56 replies to this topic

[caston]

OK guys I was way off with suggesting that bacteria might produce catalase. I apolgise for my ignorance but it did get me thinking and I ended up doing some research and I learned more because of it and I am very thankful to you guys for helping me out especially 100YearsToGo..

Now that LIPOSOMAL SERUM looks interesting but lets say I had what I was suggesting backwards...
that gene that encodes for catalase gets *attacked* by bacteria.

I asked a question of Amy Proal a Marshall Protocol advocate about how a healthy person might be able to use the Marshall Protocol to kill intracellular bacteria and slow their aging process.


http://bacteriality.com/about-the-mp/
Question is post 106 her answer is post number 108

Her whole website is full of really exciting articles like this one:

http://bacteriality....07/11/18/aging/

“I’m sixty going on sixteen.” “I think that at the moment my brain functions even better than it did when I graduated from college 50 years ago.” “I’m convinced that I will live longer because I’m doing the Marshall Protocol.” Comments like these - which were made by actual patients in the MP phase II study trial - are increasingly common as people reach the later stages of the treatment. In fact, many Marshall Protocol patients who have recovered from inflammatory conditions, such as sarcoidosis, rheumatoid arthritis, diabetes, and others report that recovery feels like “being 20 years younger.”

In a 2006 paper in the Journal of Immunity and Aging, Italian researcher Sergio Giunta argues that inflammation and aging are intricately connected, to the point where the term “Inflammaging” has been coined “to explain the now widely accepted phenomenon that ageing is accompanied by a low-grade chronic, systemic up-regulation of the inflammatory response and that the underlying inflammatory changes are also common to most age-associated diseases.”

Also the following article is fascinating:
http://bacteriality..../07/09/aging08/

Several talks also focused on what are referred to as “senescent” cells - cells that fail to undergo the usual process of cell death and instead enter a stable and essentially irreversible growth-arrest state. Senescent cells have been shown to accumulate with age and with age-related diseases, making it clear that the presence of these cells contributes to the aging process and disease in general. And while the reason behind the formation of senescent cells remains a mystery to the medical community at large, it’s quite probable, at least in my eyes, that senescent cells are simply infected cells.
As Judith Campisi of the Lawrence Berkeley National Library and Buck Institute made clear in a speech, cancerous stimuli often foster the development of senescent cells and, as discussed above, the Th1 pathogens are quite prolific during cancer. But the greatest giveaway that senescent cells are at the mercy of the Th1 pathogens stems from the fact that, as Campisi described, senescent cells are metabolically active and secrete myriad inflammatory cytokines. In my opinion, nothing screams infection more than the release of inflammatory cytokines, since the inflammatory molecules are released by the immune system in response to infection. Campisi also described how, although senescent cells are targeted for clearance by the innate immune system, they are able to defy the immune response by secreting high levels of enzymes called matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs). In my opinion, the creation of these enzymes probably marks yet another way the Th1 pathogens have evolved to alter cellular machinery in order to foster their survival.

Then there’s stem cells. If the rest of our cells can be infected by the Th1 pathogens, then why not our stem cells? Or, can our stem cells be damaged by the cytokines secreted by other infected cells? Indeed, Amy Wagers of Harvard University presented a talk in which she clarified that much of the aging process results when the stem cells can no longer repair the tissues. Wagers stated that her work points towards “a discrete set of metabolic regulators and inflammatory cytokines which may alter the signals that stem cells receive from their environment in aged animals.” Again, the fact that inflammatory cytokines seem to affect stem cell resiliency points to the involvement of chronic infection in stem cell decline.

and

Another doctor was so moved by Dr. Marshall’s speech that, during the dinner before the Sunday poster session, he cornered me in the salad line to let me know how excited he was about the MP’s implications. He said the MP reminded him of a particular Sherlock Holmes short story where Holmes figures out the killer’s identity by looking for a clue in the very place no one had considered. He was referring to an electron microscopy image Dr. Marshall showed during his talk, one of a cell infected by bacteria. The bacteria is inside the human cell– no one thinks to look there! I have seen few people so animated and I was so surprised by his exuberance that I dropped my tray (we were eating in a cafeteria) and my dish shattered on the floor. Whoops!

I'd love to find that picture and I'm hunting around the net trying to find it right now. For now how about an infected blood cell:




Here's the link to Dr Marshall's UCLA aging conference talk overview:

http://www.mfoundati...racts/marshall/

and video:

View on Vimeo.

So there we go... i'm excited and feeling on top of the world... the deathists don't have a leg to stand on if much of aging is caused by chronic intracellular bacteria!

Edited by caston, 10 March 2009 - 04:27 AM.

[yoyo]

what evidence is there that any significant number of people have chronic infections, when other confirmed causes of inflammation are known and exist in many people (obesity, bad fats in the diet, etc.)?


the Sergio Giunta paper doesn't suggest anything about infection. in fact he says

"Moreover, Claudio Franceschi, Tom Kirkwood, and Calogero Caruso [1,8,9] as well as other authors, postulate that both the ageing process and age-associated diseases are late consequences of evolutionary programming for a pro-inflammatory response mainly selected to resist infections and for a successful response to wound healing in early age, a view that has been discussed in the light of the antagonistic pleiotropy theory [1,8,9]. Such a theory on the evolution of aging postulates that senescence is the late deleterious effect of genes that are beneficial in early life. Evolutionary programming of the innate immune system may act via selection on these genetic traits."

its the tilting at windmills.

i don't get how you can jump from a wacky theory on sarcadoisis to the idea everyone's infected

[niner]

I asked a question of Amy Proal a Marshall Protocol advocate about how a healthy person might be able to use the Marshall Protocol to kill intracellular bacteria and slow their aging process.

Her whole website is full of really exciting articles like this one...

Amy Proal scares me. She is infatuated with Marshall's theories, some of which rest on pretty shaky ground. Proal has just enough knowledge to be dangerous, and she is a good writer. She combines cult-like belief with a gift for communication. This is not good.

[caston]

Yeah sorry guys... I wish i hadn't made that post now... i'm sort of split... I think they may or may not have a point about bacteria but it's like presenting the delicious steak meal on the smelly overturned garbage lid and telling you it's a fine china plate .. they act like a cult.. ignore scientific conventions, ignore and ostracize people that query them, make dangerous recommendation about use of antibiotics and drugs ....

it may well be that bacteria has a major role in the ageing process but there is LOTS of bacteria in the body.. how do we know which bacteria is symbiotic and which is pathogenic... and even if it was all pathogenic how on earth do we know that the different antibiotics aren't also hurting normal mechanisms of our cells?

I'm playing with the idea of building a sort of alternate anti bacterial and anti fungal protocol using the things that plants use to protect themselves against these threats: for example Oleuropein, resveratrol (which I believe grapes actually use to protect themselves against fungus)

The idea about targeting the bacteria that infect macrophages seems interesting to me but I'd want something really safe to use on the body but damn mean against the bugs.

In the past I have been prescribed antibiotics for acne including minocycline. Recently I have been wondering if this has in any way contributed to the youthful appearance and good general health i've enjoyed.

I also was on something called Oliviral http://www.foodsforl...au/oliviral.htm a couple of years ago. I didn't like the effect it had on my body even complaining that it made my joints click but I have been wondering of late if it was a no pain no gain thing... the bacteria doesn't cause symptoms .. it just slowly ages your body... if you take something that kills the bacteria you feel like sh*t for a while... I'm only speculating of course here

Edited by caston, 12 March 2009 - 03:56 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

“I’m sixty going on sixteen.” “I think that at the moment my brain functions even better than it did when I graduated from college 50 years ago.” “I’m convinced that I will live longer because I’m doing the Marshall Protocol.” Comments like these - which were made by actual patients in the MP phase II study trial - are increasingly common as people reach the later stages of the treatment. In fact, many Marshall Protocol patients who have recovered from inflammatory conditions, such as sarcoidosis, rheumatoid arthritis, diabetes, and others report that recovery feels like “being 20 years younger.”

Well of course these people are going to live longer and feel younger, they just recovered from a chronic infection with the help of three different intracellular antibiotics used simultaneously. I remain skeptical that vitamin D restriction has anything to do with Marshall Protocol successes.

This has no relevance to healthy individuals and these newly recovered patents can hope for, at best, a normal lifespan.

[caston]

“I’m sixty going on sixteen.” “I think that at the moment my brain functions even better than it did when I graduated from college 50 years ago.” “I’m convinced that I will live longer because I’m doing the Marshall Protocol.” Comments like these - which were made by actual patients in the MP phase II study trial - are increasingly common as people reach the later stages of the treatment. In fact, many Marshall Protocol patients who have recovered from inflammatory conditions, such as sarcoidosis, rheumatoid arthritis, diabetes, and others report that recovery feels like “being 20 years younger.”

Well of course these people are going to live longer and feel younger, they just recovered from a chronic infection with the help of three different intracellular antibiotics used simultaneously. I remain skeptical that vitamin D restriction has anything to do with Marshall Protocol successes.

This has no relevance to healthy individuals and these newly recovered patents can hope for, at best, a normal lifespan.

Yeah, but sadly they just delete the posts of the people that it failed for and sometimes the people that wrote stuff like that are kind of brainwashed into thinking they are better but they aren't.

[imarobot]

Back to gray hair.

I've been graying slowing for years -- a small number of gray hairs on the sides. A month or two ago I got serious with the resveratrol and started consuming 400 mg of trans-res a day (I know -- I'm hardcore). The sprinkling of gray hairs is gone. I also started a paleo diet and consume a few hundred calories of coconut oil a day. I'm think res is the reason, because other people have reported darkening facial hair as a side effect of resveratrol use.

Any ideas how resveratrol might be braided into this new theory on gray hairs?

Edited by imarobot, 12 March 2009 - 04:18 PM.

[caston]

Back to gray hair.

I've been graying slowing for years -- a small number of gray hairs on the sides. A month or two ago I got serious with the resveratrol and started consuming 400 mg of trans-res a day (I know -- I'm hardcore). The sprinkling of gray hairs is gone. I also started a paleo diet and consume a few hundred calories of coconut oil a day. I'm think res is the reason, because other people have reported darkening facial hair as a side effect of resveratrol use.

Any ideas how resveratrol might be braided into this new theory on gray hairs?

OK everyone is probably sick of me posting now... but res does have anti-fungal and anti-bacterial properties...
http://jac.oxfordjou...t/full/47/2/243

[NDM]

Back to gray hair.

I've been graying slowing for years -- a small number of gray hairs on the sides. A month or two ago I got serious with the resveratrol and started consuming 400 mg of trans-res a day (I know -- I'm hardcore). The sprinkling of gray hairs is gone. I also started a paleo diet and consume a few hundred calories of coconut oil a day. I'm think res is the reason, because other people have reported darkening facial hair as a side effect of resveratrol use.

Any ideas how resveratrol might be braided into this new theory on gray hairs?

OK everyone is probably sick of me posting now... but res does have anti-fungal and anti-bacterial properties...
http://jac.oxfordjou...t/full/47/2/243

but resveratrol inhibits catalase activity as well!!! I don't get it...

Inhibition of Oxidative and Antioxidative Enzymes by Trans-ResveratrolX. Fan ¹ J.P. Mattheis ¹ ABSTRACT: Trans-resveratrol, a phytoalexin produced by a variety of plants, has been shown to inhibit oxidative enzymes in an animal cell system. Its effect on several oxidative and antioxidative enzymes from plants was investigated using in vitro assays. Trans-resveratrol inhibited superoxide dismutase, lipoxygenase, catalase, peroxidase, polyphenol oxidase, and 1-aminocyclopropane-1-carboxylic acid oxidase with apparent K_I's of 10, 90, 100, 255, 305, and 350 μM, respectively. Trans-resveratrol inhibited lipoxygenase activity more effectively than other lipoxygenase inhibitors, including propyl gallate, ibuprofen, ursolic acid, acetylsalicylic acid, and salicylhydroxamic acid.DIGITAL OBJECT IDENTIFIER (DOI)10.1111/j.1365-2621.2001.tb11316.x

[niner]

but resveratrol inhibits catalase activity as well!!! I don't get it...

Inhibition of Oxidative and Antioxidative Enzymes by Trans-ResveratrolX. Fan ¹ J.P. Mattheis ¹ ABSTRACT: Trans-resveratrol, a phytoalexin produced by a variety of plants, has been shown to inhibit oxidative enzymes in an animal cell system. Its effect on several oxidative and antioxidative enzymes from plants was investigated using in vitro assays. Trans-resveratrol inhibited superoxide dismutase, lipoxygenase, catalase, peroxidase, polyphenol oxidase, and 1-aminocyclopropane-1-carboxylic acid oxidase with apparent K_I's of 10, 90, 100, 255, 305, and 350 μM, respectively. Trans-resveratrol inhibited lipoxygenase activity more effectively than other lipoxygenase inhibitors, including propyl gallate, ibuprofen, ursolic acid, acetylsalicylic acid, and salicylhydroxamic acid.

These concentrations of resveratrol are one to two orders of magnitude larger than can be achieved in human serum via oral dosing, so that might explain it. Not enough resveratrol around to inhibit catalase in vivo, absent some mechanism for concentration in the cell.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

Well it appears we have one company that claims to have a product in the pipeline... See my recent post: http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=28604

Also (on another potential front against gray hair), based on a comment by Dr. Mercola, he is currently part of a test group for a "Stem Cell Stimulation Therapy" that may help with not only gray hair, but hair loss. See his article What Your Gray Hair Says about You... . From his comment section there:

"As it turns out, melanocytes -- those special cells that make melanin -- come from stem cells. Halfway up your hair follicle, above the bulb, there is a pocket that houses melanocyte stem cells. These stem cells turn into melanocytes when old melanocytes die off.

However, as you get older, your stem cells diminish in quality and quantity. Likewise, the stem cells in your hair follicles decrease over time, and eventually no new melanocytes are produced and hence melanin synthesis stops, and your hair turns gray.

So the idea is that by stimulating the stem cells with special polypeptide signals you may be able to reverse this process and keep both your hair color, and your hair. I’m actually beta testing one of these polypeptide signal topical therapies right now, and my hair is slowly starting to come back in, so it’s pretty exciting stuff and most of the gray is disappearing. I look forward to giving you further updates on that product later on."

Edited by frankbuzin, 23 March 2009 - 04:51 PM.

[AgeVivo]

Some people get grey hair in their 20's and still live to 80 and beyond

When your hair turns grey has nothing to do with aging in other aspects.

Hum, wrong inference. It could well be a general ageing mechanism that for some reason happens specifically early and locally for a non negligeable proportional of individuals/families. It would not have been much counter-selected because having grey hair at age 20 isn't such a big deal to have progeny.

In fact i guess that "gray hair in their 20's" might be a good case study to understand/overcome the "mitochondrial free radical" contribution to aging. As you may know mitochondrial catalase overexpression extends lifespan in mice (free pdf paper, easy to read; even Michael from ML agrees with it). It is not obvious if the problematic H2O2 is mainly the one from the mitochondrion nor how to practically get rid of the troubles caused by H2O2. Hopefully hair/cosmetic research will find out!

Moreover - but this is pure wishfull thinking so probably wrong - this "Met-S=O formation of Met residues" could be representative of why methionine restriction extends lifespan.

[superbman]

When your hair turns grey has nothing to do with aging in other aspects. Some people get grey hair in their 20's and still live to 80 and beyond

Just want to point out something off topic here. Speaking from personal experience, people in their 20's who have grey hair might actually be Vitamin B12 deficient. I'm 28, and a year back I spotted a lot of gray hair in the mirror a day after I got a hair cut. I did some research, and some of it pointed to Vitamin B12 deficiency. So I got my B12 levels tested and turned out to be severely deficient. I supplemented with 1000 mcg Vitamin B12 a day, and in 3 months the gray hair completely vanished! Hope this info helps those who are in their 20's and suffering from premature graying.

[Nootropic Cat]

^Sweet. Actually another post stated the same thing but I'm glad you bumped this. I'm excited to start supplementing B12 now - hopefully I can get rid of the white stripe in my beard.

[Stefanovic]

Maybe some of you might be interested in reading another thread on this forum:

http://www.imminst.o...reased-melanin/

In my case it would be helpful to darken my red hair, but some patents also speak about darkening greys. Anyway, the challenge is finding a good formulator.
Some patents look pretty good and hopeful to me.

[VidX]

This is funny when you think. My friend, 43yo, leads pretty self destructive lifestyle, has a few serious ilnesses, etc.. BUT - not a single gray hair on his head (and full head of hair too), actually even pretty good color...

[motif]

natural "cure" is blackstrap molasses. I'm over 40 and no signs of gray hair.

Edited by motif, 14 December 2010 - 09:41 PM.

[Stefanovic]

molasses don't work for everybody. I think we should better look into one of the patents I sent. Things that should work for everybody, also other lighter colors.

[anandkumar]

At my teen age, I was having gray hair problems and from that time I was searching a solution for that. At present many teenagers or any age group around the globe are suffering from this severe problem. On one day I was just browsing the web then my eyes gone towards a product named beep and I found that this product is useful for gray hair remedies. Beep (Beep) uses a unique formulation which applies Bismuth Citrate to your hair. This safe chemical penetrates your hair where it forms Melanin the natural pigmentation of your hair.

So, over time, you get back your natural hair colour when you use beep (Beep).

Edited by Brainbox, 03 January 2011 - 09:01 PM.
Beep

[mikeinnaples]

Nice infomercial ....go spam it somewhere else.

[curious_sle]

um, judging by the pics in the info material SkQ1 could be quite nice for graying hair (if nothing else) :-P

[Brainbox]

Nice infomercial ....go spam it somewhere else.

Thanks for bringing spam to the attention of the navigator team. It would be more effective to use the "report" button however.

[mikeinnaples]

Nice infomercial ....go spam it somewhere else.

Thanks for bringing spam to the attention of the navigator team. It would be more effective to use the "report" button however.

Sorry, I am more of the make-a-sarcastic-comment type than the tattle-tale-on-someone-unless-it-is-way-overboard type.

[Joe Cohen]

Novel Solutions to Prevent Graying Hair

The Take Away


-I’m not graying yet, but I realize it’s inevitable as time goes on. Some interesting new studies have shed some insight into the cause and mechanism into halting the process.

-According to recent scientific studies, low levels of catalase may play a role in the graying process of human hair. Hydrogen peroxide is naturally produced by the body and catalase breaks it down. If catalase levels decline, hydrogen peroxide cannot be broken down as well. This allows the hydrogen peroxide to bleach the hair from the inside out.

-You may be able to prevent graying hair by either increasing catalase or directly scavenging hydrogen peroxide.

-Exercise, caloric restriction and fasting are probably the most effective way of increasing catalase(We want catalase). Cold water shower and time restricted eating may help significantly, too.

-Eat lots of vegetables since many if not most raise catalase. Unless you’re into popping lots of pills or taking herbs, there’s no way around this one. Fruits are good, too. Mushrooms are great. Dark chocolate or cocoa can be beneficial as well.

-Destress and SLEEP. Stress and sleep deprivation lead to whitening hair by decreasing catalase. Ashwagandha is an effective method for preventing stress induced decrease in catalase.

-Stay away from heavy metals like mercury and lead. Also, don’t overdo iron rich foods like red meat.

-Stay away from alcohol or use in moderation, since alcohol decreases catalase. In moderation, there might be a compensatory response which would prove beneficial . More investigation needs to be done. I’d say 1 beer or equivalent alcohol consumption is moderation.

-Don’t overdo the sun. UVA decreases catalase. Make sure to get adequate sun though. 30-60 min is adequates.

-Many herbs and plants can increase catalase.

-The foods/herbs that I’d use are: Crimini mushrooms, Sweet potatoes, Chayawanprash or Amla, Raw Honey, Cinnamon, Cocoa, Tea, Fish Oil, Kombucha/ACV, Flax, Tulsi, Fenugreek, Ginseng, Rooibos, Soy, Grapeseed extract, Resveratrol, Astragalus, Rehmannia, Curcumin, Reishi, RLA, Coq10, Bitter Melon, Gynostemma, OLE, Dan Shen, Ashwagandha, Bacopa, Gotu Kola, Berberine, Carnitine,

-Lipoic acid and cysteine are direct scavengers of H2O2. This means that it may lower hydrogen peroxide independent of catalase. Cysteine is found in eggs and sesame in high concentrations, as well as in many other foods. We may not have enough since the world we live in might place a higher burden on cysteine to detox toxins through glutathione. NAC is a supplement that can increase cysteine.

-Amla oil can be used topically and is used traditionally for this purpose.

-Avocado oil can also be used topically to increase catalase. I may use that instead of Amla because of ease of access.

-Fo-ti is a traditional remedy for graying hair, but I haven’t seen anything with catalase. I’m slightly concerned about its liver toxicity.

-PQQ and Marijuana may be counterproductive for preventing graying of hair. More investigation is necessary.

-Increased hydrogen peroxide in catalase-deficient cells extends chronological lifespan despite parallel increases in oxidative damage. But I wouldn’t pay much attention to this.

[nowayout]

Any theory on what causes graying should be able to explain another aspect of graying in at least some people (including me); namely, why do gray hairs have accelerated growth? The gray hairs on my head and body grow at least two or three times faster than the hairs that are still black. The gray hairs also tend to be thicker and, in the case of body hair, grow to a much longer absolute length. Also, gray hairs seem to be resistant to male pattern baldness, unlike the black ones. I don't see how the self-bleaching theory could account for all this - something else is definitely going on here.

[drtom]

ellagic acid boosts catalase activity...so shall we wash our hair with pomegranate juice?
I bet that some of the products that boost skin quality also boost catalase activity...dark chocolate, blueberry


Anticancer Res. 2006 Sep-Oct;26(5A):3601-6. Links


Antioxidant and apoptosis-inducing activities of ellagic acid.
Han DH, Lee MJ, Kim JH.Department of Biochemistry, College of Dentistry, Kyung Hee University, Seoul 130-701, Korea.

BACKGROUND: Antioxidant, antiproliferative and apoptosis inducing activities of a natural polyphenolic compound, ellagic acid, were studied. MATERIALS AND METHODS: DPPH radical scavenging and lipid peroxidation inhibitory activities were observed. Activities of antioxidant enzymes, superoxide dismutase (SOD), catalase (CAT) and glutathione peroxidase (GPX) were measured in ellagic acid-treated V79-4 cells. For apoptotic inducing activity, human osteogenic sarcoma (HOS) cell proliferation, chromosomal DNA degradation and changes in apoptosis-related protein levels were measured. RESULTS: Ellagic acid showed high DPPH radical scavenging and lipid peroxidation inhibition activities. SOD, CAT and GPX activities were significantly increased in ellagic acid-treated V79-4 cells. Ellagic acid significantly reduced HOS cell proliferation, and induced apoptosis evidenced by chromosomal DNA degradation and apoptotic body appearance. Bax expression was induced and caspase-3 was activated by ellagic acid treatment. CONCLUSION: Ellagic acid exhibited both antioxidant activity in V79-4 cells and apoptosis-inducing activity in HOS cells through the up-regulation of Bax and activation of caspase-3.

PMID: 17094489

Pity that ellagic acid (and several other compounds that elevate catalase) is an inhibitor of tyrosinase, the rate-limiting enzyme for melanin synthesis in hair follicle melanocytes....

[Clacksberg]

Any theory on what causes graying should be able to explain another aspect of graying in at least some people (including me); namely, why do gray hairs have accelerated growth? The gray hairs on my head and body grow at least two or three times faster than the hairs that are still black. The gray hairs also tend to be thicker and, in the case of body hair, grow to a much longer absolute length. Also, gray hairs seem to be resistant to male pattern baldness, unlike the black ones. I don't see how the self-bleaching theory could account for all this - something else is definitely going on here.

Good point, was thinking the same thing.