
<Mind> I think it is kind-of catchy
<Mind> Maybe I will print up a few
<Mind> and mail them out to you guys
<Mind> I would have to get permission ffrom Singinst thoug
<Sumadartsun> if you want to go for the shock effect, you could use a quote such as this: We all have a terminal disease, with less than 100 years left to live. -- Hans Moravec
<Mind> Do you think Singinst would allow such a t-shirt?
<chronophasiac> the Singularity Institute already has t-shirt designs in the works, they'll soon be available for purchase
<MichaelA> Mayyyybe
<Mind> Maybe I will e-mail them
<Mind> and ask
<Mind> I figure it can't hurt
<MichaelA> MikeR: would the Singularity Institute allow the existence of that other shirt as well?
<Mind> I would wear the shirt
<chronophasiac> i can't speak for the Singularity Institute at present
<MichaelA> The current shirts-in-the-works are pretty interesting
<MichaelA> Can you give a wild guess, out of curiosity?
<Mind> are there pictures on the web?
<chronophasiac> (i can tell you i already have a preview version and its pretty badass)
<MichaelA> (I think I *may* have seen the preview)
<MichaelA> I like the new logo, in any case
<Mind> Is the new logo...that spiral thingy on the website homepage?
<MichaelA> No, that's the old logo
<chronophasiac> no, the new logo is a handshake
<Jeremiah> How about a four dimensional 'chaos star'/extropy star?
<Mind> where is the new logo
<chronophasiac> one hand is filled with binary to represent an AI
<MichaelA> http://www.sysopmind...Front-small.jpg
<MichaelA> Too bad Extropy doesn't use that logo anymore
<chronophasiac> yep, michael, that's my t-shirt
<chronophasiac> oh, the questions i get
<Jeremiah> ooh, that's a bit cheesy.
<chronophasiac> super meme spreading tool
<MichaelA> It is a bit cheesy
<Mind> I like that logo
<caliban> I am a bit startled- why does the SingInst have to appove of our advertisements?
<MichaelA> There are other less-cheesy ones, but I like the logo
<Jeremiah> No offense.
* Sumadartsun likes the logo but not the "history is ending" part.
<BJKlein> yeh, i'd say it's a little cheesy
<Mind> Do they own a copyright on the word Singinst?
<MichaelA> Well I suppose not
<MichaelA> "Singularity Institute", maybe?
* Sumadartsun should go to sleep.
<Mind> If they own the domain name "Singinst.org" does that prevent anyone from using it on a t-shirt?
<Jeremiah> I'd rather get the approval of the SingInst board on anything done to further their aims.
<BJKlein> hmm, good question.. caliban you know?
<Mind> yes
<Mind> will get approval
<Jeremiah> Regardless of wether they've got a copyright or not.
<nicelamer> :>
<BJKlein> welcome nicelamer
<Mind> hi
<MichaelA> Hello Mr. Nice Lamer
<nicelamer> hellos :o)
<nicelamer> ;)
<nicelamer> did i miss anythin :o?
<Mind> we are talking about t-shirts promoting transhumanism and immortality
<BJKlein> Topic: Proactive About Live Extension and physical immortality
<caliban> BJ: if ou were asking about the copright? - no dice! SingInst is at best an unregistered trademark
<BJKlein> thanks caliban, I figured you'd know
<Mind> and other promotionasl stuff
<nicelamer> ah. t-shirts :>
<Mind> newsletters
<Mind> articles
<BJKlein> Mind, you do get the newsletter right?
<Mind> yes
<BJKlein> and I'd like to get volunteer writers for the news section: www.imminst.org/news
<nicelamer> wat newsletter? :ox
<BJKlein> and submitting articles to websites would be great
<Mind> what kind-of news...just stuff relating to immortality...and singularity
<BJKlein> nicelamer join www.imminst.org
<nicelamer> :o>
<MichaelA> Bruce: can you do something where you give people free email addresses, or would that take up too much serverspace?
<BJKlein> Mind: News that would be important to an immortalist
<nicelamer> ah. yes, i've been there before.
<BJKlein> No, I'd be happy to set up email address
<Mind> news for people already signed up....not like news for the general public
<BJKlein> If you like name@imminst.org I'd be happy to set that up... it can be forwarded to a current address also
<MichaelA> How many could you give out?
<BJKlein> as many as needed
<MichaelA> (I'm thinking about this in the context of meme-spreading)
<Mind> cool
<MichaelA> Well then why don't you create a new page that offers that, free with membership on the forums?
<BJKlein> in other words, no limit, except for overlap of names
<nicelamer> what does the word 'meme' mean :o?
<Mind> hi Ziana
<MichaelA> A "meme" is an idea
<BJKlein> Welcome Back Ziana
<Ziana> hiya
<nicelamer> ah. i like ideas ;)
<MichaelA> Calling it a "meme" means thinking of idea in terms of replicating entities - ideas spread, mutate, thrive over others, etc
<nicelamer> i'm not without many ;)
<MichaelA> "Memetics" is the science of memes
<MichaelA> "science"
<caliban> sadli "imminst" is not veri telling
<MichaelA> It's a soft science, obviously
<BJKlein> caliban: true
<MichaelA> At least it shows the URL
* caliban has lost his "uai" kei (!) - please excuse
<BJKlein> i'd love www.immortal.org
<caliban> immortalis.org?
<Mind> So Jeremiah....I have some time available in the evening...on Oct 7th, 8th, or 9th...to meet and organize a local transhuman/immortalists/extropian chapter...or at least talk about it.
<BJKlein> But basically, the tools we have now are the newsletter, flyers, a banner, chat, forum, and a couple of documents
<caliban> immortalism.org?
<BJKlein> to long
<BJKlein> or at least that's my first impression
<nicelamer> what's the best nootropic drug? :)
<caliban> hello utnapishtim
<Utnapishtim> hey Caliban
<nicelamer> i need some smarts ~> O:>
<Utnapishtim> how are ya buddy?
<nicelamer> ;o)
<BJKlein> ask LifeMirage in the forum nicelamer
<Utnapishtim> how was your flight?
<caliban> utnap: later lets not interrupt the "official" chat
<Utnapishtim> what is the topic?
<BJKlein> Topic: "Proactive about Live Extension and physical immortality"
<Mind> *Mind blushes*
<nrv8> lol
<Mind> I always interuppt the chat
<nicelamer> BJ - LifeMirage is just one expert..
<Utnapishtim> Hey Mind
<nicelamer> with bias towards his/her experiences :o(
<BJKlein> why is it that I always misspell live=life
<Mind> hry
<Mind> hey
<nicelamer> I need a collaboration of experts :>
<nicelamer> oh well :(
<BJKlein> LifeMirage is probably as good as a collaboration in my mind
<caliban> BJ/Mind: i agree that the current tools are in principle pretti adequate to provide information for members
<caliban> t shirts: are nice but a bit useless considering the number of people that will wear them - press releases and publiciti stunts are more promising
<nicelamer> BJKlein - i'd have to disagree, just because collaboration can do wonders with minds ;)
<BJKlein> no I agree nicelamer, I say that in jest
<BJKlein> however, LifeMirage is probably has more knowledge than all of us here put together
<nicelamer> good. i'm glad we do =:)
<nicelamer> It's just unfortunate no site really exists what I speak of :(
<Mind> press releases...there is a good mode of spreading the word...I feel anyway
<BJKlein> LifeMirage laments to the same effect
<BJKlein> Mind, I really like the idea....
<BJKlein> Did anyone see the plug in the recent WTA newsletter?
<Mind> I also feel we should foward news stories about nutrition...nootropes...genetic advances...AI research...to more news outlets
<crw> full house tonight.
<BJKlein> About the "New" Immortaltiy Institute
<BJKlein> Welcome Back crw
<caliban> The thing is just that we have not iet adressed 1) memetics
<Mind> hi crw
<Ziana> bj- yep
<Mind> like...what memes to spread
<caliban> the WTA can afford to do press releases memeticalli
<caliban> immortalist generalli have more difficulties
<Utnapishtim> To my mind a facotr you need to consider is, WHO are you trying to spread "the message" to and to what effect?
<MichaelA> You're saying immortalism is harder to "sell" than general transhumanism? yah
<MichaelA> The message: "radical life-extension is a real near-term possibility, and people are talking about it"
<Utnapishtim> michael: See that I like!!!!!!!!!
<BJKlein> I'd say the general concept of "living forever" is an easier sell than transhumanism
<nrv8> "The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist."
<MichaelA> To whom: people considering the implications of life extension but not quite accepting of the possibility of abolishing death entirely
<MichaelA> I agree with Bruce
<caliban> MichA: no its easier (!) to sell - that is one of the reasons for its diffuculties +
<MichaelA> "Living forever" in general has roots many thousands of years back in culture
<MichaelA> Caliban: Which difficulties?
<caliban> because it has an "selfish" appeal to it *
<MichaelA> True
<Mind> I feel we should at least try to spread the word about transhumanism/immortalism to the general public...maybe they would rally around such a noble cause...that could save all of us
<caliban> newsagencies like to ridicule that
<MichaelA> That's what documents like an Immortality FAQ and an Ethics of Immortalists would be for
<Mind> right\
<Ziana> michael- ~nod~... the ancient egyptians are one of the most well-known
<Utnapishtim> I think another thing to consider is the "quality" of the people who show an interest
<Utnapishtim> Quality people are known to be skeptical in my experience
<MichaelA> But the fact that immortalism goes way back makes it all the more harder to decouple it from its ancient connotations
<Utnapishtim> particularly about extraordinary claims and ambitions
<Mind> It is worth a try though
<MichaelA> Uth, true
<Mind> even if there is a little riduicule involved
* caliban once again sincereli appologises for a wrecked keiboard and serious latenci
<Utnapishtim> I think Michael hit on soemthing imprtant
<Utnapishtim> I really like the emphasis on radical life extension over the forever angle
<MichaelA> But by binding the immortalism concept to the main body of contemporary futurism like transhumanism and various authors' predictions, we can show that our outlook is completely scientific and our efforts pragmatic and practical
<BJKlein> Utnapishtim, in general, we need to think about the audience... for a general flyer "Radical Life Extension" is much better than "Immortality"
<MichaelA> We can say that if you carry life extension far enough, it's likely you're going to hit a point where you have a sustainable process for immortality until something unexpected intervenes
<Utnapishtim> BJ: I entirely agree
<BJKlein> however, for a tranhuman/sl3/sl4 group Immortality is better
<Mind> but we do not want to turn-off the audience at first glance...so I would say a "soft" approach would be good,,,and then bring up immortalism a little later
<Utnapishtim> I would like to emphasise extended youth
<Utnapishtim> People already try to extend their youthfulness by various means
<BJKlein> yes, Radical Healthy Life Extension
<caliban> Michael: agreed this conjunction of forces is the onli meaningful wai - dont fall into the misticism trap that some crionicists went into in the earli dais
<Utnapishtim> from exercise to makeup to plastic surgery
<Utnapishtim> and would be less likely to regard such attempts as "unnatural"
<nicelamer> caliban - your 'whys' turn into 'eyes' ;o)
<MichaelA> Luckily I wasn't around when the crazy cryonicists were muddying the waters of the futurism meme
<MichaelA> Most cryonicists I've met today are level-headed indeed, though
<BJKlein> Well, I'd like to implement Mind's idea... and write an article for an online source...
<BJKlein> I've been in contact with Simon Smith at www.betterhumans.com
<BJKlein> that may be a good target for our first article submission....
<Utnapishtim> I think that most of the betterhumans audience are already pretty sold on life extension
<Utnapishtim> or not?
<BJKlein> Yes they are..
<Ziana> as with Extropy, but i'd take a look at it too if you want
<DavetheDuke> You would think so, I mean, it almost doesn't make sense not to be
<BJKlein> Extropy, yes Ziana I will
* caliban gives it up - he looks foward to reading the chat log tomorrow - and to getting a new keiboard as well
<Mind> lol
<Jeremiah> It may be good to get in touch with that action group natasha et al were forming
<BJKlein> heh, thanks caliban take care
<Utnapishtim> bye Caliban
<Jeremiah> Coordinate efforts, share ideas.
<BJKlein> Yes Jeremiah
*DavetheDuke* Hey, if you wanna check out the unfinished version of my little paper, I can send it through to you from AIM. It slightly has to do with immortality.
<Jeremiah> Unfortunately I don't remember the url
*DavetheDuke* It's more like a introduction to Singularitarian concepts
<caliban> farewell all -have a good and productive discussion on this important subject
<Mind> bye caliban
<Jeremiah> Oh, wait, it's pro-act.org or something, isn't it?
* Jeremiah strokes his long term memory
<BJKlein> sounds right
<MichaelA> How has that action group been doing?
<MichaelA> Didn't Mike Lorrey of the extropians list also form a group?
<BJKlein> If I remember right Natasha has recently come out of some kind of physical problem...
<BJKlein> I think I read that in the recent edition of Extropy
<BJKlein> I think Natasha's Org is alive just not that active
* Ziana nods
<BJKlein> Ziana knows all
<Ziana> she had cancer
<Ziana> thus was has not been having much time/energy to put into pro-act ;-)
<BJKlein> Ziana, do you put together the Extropy Journal?
<Ziana> bj- (re: set up journal) yep
<Ziana> among other things ;-)
<BJKlein> You'r amazing!
<Ziana> heh, ty
<BJKlein> Do you think Extropy would be interested in an article by a crazed immortalist?
<MichaelA> heh
<MichaelA> I would guess they might
<MichaelA> They accept a fairly wide range of articles from what I've seen
<BJKlein> I'm looking at their home page, seems to be a good mix
<nicelamer> 'mix' ;)
* BJKlein wishes he had the writing skills of a transhuman
<nicelamer> if you think i implied to mean that, you are wrong. :)
<nicelamer> i just like the word ;)
<nicelamer> :o) nothing more.
<Jeremiah> Ya know, BJ, you could always read some books on writing and acquire those skills. Twould be a mighty transhuman thing to do.
<Ziana> bj- if we didn't accept anything from crazed immortalists... or crazed anythings, for that matter... there wouldn't be much to read ;-)
<BJKlein> nicelamer, I was referring to my skills in general, heh
<BJKlein> lol
<Ziana> jeremiah- by definition, transhuman writing skills would be more than these human writers would know to write about in their books ;-)
<nicelamer> well than, doubt is the best gauge in realizing fears ;)
<BJKlein> Jeremiah, I think that is probably the best idea all night
<nicelamer> I know I have them, I just don't like to show them =p
<Jeremiah> Well then, he could acquire trans-bjklein writing skills ;D
<DavetheDuke> haha
<Ziana> jeremiah- there ya go! ;-)
<DavetheDuke> Does Apotheosisian or Apotheosisnist sound better?
* BJKlein wonders if there are any online resources to help struggeling wannabe transwriters
<DavetheDuke> Micheal's a excellent transwriter, ask him for a little advice or two
<Mind> I got better at writing by .....writing
<DavetheDuke> Me too MInd :)
<Mind> practice makes perfect
<MichaelA> I am not, I need to get waay better
<Utnapishtim> I think writing is like anything else
<Mind> I used to suck...then I started writing an article everyday for the web
<DavetheDuke> Okay, better than I am Micheal
<DavetheDuke> that's for sure :)
<nicelamer> practive makes you less delusional & less primitive, but never perfect :)
<Utnapishtim> just like an aptitude for mathematics or athletic ability a certain amount of talent is inborn
<Mind> After a year...readers demanded that I not take a day off
<nicelamer> err, practice :>
<Utnapishtim> but it is really about whether or not you develop it
<Ziana> lol nl
<Mind> I was flattered... I still don't think I am too good though
<Mind> practice practice
<Mind> not as good as most of the people at imminst
<Utnapishtim> Mind: Where dio your articles get posted?
<Mind> A tv website
<Mind> I used to write Science and weather articles
<nicelamer> the imagination doesn't see 'perfection' for it knows there are infinite ways towards what is perceived.. ;o)
<Mind> I don't think there are any available at this time
<Mind> on the web
* BJKlein thinks the internet is spawning a new breed of super writers
<nicelamer> anyway, i'm blabbering now :o|
<Mind> blabber blabber
<nicelamer> =o9
<Ziana> lol
<nicelamer> ~<:3
<Mind> I have a bunch archived at home though
* BJKlein feels i've missed the proverbial window of practice time during teenage years
<Mind> I started writing when I was 25
<BJKlein> Evidence MichaelA and DavetheDuke
<Mind> ...I mean really styarted writing
<Utnapishtim> I personally think that text to speech software will do A LOT to democratise the process of writing and liberate many people who have previously struggled to express their ideas on paper
<Mind> yes...this is likely
<DavetheDuke> Evidence? What?
<DavetheDuke> lol
<BJKlein> Utnapishtim,,, you know.. that's true..
<DavetheDuke> Nice Utna
<Keyliminator> Hi Kids!
<Jeremiah> I don't know, I write infinitely better than I speak.
<BJKlein> Welcome Back Keyliminator
<Utnapishtim> I think I do both about the same
<Utnapishtim> It really depends on the topic
<Jeremiah> I think it's due to the fact that I do much more communication on IRC, have been for years now.
<Utnapishtim> HOWEVER my mouth doesn't get writers block
<Jeremiah> I'm much more eloquent on IRC.
<nicelamer> 'eloquent' :>
<nicelamer> :p
<Jeremiah> ?
<nicelamer> don't mind my silly smileys, another word i have a taste for :>
<Jeremiah> Ah, yes, it's a good word.
<nicelamer> it is. :)
<Keyliminator> So if the topic is "proactive about life extension", how can ideas about the future of voice-to-text, fit in?
<Keyliminator> Help one make money to apply to being proactive?
<BJKlein> www.imminst.org/proactive
<BJKlein> some resources there Keyliminator, ideas needed
<Keyliminator> checking it out now
<Utnapishtim> I am anxious that efforts at promotion are not too incestuous. I really want to pull in people from outside the transhumanist community
<Mind> me too
<Keyliminator> Let's market to kids who are dying.
<Mind> what?
<Jeremiah> I'd like to think that voice communication is going to be obsoleted.
<Keyliminator> through search engine optimization strategies
<Utnapishtim> I feel "stay sexy and youthful" is a VERY good very mainstream selling point
<Utnapishtim> It appeals to everybody
<Keyliminator> how 'bout dying kids should know about cryonics
<MichaelA> But pushing that point too much makes us look way cranky
<BJKlein> goodness Keyliminator
<Utnapishtim> doesn't rub peoples religious sensibilities up the wrong way
<Keyliminator> its not just for ted williams
<Mind> good message....how do you get that into a eloquent bullet point though
<Mind> an eloquent bullet point
<Keyliminator> Cryonicists have always been woosies about appearing to be vultures.
<Keyliminator> But dying teenagers, who grew up on comics, would go for cryonics in a second.
<Utnapishtim> mind: You talking about my message or keyliminators?
<Keyliminator> If they were only given the choice
<Mind> you would think so
<Keyliminator> serious-last-wish.com?
<Keyliminator> like make-a-wish foundation
<Utnapishtim> As far as the cryonics thing is concerned I would like to see Cryonics tanks made to look more attractive
<Utnapishtim> Add some woodgrain on the outside
<BJKlein> lol
<Mind> I emailed ALCOR about that
<Keyliminator> a charity could start paying for some kid suspensions
<Utnapishtim> Make the storage place more traditional looking
<Utnapishtim> Mind can you forward me the email?
<Keyliminator> Stop lying to the children. Science offers real hope!
<Utnapishtim> did they reply?
<Keyliminator> Optional fake wax heads for traditional open casket funerals (for neuros)
<BJKlein> rofl
<Mind> I told them to try and make their press kit promotr life...instead of showing casket-like suspensions
<nicelamer> Utnapishtim - yes, & let's setup some of our favourite stuffed pets to make it look like a child's playground, i'm sure every child will want their parents to sign them up to cryonics =p
<Mind> Utna...I thought I sent you the reply???
<Utnapishtim> I am absolutely serious
<Utnapishtim> marketing matters
<MichaelA> for a while (long while) the credibility of cryonics is going to be entirely based on how close frozen-body-reviving technologies appear to be
<Keyliminator> me too, about the fake wax heads
<Keyliminator> some people want cryonics in private
<MichaelA> and the best candidate looks like nanotechnology
<Keyliminator> and their wife's families want and expect open casket
<Keyliminator> no one need know about your secret cryonics
<Mind> frozen body revival...is a lot farther off than the radical life -extension
<Utnapishtim> Who would lend more credibility to cryonics as a self confessed ALCOR memeber A MIT prof like Marvin Minsky or, for example Harrison Ford
<Keyliminator> I guess entire fake wax bodies for whole body suspensions
<Utnapishtim> Damn... some messages have not been getting through to me
<Keyliminator> No Griggmeister today?
<Mind> its ok...they said that they are waiting for "stars" to approach them
<Mind> At least I planted the idea in their head to offer a free suspension for an endorsement
<Utnapishtim> Mind: I think that is a poor strategy
<Utnapishtim> I really think they should make the place look nice
<Utnapishtim> make the storage area look "comfortable"
<Keyliminator> What's needed is a place where people can be frozen legally when and how they want it (pre-mortem, after a big party, etc.), and a cryonics outfit with a presence there.
<Keyliminator> Amsterdam
<Keyliminator> Maybe Oregon someday
<Keyliminator> Metlakatla, perhaps
<Mind> I guess cryonics is the only alternative for folks in the next 5 to 10 years
<nicelamer> :o(
<Utnapishtim> Mind: Yeah
<Keyliminator> and it will always be needed as backup for accidents
<Mind> right
<Keyliminator> or something akin to it
<BJKlein> yes
<Keyliminator> and kids are dying right now
<Keyliminator> The polls have been insane since the Ted Williams story
<Mind> what do you mean by insane
<Mind> ??
<Keyliminator> Every online poll has like 20-55 percent approving of cryonics
<Mind> NO KIDDING!!
<nicelamer> 'always be needed as backup for accidents' :D
<Keyliminator> which is amazing
<nicelamer> shit. happens. :>
<BJKlein> Damn, I must not be seeing the same polls
<Utnapishtim> Me neither
<Keyliminator> Check out the polls at newscientist.com, concerning their promotion
<Mind> I would think among the 20-55 percent would be a good number of potential transhumanists
<Utnapishtim> KEyliminator: Are these polls conducted by mainstream media outlets?
<BJKlein> I remember seeing something like less than 5 %
<Ziana> um... you must not have seen the latest ;-)
<Ziana> BBC News and CNN
<Keyliminator> no, these are just online polls
<Keyliminator> but still
<Utnapishtim> Keyliminator: On mainstream sites right?
<BJKlein> Ziana, are you talking to me
<Mind> What has been on CNN
<Keyliminator> yes
<Mind> what poercentage
<Ziana> bj- yep
<Ziana> one sec
<BJKlein> Jeez, Has the Singularity already happenend or something?
<Ziana> http://www.cnn.com/2...9/offer.freeze/ , results at http://www.cnn.com/P...61.content.html
<Utnapishtim> The SOCIAL stigma of cryonics is a far bigger obstacle in my view than the lack of scientific proof or the expense in my view
<BJKlein> the world is changing to fast for me
<Mind> :-)
<Ziana> that New Scientist contest is to thank for these...
<Ziana> bbc at http://newsvote.bbc....lth/2268181.stm
<BJKlein> not bad... Cryonics 37% vs 63% Hawaii
<Utnapishtim> Two bigname celebrities getting suspended and publically coming out in favour of cryonics will be the backbreaker
<BJKlein> Ehh, while were on the topic of backups...
<Keyliminator> The other amazing thing is how poorly Bobby Joe has been doing at fundraising for her Burn Daddy.org
<Utnapishtim> toward getting cryonics respectable
<Mind> yes...I would think acceptance of cryonics would be a great stepping stone into a more general knowledge of transhumanism
* Ziana nods
<BJKlein> I was trying to come to grips with copies again... and again...
<Keyliminator> Only raised like $2500 as of a couple days ago
<Keyliminator> with all that free publicity, even
<Ziana> yep
<BJKlein> can someone help me with the concept... uploading and copies
<BJKlein> what's your take on it
<Keyliminator> identity is a myth
* MichaelA agrees
<MichaelA> It's a "construct"
<Keyliminator> life and death are both religious terms
<Keyliminator> stuff happens
* BJKlein gets a chill
<Keyliminator> pleasure is possible
<Keyliminator> sentience is possible
<Mind> so once uploaded...we all lose our identity
<Mind> ??
<Keyliminator> will copies be allies?
<nicelamer> all energy reacts in definite ways, even as self dillusioned conscious energies like ourselves =p
<Keyliminator> we have no identity now, except definitionally
<MichaelA> So once uploaded, we don't lose our identity at all if we chose not to, but surely our definition of identity will change over time
<Keyliminator> I would like to define myself as an early unconnected node
<Ziana> nice...
<Keyliminator> massive copying, and mixing, later, with all who are willing to agree
<DavetheDuke> My personal definition of identity is not a static system
<Mind> is not the use of the word "myself kind-of contradictory keyliminator
<Keyliminator> i share more identity with those of you i eventually end up merging with, than I do the "me" of 8 years old
<Keyliminator> sorry, i still have to use the old Operating System
<Keyliminator> till I find critical mass of likely collaborators to pre-merge with
<Utnapishtim> Anybody got anything left to say about proactively promoting immortality?
<Keyliminator> and then experiment
<nicelamer> keyliminator - all energy interacts with eachother. information is in this energy, that is transfered
<nicelamer> =:)
<DavetheDuke> I don't think individuality will matter much after the Singularity - the only reason we're not merged already is because evolution is blind to creating vast superconsciousness
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<Keyliminator> Proactive, okay change the name of the institute
<Keyliminator> people don't get it
<Mind> a coherent pattern of energy can be defined as self...right?
<BJKlein> Suggestions?
<Utnapishtim> Longevity Institute?
<BJKlein> other than Immortality Institute
<Mind> LIFESPAN.ORG
<Keyliminator> Its kind of like what is known as "macho-flash-libertarianism" as opposed to Mary Ruwart's approach
<Utnapishtim> Mind I LIKE IT!
<DavetheDuke> Well, a coherent pattern of energy that creates internal subjectivity, Mind (I think ;))
<Mind> cool
<Keyliminator> Not sure
<Keyliminator> lifespan is not the point
<Mind> I know
<Keyliminator> pleasure, knowledge, growth
<Keyliminator> PNG
<Mind> but it is a nice comfortable "face"
<BJKlein> hmm takne...
<Mind> for the organization
<BJKlein> lifespan.org taken
<Utnapishtim> Remaining attractive
<nicelamer> ah, analogous to portable network gfx! :D
<Keyliminator> Save the Humans!
<nicelamer> yes, they both fit quite nicely.. i think :ox
<DavetheDuke> Maybe we can host different URLs, of course, like imminst.org and imminst.com, along with lifespan.com and lifespan.org
<Keyliminator> Save the Sentients
<Ziana> keylim- PKG ;-)
<Utnapishtim> remaining physically attractive is a BIG draw and one we should promote
<Keyliminator> ProSentience!
<BJKlein> I have imminst.com
<Mind> save the coherent patterns of energy
<DavetheDuke> A Manifesto for Sentience! :)
<DavetheDuke> Oh BJ
<Keyliminator> More-Fun-Forever.com
<Keyliminator> that might get you some dying kids
<DavetheDuke> foreternity.com
<Keyliminator> to come take a look
<Mind> yes...physically attractive...play on people's self-image
<Mind> a good selling point
<DavetheDuke> Everyone can be a supermodel nympho, just donate to us!
<Utnapishtim> Ideally I would like to stay away from all grandiose terms
<BJKlein> to me the concept of physical Immortality trumps all because I believe that life is all there is... thus immortality is the only option...
<Mind> We already have a lot of great info on nutrition...that will keep a person young
<Utnapishtim> Bo immortality.. no forever... no eternity... ec
<Utnapishtim> I deally I would like to stay away from all grandiose terms
<Keyliminator> I agree
<Utnapishtim> BJ: I agree with you
<DavetheDuke> Uh, a long long time? :)
<Utnapishtim> But whether I agree is not the point
<Keyliminator> Perhaps a single issue at a time, with specific websites spun off for them.
<Utnapishtim> the point is wrapping it up appealingly for the mainstream
<DavetheDuke> Personally, I don't know if immortality trumps all because what's beyond the Singularity could be completely counter-intuitive
<Keyliminator> CryoChoice-for-kids
<Utnapishtim> Ketliminatoor: Good idea
<Utnapishtim> I like the multiple websites thing
<DavetheDuke> me too
<Keyliminator> anti
<BJKlein> I dont' know.... would be much more work
<Mind> At lot of work to get it all set-up and linked together
<Keyliminator> After I make my billions, I will reward you.
<Keyliminator> :D
<BJKlein> I guess I don't have a passion for spin offs.. because I believe so fully in the Immortailty idea
<Keyliminator> immortality meaning no fixed limit, is something hardly anyone gets
<Utnapishtim> BJ: I beleive in your idea. I just think we need a trojan horse
<Mind> Imminst....definitely "says it all" in one small packege...but it is hard to sell it to the general public
<Keyliminator> I assume you realize that you will never be able to know "you" can live forever, if "you" don't even know if "identity" is just an illusion.
<BJKlein> Ben Bova thought it good enough to write a book about
<BJKlein> Keyliminator, I agree totally
<Utnapishtim> What percentage of the general public agree with Ben Bova?
<BJKlein> 2.3%
<Utnapishtim> Exactly
<Utnapishtim> I think we can get a bigger slice of the pie
<BJKlein> 2.3% * 6 billion
<DavetheDuke> Atheists and agnostics are excellent targets
<BJKlein> WHooho!
<Utnapishtim> And we can do that by staying out of the "crank camp" in the peoples perception
<Keyliminator> How about the "Let's not blow it now" Foundation
<DavetheDuke> hehe yeah key
<Keyliminator> science and technology are so close to some really good things!
<Mind> We should e-mail atheist groups
<Keyliminator> Let's not blow it now.
<BJKlein> www.TheDon'tDieBecauseItStinksOrg.Org
<Mind> :-)
<DavetheDuke> Yeah, and lets keep it case sensitve too BJ :-P
<Mind> WHY-DIE.org
<BJKlein> Herb Bowie..
<Utnapishtim> Is it a good idea to mention that we don't want to die at all?
<Keyliminator> The crazy Alaskan women are back, so I have to go now. Later, all.
<BJKlein> hypens are to hard me thinks
<Ziana> lol keylim, ta-ta
<Utnapishtim> or should we simply refer to indefinit extension?
<Mind> you are right
<BJKlein> Ok..Take Care Keyliminator
<DavetheDuke> by key
<Mind> see ya
<Mind> we sure have a good group tonight
<BJKlein> man oh man, yep
<DavetheDuke> deathmustdie.org
* BJKlein claps
<Ziana> yep
* DavetheDuke starts to break dance in his greatness
<Mind> :-)
<Utnapishtim> livelonger.org
<Utnapishtim> beatthereaper.com
<BJKlein> An impressive show of intellect tonight
<Utnapishtim> stoptheclock.or
<Mind> liveyounger.org
<DavetheDuke> youcoulddie.org
<BJKlein> www.nomorecheesysitenames.org
<Utnapishtim> permanentyouth.org
<Ziana> lol bj!
<DavetheDuke> hehehe
<Mind> lol
<Utnapishtim> lol
<Mind> its fun
<Mind> a real-time creative free-space
<DavetheDuke> I like deathmustdie ;)
<BJKlein> www.butmaybejustonemore.com
<BJKlein> www.neveroverthehill.org
<DavetheDuke> www.dontworryyouwonthavetodrinkprunejuice.org
<Mind> prune juice is good
<Mind> lol
<BJKlein> Ziana, do you know much about Max's book he's working on?
<DavetheDuke> lol
<Ziana> not really
*DavetheDuke* Hey, gimme your email address so you can skim my paper (you probably don't wanna read it all... it's about 14 pages now ;))
<BJKlein> bjk@imminst.org
<Mind> When is Kurzweil's new book due out?
<BJKlein> Singularity is Near?
<DavetheDuke> thank ya thank ya thank ya
<Mind> yes
<BJKlein> I think soon..
<DavetheDuke> Hopefully John Smart's stuff will be in that book, maybe?
<Mind> Smart sutff?
<Mind> who??
<DavetheDuke> lol
<DavetheDuke> His name really is John Smart
* BJKlein harr harr
<Mind> yes
<DavetheDuke> talk about automatic credentials
<Mind> what is he known for
<BJKlein> www.singularitywatch.com
<DavetheDuke> http://www.singularitywatch.com
<Mind> oh yeah...(duh!)
<Mind> brain fart
<BJKlein> pewww
<DavetheDuke> Now that's a stinking idea
<MichaelA> I don't think John Smart's thinking is going to be included in Kurzweil's latest book
<DavetheDuke> Loves being cheesy
<MichaelA> It's due out early in 2003
<MichaelA> Kurzweil's book will be primarily about Kurzweil's thinking, which isn't really bad at all
<DavetheDuke> nah
<DavetheDuke> I guess I'll pick it up
<Mind> I found "Age of Spiritual Machines" enjoyable even though...
<Mind> it didn't go far enough
<DavetheDuke> It was way too conservative - didn't consider Seed AI, which blows everything outta the warter
<Mind> He probably was able to get a larger audience
* DavetheDuke slaps himself for his typos
<MichaelA> What was?
<MichaelA> John Smart's thinking?
<DavetheDuke> No, Micheal, the Age of Spiritual Machines
<DavetheDuke> Yeah, Mind
<Mind> More people will read and enjoy "Age" because of its personal touch
<MichaelA> Seed AI specifically doesn't have any special water-blowing power outside of the fact that it is accessible and it is a way to transhumanity
<MichaelA> The idea of smarter minds in general blows everything out of the water
<MichaelA> Even the idea of an accelerated Moore's Law for accelerated entities does, but that was ignored in the Age of Spiritual Machines simply because people weren't talking about it enough yet and it didn't cross Kurzweil's radar
<MichaelA> He still doesn't talk about strong self-improvement, but at least he presents the idea of everything becoming completely different
<DavetheDuke> Yeah, Michael, I just be sayin' yo that if it can improve itself while thinking at near lightspeed, well you get the idea
<Mind> well...I must retire for the evening
<MichaelA> Well it's hard to transfer the significance of that statement for others
<Mind> Great chat tonight
<MichaelA> Bye bye Mind
<BJKlein> Ok..Take Care Mind
<Ziana> ta-ta
<DavetheDuke> BYEEEEEEEEEE
<Mind> lot of good ideas
<Utnapishtim> I'm out of here too!
<DavetheDuke> No! I'm going to miss you guys!
<BJKlein> cya Utnapishtim
<Utnapishtim> see you soon
<Mind> bye
<MichaelA> Bye Uth
<DavetheDuke> bye byez
<DavetheDuke> Gordon you missed all the fun
<Gordon> I'm going to keep missing the fun
<Gordon> I have to do my OS homework
<Gordon> but if it was great, send me the log please: redbird@rbisland.cx
<BJKlein> I will, It wass
<Gordon> but from 8 to 10 I was at a concert
<Gordon> so I don't feel too bad about missing out ;-)
<BJKlein> Gordon would you care to give me your take on copy and identiy
<Gordon> how do you mean
<BJKlein> uploading
<Gordon> if you make a copy of yourself, who is it?
<BJKlein> yepper
<BJKlein> I was trying to grasp the concept
<BJKlein> or have been trying....
<DavetheDuke> I have a argument about how uploading is you, in my paper, BJ
<Gordon> it was you
<Gordon> you share a common past
<DavetheDuke> in section 2.1.1.1
<DavetheDuke> :)
<BJKlein> cool
<Gordon> however, they two diverge
<DavetheDuke> Yeah, the best way, I think Gordon for definition purposes, is to slowly change a biological brain to a non-biological through Moravec's conceived method
<DavetheDuke> using nanotechnology, bla bla
<Gordon> that just makes you feel better about the transition
<Gordon> I have no problem killing myself if my mind is uploaded
<DavetheDuke> I know Gordon. Honestly I don't have much of a problem of 'myself' dieing at all, heh heh
<DavetheDuke> I'd be nervous about it, but it doesn't really bother me once I know the major hump of the Singularity is overcome
<MichaelA> It's not "killing yourself" because "yourself" is the information pattern
<Gordon> well, pick whatever words you like
<Gordon> my body will cease to function as will my brain
<Gordon> my mind, however, will be happy happy over in another substrate
<Ziana> lol
<Ziana> dancing with the fluffy bunnies ;-) ;-)
<BJKlein> MichaelA, you agree with what Key said before
<DavetheDuke> Yeah, I guess if the subjective experience can be completely replicated, just supported under substrate, don't matter :)
<BJKlein> the matter doesnt matter just the information
<DavetheDuke> yah
<Gordon> having a gradual transition may be a good idea for the TG, though
<DavetheDuke> TG?
*MichaelA* do you have the URL for the old, big "Singularity Discussion Forums" image that used to be at www.bjklein.com/sing?
<Gordon> since I think many people will not be comfortable with hard uploading like we are
<MichaelA> I do
<Gordon> transition guide
<DavetheDuke> oh
<Gordon> apparently there is a law of hot bitches (according to what my roommates just said)
<Gordon> "where there's one hot bitch there's more hot bitches"
<DavetheDuke> Well, I always thought female dogs went in heat at different times :)
<DavetheDuke> Just read this: psycho7370: i didn't watch the report, they just reported that they'd report it later
* Ziana will be off now...
<BJKlein> Tanks Ziana
<Ziana> ta-ta
<DavetheDuke> TA TA
<Ziana> yw, bj ;-)
<BJKlein> Yeah, But What If We Just Can’t Get There Yo?
<BJKlein> heh
<Gordon> ?
<BJKlein> sorry inside joke
<DavetheDuke> "But it's hard to stay mad, when there's so much beauty in the world. Sometimes I feel like I'm seeing it all at once, and it's too much, my heart fills up like a balloon that's about to burst ...and then I remember to relax, and stop trying to hold on to it, and then it flows through me like rain and I can't feel anything but gratitude for every single moment of my stupid little life." - Kevin Spacey, "American Bea
<DavetheDuke> hehehe
<BJKlein> good movie
<DavetheDuke> Yeah, and I loved the end solilquy to it
<DavetheDuke> argh!
<DavetheDuke> I'm going to shoot my fingers for all the typos I'm making
<BJKlein> we encourage typos here
<DavetheDuke> y
<BJKlein> give the mad scientist aura
<DavetheDuke> o
<DavetheDuke> i c
<DavetheDuke> :)
<Gordon> did you send that log anyone (haven't gotten it yet)?
<DavetheDuke>




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