48 replies to this topic

[edward]

http://www.myrevgene...tro250-caps.htm

Sirtis Graphs show impressive difference between HPMC and Tween

Maybe this has been posted about but I can't find it.

Anyway

Revgenetics Tween 80 micronized Caps

(yes I know I am inadvertently doing PR for Revgenetics, Anthony is great but I hate doing PR for free for anyone.... but no choice in this case)

Normally I would be all over a home brew tween micro res concocotion but from what I have heard Tween is hard to deal with.



edit: my cheap @ss would spring for this if 30 500mg caps could be had for $50, but then again my supp budget is already bloated so I am super cheap right now

Edited by edward, 04 December 2008 - 11:22 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Wow, that is impressive at a glance. So, this may be equivalent to doses of 1-2g resveratrol using conventional delivery methods due to the massive difference in absorption?

[edward]

It looks like:

250 mg would equal 3,300 mg (ish) of conventional Res with no delivery system

and

250 mg would equall 1,500 mg (ish) of micronized Res with no delivery system

and

250 mg would equal 900 mg (ish) of Res in one of our ghettofabulous HPMC concoctions (assuming our Res was micronized enough and then dispersed/dissolved thouroughly in our home labs ->kitchens)

edit: If anything this really illustrates the importance of the delivery system and how poorly actual Res is absorbed in a usable form :(

Edited by edward, 04 December 2008 - 11:47 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Is anyone using this yet? Is it brand new? I'm surprised no one has copied this. How does it compare to the delivery system used by Sirtris in their trials?

[suspire]

Is anyone using this yet? Is it brand new? I'm surprised no one has copied this. How does it compare to the delivery system used by Sirtris in their trials?

Hahaha. We posted within two minutes of one another. You can delete my version of this same question below. Except my one question still stands: Is anyone noticing any differences/results from this new delivery system?

[edward]

Is anyone using this yet? Is it brand new? I'm surprised no one has copied this. How does it compare to the delivery system used by Sirtris in their trials?

I was asking the same things when I stumbled on it. I have sort of ignored the Resveratrol section of this board for awhile so I am not sure, but in searching I haven't found any mention of it. I guess we shall see as I am sure this thread will be discovered and more people post.

[sUper GeNius]

Is anyone using this yet? Is it brand new? I'm surprised no one has copied this. How does it compare to the delivery system used by Sirtris in their trials?

I tried some Tween 80 on my own a while back. Tasted kind of soapy.

[edward]

Is anyone using this yet? Is it brand new? I'm surprised no one has copied this. How does it compare to the delivery system used by Sirtris in their trials?

I tried some Tween 80 on my own a while back. Tasted kind of soapy.

Was it easy to mix and deal with? I was told that it was like thick goo at room temperature, not real conducive to daily mixing.

[sUper GeNius]

I wonder why Anthony doesn't concoct some buccal delivery system. I posted a link a while back that showed that buccal delivery was far superior to even Tween. Can we do this on our own with HPMC? Just make a very thick gooey paste of the stuff and stick it under the tongue.

[suspire]

Is anyone using this yet? Is it brand new? I'm surprised no one has copied this. How does it compare to the delivery system used by Sirtris in their trials?

I tried some Tween 80 on my own a while back. Tasted kind of soapy.

Isn't it a capsule? Why are you mixing it with something else? For better absorption? If so, why--the delivery system seems to indicate it would be unnecessary.

[zorba990]

Is anyone using this yet? Is it brand new? I'm surprised no one has copied this. How does it compare to the delivery system used by Sirtris in their trials?

I tried some Tween 80 on my own a while back. Tasted kind of soapy.

Isn't it a capsule? Why are you mixing it with something else? For better absorption? If so, why--the delivery system seems to indicate it would be unnecessary.

I just place the regular (not micronized) powder under my tongue. Once it seems to be
either gone or all liquid I mix the remainder with lecithin in my mouth, chew and swallow.

[sUper GeNius]

Is anyone using this yet? Is it brand new? I'm surprised no one has copied this. How does it compare to the delivery system used by Sirtris in their trials?

I tried some Tween 80 on my own a while back. Tasted kind of soapy.

Was it easy to mix and deal with? I was told that it was like thick goo at room temperature, not real conducive to daily mixing.

Yes, it was thick, and I had problems mixing it. And it tasted like crap.

[edward]

I wonder why Anthony doesn't concoct some buccal delivery system. I posted a link a while back that showed that buccal delivery was far superior to even Tween. Can we do this on our own with HPMC? Just make a very thick gooey paste of the stuff and stick it under the tongue.

My current delivery method is 4 easy convoluted and slightly crazy steps

1. Mix Res with a little warm water in my mouth swish vigorously around and then hold for a minute or so

2. Scoop 1/16th of a tsp of HPMC swish and mix lol and chew until the HPMC is dissolved and everything dispersed (yes dispersal/dissolving does occur)

3. (Still holding the stuff in my mouth) Walk down stairs and scoop 1/2 tablespoon of whey protein powder into my mouth

4. Add more warm water, swish vigorously until everything is dissolved..... and drumroll.... finally swallow

Reasoning/Benefits: No Res wastage, Some Bucal and Sublingual delivery, no extra mixing or blending AND its quite a workout for my mouth and facial muscles adding to dexterity and giving my face that youthful tone

Conclusion: I am a little insane and its amazing the lengths one will go to for an obsession LOL

[suspire]

I wonder why Anthony doesn't concoct some buccal delivery system. I posted a link a while back that showed that buccal delivery was far superior to even Tween. Can we do this on our own with HPMC? Just make a very thick gooey paste of the stuff and stick it under the tongue.

My current delivery method is 4 easy convoluted and slightly crazy steps

1. Mix Res with a little warm water in my mouth swish vigorously around and then hold for a minute or so

2. Scoop 1/16th of a tsp of HPMC swish and mix lol and chew until the HPMC is dissolved and everything dispersed (yes dispersal/dissolving does occur)

3. (Still holding the stuff in my mouth) Walk down stairs and scoop 1/2 tablespoon of whey protein powder into my mouth

4. Add more warm water, swish vigorously until everything is dissolved..... and drumroll.... finally swallow

Reasoning/Benefits: No Res wastage, Some Bucal and Sublingual delivery, no extra mixing or blending AND its quite a workout for my mouth and facial muscles adding to dexterity and giving my face that youthful tone

Conclusion: I am a little insane and its amazing the lengths one will go to for an obsession LOL

Yeah, okay, that's something I wouldn't do.

[niner]

I'm puzzled. After looking at a lot of different delivery systems, Sirtris went with HPMC/DOSS. That's what SRT501 is. Tween was something they looked at earlier. In the above graph, the HPMC/DOSS system is labeled with a dosage; 400mg/kg. Do we know for sure that these two graphs are looking at the same dose in the same animal?

Also, I'm not sure that combining the Tween with the resveratrol in dry form in a capsule is going to do what you want. Normally things like Tween or HPMC have to be put into solution, and the drug is suspended in them. Getting these things to dissolve into a well-behaved solution may be non-trivial...

[geddarkstorm]

I'm puzzled. After looking at a lot of different delivery systems, Sirtris went with HPMC/DOSS. That's what SRT501 is. Tween was something they looked at earlier. In the above graph, the HPMC/DOSS system is labeled with a dosage; 400mg/kg. Do we know for sure that these two graphs are looking at the same dose in the same animal?

Also, I'm not sure that combining the Tween with the resveratrol in dry form in a capsule is going to do what you want. Normally things like Tween or HPMC have to be put into solution, and the drug is suspended in them. Getting these things to dissolve into a well-behaved solution may be non-trivial...

When I get enough disposable cash on hand, I'm definitely going to buy this stuff as it looks awesome. That said, it all depends on how much tween they are using as to how well behaved the solution will be (I'm assuming these are gel capsules). I regularly work with a 0.5% tween based solution in lab for antibody binding, and it's no trouble. Raw, 100% tween is very cohesive, but not too hard to work with. It's a liquid (at room temp) detergent, after all. Still, even a 0.5% solution of tween 80 can greatly increase the solubility of some hydrophobic proteins and particles (and so decreases the chance of non-specific binding with antibodies).

Maybe Anthony will stop by to give us more info exactly on those graphs and his system.

[Hedgehog]

I'm puzzled. After looking at a lot of different delivery systems, Sirtris went with HPMC/DOSS. That's what SRT501 is. Tween was something they looked at earlier. In the above graph, the HPMC/DOSS system is labeled with a dosage; 400mg/kg. Do we know for sure that these two graphs are looking at the same dose in the same animal?

Also, I'm not sure that combining the Tween with the resveratrol in dry form in a capsule is going to do what you want. Normally things like Tween or HPMC have to be put into solution, and the drug is suspended in them. Getting these things to dissolve into a well-behaved solution may be non-trivial...

When I get enough disposable cash on hand, I'm definitely going to buy this stuff as it looks awesome. That said, it all depends on how much tween they are using as to how well behaved the solution will be (I'm assuming these are gel capsules). I regularly work with a 0.5% tween based solution in lab for antibody binding, and it's no trouble. Raw, 100% tween is very cohesive, but not too hard to work with. It's a liquid (at room temp) detergent, after all. Still, even a 0.5% solution of tween 80 can greatly increase the solubility of some hydrophobic proteins and particles (and so decreases the chance of non-specific binding with antibodies).

Maybe Anthony will stop by to give us more info exactly on those graphs and his system.

Niner how are you? You back in the lab again? You must be feeling better. I have simply starting using an IV w/ my Res. LOL just kidding. Actually If this is a liquid suspension I would be curious about some stability data. If you negate the normal steric hindrance of molecule you might get a 50-50 conversion of our unfriendly cis friend.

[Anthony_Loera]

I do know quite a few people simply taking the micronized powder for buccal, although regular may work... I suppose it depends on what folks would like to try. If you already take a capsule, break it open and put the powder under your tongue to see if it will be awful tasting for you, or you can easily take it that way.

having said that...

The Nitro250 are 250mg of trans-res using Licaps liquid capsules (yes the one with the famous nitrogen bubble, opaque, and can survive a nuclea... ok maybe not that last item)

I mentioned in another post a while back, that we were talking to the capsugel formulators to help us provide a capsule with a fast absorption. I have to say that the final formulation was tweaked by the capsugel folks, and includes a decision to go with a gel capsule as the vegetarian capsule required beeswax which (according to the formulator) would create a paste and may slow absorption down quite a bit.

The aim for this capsule was to provide immediate and fast absorption compared to our other capsules. This was not designed as a "slow release" or "time released" capsule formula on purpose. I hope this info helps.

Cheers
A

I wonder why Anthony doesn't concoct some buccal delivery system. I posted a link a while back that showed that buccal delivery was far superior to even Tween. Can we do this on our own with HPMC? Just make a very thick gooey paste of the stuff and stick it under the tongue.

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 05 December 2008 - 02:51 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

My current delivery method is 4 easy convoluted and slightly crazy steps

1. Mix Res with a little warm water in my mouth swish vigorously around and then hold for a minute or so

2. Scoop 1/16th of a tsp of HPMC swish and mix lol and chew until the HPMC is dissolved and everything dispersed (yes dispersal/dissolving does occur)

3. (Still holding the stuff in my mouth) Walk down stairs and scoop 1/2 tablespoon of whey protein powder into my mouth

4. Add more warm water, swish vigorously until everything is dissolved..... and drumroll.... finally swallow

lol edward, this is awesome. Its like a science experiment in your mouth every morning. After reading this, I think you are an excellent candidate for home-made LDN.

[edward]

My current delivery method is 4 easy convoluted and slightly crazy steps

1. Mix Res with a little warm water in my mouth swish vigorously around and then hold for a minute or so

2. Scoop 1/16th of a tsp of HPMC swish and mix lol and chew until the HPMC is dissolved and everything dispersed (yes dispersal/dissolving does occur)

3. (Still holding the stuff in my mouth) Walk down stairs and scoop 1/2 tablespoon of whey protein powder into my mouth

4. Add more warm water, swish vigorously until everything is dissolved..... and drumroll.... finally swallow

lol edward, this is awesome. Its like a science experiment in your mouth every morning. After reading this, I think you are an excellent candidate for home-made LDN.

Lol, thanks. It actually seems like less trouble then some of the methods proposed in the enhancing resveratrol effectiveness thread, its just the all in your mouth weirdness that really well seems weird when you type it out.

[malbecman]

Yes, nice to know that I am not the only neurotic when it comes to supplementation regimes.

I often just use ~250-300 mgs of regular 99% powder between my lower lip and gum so this would be a buccal delivery. Under the tongue you are talking sublingual. It usually takes ~30 minutes to totally dissolve/dissipate, etc. Sorry to be pedantic but thats what you get from pharmacology training in grad school.

I also use HPMC and H2O to make a slurry and ingest it that way on an empty stomach, usually ~1.5 grams. I have tasted Tween and yuck, yep, its a detergent. Not for me but maybe in a gel cap. I'm debating on whether to fork over the extra $$ for micronized t-res when my current supply
runs out or just use larger amounts of the cheaper regular stuff.

My current delivery method is 4 easy convoluted and slightly crazy steps

1. Mix Res with a little warm water in my mouth swish vigorously around and then hold for a minute or so

2. Scoop 1/16th of a tsp of HPMC swish and mix lol and chew until the HPMC is dissolved and everything dispersed (yes dispersal/dissolving does occur)

3. (Still holding the stuff in my mouth) Walk down stairs and scoop 1/2 tablespoon of whey protein powder into my mouth

4. Add more warm water, swish vigorously until everything is dissolved..... and drumroll.... finally swallow

lol edward, this is awesome. Its like a science experiment in your mouth every morning. After reading this, I think you are an excellent candidate for home-made LDN.

Lol, thanks. It actually seems like less trouble then some of the methods proposed in the enhancing resveratrol effectiveness thread, its just the all in your mouth weirdness that really well seems weird when you type it out.

[AHE]

I have a question hopefully someone can help with.

Was this study conducted using tween 80 and resveratrol in solution? Or was the dose given in solid dry form?

Is the absorption across a membrane or is it an in vivo test? i.e. was it performed in an animal?

Thanks

[Anthony_Loera]

I have a question hopefully someone can help with.

Was this study conducted using tween 80 and resveratrol in solution? Or was the dose given in solid dry form?

Is the absorption across a membrane or is it an in vivo test? i.e. was it performed in an animal?

Thanks

Performed in Vivo on animal, not given in solid dry form...

A

[AHE]

I have a question hopefully someone can help with.

Was this study conducted using tween 80 and resveratrol in solution? Or was the dose given in solid dry form?

Is the absorption across a membrane or is it an in vivo test? i.e. was it performed in an animal?

Thanks

Performed in Vivo on animal, not given in solid dry form...

A

Thanks for the feedback Anthony.
So the product you are selling is Tween 80 and t-Res in a liquid gel capsule?

[Anthony_Loera]

Actually it is not a liquid gel capsule...

It is a Licaps capsule made by Capsugel, with nitrogen, a liquid delivery system, no excipients, tamper evident, etc. We add to this capsule our 1.5 micron sized pure trans-resveratrol, and had their experienced Capsugel formulator nail down the exact absorption formulation and capsule to use with tween 80. That is about it...

What is the difference between a Licap and others?

See the slides on this here:
http://docs.google.c...7kxw_10fn3b6rhd


So overall... it's not a bad capsule. My only issue with it? Well, they were not able to make a 500mg resveratrol capsule for us, the technology has some limitations...
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 12 December 2008 - 12:25 AM.

[AHE]

Actually it is not a liquid gel capsule...

It is a Licaps capsule made by Capsugel, with nitrogen, a liquid delivery system, no excipients, tamper evident, etc. We add to this capsule our 1.5 micron sized pure trans-resveratrol, and had their experienced Capsugel formulator nail down the exact absorption formulation and capsule to use with tween 80. That is about it...

What is the difference between a Licap and others?

See the slides on this here:
http://docs.google.c...7kxw_10fn3b6rhd


So overall... it's not a bad capsule. My only issue with it? Well, they were not able to make a 500mg resveratrol capsule for us, the technology has some limitations...
A

Thanks for the link. I had a quick read of the presentation.

So there is liquid inside this capsule too? In the presentation, it appears that there is liquid inside.

[AHE]

The reason I ask Anthony is because this Licaps capsule suggests it has liquid inside (liquid delivery system).
However, after reading the MyRevgenetics webiste about the product, it states that the only ingredients are Resveratrol (250mg) and Tween 80.

[niner]

The reason I ask Anthony is because this Licaps capsule suggests it has liquid inside (liquid delivery system).
However, after reading the MyRevgenetics webiste about the product, it states that the only ingredients are Resveratrol (250mg) and Tween 80.

I was wondering about this too. My first impression was that it was dry tween, but from what Anthony has said it sounds like it's a solution. With all the resveratrol that's already in the capsule occupying space, can you get enough tween in there to do any good? I guess if the licap is about 1cc, then this would correspond to a suspension of 5g resveratrol in 20cc tween solution, so I suppose I've answered my own question. Anthony, is this description close to reality?

[AHE]

I'm not entirely sure, but I dont think it is a solution. This may be an assumption, but the overall mass of the capsule is 253mg. Is this correct? If so, the only thing in the capsule is tween 80 (minute amounts) and Resveratrol. There is no room for anything else unless I have missed something.

It's not about getting enough tween to do any good. The amount of emulsifier you'll need is very minimal to make a solution. So I am sure there is enough in the capsule.

The solution needs to be made in the capsule so as to achieve good solubilisation. That's what I'd like to know...

[Anthony_Loera]

Niner,

It is a liquid solution.
This will give you a good idea of what each capsule has:

253mg of 99% trans-r
25mg lecithin

and a total of 562mg of liquid which includes tween 80, medium chain tryglecerides, and tocopherols. Originaly we asked the formulator for at least 20% tween 80 in the cap. However, the formulator had the last say since he had much more experience regarding absorption using particular caps, and tween with formulations using medium chain trigs and tocopherols in an emulsion.

Since they are the experts, they modified the formulation for us for absorption using these items in our capsule. (Again, if you can lookup who owns capsugel, you'll understand why I trust the formulator's particular experience...).

I hope this helps...

cheers
A