40 replies to this topic

[Reeve Treaty]

I'm sorry I don't exactly understand what you are talking about, but it sounds like a discussion about whether or not it is okay to commit suicide? If that is the case, this is my response: No one who is going to kill themselves will care and no one important is listening to those who do care. Suicide is okay because if there is a god then everything which takes place throughout all time is entirely under his control including us killing ourselves so he killed us through ourselves. If god doesn't exist, then it is still okay. Either way, I'm afraid I will have to rate this to be yet another topic only relevant in the minds of "beginner philosophers." I enjoyed thinking about how to answer it though. Two thumbs up for giving a fun question!

[rollo]

Some arguments one can think about when debating deathists who uses religion as a tool to apologize for death.

1. is your current life really so extremely bad that it's necessary to die and get another life in another dimension to reach "peace"?

2. death is bad, not good, otherwise people wouldn't be crying at funerals.

3. why is it so important to replace person A with B?

4. If preventing death is to play god, why did then god give us the possibilities to do so? If god didn't want us to do something, why did he then create us with the ability to do so?

One of the stupidest posts I've ever read...

[Oliver_R]

Another thing worth knowing is that the early CHristians were not very interested in "dying and going to Heaven." They were expecting Jesus to come back and to transform their bodies to immortal ones and create a new Kingdom of God on Earth, a kind of mixture of Heaven and Earth - and those Christians who had died waiting would be resurrected. This idea still exists in modern Christianity, in the "Final Judgment" and "Resurrection of the body", but tends to be overlooked in favour of people thinking of their souls going to Heaven.

[kismet]

One of the stupidest posts I've ever read...

One of the most vacuous posts I read in a long time. I second his questions. It's those simply questions that are eye-openers, like Dawkin's famous "Why not worship [insert other god highly worshipped or long forgotten]?"

Edited by kismet, 05 October 2009 - 09:38 PM.

[Oliver_R]

Yes, they seem like good questions to me as well

[Esoparagon]

I think these arguments are all stupid. The modern religions state that heaven is eternal bliss free from wanting and suffering and filled with unimaginable pleasure. Why would someone who truly believes this not want to die? I totally understand why they want to die believing that.

[Esoparagon]

deleted

Edited by Esoparagon, 10 October 2009 - 07:38 AM.

[fatboy]

Some arguments one can think about when debating deathists who uses religion as a tool to apologize for death.

1. is your current life really so extremely bad that it's necessary to die and get another life in another dimension to reach "peace"?

Nope.

2. death is bad, not good, otherwise people wouldn't be crying at funerals.

Nope.

3. why is it so important to replace person A with B?

It's not. But the realization that everyone of us is replaceable is important.

4. If preventing death is to play god, why did then god give us the possibilities to do so?

Preventing death is to be God.

If god didn't want us to do something, why did he then create us with the ability to do so?

Because it did want us to do it.

[fatboy]

I think it is important to make them attempt to defend the weaker points suggested by their belief structure:

1. Would you accept a treatment to keep you alive 10 years longer?

Yes!

Why not 100 years?

Even better!

2. If suicide is wrong, is it wrong to refuse a treatment to delay or eliminate aging?

Suicide is not "wrong," it is the personal decision.

3. Could it possibly be immoral (murder) to oppose anti-aging research? (Compare to anti-cancer research.)

Yes and yes.

4. If they revived a person after cryosuspension with no side effects, would this prove that their soul was still there? Or would it mean God created them a new one?

Neither.

1. Why did God choose not to reveal any of the answers to these vital present-day issues in the scriptures?

Because God is still waiting for us to create it.

2. Would you expect him to send you a personal divine inspiration on how to answer these questions?

Damn right, I would.

3. Is logic God's voice talking to you? (Ref: John 1:1 "The Logos was with God and the Logos was God.")

Indeed, it is.

Edited by fatboy, 19 October 2009 - 03:24 AM.

[cranquar]

Some arguments one can think about when debating deathists who uses religion as a tool to apologize for death.

1. is your current life really so extremely bad that it's necessary to die and get another life in another dimension to reach "peace"?

2. death is bad, not good, otherwise people wouldn't be crying at funerals.

3. why is it so important to replace person A with B?

4. If preventing death is to play god, why did then god give us the possibilities to do so? If god didn't want us to do something, why did he then create us with the ability to do so?

About point 4: mabey God wants us to prevent aging, death, but they still know it yet.

I thoroughly agree JediMaster, for even the scriptures support that death is an enemy, and that the wise seek to escape the snares of death. I see that it is the churches that still lack the faith in the written Word of God, to preach the truth that the one thing God want to give us is Immortality. And it's not just one scripture that relays this information...please see below....take care, and thank you....Cynthia

The Blessing of the Word of God - 08-23-05, 10:47 PM

Oh, to see the glory, and the passion of the blessing of the Word of God. To see God's loving gift of this glorious possession, to have it, own it, hold it, love it, nurture it, grow in it, and produce because of it. All the glory of the Word of God is with us now. May we forever hold it high above all earthly possessions. May it's fullfillment be made known througout all lands!


Have you considered these biblical statements on death? - 05-12-07, 02:50 AM

Have you considered these scriptural statements which speak of death???

I have set before you life or death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life that both thou and thy seed may live. (Deuteronomy 30:19). God has no pleasure in the death of him that dies, turn yourselves, and live ye (Ezekiel 18:32). The dead know not any thing, they have no reward; the memory of them is forgotten (Ecclesiastes 9:5). There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave. (Ecclesiastes 9: 10). God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Matthew 22:32)

I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction (Hosea 13:14). There shall be no more death, sorrow, crying or pain (Revelation 21:4). I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). O death where is thy sting: O grave where is thy victory? (1 Corinthians 15:55)

There is a way that seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death (Proverbs 16:25). The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath (Proverbs 15:24). The law of the wise is a fountain of Life, to depart from the snares of death (Proverbs 13:14).

The last ENEMY that shall be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26). Awake thou that sleeps, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give thee light (Ephesians 5:14). The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ (Romans 6:23). Lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called (1 Timothy 6:12).


ETERNAL LIFE

I BELIEVE, God made us, and equipped us to live immortal lives. Death is a result of our sins. The wages of sin is death. Sin is the culmination of the errors of our ways. Christ says we sin err because we do not know the scriptures nor the power of god. To do this we must study (to show thyself a workman of god…rightly dividing the word of truth). But we do not study because we lack faith, we lack faith because we have not heard the words of God calling us from death to everlasting life; calling us from inevitable death to inevitable eternal life.

Let us hear the Word of God...

SCRIPTURAL TEACHINGS FOR EARS THAT HEAR

Apply thy heart unto instruction, and thy ears to the words of knowledge. PROVERBS 23: 12
The gift of God is eternal life. ROMANS 6:23
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. I CORINTHIANS 15: 26
There shall be no more death, sorrow, crying, or pain.
REVELATIONS 21:4
He that overcomes shall inherit all (these) things. REVELATIONS 21: 7
And the inhabitant shall not say I am sick. ISAIAH 33:24

I will build my church… and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. MATTHEW 16: 18
The Lord was made after the power of an endless life. HEBREWS 7: 16
I have set before you life or death. DEUTERONOMY 30: 19
God has no pleasure in the death of him that dies, turn yourselves, and live ye. EZEKIEL 18:32
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: HOSEA 13: 14
It is appointed to men once to die. HEBREWS 9:27
I have said ye are gods, but ye shall die like men. PSALMS 82: 6, 7
By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin. ROMANS 5: 12
The wages of sin is death. ROMANS 6:23
Go and sin no more. JOHN 8: 11
Awake to righteousness, and sin not. I CORINTHIANS 15: 34
He that hears my word shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. JOHN 5: 24
Those who live and believe in me shall never die. Believe thou this?
JOHN 11: 26
Death and life are in the power of the tongue. PROVERBS 18: 21
By your words you will be justified or condemned. MATTHEW 12: 37
If you even say thou fool, you are in danger of hell fire.
MATTHEW 5: 23
The dead know not any thing, they have no reward; the memory of them is forgotten. ECCLESIASTES 9:5
There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave. ECCLESIASTES 9: 10
God is a not the God of the dead, but of the living. MATTHEW 22: 32
I am the resurrection, and the life. JOHN 11: 25
He that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.
JOHN 11: 25
And the dead in Christ shall rise first. 1 THESSALONIANS 4:16
There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
ACTS 24: 15


All that are in the graves shall hear his voice and shall come forth unto the resurrection. JOHN 5: 28,29
Awake thou that sleeps, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give thee light. EPHESIANS 5: 14
O death where is thy sting? O grave where is thy victory? I CORINTHIANS 15:55
I give you power to tread on serpents…and over the power of the enemy. LUKE 10:19
Nothing by any means shall hurt you. LUKE 10:19
If they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them. MARK 16:18
Enemies will be confounded and ashamed. PSALMS 35:4
No weapons formed against you shall prosper ISAIAH 54: 17
Every tongue that rises against you in judgment shall be condemned ISAIAH 54: 17
This is life eternal, to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ. JOHN 17: 3
I am their inheritance, I am their possession. EZEKIEL 44: 28
Lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called.
I TIMOTHY 6: 12
The truth will make you free. JOHN 8: 32
As thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. MATTHEW 8: 13
The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath. PROVERBS 15: 24
There is a way that seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. PROVERBS 16:25
By faith women received their dead raised to life again.
HEBREWS 11: 35
There is no death in the pathway of the righteous. PROVERBS 12: 28
To them who… seek for glory, honor, and immortality; God will render eternal life. ROMANS 2: 6,7
According to your faith be it unto you. MATTHEW 9: 20
Nothing shall be impossible unto you. MATTHEW 17: 20
The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death. PROVERBS 13: 14
This mortal must put on immortality. I CORINTHIANS 15: 53


They could not enter in because of unbelief.
HEBREWS 3: 19
But the fearful, unbelieving, murderers,…and all liars, shall have part in the lake of fire…REVELATION 21: 8

He who hates his brother is a murderer and no murderer hath eternal life.
I JOHN 3: 15
Because of unbelief they were broken off. ROMANS 11: 20

Wisdom is a tree of life. PROVERBS 3: 18
A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: PROVERBS 15: 4

I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the Lord.
Psalms 118:17

Hear the word, let not the cares, riches, and pleasures of this life choke the word. LUKE 8: 14
Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind. ROMANS 12: 2
Be renewed in the spirit of your mind. EPHESIANS 4: 23
The new man is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: COLOSSIANS 3:10
Let this mind be in you that was also in Christ Jesus. PHILIPPIANS 2: 5
With God ALL things are possible. Mark 10: 27
If a man keeps my saying he shall never see death. John 8:51

Christ be formed in you. GALATIANS 4: 19

Conclusion:

Christ says the flesh can not inherit the kingdom (which is within us). We must be born again as life giving spirits. This re-birth comes through the renewing of our minds unto the re-identification of ourselves, not as being of flesh, but as being spirit, a spiritual being. But as mentioned before this requires focused study of and application of the word of God.

The scriptures say we are to learn and discern that which is good from that which is evil. Death is evil. Death is a result of sin, and it is an enemy to be destroyed. When we come to recognize this truth then we will exclude ourselves from that which deceives the whole world.

Though there is an appointed time for every man to die, we must be born again into life as life giving spirits, as gods. We die because of sinful lack of faith, not because our body cells aren’t able to infinitely regenerate, or because the body is unable to heal itself from disease or because we are not able to conquer any enemy.

[Teixeira]

Some arguments one can think about when debating deathists who uses religion as a tool to apologize for death.

1. is your current life really so extremely bad that it's necessary to die and get another life in another dimension to reach "peace"?

2. death is bad, not good, otherwise people wouldn't be crying at funerals.

3. why is it so important to replace person A with B?

4. If preventing death is to play god, why did then god give us the possibilities to do so? If god didn't want us to do something, why did he then create us with the ability to do so?

1) It doesn´t need to be that bad, the question is that in Heaven you had a quality of life "one billion" times better (in fact the difference is not finite).

2) That´s absolutely right! (that´s why all dead people must have the opportunity of coming back to life! Otherwise it would be a tremendous injustice, don´t you think?)

3) When you go to Heaven you are the same person, but your body have been modified toward much better performances, pleasure and immortality capability.

4) It is so because immortality and Heaven (the environment where you are immortal) can only be given by God because "the hardware and software" that are needed, only God has and nobody else. Of course Man is capable of increase the number of years, but even if he got something like 500 years, that was not , in any case, immortality!
"why did he then create us with the ability to do so?", well He didn´t!! You may think so, but that´s what you think. I can think I´ll fly, but I´ll never fly, that´s only what I think (this kinda looks like the Babel Tower story: a way to heaven, made by our own hands! Well it doesn´t works!).

Edited by Teixeira, 19 January 2010 - 12:22 AM.