80 replies to this topic

[TheFountain]

Again, just because death is natural does not make it desirable.

Who the hell is anyone to dictate what 'natural' is? The efforts of scientists to cure diseases is just as 'natural' as the diseases themselves. We need to start speaking to people in this way and to let them know that nature is all inclusive, that all things in existence are natural,whether forged outside our species or not. For humanity IS a product of nature, therefor our products are also a product of nature. duh!

And I am not saying duh to anyone in particular just the cynical idiots who think nature is one thing and one thing only. What barren minds that cannot foresee the aperture opening into the vast domain of possibilities. Sad, pathetic fools, the whole lot of them. I almost want to call them obsolete minded, but then I am feeding the wrong kind of energy. They are obviously a bunch of malcontents, put more simplistically.

Edited by TheFountain, 14 July 2009 - 05:46 PM.

[bacopa]

Russian bear, you have a very low view of humanity, indeed. If you really devalue life that much then there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise. My personal experience is I come from a very positive and progressive moving family, with regards to political, social, and educational views. They instilled in me values that allowed me to embrace life and this universe, such that I wanted to really aim high and make the best out of my life.

When I was 6 or 7, that is when I really wished I could live forever. I guess we are just different people, or instead you once felt like I do and now have found ways to rationalize death as being a good thing, when perhaps you secretly still fear it.

You seem to be a pretty nice, good guy so I wish you the best and won't hold it against you.

[russianBEAR]

Yeah I'm a sociopath for the most part

And foreword - with what you just wrote you are the definition of snobbery that I was talking about. Who the hell are you to say who is a greater or worse asset to humanity? You are a piece of meat with the same basic layout as everybody else And I'm not talking about some political bullshit fad either. The example you gave sounds like you're talking about 18-19 year old kids to me. Of course there's a certain amount of growing you have to do to generate functional ideas and concepts but not 100 years

[bacopa]

Yeah I'm a sociopath for the most part

And foreword - with what you just wrote you are the definition of snobbery that I was talking about. Who the hell are you to say who is a greater or worse asset to humanity? You are a piece of meat with the same basic layout as everybody else And I'm not talking about some political bullshit fad either. The example you gave sounds like you're talking about 18-19 year old kids to me. Of course there's a certain amount of growing you have to do to generate functional ideas and concepts but not 100 years

It is my belief that since humans are the only intelligent animal we know of, (and by intelligent I mean the ability to think logically, have the degree of memory we have, an be able to speak and network with other socially, have the complex emotional states of mind we have,etc), that it is left up to us to decide our own importance. If we didn't we would have no civilization and everyone would die off. If that's ok by you then be my guest. Instead of calling me a snob, you should really be calling all of humanity one collective snob, because of all the things we do to want to stay alive, like exercise, diet, nootropics and supplements, which YOU seem to be so interested in! Kind of ironic I suppose. You seem to be contradicting your dislike of people who have a heightened self worth in this way.

I should note that saving a life or lives has nothing to do with self worth in the negative way you are talking. I don't feel better than you or anyone else, I just wish to live a long, healthy, an happy life. What is so wrong about that?

It shouldn't matter if I am a piece of meat, plastic, metal or whatever. If one values human life then one will try to save it at all costs, imo. I'm not going to further this debate because I've said all I needed to say on the matter, and when I complimented you and called you a good guy, you then called me a snob. I dislike fighting. So let's just leave it at that, and you're entitled, of course, to have your opinions. I know where you stand. Please don't attack me for believing that what I"m doing is a good thing.

Edited by dfowler, 14 July 2009 - 10:39 PM.

[russianBEAR]

Oh damn, I wasn't calling you a snob it was to this poster named foreword, which I indicated by writing that. 

Show me a young, rational, open-minded person, and I will show you an asset to humanity. If he or she has a body and brain that remains youthful and healthy indefinitely, after 100 years passes I'll show you a much greater asset to humanity. 

^

This is what I was talking about - who is he to judge who is an asset to humanity or not when it's not even clear what kind of an asset he is himself.

I'm all about supporting various interests of people, but it's annoying when individuals hop on their high horse talking about assets to humanity and all that bs. 

I wasn't tryin to talk shit to you though, dfowler, you actually have a more balanced view of things than some others here. 

[Oliver_R]

Yes, I think it's due to the fact that until now everyone has always thought death was inevitable, and that's not a good thing, so we have invented coping strategies - religions or various philosophical views about making the most of this one life and focussing on that not thinking about death. If we come along and say MAYBE sometime in the next few decades we will be able to develop technologies to vastly extend or even stop death, then it disrupts people's strategies and makes them think of death -- also we are not saying they can definitely put it off, just that they might possibly be able to. However I suppose it would be easier to get people to accept the idea of science making us all live a bit longer (maybe 120...) and healthier. Even religious people, who you would think would be in a hurry to go to heaven if it is all it is cracked up to be, seem to think a (relatively) long life is a good thing.

Re. celebs coming out in favour of anti-aging, that would be good. In a recent interview I saw on the net with Dawkins he said ideally he would like a couple of hundred years of healthy life. Don't know why he wants to stop at that, but it is in the right direction.

[brokenportal]

Yes, I think it's due to the fact that until now everyone has always thought death was inevitable, and that's not a good thing, so we have invented coping strategies - religions or various philosophical views about making the most of this one life and focussing on that not thinking about death. If we come along and say MAYBE sometime in the next few decades we will be able to develop technologies to vastly extend or even stop death, then it disrupts people's strategies and makes them think of death -- also we are not saying they can definitely put it off, just that they might possibly be able to. However I suppose it would be easier to get people to accept the idea of science making us all live a bit longer (maybe 120...) and healthier. Even religious people, who you would think would be in a hurry to go to heaven if it is all it is cracked up to be, seem to think a (relatively) long life is a good thing.

Re. celebs coming out in favour of anti-aging, that would be good. In a recent interview I saw on the net with Dawkins he said ideally he would like a couple of hundred years of healthy life. Don't know why he wants to stop at that, but it is in the right direction.

Something many of us are coming to realize, this could be wrong but, it seems like getting through to people is just as easy as informing them. Some people talk of a pro aging trance, some talk of out right rejection and perpetual ridicule no matter what we do, but I think that when we slow down and look at it, we can and do and continue to get through to people more and more, the more we inform them. We cant expect to get people to support the cause all in one go. Give them time, let it absorb, get more information out to them, keep it up, its working, we are getting through.

Of course it seems like a lot of people dont support this right now, but dont let that tell you the product is bad. As many people as do werent going to drink Coca Cola either until the world wide stream of marketing was unleashed for it. We can get people to have an allegience to certain kinds of soda water, certain pop celebrities who chant about mumbo jumbo on the radio, to steeples dedicated to invisible deities in the sky, we can and will get through to them about wanting their lives, about this cause.

We can, we will, we are. Keep your head up, keep marching forward, one step at a time, we are getting there. The more we march the more there are that join us. Our army will be vast and the stamping will echo to the ears of the entire world. Like Coke, and Brittany Spears have done, except that we have a much much better, much much more logical product, and it will sell. It will, we are getting there.

Orlando, one of many projects taking more and more root around here is a VIP outreach forum led by people like Dfowler and SVyff. If you want to get in on that then let me, or any of us know.

[Oliver_R]

Re, atheists being skeptical, there was a poll on the Richard Dawkins site about longevity where more than half of the respondents said they wanted to live forever, as I said here
poll

Also, 70% of those polled wanted to live at least 200 years, and potentially another 14% who said they wanted to go on living as long as they had high vitality -- so about 84% potentially are interested in life extension

Edited by orlando, 03 August 2009 - 10:45 AM.

[kurt9]

Well, one can easily argue that LE in itself is negative, because it's a product of fear. Ultimately one of the biggest fears is the fear of death, of the inevitable. 

I personally just don't think any living being on this planet is important enough to warrant habitating this earth for longer than it's average lifespan, there needs to be a life and death cycle and constant refreshment of the species so to speak. 

No matter how hard you try, at the end you really can't cheat mother nature so I think accepting your mortality is really the ultimate comfort you can achieve. 

The young generation needs its chance to shine, I can imagine I'd be quite a stubborn snob set in my ways if I was 105 or older And if everyone was like that there would be a bunch of uptight, uncreative old people who are full of supplements, but really should be long full of embalming fluid in some grave



What you can try instead is believe in rebirth so that way you know once this physical body of yours dies, then your soul will be back and you'll be brand new soon again

You're obviously not a part of our target market. I guess the question of the originator of this thread should be changed to how to more effectively filter out the people who are interested in healthy life extension from those who are not in any given group of atheists/agnostics.

Edited by kurt9, 03 August 2009 - 04:23 PM.

[n25philly]

Anyone who says that they are pro aging is lying to themselves. The world is already pro-life extension, it's just a matter of people like us making them realize it. If the world was really pro aging, why do we try to cure cancer, AIDS, and every other disease that has reared it's ugly head?If everyone really believed that death is natural and we are meant to die when we are meant to die then we should just step aside and let these diseases have their way with us. Hell, let's get rid of cold and flu medicine, after all they are interfering with natural things. The whole point of medicine and the medical field is to allow people to live the longest healthiest lives possible. Unless someone is against all of medicine then they are simply just contradicting themselves and human culture when they say they are against human culture.

I personally think the reason they do it is not because they don't believe it's right, but because they don't believe it's possible. As soon as there is physical proof that can't be denied that this is possible, we will see a huge shift in opinion in our favor. It's human nature. Mankind tends to not believe things that aren't proven. It's easy to see life extension, especially to the degree we see it as pure fantasy and dreaming. The sooner we see real results the sooner we will see the following we really need to make this happen.

I personally see myself dieing someday. I don't think we will ever be able to escape death 100%. I do want to live as long as I possibly can, whether that is 80 or 800.

[kurt9]

dfowler,

I think you are assuming that atheists/agnostics, just because they are not into doctrinal Christianity, are necessarily going to be pro-technology, libertarian sorts of people. Do realize that the luddite green type people are, by and large, atheists with regards to Christianity. Also, most liberal-left types are as well. My experience with the liberal-left types that I know personally is that they are interested in healthy life extension, but think its a pipe dream at this time. Given that they are almost exclusively liberal arts types, I am not surprised they think this.

I know of more that one person active in cryonics who thinks that we have more in common with certain Christian right types than we do with typical liberal-left atheist types.

My personal experience is that the people most open to the possibility of radical life extension are the expats. Particularly Americans living in various Asian countries. Radical life extension is about living an open-ended life (I call it the personal version of "the undiscovered country") where you always go out and do new things and meet new people. Where you live your life free of the fixed boundaries of the conventional life cycle of a fixed time and place. Expats are the closest living analogues to post-mortals in that they actually enjoy living such a life. This is the reason why I think the best target markets for life extension and, especially, cryonics are the expats.

I think this is the real psychological divide between those who seek to become post-mortal as compared to those who are satisfied living the conventional life cycle. RussianBear's comments are quite representative of the attitudes of people who live in the place I grew up in and have never left. They really do view life as a fixed pattern lived with a fixed set of family and friends and who derive happiness and meaning from this. These are people who would never leave their home town. I honestly believe that the concept of radical life extension (post-mortality) is completely alien to these people and actually does not make sense to them as far as allowing them to get what they want from life.

While living in Japan, I met these two guys from Spain who happened to be in Japan for two weeks for an on-site equipment install. After telling them about my life and how I had lived in Japan for 4 years (at that time), they both looked at me and told me that there is no way they could ever do that. They were too attached to their life at home in Spain. Now I know Spain is quite a nice place and I can certainly understand where they are coming from. Nonetheless, this is representative of the psychological gulf between those who go out into the world for new life and adventure and those who stay home with existing friends and family. I believe this is the same psychological gulf between those who are interested in post-mortality and seek to make it to the undiscovered country to come, and those who seek to live the fixed pattern life at home.

I am not the least bit pajorative of RussianBear's opinion. I think he really believes this and is quite happy with it. That's fine by me, as long as he does not attempt to use the corrupt force of government to impose his choices on me or anyone else who does not share them. I see no reason why post-mortals and conventionals cannot peacefully coexist within a globalized economy. Given the "expat-like" character of post-mortals, it is likely they will tend to concentrate in trading city-state like places like Singapore and Hong Kong, whereas people like RussianBear will tend to live in their national equivalents to, say, Spokane Washington.

Instead of focusing on the atheist/religious breakdown, it would be more fruitful to focus on the expat/stay at home breakdown.

[JefFlyingV]

I wouldn't say I am against extending human lifespans and I do believe it will occur in the future. I do have concerns on how extended life will impact the world population and the impact it will have on world ecosystems.

[n25philly]

dfowler,

I think you are assuming that atheists/agnostics, just because they are not into doctrinal Christianity, are necessarily going to be pro-technology, libertarian sorts of people. Do realize that the luddite green type people are, by and large, atheists with regards to Christianity. Also, most liberal-left types are as well. My experience with the liberal-left types that I know personally is that they are interested in healthy life extension, but think its a pipe dream at this time. Given that they are almost exclusively liberal arts types, I am not surprised they think this.

I know of more that one person active in cryonics who thinks that we have more in common with certain Christian right types than we do with typical liberal-left atheist types.

My personal experience is that the people most open to the possibility of radical life extension are the expats. Particularly Americans living in various Asian countries. Radical life extension is about living an open-ended life (I call it the personal version of "the undiscovered country") where you always go out and do new things and meet new people. Where you live your life free of the fixed boundaries of the conventional life cycle of a fixed time and place. Expats are the closest living analogues to post-mortals in that they actually enjoy living such a life. This is the reason why I think the best target markets for life extension and, especially, cryonics are the expats.

I think this is the real psychological divide between those who seek to become post-mortal as compared to those who are satisfied living the conventional life cycle. RussianBear's comments are quite representative of the attitudes of people who live in the place I grew up in and have never left. They really do view life as a fixed pattern lived with a fixed set of family and friends and who derive happiness and meaning from this. These are people who would never leave their home town. I honestly believe that the concept of radical life extension (post-mortality) is completely alien to these people and actually does not make sense to them as far as allowing them to get what they want from life.

While living in Japan, I met these two guys from Spain who happened to be in Japan for two weeks for an on-site equipment install. After telling them about my life and how I had lived in Japan for 4 years (at that time), they both looked at me and told me that there is no way they could ever do that. They were too attached to their life at home in Spain. Now I know Spain is quite a nice place and I can certainly understand where they are coming from. Nonetheless, this is representative of the psychological gulf between those who go out into the world for new life and adventure and those who stay home with existing friends and family. I believe this is the same psychological gulf between those who are interested in post-mortality and seek to make it to the undiscovered country to come, and those who seek to live the fixed pattern life at home.

I am not the least bit pajorative of RussianBear's opinion. I think he really believes this and is quite happy with it. That's fine by me, as long as he does not attempt to use the corrupt force of government to impose his choices on me or anyone else who does not share them. I see no reason why post-mortals and conventionals cannot peacefully coexist within a globalized economy. Given the "expat-like" character of post-mortals, it is likely they will tend to concentrate in trading city-state like places like Singapore and Hong Kong, whereas people like RussianBear will tend to live in their national equivalents to, say, Spokane Washington.

Instead of focusing on the atheist/religious breakdown, it would be more fruitful to focus on the expat/stay at home breakdown.

Very well put, but I don't know if I agree. I've done some traveling in my time, as I've gone to school for a time in Canada, and I have a sister living in Mexico. Right now I have very strong ties to where I live and have very, very little interest in moving anywhere in the near and likely distant future. My life is not exactly adventurous, and I kind of like it that way. I see extended and possibly endless life about possibilities.

For me mainly I want it because I do not want to be separated from those that are important to me. My parents are both in their sixties, and I want something like SENS to take off because I want these things to start happening in their lifetime. I don't want to lose them if I don't have to. Both of my parents were recently told that their blood pressure is a little high, and ever since I spend a decent amount of time researching things that will help them lower their blood pressure because if there is a chance that life extension can come in their lifetime, then I want to help keep them around for it.

I'm 29, and as long as I take care of myself and stay lucky enough to avoid a fatal accident I think that I will be around for some kind of life extension. I don't know if it will be extension to the point I want, but every little bit is better than nothing. I want to see how my two nephews turn out on their 100th birthdays. I don't want to just see my future children grow up as well as my grand children and great grandchildren and so on. To me that is more important than any adventure could possibly ever be.

I see all of this as being less about what we gain as far as adventure and what not, but more about what we have to lose. Hell, I would love it if these things develop quick enough to keep my cat in the game, because I just love the way he cuddles up tight with me every night when I go to bed.

[brokenportal]

Mankind tends to not believe things that aren't proven. It's easy to see life extension, especially to the degree we see it as pure fantasy and dreaming. The sooner we see real results the sooner we will see the following we really need to make this happen.

I could be wrong of course, but it seems that there may be a sort of 'pro aging trance trance' forming in the life extension community. I used to see non supporters mostly in terms of it myself. What it seems is happening though is that many people are in some sort of pro aging trance from one degree to another, but that also many more are just uninformed.

Better results will help a lot, but continuing to inform people is helping and will help a lot more too.

Billions of poeple beleive in some form of an invisible diety that lives in the sky, so it seems that they dont tend to not beleive in things that aren't proven. They beleive things for many reasons like because people told them to, because they dont have time to sort out every choice on their own, because the crowd said so, because they were informed enough to think about the big picture, because thats the devils advocate side they picked first, because somebody they want to 'beat' beleives the opposite, etc... people "beleive" things for a lot of different reasons.

They can beleive in this indefinite healthy life extension cause, they will beleive in this, they do beleive in this, they are beleiving in this more and more every day. Work on getting through to people in every form of getting through to them that you can. Find the keys for the right crowds, guage what works best with who, and continue disseminating information so that more people start bumping into it more and more. I think thats part of the key.

Edited by brokenportal, 03 August 2009 - 06:38 PM.

[brokenportal]

Radical life extension is about living an open-ended life (I call it the personal version of "the undiscovered country") where you always go out and do new things and meet new people. Where you live your life free of the fixed boundaries of the conventional life cycle of a fixed time and place. Expats are the closest living analogues to post-mortals in that they actually enjoy living such a life.

This is an interesting point. Im going to have to look into this and try to help test it myself. Maybe try getting through to foreign exchange program students and groups like that.

I wouldn't say I am against extending human lifespans and I do believe it will occur in the future. I do have concerns on how extended life will impact the world population and the impact it will have on world ecosystems.

We know Jef, Just like when you create a car you put a Cadalidic converter on it and put a seat belt in it and go and set it up so it has to get registered and things like that, we know that those things are part of the package. We can assure you we havent forgoten, we work on those things too. If you have concerns, then great, join the teams that are working on those things.

Like n25 elludes to, remember the bottom line here, your parents are dying, your dying, lets get this done, move forward. We can theorize and guess and critisize and what if and maybe this and maybe that all day but at the end of the day we have to all have done something about it. If we all, as many do, continue to do something about it every day then we will get there, and we are getting there, slowly at first, more excelleratingly over time, and surely.

[kurt9]

Nice replies, guys.

I would have to say that my interest in life extension came about from two different approaches. First, I grew up in a rather conservative place, where people got married young and lived the "set" life. I wanted something more than this. I became very obsessed with living in what I perceived at the cosmopolitan, outwardly oriented young adult society that the sunbelt cities represented to me in my teenaged mind at the time. I was not into live extension at that time because I never thought about it. While in college I found that I liked being physiologically young and decided that growing old (e.g. aging process) really sucked donkey dicks and that therefor I wanted nothing to do with it. Later, I moved to SoCal and lived very much the open life that I dreamed about as a teenager. In fact, it was even better than I expected as a teenager. Later, I lived as expat in Asia for 10 years. My experiences as an expat were very much the logical extension of my experiences of the young adult life in the Sunbelt. My desire for openness and freedom grew and grew and, along with it, my desire to get free of the aging process and the limitations that it imposes.

For me, life extension is about breaking free the shackles of living according to the dictates of the conventional life cycle. This is what it is ALL about for me. I see no point to an indefinitely long youthful lifespan if I had to live in one particular place for ever and ever.

This summarized how I came to be interested in radical life extension. Others of you may have come to it differently than I.

The reason why I think expats are a good target market is because the few times I have talked about cryonics and radical life extension in various expat hang out bars, the response has generally been fairly positive. One guy started talking about all of the different places he would like to live in, 5 years at a time. He was quite enthusiastic about life extension. This guy was not a techno-geek at all (he was a sourcing aging for a U.S. clothing wholesaler). Another guy who was quite turned on about the whole prospect of life extension was a financial analyst (this was in a bar in Taipei) with an Asian bank (the guy was white American). Most people I talk about radical life extension to here in the states look at me as though I am totally off the wall. They think its not possible or flaky.

Most of the positive responses I have gotten were from American expats. The European expats I know are definitely less interested in radical life extension than the Americans. I would guess by his namesake that RussianBear is from Russia and, thusly, has more the attitude that I have accoutered among the European expats that I have discussed this with. This is no surprise to me.

Perhaps radical life extension is more of the "American" thing, much like the L-5 Society and the space colony meme was during its heyday in the late 70's. If so, this suggests that radical life extension is more appealing to those of a pioneering cultural mindset (which we have but the Europeans definitely do NOT have at all). The venn diagram intersect of these two groups are American expats.

Perhaps Australians may have interest in radical life extension. Some Australian surfers I met in Malaysia thought the idea of life extension was totally cool. However, some of the Australian English teachers I mentioned it to in Japan were not so much into it. One lady was actually hostile towards it (she said some mumble-jumble about it being "immoral"). However, another Australian lady (she was smoking hot!) was totally into it that she was planning to check out the cryonics scene and the insurance to pay for it. It is worth noting that Australia was the only country other than the U.S. that has multiple active chapters of L-5 Society during its heyday.

So maybe the target market is American expats and Australians who are either surfers or smoking hot women!

[n25philly]

I wouldn't say I am against extending human lifespans and I do believe it will occur in the future. I do have concerns on how extended life will impact the world population and the impact it will have on world ecosystems.

Well, wouldn't it be fair to say that if we stop aging and find ways to give everyone that wants it indefinite health lifespans that we could take the resources we are currently using on things like disease research and healthcare and put them towards moving on past Earth? I think that either way we are bound to at some point move on whether it's a space station or some far off planet we simply just can't reach at this point. The best way to make things things happen is to find a reason to have them. If we do end up with overpopulation resource issues, I am fully confident that we will be able to solve those issues as well. We've got to have something to keep the science community busy after all. Besides, we'll have today's best minds as well as tomorrows working together, how could we not succeed?

[kurt9]

More on expats:

Something like 80% of the American expats I knew were pretty much libertarian. 20% were liberal-left. I don't think I encountered a single religious-right American the whole 10 years I lived in Asia. One thing I liked about the expats is that they were cool with whatever you were, even if it was different from them. For example, I had a friend (a hispanic NY attorney) who I used to party a lot with in the Roppongi. One day I mentioned cryonics and radical life extension to him. He told me that he was not into it because he is Catholic, but thought that it was totally cool and that I should go for it. Not like many people back home in the U.S.

I've noticed that many people here have a streak of intolerance in them. The liberal-left get upset if you are libertarian or Christian right. Christian right people get upset if you are liberal or libertarian. Mike Treder's recent diatribe against Peter Thiel's seasteading article is a classic example. Mike Treder, being liberal-left, clearly has a bug up his ass with the idea of people who do not share his political worldview going somewhere else (e.g. oceans, space) and creating a different kind of society. This kind of intolerance seems to be very common here among people of both the left and the right. Same with all of the anti-life extension rhetoric we get from all of the deathists. it is one thing to decide that life extension is not "your thing". It is an entirely different (and unacceptable) thing for you to deny others the right to make that choice for themselves. This kind of intolerance has no place in the modern world.

[brokenportal]

Kurt, as a quick easy fun starter team to get in on, can I convince you to consider joining the internetworking team? There are others we could get into, but thats a good starter. It requires minimal input per month, it bends to your time and you can leave the team at any time.

The biggest incentives are that of course, it helps the cause, and biggest of all, most crucial and pivital is that it inspires more people to join teams.

Then some of the smaller incentives are that your name will be published in the imminst newsletter, and you will be entered in the volunteer prize drawings as long as you are on the team.

You can help us market a bit more to these xpats there. This isnt the best way and place to do that, but like I said its a good starter. A little action in this fun team can go a long long ways for helping alleviate more of those people that may be cynical about LE. At this stage in the game of this cause, its the little things that are the big things.

[n25philly]

The more I think about it the more I believe it's not the goal that causes people to be cynical about it. Lately when I talk to people about the cause I focus on the aging related diseases being cured with extended lifespans being more of a byproduct. At this point death is too expected by everyone, so I think it can be hard for people to wrap their minds around lifespans that are past what is currently normal. Now talk to someone who had a love one slowly die of a certain disease, and then tell them that curing aging can potentially eradicate that disease and they are much more receptive to it because it's a bit easier for them to relate to.

[russianBEAR]

Anyone who says that they are pro aging is lying to themselves. The world is already pro-life extension, it's just a matter of people like us making them realize it. If the world was really pro aging, why do we try to cure cancer, AIDS, and every other disease that has reared it's ugly head?If everyone really believed that death is natural and we are meant to die when we are meant to die then we should just step aside and let these diseases have their way with us. Hell, let's get rid of cold and flu medicine, after all they are interfering with natural things. The whole point of medicine and the medical field is to allow people to live the longest healthiest lives possible. Unless someone is against all of medicine then they are simply just contradicting themselves and human culture when they say they are against human culture.

I personally think the reason they do it is not because they don't believe it's right, but because they don't believe it's possible. As soon as there is physical proof that can't be denied that this is possible, we will see a huge shift in opinion in our favor. It's human nature. Mankind tends to not believe things that aren't proven. It's easy to see life extension, especially to the degree we see it as pure fantasy and dreaming. The sooner we see real results the sooner we will see the following we really need to make this happen.

I personally see myself dieing someday. I don't think we will ever be able to escape death 100%. I do want to live as long as I possibly can, whether that is 80 or 800.

Death, just like life is functional. They are both equal in function and both necessary. Of course when it's your ass you want to sort of do and strive towards what feels right, with no regard for anything but your own fears. See, animals are smart, and a lot of them leave the "troop" to the younger ones and go off to die alone. They don't tend to act on emotions such as fear, they do what's necessary and what's functional.


Trust me we don't need resource hogs here that are like 800 years old, with their horse and buggy ideas by then. Either that or they'll just be bio-robots. Something about that scenario screams disaster to me.

I'm not really a target audience here though, I have conservative back to basics views that only the few of the wisest minds on the planet totally agree with. 

It's like that old Russian tale with two birds meeting each other, one is some scavenger who lives for hundreds of years and another is some small bird that lives like 10. And they talk, and the moral of the story is "you can eat shit that others leave behind for a century, or you can have all the fun in the world, enjoying its beauty in a decade".

You should think about that.

[brokenportal]

Neither death nor life is necessary. Choose which that you will. Choose death if you want, thats fine. We dont need to be dead though and we dont intend to go down with out a fight.

By your definition, everybody is a resource hog. Thats non sequitor. Not being able to shake horse and buggy ideas... Show us some data to back up the idea that old people can not and do not innovate and think and do new things.

Something about being dead seems like a disaster to me.

You should think about this parable that Im just about to make up,

A bird flew around for 1,000 years past this space in time, and one that was born 6 months ago died today. They both met in an after life. The bird that lived for 1,000 years said,

"I remember a guy once said that the longer you live the shittier the life you have. I lived on for another 1,000 years after you. I saw space travel, virtual reality, plane flights for dirt cheap, robots that made thinking and innovating on beaches of choice the thing to do. Would you have rather have had your 6 month life or mine little bird?"

To which the little bird replied, "Yours."

But, like you say, we arent in sync with the wisest minds on the planet like you are, so we are probably wrong.

Death, just like life is functional. They are both equal in function and both necessary. Of course when it's your ass you want to sort of do and strive towards what feels right, with no regard for anything but your own fears. See, animals are smart, and a lot of them leave the "troop" to the younger ones and go off to die alone. They don't tend to act on emotions such as fear, they do what's necessary and what's functional.


Trust me we don't need resource hogs here that are like 800 years old, with their horse and buggy ideas by then. Either that or they'll just be bio-robots. Something about that scenario screams disaster to me.

I'm not really a target audience here though, I have conservative back to basics views that only the few of the wisest minds on the planet totally agree with. 

It's like that old Russian tale with two birds meeting each other, one is some scavenger who lives for hundreds of years and another is some small bird that lives like 10. And they talk, and the moral of the story is "you can eat shit that others leave behind for a century, or you can have all the fun in the world, enjoying its beauty in a decade".

You should think about that.

Edited by brokenportal, 06 August 2009 - 12:22 AM.

[brokenportal]

The more I think about it the more I believe it's not the goal that causes people to be cynical about it. Lately when I talk to people about the cause I focus on the aging related diseases being cured with extended lifespans being more of a byproduct. At this point death is too expected by everyone, so I think it can be hard for people to wrap their minds around lifespans that are past what is currently normal. Now talk to someone who had a love one slowly die of a certain disease, and then tell them that curing aging can potentially eradicate that disease and they are much more receptive to it because it's a bit easier for them to relate to.

There are many ways to get through to people. We used to face brick walls too, but many of us are finding more and more ways to get through to people. I dont see that wall at all any more. Vgamer and I had started a project to create a quiz for "Combatting the Pro Aging Trance". Its now changed a bit so its "Combatting the Pro Aging Trance and the Uninformed" If you want to get in on that and help facilitate and push the project along then let me know. There are a lot of different ways, big or small, that I can help you get in on with that.

[russianBEAR]

Neither death nor life is necessary. Choose which that you will. Choose death if you want, thats fine. We dont need to be dead though and we dont intend to go down with out a fight.

By your definition, everybody is a resource hog. Thats non sequitor. Not being able to shake horse and buggy ideas... Show us some data to back up the idea that old people can not and do not innovate and think and do new things.

Something about being dead seems like a disaster to me.

You should think about this parable that Im just about to make up,

A bird flew around for 1,000 years past this space in time, and one that was born 6 months ago died today. They both met in an after life. The bird that lived for 1,000 years said,

"I remember a guy once said that the longer you live the shittier the life you have. I lived on for another 1,000 years after you. I saw space travel, virtual reality, plane flights for dirt cheap, robots that made thinking and innovating on beaches of choice the thing to do. Would you have rather have had your 6 month life or mine little bird?"

To which the little bird replied, "Yours."

But, like you say, we arent in sync with the wisest minds on the planet like you are, so we are probably wrong.

The last line is spot on sir, and birds are much wiser than humans and realize perfectly well how unnecessary dirt cheap flights and robots really are to the life experience of living organisms  

I reckon you love your Supreme Court justices if you're in the US - they think so outside the box, they don't even know what a box is. Now multiply their age by two, maybe three...it's not gonna get better, even if there's no "brain fog". Everybody IS a resource hog, and they need to get off their piece eventually and let others have a bite. Think of an athlete that doesn't want to retire because he thinks he "still got it" while an excellent young talent is rotting away on the bench, because this older guy has the coaches and all staff in his back pocket. 

What I'm talking about here is ideas in politics, law and other areas, not just that older people aren't innovative thinkers. Imagine what would happen if a 500 year old politician holds office for an adjusted time of say 10-20 years and then gets a couple runs at it. That would be one very stale political stable to say the least. And once they're in power, it's a high stronger than anything else so they want to keep it. 


Nature is cyclical in its nature (pun intended) so life and death are both equally functional. The arrogance of the human race is what kills me - the majority have completely forgotten they are a part of nature, and think they can rewrite natural laws and say what's needed and what's not.

That kind of shortsightedness and lack of wisdom is what leads to major disasters.

What's worse is I see phrases like "trying to get through to people". Kind of like those religious nuts that you love around here, they always try to "get through to people" and don't want to hear anything that doesn't mesh with their views.

I think from now on I'll just rant on how I'm not getting through to people and how they are all "science nuts" or "nanotechnology nazis" or some other nice media-friendly term.

Edited by russianBEAR, 06 August 2009 - 08:29 AM.

[n25philly]

Neither death nor life is necessary. Choose which that you will. Choose death if you want, thats fine. We dont need to be dead though and we dont intend to go down with out a fight.

By your definition, everybody is a resource hog. Thats non sequitor. Not being able to shake horse and buggy ideas... Show us some data to back up the idea that old people can not and do not innovate and think and do new things.

Something about being dead seems like a disaster to me.

You should think about this parable that Im just about to make up,

A bird flew around for 1,000 years past this space in time, and one that was born 6 months ago died today. They both met in an after life. The bird that lived for 1,000 years said,

"I remember a guy once said that the longer you live the shittier the life you have. I lived on for another 1,000 years after you. I saw space travel, virtual reality, plane flights for dirt cheap, robots that made thinking and innovating on beaches of choice the thing to do. Would you have rather have had your 6 month life or mine little bird?"

To which the little bird replied, "Yours."

But, like you say, we arent in sync with the wisest minds on the planet like you are, so we are probably wrong.

The last line is spot on sir, and birds are much wiser than humans and realize perfectly well how unnecessary dirt cheap flights and robots really are to the life experience of living organisms

I reckon you love your Supreme Court justices if you're in the US - they think so outside the box, they don't even know what a box is. Now multiply their age by two, maybe three...it's not gonna get better, even if there's no "brain fog". Everybody IS a resource hog, and they need to get off their piece eventually and let others have a bite. Think of an athlete that doesn't want to retire because he thinks he "still got it" while an excellent young talent is rotting away on the bench, because this older guy has the coaches and all staff in his back pocket.

What I'm talking about here is ideas in politics, law and other areas, not just that older people aren't innovative thinkers. Imagine what would happen if a 500 year old politician holds office for an adjusted time of say 10-20 years and then gets a couple runs at it. That would be one very stale political stable to say the least. And once they're in power, it's a high stronger than anything else so they want to keep it.


Nature is cyclical in its nature (pun intended) so life and death are both equally functional. The arrogance of the human race is what kills me - the majority have completely forgotten they are a part of nature, and think they can rewrite natural laws and say what's needed and what's not.

That kind of shortsightedness and lack of wisdom is what leads to major disasters.

What's worse is I see phrases like "trying to get through to people". Kind of like those religious nuts that you love around here, they always try to "get through to people" and don't want to hear anything that doesn't mesh with their views.

I think from now on I'll just rant on how I'm not getting through to people and how they are all "science nuts" or "nanotechnology nazis" or some other nice media-friendly term.

Yes, and if all you do is blindly look at only one side of the equation of course it's going to look bad. Athletes that hang on? Imagine if Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky could play for another 1000 years instead of being mere legends the kids of the future just heard of. Imagine that best and brightest the world has to offer gets another 900+ years to learn, be creative, and come up with new ideas? For every bad idea there is at least one good one on the other side. Society will adjust. But I just have to ask, if you hate life so much, why are you on this site?

[russianBEAR]

Where did I ever, in my posts here, say the phrase "I hate life" with words in that exact order? 

I can't really find it. Just because I don't want everybody sticking around way past their intended expiration date doesn't mean that I reject the whole notion of living.

And as much as I was thrilled watching MJ in his prime and even went to see him later when he was in DC, if he stuck around for 1000 years, would someone like ... LeBron James and a host of other new generation stars get to shine ? Not really...

Every person has a fear of death that's also perfectly normal. But fear does not = common sense. I have no problem enjoying life and everything that's part of it, with the inevitable end making things that much more meaningful.

If you had all the time in the world, why do anything? You are not really pushed at all, I think that's what makes us tick anyways (pun intended).

I believe that it all comes back to comsic energy, so when I go I'll get recycled hopefully.

I came to this forum because I was looking for new info on cerebrolysine, then found this site and realized you guys needed to be filled in on certain nootropics, and I was a huge expert on that in my day. I'm not really a supporter of this whole movement, but if someone comes up with some life extension I'll take it just to be there 600 years later when all has gone to hell to say: I told ya so !

Edited by russianBEAR, 06 August 2009 - 05:41 PM.

[n25philly]

Where did I ever, in my posts here, say the phrase "I hate life" with words in that exact order?

I can't really find it. Just because I don't want everybody sticking around way past their intended expiration date doesn't mean that I reject the whole notion of living.

And as much as I was thrilled watching MJ in his prime and even went to see him later when he was in DC, if he stuck around for 1000 years, would someone like ... LeBron James and a host of other new generation stars get to shine ? Not really...

Every person has a fear of death that's also perfectly normal. But fear does not = common sense. I have no problem enjoying life and everything that's part of it, with the inevitable end making things that much more meaningful.

If you had all the time in the world, why do anything? You are not really pushed at all, I think that's what makes us tick anyways (pun intended).

I believe that it all comes back to comsic energy, so when I go I'll get recycled hopefully.

I came to this forum because I was looking for new info on cerebrolysine, then found this site and realized you guys needed to be filled in on certain nootropics, and I was a huge expert on that in my day. I'm not really a supporter of this whole movement, but if someone comes up with some life extension I'll take it just to be there 600 years later when all has gone to hell to say: I told ya so !

We're all a waste of resources is meant to say that it's a good thing that we are alive, right? I'm not trying to get into an argument of who is write or wrong, because time twill answer that one in time. You just sound really out of place here.

[brokenportal]

Hey, can we all calm down with giving so many responses? Lets all peace out and X ourselves out of life, stop paying our hospitals bills, stop avoiding infection and viruses and stuff, stop looking both ways before we cross the street and all that so that we can hurry up and die and get out of the way, so some new fresh minds can get in this topic here and have a chance. Hoggin up all the space in here, what are ya, wise guys? Scat, beat it.

Edited by brokenportal, 06 August 2009 - 11:28 PM.

[Cyberbrain]

Hi all! Just wanted to pop in and add some things on bioluddites. I should have brought this up earlier. There are 2 type of bioluddites.

Right-wing bioluddites: opposed to transhumanism on the bases of religion and traditionalism.
Arguments:
-It's against god/supernatural forces
-Change will destroy society...better to keep things static
-Etc

Left-wing bioluddits: mostly secular folks who oppose transhumanism on naturalistic and social arguments.
Arguments:
-Technology goes against nature and the natural "order" of things
-Transhumanist technologies will only benefit the elite
-Brave New World, Dystopian, Gatacca and Frankenstein arguments

Overall these people are just normal people who have been unconsciously conditioned by their environment. Once transhumanism becomes mainstream by the acceleration of technological progress, everyone will support life extension due to the overwhelming peer pressure.

[russianBEAR]

Yall have never heard of a middle ground have you ? It's either taking anything and everything in stacks that could possibly increase your lifespan and trying to get a sect-like following by finding ways to convince certain target groups or it's sitting around waiting to die right away and care as little for your well-being as possible.

Also why give so much emotional meaning to phrases like "resource hogs". Yeah you consume tons upon tons of various resources, ain't nothing wrong with that. Just make sure you move over so others get a slice.

With this LE, you are all only thinkin about your individual gain, not humanity as a whole. If any of yall cared for mankind, you wouldn't be trying to so selfishly deny others life by exetending yours and turning into some celibate bio robot with titan receptors

Edited by brokenportal, 07 August 2009 - 07:06 AM.