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THe ultimate collaboration - Most effective nootropic


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Poll: Most effective nootropic - by majority vote (165 member(s) have cast votes)

What nootropic do you find the most effective?

  1. Piracetam (60 votes [23.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.26%

  2. DMAE (8 votes [3.10%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.10%

  3. Centrophenoxine (7 votes [2.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.71%

  4. Hydergine (10 votes [3.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.88%

  5. Alpha-GPC (19 votes [7.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.36%

  6. Choline (6 votes [2.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.33%

  7. Aniracetam (22 votes [8.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.53%

  8. ALCAR (33 votes [12.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.79%

  9. Citicoline (23 votes [8.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.91%

  10. Choline bitartrate (4 votes [1.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.55%

  11. Choline citrate (3 votes [1.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.16%

  12. Galantamine (7 votes [2.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.71%

  13. Huperzine A (10 votes [3.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.88%

  14. Lecithin (5 votes [1.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.94%

  15. None (41 votes [15.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.89%

What nootropic do you find the most effective? continued

  1. Etiracetam (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Nefiracetam (4 votes [2.13%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.13%

  3. Oxiracetam (25 votes [13.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.30%

  4. Pramiracetam (27 votes [14.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.36%

  5. Vitamin B5 (7 votes [3.72%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.72%

  6. Donepezil (4 votes [2.13%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.13%

  7. Mucuna pruriens (2 votes [1.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.06%

  8. Tyrosine (18 votes [9.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.57%

  9. Lazabemide (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  10. L-dopa (2 votes [1.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.06%

  11. Phenylalanine (5 votes [2.66%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.66%

  12. Selegiline (22 votes [11.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.70%

  13. Tolcapone (1 votes [0.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.53%

  14. Yohimbe (2 votes [1.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.06%

  15. None (69 votes [36.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.70%

What nootropic do you find the most effective? continued

  1. Griffonia simplicifolia (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Tryptophan (4 votes [1.97%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.97%

  3. LSD (20 votes [9.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.85%

  4. 2C-T-7 (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. Ashwagandha (8 votes [3.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.94%

  6. Inositol (9 votes [4.43%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.43%

  7. Kava kava (3 votes [1.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.48%

  8. Lemon Balm (3 votes [1.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.48%

  9. Passion Flower (2 votes [0.99%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.99%

  10. Rhodiola Rosea (23 votes [11.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.33%

  11. St John's Wort (9 votes [4.43%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.43%

  12. Ginseng (16 votes [7.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.88%

  13. Tea (29 votes [14.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  14. Theanine (14 votes [6.90%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.90%

  15. None (63 votes [31.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.03%

What nootropic do you find the most effective? continued

  1. Vasopressin (4 votes [1.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.79%

  2. Vitis vinifera (1 votes [0.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.45%

  3. SSRIs (7 votes [3.12%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.12%

  4. Coenzyme q-10 (10 votes [4.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.46%

  5. Creatine (11 votes [4.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.91%

  6. Lipoic acid (4 votes [1.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.79%

  7. Pyritinol (8 votes [3.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.57%

  8. Vinpocetine (10 votes [4.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.46%

  9. Prazosin (2 votes [0.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.89%

  10. Adrafinil (6 votes [2.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.68%

  11. Caffeine (51 votes [22.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.77%

  12. Coffee (31 votes [13.84%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.84%

  13. Nicergoline (3 votes [1.34%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.34%

  14. Nicotine (27 votes [12.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.05%

  15. None (49 votes [21.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.88%

What nootropic do you find the most effective? continu

  1. Methylphenidate (21 votes [9.72%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.72%

  2. Dextroamphetamine (22 votes [10.19%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.19%

  3. Modafinil (45 votes [20.83%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.83%

  4. Phenibut (8 votes [3.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.70%

  5. Theophylline (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. Amphetamine (16 votes [7.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.41%

  7. Carphedon (2 votes [0.93%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.93%

  8. Brahmi (12 votes [5.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.56%

  9. Cannabis (22 votes [10.19%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.19%

  10. Xanthinol Nicotinate (2 votes [0.93%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.93%

  11. Idebenone (7 votes [3.24%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.24%

  12. Rasagiline (4 votes [1.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.85%

  13. Fipexide (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  14. Pemoline (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  15. Other (55 votes [25.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.46%

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#1 DrHealth

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 03:53 PM


This poll is dependant upon people answering it. The more people that vote the more conclusive the poll will be. So please find the nootropic, that in your opinion worked best for you and click it :) . You can click more than one if need be.

Wishing you good mental heath, Jonathan Rose

Edited by Jonathan ROse, 25 August 2008 - 04:39 PM.


#2 tjcbs

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 03:57 PM

Weed is by far the most effective for me.

Edited by tjcbs, 25 August 2008 - 03:58 PM.

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#3 DrHealth

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 04:11 PM

How to vote. For example say cannabis was you favourite nootropic, you'd vote none,none,none,none,cannabis.
Eventually the nones & others can be excluded from the poll.
:) Keep voting

#4 dr_chaos

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 04:31 PM

I think you should have included the SSRI's. I gladly use them for adjusting my emotional state. From the things on the list I picked modafinil for not interfering with my normal functioning, while increasing my capabilities.

#5 DrHealth

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 04:40 PM

I've changed Chromium to SSRIs. Thanks for voting

#6 Prometheus

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 11:45 PM

Problem with the poll is that it acts like traditional pharmaceutical companies that do not take pharmacogenomics into consideration. Nootropics have varied efficacy based on individual pharmacogenetic and genoneurotransmission profile. Not meaning to rain on your parade but its a fact of life that we all respond differently to noo's and that's because of genetic variation. Even so, I voted for my personal preference galantamine ;)

#7 mystery

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 01:42 AM

Very thorough poll. Though mygenus' comments are true, this will still provide a starting point for newbs pointing toward which noots have the highest response rate. We don't have very good tools to asses "individual pharmacogenetic and genoneurotransmission profile" in mygenus' words, so this is not too important yet. I can imagine in a few hundred years we may have the technology for this, and our approach of trial and error will seem rudimentary. We are in the stone age of nootropics.

BTW kava owns ;)

#8 Advanc3d

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 02:54 AM

believe it or not, when ever i consume LSD it puts me in a very nootopic state. it makes me think about every detail, analyse every thought and it gives me the most creative feeling, i think i done LSD about 40 times, very good stuff

Edited by Advanc3d, 26 August 2008 - 02:56 AM.

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#9 tjcbs

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 03:36 AM

believe it or not, when ever i consume LSD it puts me in a very nootopic state. it makes me think about every detail, analyse every thought and it gives me the most creative feeling, i think i done LSD about 40 times, very good stuff

I've read that LSD has destructive effects on the brain, and that heavy users experience a deterioration of personality. I would have tried it, were it not for that. And I've never heard this corroborated by actual users though, unlike MDMA where this is very common knowledge. Have you experienced of any long term negative effects you attribute to LSD?

#10 Advanc3d

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 03:52 AM

Have you experienced of any long term negative effects you attribute to LSD?

honestly, not at all
i find LSD a pretty safe drug compared to other illicit drugs

#11 jackinbox

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 04:01 AM

believe it or not, when ever i consume LSD it puts me in a very nootopic state. it makes me think about every detail, analyse every thought and it gives me the most creative feeling, i think i done LSD about 40 times, very good stuff

I've read that LSD has destructive effects on the brain, and that heavy users experience a deterioration of personality. I would have tried it, were it not for that. And I've never heard this corroborated by actual users though, unlike MDMA where this is very common knowledge. Have you experienced of any long term negative effects you attribute to LSD?


As far as I know, there is no known toxicity for LSD. It's not going to fry your brain's cells. That doesn't mean that it's perfectly safe. A dose as "small" as 10 milligrams could kill you (psychoactive dosage is about 20 to 1000 micrograms). The risk is more psychological. The experience might come as a shock for some people, especially if it's a bad trip. It might feel so real that you might have flashback later in your life.

Disclaimer: I never used LSD and don't promote it use.

#12 brotherx

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 11:56 AM

Hi,

I double post this message because I think it is so important to be aware that Kava is not a non toxic nootropic.

Kava (Piper methysticum) can be very toxic to the liver - and there is no safe dose of kava! You might want to stay away from it!

Below you'll find an extract from wiki:


"Liver damage incidents and regulation

In 2001 concerns were raised about the safety of commercial kava products. [13] There have been allegations of severe liver toxicity, including liver failure in some people who had used dietary supplements containing kava extract (but not in anyone who had drunk kava the traditional way). Out of the 50 people worldwide taking kava pills and extracts that have had some type of problem, almost all of them had been mixing them with alcohol and pills that could have effects on the liver.[13] The fact that different kava strains have slightly different chemical composition made testing for toxicity difficult as well.

The possibility of liver damage consequently prompted action of many regulatory agencies in European countries where the legal precautionary principle so mandated. In the UK, the Medicines for Human Use (Kava-kava) (Prohibition) Order 2002 prohibits the sale, supply or import of most derivative medicinal products. Kava is banned in Switzerland, France and The Netherlands[14]. The health agency of Canada issued a stop-sale order for kava in 2002. But legislation in 2004 made the legal status of kava uncertain. The United States CDC has released a report[15] expressing reservations about the use of kava and its possibly adverse side effects (specifically severe liver toxicity), as has the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).[16] The Australian Therapeutic Goods Administration has recommended that no more than 250 mg of kavalactones be taken in a 24 hour period.[17] According to the Medicines Control Agency in the U.K., there is no safe dose of kava, as there is no way to predict which individuals would have adverse reactions.[18]"
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kava

And several extracts from Pubmed:

"Hepatocellular toxicity of kava leaf and root extracts.
Lüde S, Török M, Dieterle S, Jäggi R, Büter KB, Krähenbühl S.

Division of Clinical Pharmacology & Toxicology, Department of Research, University Hospital, CH-4031 Basel, Switzerland.

Kava extracts are used widely for different purposes and were thought to be safe. Recently, several cases of hepatotoxicity have been published. To explore possible mechanisms of kava hepatotoxicity, we prepared and analyzed three different kava extracts (a methanolic and an acetonic root and a methanolic leaf extract), and investigated their toxicity on HepG2 cells and isolated rat liver mitochondria. All three extracts showed cytotoxicity starting at a concentration of 50 microg/ml (lactate dehydrogenase leakage) or 1 microg/ml (MTT test). The mitochondrial membrane potential was decreased (root extracts starting at 50 microg/ml) and the respiratory chain inhibited and uncoupled (root extracts) or only uncoupled (leaf extract) at 150 microg/ml, and mitochondrial beta-oxidation was inhibited by all extracts starting at 100 microg/ml. The ratio oxidized to reduced glutathione was increased in HepG2 cells, whereas the cellular ATP content was maintained. Induction of apoptosis was demonstrated by all extracts at a concentration of 150 microg/ml. These results indicate that the kava extracts are toxic to mitochondria, leading to inhibition of the respiratory chain, increased ROS production, a decrease in the mitochondrial membrane potential and eventually to apoptosis of exposed cells. In predisposed patients, mitochondrial toxicity of kava extract may explain hepatic adverse reactions of this drug.

PMID: 18055189 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"

"Toxicity of kava kava.
Fu PP, Xia Q, Guo L, Yu H, Chan PC.

National Center for Toxicological Research, Jefferson, Arkansas 72079, USA. peter.fu@fda.hhs.gov

Kava is a traditional beverage of various Pacific Basin countries. Kava has been introduced into the mainstream U.S. market principally as an anti-anxiety preparation. The effects of the long-term consumption of kava have not been documented adequately. Preliminary studies suggest possible serious organ system effects. The potential carcinogenicity of kava and its principal constituents are unknown. As such, kava extract was nominated for the chronic tumorigenicity bioassay conducted by the National Toxicology Program (NTP). At present toxicological evaluation of kava extract is being conducted by the NTP. The present review focuses on the recent findings on kava toxicity and the mechanisms by which kava induces hepatotoxicity."


Cheers

Alex

Very thorough poll. Though mygenus' comments are true, this will still provide a starting point for newbs pointing toward which noots have the highest response rate. We don't have very good tools to asses "individual pharmacogenetic and genoneurotransmission profile" in mygenus' words, so this is not too important yet. I can imagine in a few hundred years we may have the technology for this, and our approach of trial and error will seem rudimentary. We are in the stone age of nootropics.

BTW kava owns ;)



#13 SearchHorizon

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 12:16 PM

For many of these nootrpics, there is no way to objectively measure effectiveness. That the subject "feels" smarter or more intelligent is not good enough.

When I use something like protein powder, I can go to the gym and see that I get better strength output.

#14 DrHealth

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 08:07 PM

Yes, I can understand what is being said.Though I disagree that effectiveness cannot be measured, for example a dose of modafinil has a definite feeling of enhanced cognition (alertness,flow of thoughts, increased focus etc), whilst a dose of DMEA has no immediate cognitive enhancing effects.

Just I wanted to find a trend, I was hoping for more votes :(

Edited by Jonathan ROse, 26 August 2008 - 08:20 PM.


#15 DrHealth

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 09:27 AM

http://spreadsheets....=1&output=image

#16 spacey

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 08:04 AM

Lol, looks like nicotine is the way to go. Guess I'll go down to the chemist's and buy a pack of patches..

#17 lucidver

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 09:17 AM

Lol, looks like nicotine is the way to go. Guess I'll go down to the chemist's and buy a pack of patches..


Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

I quit smoking a few years ago. Ive never actually done any research on nicotine as a nootropic, but, while I was a proponent of smoking, I would tell people that "smoking is a thinking man's muse"... Apparently, there was some truth to that.

Also, it would seem that nicotine patches are really really cheap on ebay. 42 7mg patches? Cut those in half and you've got like almost 3 months supply... for $13... 3.5 mg a day would probably be good for a non smoker during peak work time. Slap it on at 10am, take it off at 8pm, something along those lines.

It's interesting that the list is mostly stimulants. I'm not sure how cannabis or LSD made it on the list, but, then again, I am not so sure I understand the definition of nootropic completely.

Is it necessary to feel something like a stimulant effect for a nootropic to be considered effective? Something like Idebenone probably would never be felt, correct?

I guess I am wondering if, as a whole, theres a bit of a possible misunderstanding, either in myself or wherever, that taking a nootropic somehow requires noticeable increased focus to be considered effective?

Edited by lucidver, 28 August 2008 - 09:20 AM.


#18 DrHealth

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 11:39 AM

I would strongly reconsider taking nicotine as a nootropic. Even via trans dermal route of admin (i.e patches) there a lot of negatives, too many in my opinion that they out shadow any short term cognitive enhancing effects. I've listed some below.



Nicotine Negatives

. Firstly for anyone who hasn't studied any basic pharmacology, nicotine is classified as a extremely deadly poison, its in the same league as cyanide.

. Nicotine has a very low LD50 (lethal dosage) of 0.5-1.0 mg/kg of body weight. So just 40–60 mg can be a lethal dosage for an adult.

. Nicotine is a vasoconstrictor (constricts blood vessels)

. Nicotine increases blood pressure.

. Nicotine causes the body to release its stores of fat and cholesterol into the blood.

. Nicotine increases the risk of blood clots significantly as a result.

. Nicotine impedes apoptosis (apoptosis is the method by which the body destroys unwanted cells - that otherwise could become cancerous)

. Nicotine stimulates blood vessels to grow. Cancers need blood vessels to grow and spread, and if nicotine actually makes that easier, then tumour growth might be easier too.



I was going to try the patches ages ago but after learning about nicotine I decided against it. Hope this is of some relevance.
Wishing you good mental health, Jonathan Rose.

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#19 tjcbs

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 03:36 PM

Doesn't the serious tolerance problems with nicotine prevent its use as a nootropic?

Personally I've never liked nicotine. I can feel the blood vessels in my brain constricting, which is a very unpleasant sensation.

#20 DrHealth

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 08:51 PM

I don't believe that trans dermal nicotine is that addictive, well in comparison to smoking its not.

Jonathan Rose

#21 tjcbs

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 08:43 AM

Its interesting that there are many much-hyped nootropics which have received no love at all.

#22 mystery

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 03:26 AM

Hi,

I double post this message because I think it is so important to be aware that Kava is not a non toxic nootropic.

Kava (Piper methysticum) can be very toxic to the liver - and there is no safe dose of kava! You might want to stay away from it!

Below you'll find an extract from wiki:


"Liver damage incidents and regulation

In 2001 concerns were raised about the safety of commercial kava products. [13] There have been allegations of severe liver toxicity, including liver failure in some people who had used dietary supplements containing kava extract (but not in anyone who had drunk kava the traditional way). Out of the 50 people worldwide taking kava pills and extracts that have had some type of problem, almost all of them had been mixing them with alcohol and pills that could have effects on the liver.[13] The fact that different kava strains have slightly different chemical composition made testing for toxicity difficult as well.

The possibility of liver damage consequently prompted action of many regulatory agencies in European countries where the legal precautionary principle so mandated. In the UK, the Medicines for Human Use (Kava-kava) (Prohibition) Order 2002 prohibits the sale, supply or import of most derivative medicinal products. Kava is banned in Switzerland, France and The Netherlands[14]. The health agency of Canada issued a stop-sale order for kava in 2002. But legislation in 2004 made the legal status of kava uncertain. The United States CDC has released a report[15] expressing reservations about the use of kava and its possibly adverse side effects (specifically severe liver toxicity), as has the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).[16] The Australian Therapeutic Goods Administration has recommended that no more than 250 mg of kavalactones be taken in a 24 hour period.[17] According to the Medicines Control Agency in the U.K., there is no safe dose of kava, as there is no way to predict which individuals would have adverse reactions.[18]"
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kava

And several extracts from Pubmed:

"Hepatocellular toxicity of kava leaf and root extracts.
Lüde S, Török M, Dieterle S, Jäggi R, Büter KB, Krähenbühl S.

Division of Clinical Pharmacology & Toxicology, Department of Research, University Hospital, CH-4031 Basel, Switzerland.

Kava extracts are used widely for different purposes and were thought to be safe. Recently, several cases of hepatotoxicity have been published. To explore possible mechanisms of kava hepatotoxicity, we prepared and analyzed three different kava extracts (a methanolic and an acetonic root and a methanolic leaf extract), and investigated their toxicity on HepG2 cells and isolated rat liver mitochondria. All three extracts showed cytotoxicity starting at a concentration of 50 microg/ml (lactate dehydrogenase leakage) or 1 microg/ml (MTT test). The mitochondrial membrane potential was decreased (root extracts starting at 50 microg/ml) and the respiratory chain inhibited and uncoupled (root extracts) or only uncoupled (leaf extract) at 150 microg/ml, and mitochondrial beta-oxidation was inhibited by all extracts starting at 100 microg/ml. The ratio oxidized to reduced glutathione was increased in HepG2 cells, whereas the cellular ATP content was maintained. Induction of apoptosis was demonstrated by all extracts at a concentration of 150 microg/ml. These results indicate that the kava extracts are toxic to mitochondria, leading to inhibition of the respiratory chain, increased ROS production, a decrease in the mitochondrial membrane potential and eventually to apoptosis of exposed cells. In predisposed patients, mitochondrial toxicity of kava extract may explain hepatic adverse reactions of this drug.

PMID: 18055189 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"

"Toxicity of kava kava.
Fu PP, Xia Q, Guo L, Yu H, Chan PC.

National Center for Toxicological Research, Jefferson, Arkansas 72079, USA. peter.fu@fda.hhs.gov

Kava is a traditional beverage of various Pacific Basin countries. Kava has been introduced into the mainstream U.S. market principally as an anti-anxiety preparation. The effects of the long-term consumption of kava have not been documented adequately. Preliminary studies suggest possible serious organ system effects. The potential carcinogenicity of kava and its principal constituents are unknown. As such, kava extract was nominated for the chronic tumorigenicity bioassay conducted by the National Toxicology Program (NTP). At present toxicological evaluation of kava extract is being conducted by the NTP. The present review focuses on the recent findings on kava toxicity and the mechanisms by which kava induces hepatotoxicity."


Cheers

Alex

Very thorough poll. Though mygenus' comments are true, this will still provide a starting point for newbs pointing toward which noots have the highest response rate. We don't have very good tools to asses "individual pharmacogenetic and genoneurotransmission profile" in mygenus' words, so this is not too important yet. I can imagine in a few hundred years we may have the technology for this, and our approach of trial and error will seem rudimentary. We are in the stone age of nootropics.

BTW kava owns :)



Thanks for the reminder. I have been fairly concerned about kava toxicity. It is important to consider that:
1. People in the pacific islands consume lots of kava with no safety concerns
2. There is evidence suggestive that the root is ok, but the stems and leaves contain toxic chemicals
-Supplement manufacturers appeared to be using these parts of the plant, especially for pills
3. There are a lot of other important factors discussed here: Wikipedia Kava 9. Side effects and safety

That being said, I use it occasionally, and in a small amount. I have to assume that my kava has stem and leaf material in it, even though my suppliers deny this. There's really no other way to be 100% sure of your kava, unless you know someone in the pacific islands to send you some, or go there yourself to get it. I don't see why they wouldn't use the root for themselves, and export the stem and leaf material off to make more $$$. I guess, maybe I could grow a kava plant in my apartment :) . Though actually, that may not be such a bad idea...

By occasionally, I mean about once every week or two. I get a unique subtle focus improving effect from just about 10-15 drops of tincture or 1/2 teaspoon dried root powder once or twice a day. It's like I have to try to focus to be able to focus better, contrary to dextroamphetamine where my brain is like rewired temporarily with better focus. But, I know it's there, because my performance is remarkably improved, and I know my neural activity is changed in subtle ways, especially if I really try and figure things out or to pay attention.

Unfortunately, the beneficial effect can only last a day or two, and maybe three if I haven't used kava for a very long time. Then, I have an almost 100% tolerance to the good effect, and taking more kava may even hurt focus along with making me edgy. If I wait a few days, then I can get a good effect again. Optimally, I need to wait longer then a week.

I haven't found anything like this. I've tried so many different drugs/supps/noots/herbs/ect. It's like kava briefly targets the source of my problem. I'll take the risk of using kava given my results. It is very helpful at times.

If someone was using large doses of kava frequently, then it would definitely be advisable to try other supplements to achieve their desired goal. As noted, I'm using small doses very occasionally, and I just can't find anything with an effect like kava.

Edited by mystery, 03 September 2008 - 03:28 AM.

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#23 mystery

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 03:35 AM

Just wanted to add, the poll is kind of skewed. I thought we should only vote once, and didn't know to vote multiple times, nore was there any voting limit. I would have selected dextroamphetamine, caffeine, lipoic acid, ALCAR, and some other B vitamins if they were present. Where is Thiamine?

#24 Ben

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 10:13 AM

I don't believe that trans dermal nicotine is that addictive, well in comparison to smoking its not.

Jonathan Rose


It is probably not as addictive as smoking. It's still an extremely addictive drug.

#25 tjcbs

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 05:06 AM

Cannabis scored higher than everything but modafinil and piracetam, and I guess caffiene too, since coffee and caffiene should probably be combined. Very interesting, I thought I was relatively unique in weed increasing my cognitive abilities. I am very confident that I would score higher on an IQ test when high, based on numerous objective measures of performance. The most striking example is chess, where based on my performance against rated opponents I would guess I am about 1450 sober and 1700 high.

I am wondering if marijuana might be a "true" nootropic. One feature which it shares with nootropics, as opposed to every other drug of abuse I can think of, is a very pronounced 'U' shaped dose response curve. Another is an absence of long term negative effects, unless insane amounts are smoked on a daily basis.

#26 brotherx

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 03:14 PM

You seem to be an expert an kava.
I know it's two-edged swort. My decision was that the cons outweigh the pros.
In Europe there are many countries where it is forbidden by law to sell it.

Be careful with it!

Cheers

Hi,

I double post this message because I think it is so important to be aware that Kava is not a non toxic nootropic.

Kava (Piper methysticum) can be very toxic to the liver - and there is no safe dose of kava! You might want to stay away from it!

Below you'll find an extract from wiki:


"Liver damage incidents and regulation

In 2001 concerns were raised about the safety of commercial kava products. [13] There have been allegations of severe liver toxicity, including liver failure in some people who had used dietary supplements containing kava extract (but not in anyone who had drunk kava the traditional way). Out of the 50 people worldwide taking kava pills and extracts that have had some type of problem, almost all of them had been mixing them with alcohol and pills that could have effects on the liver.[13] The fact that different kava strains have slightly different chemical composition made testing for toxicity difficult as well.

The possibility of liver damage consequently prompted action of many regulatory agencies in European countries where the legal precautionary principle so mandated. In the UK, the Medicines for Human Use (Kava-kava) (Prohibition) Order 2002 prohibits the sale, supply or import of most derivative medicinal products. Kava is banned in Switzerland, France and The Netherlands[14]. The health agency of Canada issued a stop-sale order for kava in 2002. But legislation in 2004 made the legal status of kava uncertain. The United States CDC has released a report[15] expressing reservations about the use of kava and its possibly adverse side effects (specifically severe liver toxicity), as has the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).[16] The Australian Therapeutic Goods Administration has recommended that no more than 250 mg of kavalactones be taken in a 24 hour period.[17] According to the Medicines Control Agency in the U.K., there is no safe dose of kava, as there is no way to predict which individuals would have adverse reactions.[18]"
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kava

And several extracts from Pubmed:

"Hepatocellular toxicity of kava leaf and root extracts.
Lüde S, Török M, Dieterle S, Jäggi R, Büter KB, Krähenbühl S.

Division of Clinical Pharmacology & Toxicology, Department of Research, University Hospital, CH-4031 Basel, Switzerland.

Kava extracts are used widely for different purposes and were thought to be safe. Recently, several cases of hepatotoxicity have been published. To explore possible mechanisms of kava hepatotoxicity, we prepared and analyzed three different kava extracts (a methanolic and an acetonic root and a methanolic leaf extract), and investigated their toxicity on HepG2 cells and isolated rat liver mitochondria. All three extracts showed cytotoxicity starting at a concentration of 50 microg/ml (lactate dehydrogenase leakage) or 1 microg/ml (MTT test). The mitochondrial membrane potential was decreased (root extracts starting at 50 microg/ml) and the respiratory chain inhibited and uncoupled (root extracts) or only uncoupled (leaf extract) at 150 microg/ml, and mitochondrial beta-oxidation was inhibited by all extracts starting at 100 microg/ml. The ratio oxidized to reduced glutathione was increased in HepG2 cells, whereas the cellular ATP content was maintained. Induction of apoptosis was demonstrated by all extracts at a concentration of 150 microg/ml. These results indicate that the kava extracts are toxic to mitochondria, leading to inhibition of the respiratory chain, increased ROS production, a decrease in the mitochondrial membrane potential and eventually to apoptosis of exposed cells. In predisposed patients, mitochondrial toxicity of kava extract may explain hepatic adverse reactions of this drug.

PMID: 18055189 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"

"Toxicity of kava kava.
Fu PP, Xia Q, Guo L, Yu H, Chan PC.

National Center for Toxicological Research, Jefferson, Arkansas 72079, USA. peter.fu@fda.hhs.gov

Kava is a traditional beverage of various Pacific Basin countries. Kava has been introduced into the mainstream U.S. market principally as an anti-anxiety preparation. The effects of the long-term consumption of kava have not been documented adequately. Preliminary studies suggest possible serious organ system effects. The potential carcinogenicity of kava and its principal constituents are unknown. As such, kava extract was nominated for the chronic tumorigenicity bioassay conducted by the National Toxicology Program (NTP). At present toxicological evaluation of kava extract is being conducted by the NTP. The present review focuses on the recent findings on kava toxicity and the mechanisms by which kava induces hepatotoxicity."


Cheers

Alex

Very thorough poll. Though mygenus' comments are true, this will still provide a starting point for newbs pointing toward which noots have the highest response rate. We don't have very good tools to asses "individual pharmacogenetic and genoneurotransmission profile" in mygenus' words, so this is not too important yet. I can imagine in a few hundred years we may have the technology for this, and our approach of trial and error will seem rudimentary. We are in the stone age of nootropics.

BTW kava owns :-D



Thanks for the reminder. I have been fairly concerned about kava toxicity. It is important to consider that:
1. People in the pacific islands consume lots of kava with no safety concerns
2. There is evidence suggestive that the root is ok, but the stems and leaves contain toxic chemicals
-Supplement manufacturers appeared to be using these parts of the plant, especially for pills
3. There are a lot of other important factors discussed here: Wikipedia Kava 9. Side effects and safety

That being said, I use it occasionally, and in a small amount. I have to assume that my kava has stem and leaf material in it, even though my suppliers deny this. There's really no other way to be 100% sure of your kava, unless you know someone in the pacific islands to send you some, or go there yourself to get it. I don't see why they wouldn't use the root for themselves, and export the stem and leaf material off to make more $$$. I guess, maybe I could grow a kava plant in my apartment :) . Though actually, that may not be such a bad idea...

By occasionally, I mean about once every week or two. I get a unique subtle focus improving effect from just about 10-15 drops of tincture or 1/2 teaspoon dried root powder once or twice a day. It's like I have to try to focus to be able to focus better, contrary to dextroamphetamine where my brain is like rewired temporarily with better focus. But, I know it's there, because my performance is remarkably improved, and I know my neural activity is changed in subtle ways, especially if I really try and figure things out or to pay attention.

Unfortunately, the beneficial effect can only last a day or two, and maybe three if I haven't used kava for a very long time. Then, I have an almost 100% tolerance to the good effect, and taking more kava may even hurt focus along with making me edgy. If I wait a few days, then I can get a good effect again. Optimally, I need to wait longer then a week.

I haven't found anything like this. I've tried so many different drugs/supps/noots/herbs/ect. It's like kava briefly targets the source of my problem. I'll take the risk of using kava given my results. It is very helpful at times.

If someone was using large doses of kava frequently, then it would definitely be advisable to try other supplements to achieve their desired goal. As noted, I'm using small doses very occasionally, and I just can't find anything with an effect like kava.



#27 Bodhi

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 11:28 PM

There is no correct answer....It is strange to think that one substance is more nootropic than any other, it depends, on timing, your genetics, and many other factors,

My answer though if I had to answer would be a rotating schedule of methamphetamine, cannabis, ketamine, ethanol, psylocibin, and codeine..oh and lets not forget caffeine. In an ideal world no one would become "addicted" to drugs because there are too many interesting nootropics to get stuck in a rut taking one over and over again. Well except for maybe ketamine.....or psylocibin...or well you get the idea. Why else would you want to live forever....???

#28 bgwithadd

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 05:18 PM

Cannabis scored higher than everything but modafinil and piracetam, and I guess caffiene too, since coffee and caffiene should probably be combined. Very interesting, I thought I was relatively unique in weed increasing my cognitive abilities. I am very confident that I would score higher on an IQ test when high, based on numerous objective measures of performance. The most striking example is chess, where based on my performance against rated opponents I would guess I am about 1450 sober and 1700 high.

I am wondering if marijuana might be a "true" nootropic. One feature which it shares with nootropics, as opposed to every other drug of abuse I can think of, is a very pronounced 'U' shaped dose response curve. Another is an absence of long term negative effects, unless insane amounts are smoked on a daily basis.


If that's true, I'm thinking it says a lot more about you than about cannabis. You probably have some serious problems with anxiety ot other psychiatric issues if that's the case. I'm saying that in an informational way. You'd likely do much better on something like guanfacine than cannabis. It eliminates the negative effect of anxiety on the brain.

#29 Stan100

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 08:25 PM

Guys, regarding the kava toxicity:

the tests that show kava's toxicity are done using the extract. Most extracts are made along with the leaf of the kava plant, which is not traditionally valued for anything on the islands. Buy shredded or chopped root and make yourself a grog sometime, it's good stuff. The biggest side effect of longer time use is dry skin, which goes away after stopping for a week.

However, I've never noticed any nootropic effects from it. Definitely relaxing/anti anxiety though, makes you sleepy!

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#30 Evolutionary

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 05:25 AM

I would strongly reconsider taking nicotine as a nootropic. Even via trans dermal route of admin (i.e patches) there a lot of negatives, too many in my opinion that they out shadow any short term cognitive enhancing effects. I've listed some below.



Nicotine Negatives

. Firstly for anyone who hasn't studied any basic pharmacology, nicotine is classified as a extremely deadly poison, its in the same league as cyanide.

. Nicotine has a very low LD50 (lethal dosage) of 0.5-1.0 mg/kg of body weight. So just 40–60 mg can be a lethal dosage for an adult.

. Nicotine is a vasoconstrictor (constricts blood vessels)

. Nicotine increases blood pressure.

. Nicotine causes the body to release its stores of fat and cholesterol into the blood.

. Nicotine increases the risk of blood clots significantly as a result.

. Nicotine impedes apoptosis (apoptosis is the method by which the body destroys unwanted cells - that otherwise could become cancerous)

. Nicotine stimulates blood vessels to grow. Cancers need blood vessels to grow and spread, and if nicotine actually makes that easier, then tumour growth might be easier too.



I was going to try the patches ages ago but after learning about nicotine I decided against it. Hope this is of some relevance.
Wishing you good mental health, Jonathan Rose.


I was thinking about trying the patches after someone suggested them to me, but now I'm never going to use them. Thanks for this post!




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