55 replies to this topic

[Crepulance]

Hey gang, okay I don't know how to layman-ize this. Could someone please tell me if this article is saying Res can cause or if it prevents breast cancer.... http://www.nature.co...l/6600983a.html It may be obvious, but it's late, so I can't really tell what I'm reading.


Cheers,
Crep

Edited by cnorwood, 29 September 2008 - 05:54 PM.
Expanded title to be more informational

[maxwatt]

Hey gang, okay I don't know how to layman-ize this. Could someone please tell me if this article is saying Res can cause or if it prevents breast cancer.... http://www.nature.co...l/6600983a.html It may be obvious, but it's late, so I can't really tell what I'm reading.


Cheers,
Crep

It says nothing about what happens outside of a test tube. They found some increase in gene expression in genes associated with breast cancer, but the proteins apparently were not affected. Other studies have found resveratrol inhibits nfKappa-B, which would be expected to reduce breast cancer tumors. Until there are actual studies in human patients, we don't know.

[Crepulance]

Okay let's focus on what they found in the test tube. I still need some more laymanization here. What does "increase in gene expression in genes associated with breast cancer" Does that mean, in the test tube, it cause cancer?


Crep

Hey gang, okay I don't know how to layman-ize this. Could someone please tell me if this article is saying Res can cause or if it prevents breast cancer.... http://www.nature.co...l/6600983a.html It may be obvious, but it's late, so I can't really tell what I'm reading.


Cheers,
Crep

It says nothing about what happens outside of a test tube. They found some increase in gene expression in genes associated with breast cancer, but the proteins apparently were not affected. Other studies have found resveratrol inhibits nfKappa-B, which would be expected to reduce breast cancer tumors. Until there are actual studies in human patients, we don't know.

[Crepulance]

So is this like the GIANT WHITE ELEPHANT in the room? No one wants to talk about its possible relation to breast cancer? There are a lot of intelligent minds on these posts, most of whom comment on most everything, yet only one person commented on this fairly large issue?? Are people just wanting to avoid this because there is truth to it and they are afraid to taint all the positive traits of res? Well don't let this be an inconvenient truth. If someone has something to show the contrary of this finding, or any other info please speak up.


Crep

[Anthony_Loera]

That was a 2003 study.
Can you please do a Google scholar search for something more recent? Below is a range of 2006-2008 resveratrol and breast cancer studies:

http://scholar.googl...s...p;hl=en&lr=

How many of these are positive Crep?

A

[Crepulance]

Hey Anthony good lookin' out, usually there's a slew of response very quickly from people, worried me why no one was too quick to respond. I've seen a few of these and will look through the others, but just because res has positive effects in prevention, that doesn't mean it can't simultaneously have a negative component as well. And 2003 wasn't that long ago. The study found what it found, is there a study which directly disputes those findings? Not to be repetitive, but showing a slew of studies and their positive effect, does not directly address the negative findings of this study. Something can trigger AND combat at the same time. That may be in one of those links you sent me, and I'll look through, but let me know in case you respond quicker than I can find it. Until then, am still slightly concerned. Those results can't just be dismissed, they occurred, and 100 positive studies can't erase them without direct dispute to the exact case.


Crep

That was a 2003 study.
Can you please do a Google scholar search for something more recent? Below is a range of 2006-2008 resveratrol and breast cancer studies:

http://scholar.googl...s...p;hl=en&lr=

How many of these are positive Crep?

A

[Anthony_Loera]

Crep,

Below is my opinion on the matter. I advise that folks should consult their doctor regarding any issue they may have, as my opinion below does not count in anyway as medical advice. So, Crep go talk to you doc, if you have breast cancer...

Now for my opinion... you are hanging on to a thought about resveratrol causing breast cancer. The study stated that resveratrol increased the expressions of BRCA1 and BRCA2 mRNAs, it doesn't say it causes breast cancer. It states it increased expression of these "susceptibility genes", meaning these genes (in a mutated state usually by inheritance) have been shown to pre-dispose women to breast cancer.

==============================================================
However, estrogen appears to have a similar effect on these genes yet only a fraction of women get breast cancer:
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8895509


These two genes are considered "tumor suppressor genes" by one study, again I believe when they are not mutated:
http://cancerres.aac...ract/63/20/6607


It appears that only mutated BRCA1 and BRCA2 can pre-dispose women to issues as mentioned here.
http://www3.intersci...l...=1&SRETRY=0

==============================================================

So it certainly is a bit confusing. So here is my take as a complete non-scientist reading through these studies...

Resveratrol appears to help keep issues at bay with healthy non-mutated BRCA1 and BRCA2 by increasing their expression much like estrogen, but if these two genes are already mutated, then Resveratrol and estrogen are not very helpful regarding the genes in question. Again once the genes are mutated, you are predisposed to breast cancer regardless of resveratrol intake.

However if you are taking resveratrol, it may continue to help as it may have other methods or pathways to deal with cancerous cells.

If a cell is already cancerous, resveratrol helps through the cAMP/Kinase-A system:
This study shows that resveratrol is an agonist for the cAMP/Kinase-A system, which is a documented proapoptotic and cell cycle suppressor in breast cancer cells:
http://carcin.oxford...stract/24/5/869

==============================================================

So what does this all mean?

Although just my opinion, it appears that BRCA1 and BRCA2 are good genes when they have not been mutated. Resveratrol appears to increase their expression, much like estrogen does, to protect a person.

But once these genes are mutated through an unknown method or inheritance, resveratrol does not know the difference, so it may continue to increase the expression of the genes (this expression does not cause cancer). However, at the same time it increases the expression, it also binds to the cAMP/Kinase-A system, which helps has been shown to deal with immortalized cells.

Again as mentioned by Max, the study you mention was done in a test tube, and may be very different in a living animal or person. This maybe a non-issue, but if it isn't, it appears res still helps in the end against breast cancer due to the cAMP/Kinase-A system it binds to.

==============================================================

I have to say, Resveratrol remains an incredible molecule, with complex functions. And In my book, an incredibly positive molecule for health. However, If I have my facts backwards or incorrect, please correct me as sometimes it may happen. (Hedge?)

Again, the resveratrol we are talking about was research grade in the studies... not a supplement, as supplement products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 20 October 2008 - 03:17 PM.

[Crepulance]

So, should someone who has had breast cancer not use Resveratrol? How about someone with a family history of it?


Crep

Crep,

Below is my opinion on the matter. I advise that folks should consult their doctor regarding any issue they may have, as my opinion below does not count in anyway as medical advice. So, Crep go talk to you doc, if you have breast cancer...

Now for my opinion... you are hanging on to a thought about resveratrol causing breast cancer. The study stated that resveratrol increased the expressions of BRCA1 and BRCA2 mRNAs, it doesn't say it causes breast cancer. It states it increased expression of these "susceptibility genes", meaning these genes (in a mutated state usually by inheritance) have been shown to pre-dispose women to breast cancer.

==============================================================
However, estrogen appears to have a similar effect on these genes yet only a fraction of women get breast cancer:
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8895509


These two genes are considered "tumor suppressor genes" by one study, again I believe when they are not mutated:
http://cancerres.aac...ract/63/20/6607


It appears that only mutated BRCA1 and BRCA2 can pre-dispose women to issues as mentioned here.
http://www3.intersci...l...=1&SRETRY=0

==============================================================

So it certainly is a bit confusing. So here is my take as a complete non-scientist reading through these studies...

Resveratrol appears to help keep issues at bay with healthy non-mutated BRCA1 and BRCA2 by increasing their expression much like estrogen, but if these two genes are already mutated, then Resveratrol and estrogen are not very helpful regarding the genes in question. Again once the genes are mutated, you are predisposed to breast cancer regardless of resveratrol intake.

However if you are taking resveratrol, it may continue to help as it may have other methods or pathways to deal with cancerous cells.

If a cell is already cancerous, resveratrol helps through the cAMP/Kinase-A system:
This study shows that resveratrol is an agonist for the cAMP/Kinase-A system, which is a documented proapoptotic and cell cycle suppressor in breast cancer cells:
http://carcin.oxford...stract/24/5/869

==============================================================

So what does this all mean?

Although just my opinion, it appears that BRCA1 and BRCA2 are good genes when they have not been mutated. Resveratrol appears to increase their expression, much like estrogen does, to protect a person.

But once these genes are mutated through an unknown method or inheritance, resveratrol does not know the difference, so it may continue to increase the expression of the genes (this expression does not cause cancer). However, at the same time it increases the expression, it also binds to the cAMP/Kinase-A system, which helps has been shown to deal with immortalized cells.

Again as mentioned by Max, the study you mention was done in a test tube, and may be very different in a living animal or person. This maybe a non-issue, but if it isn't, it appears res still helps in the end against breast cancer due to the cAMP/Kinase-A system it binds to.

==============================================================

I have to say, Resveratrol remains an incredible molecule, with complex functions. And In my book, an incredibly positive molecule for health. However, If I have my facts backwards or incorrect, please correct me as sometimes it may happen. (Hedge?)

Again, the resveratrol we are talking about was research grade in the studies... not a supplement, as supplement products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

A

[Anthony_Loera]

Hmm...

I think the answers are found in my last post to this...
However there are still many unknowns, since everyone is different. So you need to talk to your doc Crep.

A

[FunkOdyssey]

The suggestion to talk to your doctor is correct for a variety of reasons -- that said, it is laughable to think of the average doctor having any clue about this issue, unless they spend their free time doing hardcore research. If nothing else, their response should be entertaining.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 06 November 2008 - 05:14 PM.

[maxwatt]

The suggestion to talk to your doctor is correct for a variety of reasons -- that said, it is laughable to think of the average doctor having any clue about this issue, unless they spend their free time doing hardcore research. If nothing else, their response should be entertaining.

Typically a doctor will say not to take something when its effect is unknown, unless they consider it to function as a harmless placebo.

[Anthony_Loera]

Yes, I know Funk and Max...

but requesting direct medical advice for a life/death issue in a public forum is not really something to do when there are different circumstances that can produce different results, and no human study has determined solid evidence. At the most, what you will get is information on the details regarding resveratrol, and how it appears to work based on studies, so that you can make your own decisions.

As mentioned in my post before:
If I have my facts backwards or incorrect, please correct me as sometimes it may happen. I don't mind being corrected, specially about such an issue.

The 2 questions Crep poses are the following:
1- Should someone who has had breast cancer not use Resveratrol?
2- How about someone with a family history of it?

I believe that people asking these questions may already have mutated BRCA1 and BRCA2, as one already had Breast Cancer and the other may have these because of inheritance. People would need to talk to their docs regardless of what is answered here on the board.

If the doc is with you, you then need to make a decision if you believe regular herbal resveratrol may function in a human in much the same manner (since no real human studies are around) to verify the animal or test tube studies themselves:

You either....

Need to determine if resveratrol will hinder because it is dumb molecule, and will still increase the expression of the mutated BRCA1 and BRCA2 (remember this does not cause cancer itself).

OR....

determine if resveratrol will help because it is an agonist for the cAMP/Kinase-A system, which is a documented proapoptotic and cell cycle suppressor in breast cancer cells:
http://carcin.oxford...stract/24/5/869


Regardless of the decision, you need to talk to your doc and get him to watch over you regardless of the decision you take, because of possible inheritance issues or remission, and not really because of resveratrol questions. Many docs may not read any of the studies at all, so they may not know about resveratrol research at all.

Maybe you should print the study out, and talk it over with your doctor. If he actually reads it, he just may surprise you and give you some great medical advice.

Cheers
A

[niner]

I would be flabbergasted if your doctor (or any of ours) had a clue about resveratrol. At least if you go through a medical professional, you could get genetic testing and counseling regarding your BRCA1 & 2 status.

However, nearly all in vitro (test tube, i.e., not being administered to a live animal) studies of resveratrol are irrelevant, as the concentrations of resveratrol used are usually much higher than it is possible to achieve in human plasma. I suspect that resveratrol would do more good than harm. Missminni cured her dog's otherwise terminal breast cancer with high dose resveratrol.

[VP.]

There is a new study in Molecular Cell Journal that shows resveratrol may help fight or even prevent BRCA-1 associated breast cancer.

Summary
Germline mutations of BRCA1 predispose women to breast and ovarian cancers. However, the downstream mediators of BRCA1 function in tumor suppression remain elusive. We found that human BRCA1-associated breast cancers have lower levels of SIRT1 than their normal controls. We further demonstrated that mammary tumors from Brca1 mutant mice have low levels of Sirt1 and high levels of Survivin, which is reversed by induced expression of Brca1. BRCA1 binds to the SIRT1 promoter and increases SIRT1 expression, which in turn inhibits Survivin by changing the epigenetic modification of histone H3. Absence of SIRT1 blocks the regulation of Survivin by BRCA1. Furthermore, we demonstrated that activation of Sirt1 and inhibition of Survivin expression by resveratrol elicit a more profound inhibitory effect on Brca1 mutant cancer cells than on Brca1-wild-type cancer cells both in vitro and in vivo. These findings suggest that resveratrol treatment serves as an excellent strategy for targeted therapy for BRCA1-associated breast cancer.

http://www.cell.com/...2765(08)00656-4

Dr. Deng and colleagues were interested in investigating the relationship among BRCA1, SIRT1 and Survivin. SIRT1 is a protein and histone deacetylase involved in numerous critical cell processes including metabolism, DNA repair and programmed cell death, known as apoptosis. Although SIRT1 has been implicated in tumorigenesis, no concrete role in cancer initiation or progression has been identified. Survivin is an apoptosis inhibitor that is dramatically elevated in many types of tumors. Research has suggested that Survivin may serve to maintain the tumor and promote growth.

The researchers found that BRCA1 functioned as a tumor suppressor by maintaining SIRT1 expression, which in turn inhibited Survivin expression. When BRCA1 was not functioning properly, SIRT levels decreased and Survivin levels increased, allowing BRCA1-deficient cells to overcome apoptosis and undergo malignant transformation.

They went on to show that the compound resveratrol strongly inhibited BRCA1-mutant tumor growth in cultured cells and animal models. Resveratrol is an important constituent of traditional Japanese and Chinese medicine that has recently been shown to inhibit some types of cancer by inducing apoptosis with very little associated toxicity. In the current paper, resveratrol enhanced SIRT1 activity, this leading to reduced Survivin expression and subsequent apoptosis of BRCA1 deficient cancer cells.

These findings identify SIRT1 and Survivin as downstream mediators of BRCA1-regulated tumor suppression and identify resveratrol as a potent inhibitor of BRCA1-mutant cancer cells. "Resveratrol may serve as an excellent compound for targeted therapy for BRCA1 associated breast cancers," says Dr. Deng.

http://www.futurepun...ves/005671.html

The evidence that resveratrol increases breast cancer risk is growing weaker. FWIW I talked to my doctor about resveratrol and he had no clue what it was. He is a sharp, relatively young doctor who has had letters published in the New England Journal of Medicine.

Edited by velopismo, 09 November 2008 - 01:30 AM.

[E.T.]

I think the best bet is to find a physician who is certified by the American Acadamy of Anti Aging Medicine: http://www.worldhealth.net/ They should know about resveratrol.

[Crepulance]

I am just glad that this topic is getting some light. It is dangerous to have thousands of posts praising this product and seemingly few pointing out what could be a potentially massive and deadly side effect. To mitigate something like this is purely and simply crazy. I personally have been researching the hell out of this (obviously less than most of you, but far more than the general public) and I only happened to accidentally STUMBLE upon someone mentioning that study that was done dealing with breast cancer. If I hadn't I may have never known. And g-d forbid I had breast cancer, it could have potentially been a death sentence. When something this good comes out people are quick to hide or shy away from any possible devious aspects, but I think it's very important this is put in the forefront for all to know about. Not only could it potentially save a lot of lives, but it can also bring about an awareness. I know these numbers are coming out of nothing factual but I would have to assume 80% or more of your average resveratrol customers most of whom aren't as proficient in the intricacies as those on these boards, are probably unaware of this potential side effect. And a percentage of them I'm sure have or may have had breast cancer or are suseptible to it. So to not even give them the knowledge, so they can make the choice on their own is cruel and wrong. I know the information isn't hidden, and it's out there if they look, but not everyone is as dilligent, and I'm glad this is getting attention. And no Anthony, I don't have breast cancer, but I have to look out for the women in my life.

PS. I think the only doctor that could have something useful to say would be an anti aging physician. I agree with you, most doctors have never heard of res, or have vaguely. But even if you bring them paperwork, all they can do is read the paperwork same as we can. A study is a study, it's not really meant to be interpreted, it's just a presentation of facts and data. It's not really the type of decision you leave up to a hunch an ill-informed doctor makes after reading a study you printed out for them. Just saying, when there's money to be made, it's easy to sweep something like this under the closet, marlboro, camels.... Let's just keep our eyes, ears and mouths open on this one and make sure when you tell family and friends about how great res is, also mention this.

Crep

I think the best bet is to find a physician who is certified by the American Acadamy of Anti Aging Medicine: http://www.worldhealth.net/ They should know about resveratrol.

[Anthony_Loera]

Crep,

you again are mistakenly asserting that resveratrol causes breast cancer.
I think this has been explained in detail that this study does not say that at all.

A

[Crepulance]

Anthony,

I'm not asserting that it causes breast cancer at all, I'm asserting what is asserted in the study which is that it has the potential to expedite it, which when dealing with a disease which is all about timing, how quickly it is found, treated, etc., taking a supplement that has the potential to exponentially increase the growth rate is almost as bad if not worse than causing it in the first place.


Crep

Crep,

you again are mistakenly asserting that resveratrol causes breast cancer.
I think this has been explained in detail that this study does not say that at all.

A

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi Crep,

I think this article may say it better, as well as suggest a more recent study that was mentioned by velopismo:

http://www.scienceda...81009143655.htm

The researchers found that BRCA1 functioned as a tumor suppressor by maintaining SIRT1 expression, which in turn inhibited Survivin expression. When BRCA1 was not functioning properly, SIRT levels decreased and Survivin levels increased, allowing BRCA1-deficient cells to overcome apoptosis and undergo malignant transformation.

They went on to show that the compound resveratrol strongly inhibited BRCA1-mutant tumor growth in cultured cells and animal models. Resveratrol is an important constituent of traditional Japanese and Chinese medicine that has recently been shown to inhibit some types of cancer by inducing apoptosis with very little associated toxicity. In the current paper, resveratrol enhanced SIRT1 activity, this leading to reduced Survivin expression and subsequent apoptosis of BRCA1 deficient cancer cells.

These findings identify SIRT1 and Survivin as downstream mediators of BRCA1-regulated tumor suppression and identify resveratrol as a potent inhibitor of BRCA1-mutant cancer cells. "Resveratrol may serve as an excellent compound for targeted therapy for BRCA1 associated breast cancers," says Dr. Deng

Dr. Chu-Xia Deng from the Genetics of Development and Diseases Branch at the National Institutes of Health.

Study: Interplay among BRCA1, SIRT1, and Survivin during BRCA1-Associated Tumorigenesis.
Molecular Cell, Volume 32, Issue 1, 11-20, 10 October 2008

Abstract:

Germline mutations of BRCA1 predispose women to breast and ovarian cancers. However, the downstream mediators of BRCA1 function in tumor suppression remain elusive. We found that human BRCA1-associated breast cancers have lower levels of SIRT1 than their normal controls. We further demonstrated that mammary tumors from Brca1 mutant mice have low levels of Sirt1 and high levels of Survivin, which is reversed by induced expression of Brca1. BRCA1 binds to the SIRT1 promoter and increases SIRT1 expression, which in turn inhibits Survivin by changing the epigenetic modification of histone H3. Absence of SIRT1 blocks the regulation of Survivin by BRCA1. Furthermore, we demonstrated that activation of Sirt1 and inhibition of Survivin expression by resveratrol elicit a more profound inhibitory effect on Brca1 mutant cancer cells than on Brca1-wild-type cancer cells both in vitro and in vivo. These findings suggest that resveratrol treatment serves as an excellent strategy for targeted therapy for BRCA1-associated breast cancer.

taking a supplement that has the potential to exponentially increase the growth rate is almost as bad if not worse than causing it in the first place.
-Crep

So basically, I don't think what you are saying is correct Crep. Resveratrol doesn't appear to increase the issue, and may even help according to Dr. Deng.


A

[jenq]

Unless I'm happy to pay AU$5000 for private clinic testing or I can come up with a living relative with breast/ovarian cancer, I won't know my gene status to make an informed decision. I had considered committing to the use of Resveratrol but I admit I'm hesitant.

Here's the (edited) response from the gene testing clinic (attached to the women's hospital) where I recently queried them about BRCA1 & 2 testing for myself.

You requested genetic testing for BRCA1 and BRCA2 gene changes.

Currently we are only able to offer diagnostic genetic testing to clients who have fulfilled certain criteria – those criteria being:

- having a relative who is alive who has been or is affected with breast or ovarian cancer.

- the provision of validation (pathology reports or death certificate) of their family history

- meeting the international Manchester BRCA scoring system (in terms of the number and ages of affected relatives)

Based on family history (unvalidated) you would fall into the "moderate" risk category for breast and ovarian cancer. I advised you that without a living member of the family who had been diagnosed with cancer, we were not able to offer testing. Even with an affected relative alive we would be required to obtain validation prior to testing as anecdotally the family does not yet meet Manchester criteria for testing.

We discussed genetic testing and I explained that in view of the complexity of the test, it does take a long time to obtain a result (between 6-12 months). For approximately 8 out of 10 families who are able to proceed with testing, no gene fault is identified and the result is called "inconclusive" as the current technology cannot identify all gene changes. In this situation, people are advised that they may still be at increased risk of developing breast and/or ovarian cancer and that they should continue with regular surveillance. Because genetic testing is such a lengthy process we do not advise waiting for test results without surveillance or without treating symptoms.

You were very disappointed to hear you could not have a genetic test and I provided you with contact details of the private company that offers faster testing for a fee, with less stringent selection criteria.

As you are aware, cancer is a common illness in our community. There is a 1 in 11 (9%) population risk for every woman in Australia of developing breast cancer in her lifetime. The lifetime population risk of developing ovarian cancer is approximately 1 in 100. However, before any cancer can develop several changes need to have occurred within the genes of the cell. These changes could be likened to a series of levels that are stepped up, with each step bringing the cell closer to becoming cancerous. These changes are usually not inherited but simply accumulate over the course of a lifetime. It is thought that 5% of breast/ovarian cancer is due to an inherited form of the disease. This predisposition is often due to a single altered gene, which means that the cell is already one step up the ladder.

We discussed that inheritance of a predisposition to cancer occurs in an autosomal dominant fashion. Autosomal means that the gene is not carried on the sex chromosomes and therefore can be carried by either males or females. Dominant means that a person with a genetic change has a one in two (1: 2) or 50/50 chance of passing it on to their children. That is, when having children a person can pass on either the gene with the change or the standard copy of the gene.

There have been two genes identified (BRCA1 and BRCA2) which are known to cause hereditary breast and ovarian cancer. These genes are sometimes associated with early onset of cancer, often before the age of 50. Another condition Hereditary Non-Polyposis Colorectal Cancer (HNPCC) can be associated with bowel cancer and gynaecological cancers, including ovarian cancer in women.

In some families it is possible to offer a genetic test, to try to detect the genetic change predisposing to cancer. Unfortunately this is not possible in your family, as testing needs to begin with a living affected individual and there is no such candidate in your family.

The testing itself is a simple blood test. However, as we discussed, it can be a lengthy process and results are not guaranteed. However, if a genetic change can be identified in a family, it means predictive testing is then available to unaffected family members to see whether or not they have inherited the predisposition to cancer.

As the genes associated with a predisposition to breast cancer are also associated with ovarian cancer, people in the high risk category have the option to have screening of their ovaries, which is done by annual transvaginal ultrasound, plus a blood test called CA125 in postmenopausal women. However there is no data which conclusively demonstrate that surveillance has a favourable impact on either the stage at diagnosis or the mortality from ovarian cancer in women at risk.

Anthony, as an aside, the articles you quote from state:

Resveratrol may serve as an excellent compound...

and

These findings suggest...

Also, your own take on this issue:

Resveratrol doesn't appear to increase the issue, and may even help according to Dr. Deng.

It doesn't inspire my confidence.

[Anthony_Loera]

Jennifer,

the words "May", "suggest", "doesn't appear", "may even" in the posts are there for a purpose. The fact is that (just like the common cold) there is no scientifically verified 100% cure for cancer. Even our best medical doctors give us survival rates based on statistics, not based on any cure they may know about or have developed.

From a medical standpoint. A cure simply does not exist for cancer, or for a typical cold. However treatments do exist, and treatments may increase survival rates. Again I said the word "May" in that last sentence simply because treatments will not work for 100% of folks. You need to get yourself mammograms routinely and consult your doctor if you feel this is an issue.

Let's think about the time line regarding studies:

The one Crep brings up is a 2003 study.

The recent velopismo mentioned is from October 2008 (last month!) and it is from Dr. Deng of the Genetics of Development and Diseases Branch at the National Institutes of Health. In it he finds that the compound resveratrol strongly inhibited BRCA1-mutant tumor growth in cultured cells and animal models.

Why is the time line important? I believe it shows a confirmation that resveratrol can be developed by drug makers to be helpful for this issue, while in 2003 it was uncertain. Again, I do not make any claims that resveratrol in any dietary or herbal supplement are intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. FDA rules prevent any supplement company from making those claims, as doing so would have the FDA classify the supplement as a drug. Thats the simple fact regarding supplements in the United States. I am not sure how the rules differ in other parts of the world, but I wanted to clear this up regarding the language used by everyone.

The simple fact is that until human trials are done by a drug company, or research university, Resveratrol remains a molecule that may or may not have benefits people are looking for.


Sorry if is not the concrete answer you are looking for, but if the decision to take resveratrol makes you anxious, do yourself a simple favor.... do not take it until you are 100% sure. Simply wait for better research, it's just that easy.

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 13 November 2008 - 03:43 PM.

[100YearsToGo]

My 2c.

Resv taken as a supplement will result in low resv serum levels. In the range of 2 to 5 uM.

These low levels mimics estrogen.

"These data indicate that estrogen and low concentrations of resveratrol may promote breast cancer metastasis, whereas high concentrations of resveratrol may prevent breast cancer metastasis."

http://www.pubmedcen...i?artid=1813930

I wouldn't take it if I were a female.

[Anthony_Loera]

Thats a 2007 study, while the recent positive one is a 2008 study...

A

[Crepulance]

Listen, wether the study was from 2007 or 2003, it was still a study. It's not as though the scientists were inept a year ago and didn't find what they found. That's also not to say the one in 2008 didn't either. But it does say that there is discrepency. And discrepency with such a life threatening issue is not a good thing or acceptable. I read the articles anthony, and I do hope there is legitimacy there, but until there has been long term exposure trials, the fact that there have been ANY studies to suggest the opposite is enough for any woman to take serious concern. Listen, I tout resveratrol to everyone, and am a huge advocate of it, so for me to deny women the possible immense positive side effects is quite the task. However, with that said, if g-d forbid just one woman got breast cancer, or should I say catalyzed breast cancer because of lack of knowledge of the side effects of res, that's something no one on these boards should be able to live with in clear conscience. It's our responsibility to let people know, give them all the information, and let them decide. I do hope in the end that you are right, as there are many women in my life who I would like to be taking res, however, for me right now, the findings are way too nebulous to risk something so precious. On another note, these findings you posted are all about BRCA 1 what about BRCA 2? There was no mention of that.



Crep

[100YearsToGo]

Thats a 2007 study, while the recent positive one is a 2008 study...

A

Anthony,

The study I posted indicated that low concentration of resv (5 uM) has another effect than higher concentration (50uM).
While higher concentrations are clearly of benefit for breast cancer treatment lower concentrations are not.

It is not clear from the 2008 study you posted what concentrations were used. If you have the complete paper please post it.

Regards,

100YTG

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi 100YTG,

you are correct to ask me about the concentrations required... I pulled the complete paper, and it appears 40uM was used in vitro, while it appears 5 ug or 10 ug was used in vivo.
It appears to be in line with your study regarding a high concentration. I have to say that there is alot of info in this study. Can you take a look 100YTG?

Consistently, we found
resveratrol dramatically reduced the capability of Brca1 mutant
tumor cells to form colonies in soft agar, causing about a 5-fold
decrease in colony size (Figure 3A) and number (Figure 3B) compared
with untreated controls. Such an inhibitory effect was not
obvious for a Brca1 wild-type cell line tested under identical conditions
(Figures 3C and 3D). Our data further indicated that resveratrol
(40 mM) induced a much higher incidence of apoptosis
in Brca1 mutant tumor cells (69) than the Brca1 wild-type cells
(Neu) (data not shown).

In the first set, we pretreated
the nude mice with resveratrol for 10 days before mouse Brca1
mutant tumor cells were implanted. After the implantation, the
treatment continued daily until the tumors were collected. We
demonstrated that the treatment with either 5 ug or 10 ug of resveratrol
significantly delayed tumor initiation and growth

This one was interesting as well:

cells to form tumors in nude mice (Figure 2A).
During the time course, Sirt1-transfected tumor cells had much
more difficulty to initiate tumor formation. At harvest, tumor weight
from the GFP-transfected group (228 mg) was, on average,
4.56-fold of the weight from the Sirt1-overexpressed group

Anthony

[100YearsToGo]

Hi 100YTG,

you are correct to ask me about the concentrations required... I pulled the complete paper, and it appears 40uM was used in vitro, while it appears 5 ug or 10 ug was used in vivo.
It appears to be in line with your study regarding a high concentration. I have to say that there is alot of info in this study. Can you take a look 100YTG?

Consistently, we found
resveratrol dramatically reduced the capability of Brca1 mutant
tumor cells to form colonies in soft agar, causing about a 5-fold
decrease in colony size (Figure 3A) and number (Figure 3B) compared
with untreated controls. Such an inhibitory effect was not
obvious for a Brca1 wild-type cell line tested under identical conditions
(Figures 3C and 3D). Our data further indicated that resveratrol
(40 mM) induced a much higher incidence of apoptosis
in Brca1 mutant tumor cells (69) than the Brca1 wild-type cells
(Neu) (data not shown).

In the first set, we pretreated
the nude mice with resveratrol for 10 days before mouse Brca1
mutant tumor cells were implanted. After the implantation, the
treatment continued daily until the tumors were collected. We
demonstrated that the treatment with either 5 ug or 10 ug of resveratrol
significantly delayed tumor initiation and growth

This one was interesting as well:

cells to form tumors in nude mice (Figure 2A).
During the time course, Sirt1-transfected tumor cells had much
more difficulty to initiate tumor formation. At harvest, tumor weight
from the GFP-transfected group (228 mg) was, on average,
4.56-fold of the weight from the Sirt1-overexpressed group

Anthony

After reading the complete 2008 study...ok, ok I skimmed a bit, I find that the studies (2008 vs 2007) don't contradict each other.
There were no low dosage used in the 2008 study. Only high dosage both in vitro and in vivo. The mice
were injected with 5 to 10 ug. So this would easily achieve a concentration much higher than 5 uM mentioned in the 2007 study.

The 2008 study is meant as a demonstration of possible treatment of breast cancer by injecting resv.
It is clear that a high uM concentration is required for that application.

Because the 2007 is an in vitro study one can also not say for sure that supplementing with resv will deliver about 5uM to the breast cells and thus help breast cancer cell proliferate. The only thing that is implied is that there is a risk if you create a concentration of 5uM resv. around these cells in vivo by injection or other means.

Regards,

100YTG

[Crepulance]

Just wanted to resurface this thread so that it's seen every once in a while. I think it's VERY IMPORTANT that this aspect not be glossed over or pushed to the back. Also Anthony, not antagonistically, but don't you think you should put a label on your bottles of RevGen stating that women with a history of breast cancer, or in their family, should be aware of the possible side effect of it increasing the expression of the gene? If not for moral purposes, I would think you'd want to put it on there as a legal disclaimer.


Crep

Hi 100YTG,

you are correct to ask me about the concentrations required... I pulled the complete paper, and it appears 40uM was used in vitro, while it appears 5 ug or 10 ug was used in vivo.
It appears to be in line with your study regarding a high concentration. I have to say that there is alot of info in this study. Can you take a look 100YTG?

Consistently, we found
resveratrol dramatically reduced the capability of Brca1 mutant
tumor cells to form colonies in soft agar, causing about a 5-fold
decrease in colony size (Figure 3A) and number (Figure 3B) compared
with untreated controls. Such an inhibitory effect was not
obvious for a Brca1 wild-type cell line tested under identical conditions
(Figures 3C and 3D). Our data further indicated that resveratrol
(40 mM) induced a much higher incidence of apoptosis
in Brca1 mutant tumor cells (69) than the Brca1 wild-type cells
(Neu) (data not shown).

In the first set, we pretreated
the nude mice with resveratrol for 10 days before mouse Brca1
mutant tumor cells were implanted. After the implantation, the
treatment continued daily until the tumors were collected. We
demonstrated that the treatment with either 5 ug or 10 ug of resveratrol
significantly delayed tumor initiation and growth

This one was interesting as well:

cells to form tumors in nude mice (Figure 2A).
During the time course, Sirt1-transfected tumor cells had much
more difficulty to initiate tumor formation. At harvest, tumor weight
from the GFP-transfected group (228 mg) was, on average,
4.56-fold of the weight from the Sirt1-overexpressed group

Anthony

After reading the complete 2008 study...ok, ok I skimmed a bit, I find that the studies (2008 vs 2007) don't contradict each other.
There were no low dosage used in the 2008 study. Only high dosage both in vitro and in vivo. The mice
were injected with 5 to 10 ug. So this would easily achieve a concentration much higher than 5 uM mentioned in the 2007 study.

The 2008 study is meant as a demonstration of possible treatment of breast cancer by injecting resv.
It is clear that a high uM concentration is required for that application.

Because the 2007 is an in vitro study one can also not say for sure that supplementing with resv will deliver about 5uM to the breast cells and thus help breast cancer cell proliferate. The only thing that is implied is that there is a risk if you create a concentration of 5uM resv. around these cells in vivo by injection or other means.

Regards,

100YTG

[maxwatt]

Just wanted to resurface this thread so that it's seen every once in a while. I think it's VERY IMPORTANT that this aspect not be glossed over or pushed to the back. Also Anthony, not antagonistically, but don't you think you should put a label on your bottles of RevGen stating that women with a history of breast cancer, or in their family, should be aware of the possible side effect of it increasing the expression of the gene? If not for moral purposes, I would think you'd want to put it on there as a legal disclaimer.


Crep

There's not really much to discuss. There are exactly three studies in Pub Med concerning both resveratrol and BRCA1 or BRCA2. Two of the studies suggest resveratrol inhibits expression of BRCA1 and 2 and so are anti cancer. One older study with low levels of resveratrol found "... expressions of BRCA1 and BRCA2 mRNAs were increased although no change in the expression of the proteins were found." The popular press writeup suggested resveratrol might cause breast cancer, but the actual study suggests no such thing, for though the genes are activated, their proteins were not expressed. Other studies show inhibition of these genes, and many, many studies suggest resveratrol will inhibit breast cancer.

I thought the discussion on this issue has already shown much the same thing. I do not believe that misinterpretation of one anomalous study warrants a specific warning on the label.

Hi 100YTG,

you are correct to ask me about the concentrations required... I pulled the complete paper, and it appears 40uM was used in vitro, while it appears 5 ug or 10 ug was used in vivo.
It appears to be in line with your study regarding a high concentration. I have to say that there is alot of info in this study. Can you take a look 100YTG?

Consistently, we found
resveratrol dramatically reduced the capability of Brca1 mutant
tumor cells to form colonies in soft agar, causing about a 5-fold
decrease in colony size (Figure 3A) and number (Figure 3B) compared
with untreated controls. Such an inhibitory effect was not
obvious for a Brca1 wild-type cell line tested under identical conditions
(Figures 3C and 3D). Our data further indicated that resveratrol
(40 mM) induced a much higher incidence of apoptosis
in Brca1 mutant tumor cells (69) than the Brca1 wild-type cells
(Neu) (data not shown).

In the first set, we pretreated
the nude mice with resveratrol for 10 days before mouse Brca1
mutant tumor cells were implanted. After the implantation, the
treatment continued daily until the tumors were collected. We
demonstrated that the treatment with either 5 ug or 10 ug of resveratrol
significantly delayed tumor initiation and growth

This one was interesting as well:

cells to form tumors in nude mice (Figure 2A).
During the time course, Sirt1-transfected tumor cells had much
more difficulty to initiate tumor formation. At harvest, tumor weight
from the GFP-transfected group (228 mg) was, on average,
4.56-fold of the weight from the Sirt1-overexpressed group

Anthony

After reading the complete 2008 study...ok, ok I skimmed a bit, I find that the studies (2008 vs 2007) don't contradict each other.
There were no low dosage used in the 2008 study. Only high dosage both in vitro and in vivo. The mice
were injected with 5 to 10 ug. So this would easily achieve a concentration much higher than 5 uM mentioned in the 2007 study.

The 2008 study is meant as a demonstration of possible treatment of breast cancer by injecting resv.
It is clear that a high uM concentration is required for that application.

Because the 2007 is an in vitro study one can also not say for sure that supplementing with resv will deliver about 5uM to the breast cells and thus help breast cancer cell proliferate. The only thing that is implied is that there is a risk if you create a concentration of 5uM resv. around these cells in vivo by injection or other means.

Regards,

100YTG

Edited by maxwatt, 19 February 2009 - 11:02 AM.

[VespeneGas]

The voice of reason, as always, Maxwatt. Crep, I know you're the forum's friendly local iconoclast, but the evidence for resv increasing the risk of breast cancer just isn't substantial - if it can be said to exist at all