56 replies to this topic

[NewLife]

Like seven years ago, being in my early teens, I decided to stop eating red meat. I’ve seldom eaten something containing such a thing, due to lack of attention or something. A year or two ago I also decided to exclude birds from my diet, so I was only eating fish for some time. Then I got chicken back into my diet. Anyway nobody cares about the progression of my on-the-way-to-vegetarian experiences.



The point is, over the last year, I totally changed. I started the fight to get a life from the very beginning, heading the top from the bottom. I’ve been sick and tired and have compromised many of my long-kept standards. I think I was deeply influenced by the talk of a man I known, who tried his best to convince me I needed to eat red meat. He put all kinds of pseudo-scientific facts, downmarket amateur research and ambition to influence me on emotional level. He was the reason I brought birds back into my diet.



So over the last year, I totally changed. A couple of weeks ago, I was in the restaurant I work in for the summer, looking at the menu and I chose beef for lunch. I wanted to see what it was like, to taste something I’ve being denying for more than half a decade. I imagined substances and molecules fueling my body with energy and joy, bringing life into that weakened piece of meat that holds the existence of mine. That goddamn acquaintance of mine, he marketed eating red meat to me!



Anyway, it wasn’t that flow of energy, that good taste or anything. It tasted nice but not that great. It comes with a slight spice of disgust and guilt, knowing where it comes from. I still think that eating red meat sucks, as well as any kind of meat, and from the ethical point of view it’s intolerable, obviously wrong and disgusting to grow, torture and kill animals in order to feed in a habitual, old-fashioned way which is a luxury with a very high price. So, when it comes to my decision, meat will be cancelled from people’s range of food options.



The question is, before it is so, what is the best thing to do, simply from the point of view of what is best for my organism. What diet is best for a young man, practising active mental processes and having a lot of work to do, who also wants to live forever? It is clear to me that red meat is more energy, but it does bring more responsibilities doesn’t it? Like going to the gym regularly to spend it before it sticks into my body as a mass of something unwanted. Going to the gym regularly is planned to start in two months. Anyway these are only speculations. I’m far from dietologist or scientific, by now I’m into social sciences.



What is best for my health? PETA supporters will, and they’re right, cry in my face that it’s better for my health not to eat meat. An average well-groomed man from the intelligent layer in the middle class will claim the opposite. Whom should I believe? I don’t have the knowledge to do the research on my own, and there are tons of information supporting both beliefs.

[niner]

You can be healthy either way, but it's a little harder if you are a vegetarian. There are some things that you will need to supplement. You are likely to hear both sides here, so how will you decide? It's a conundrum... Either way, you're gonna need to hit the gym.

[OneScrewLoose]

You should do fine as long as you're eating fish.

[rwac]

Yes, red meat is helpful for certain things.
Say, building muscle or for testosterone, etc.

It's not essential though.
You'll need eggs, whey etc instead, though.

As for the ethical question, Humans are omnivores.
We do need meat. It's probably better if it's grass-fed and stuff, if you can afford it.

[VespeneGas]

Yes, red meat is helpful for certain things.
Say, building muscle or for testosterone, etc.

It's not essential though.
You'll need eggs, whey etc instead, though.

As for the ethical question, Humans are omnivores.
We do need meat. It's probably better if it's grass-fed and stuff, if you can afford it.

'need meat' is a little strong, since we now have synthetic sources of B12. I agree that for optimal unsupplemented health, humans require animal foods.

Morality wise, I'd say it's ethical to eat animals as long as they weren't cruelly mistreated and fed shit (corn) their entire lives. But I don't want to let the ethics genie out of the bottle

@ the OP: If you want to live forever AND be a vegetarian, you'll probably want to supplement some form of carnitine (ALCAR maybe), carnosine/beta alanine, taurine, and possibly B12 if you don't eat many eggs or drink much milk. Can't hurt to supplement B12 anyway, cheap and virtually no toxicity. If you're female, I'd definitely be supplementing iron if I were you.

[cyborgdreamer]

@ the OP: If you want to live forever AND be a vegetarian, you'll probably want to supplement some form of carnitine (ALCAR maybe), carnosine/beta alanine, taurine, and possibly B12 if you don't eat many eggs or drink much milk. Can't hurt to supplement B12 anyway, cheap and virtually no toxicity. If you're female, I'd definitely be supplementing iron if I were you.

Can you get carnitine, carnosine, and taurine from fish and sea food?

[lunarsolarpower]

Personally I think it's safer and healthier to eat a majority plant-based diet. I eat virtually no meat in a given year (maybe 1-2 servings of salmon) and so far I think I'm doing fine. I've found that dietary preference is as much a trigger for heated debate as religion or politics for many. It's not the end all and be all but these statistics sound pretty good to me. Obviously they're not looking at the quality of fat consumed in this particular vignette but I would not be a bit worried to live the rest of my life without meat.

Compared with non-vegetarians, Western vegetarians have:

A lower average Body Mass Index (BMI) (by about 1 kg/m2).
A lower mean plasma total cholesterol concentration (by about 0.5 mmol/l).
A lower mortality from IHD (by about 25 percent).
They may also have a lower risk for some other diseases such as constipation, diverticular disease, gallstones and appendicitis.
The evidence available suggests that widespread adoption of a vegetarian diet could prevent approximately 40,000 deaths from IHD in Britain each year.

[NewLife]

Compared with non-vegetarians, Western vegetarians have:

A lower average Body Mass Index (BMI) (by about 1 kg/m2).
A lower mean plasma total cholesterol concentration (by about 0.5 mmol/l).
A lower mortality from IHD (by about 25 percent).
They may also have a lower risk for some other diseases such as constipation, diverticular disease, gallstones and appendicitis.
The evidence available suggests that widespread adoption of a vegetarian diet could prevent approximately 40,000 deaths from IHD in Britain each year.

Lunarsolarpower, who is the source of these statistics?

It seems to me now that my partly-vegetarian diet - plants + dairy + fish + eggs + birds was just fine.

I'd prefer if somebody gives me links to information sources of authority - all you say is interesting but, yeah, when I'm given both opinions at the same time it doesn't help to decide. I think these statistics are enough by themselves to convince me I shouldn't eat meat. Do they apply to my partly-vegetarian regimen though?

It seems that I need a medical degree just to decide on whether to eat meat or not.

[.fonclea.]

Your problem may be is not due to the meat you eat or not ? I didn't read anything about the food you have beside so tell us more ?

Plenty of people don't have meat for religious believes, their regimen is of course adapted and if you see a nutrisionist he will probably confirm what the others said.

[ajnast4r]

We do need meat

this is completely false. humans do NOT need animal flesh in any form, including fish. this is fact and not up for debate.

either diet can be healthy, its more the quality of the diet itself than the absence or presence of meat. in general a meat-free diet (ovo-lacto vegetarian; including eggs an dairy) is better imo, owning to higher vegetable intake and lower exposure to meat-created carcinogens... saying an omnivorous diet is better because of carnosine/taurine intake is speculation at best.

Edited by ajnast4r, 05 August 2009 - 09:39 PM.

[russianBEAR]

I think if you just go with chicken and a overall well rounded diet you should be ok.

I don't eat much meat, but loads of chicken - and still don't deny myself a nice burger here and there.

If you think eating meat is unethical and disgusting, try telling that to a leopard or a lioness right before they try to get the most defensless prey out of the herd. 

I think wild nature is exciting, and eating meat is an integral part of what makes this planet so beautiful, dynamic and harmonic.

Edited by russianBEAR, 05 August 2009 - 10:38 PM.

[ajnast4r]

...

try 'telling' anything to a leopard... animals are not capable of rational thought and compassion. again.. 'thinking he may be ok if just eating chicken' is simply your opinion and not really based in nutritional science.

"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the

try 'telling' anything to a leopard... animals are not capable of rational thought and compassion. again.. 'thinking he may be ok if just eating chicken' is simply your opinion and not really based in nutritional science.

"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. "

http://www.eatright....33_ENU_HTML.htm

Edited by ajnast4r, 05 August 2009 - 11:04 PM.

[cyborgdreamer]

If you think eating meat is unethical and disgusting, try telling that to a leopard or a lioness right before they try to get the most defensless prey out of the herd. 

I think wild nature is exciting, and eating meat is an integral part of what makes this planet so beautiful, dynamic and harmonic.

Personally, I think the world would be a better place if we could control prey populations and keep predators happy and healthy without having animals kill each other. Of course, there's no practical way of doing this but we can control what we eat. As long as you're not damaging your own health, why encourage factory farmers to kill animals?

[Arc]

Personally I eat alot of meat (5 times a day usually), but this is only because I do alot of resistance training and it is near impossible to get the required amount of protein from supplements alone (I already go through about 2kg of protein powder a month which is expensive enough).

It depends on what you do, if you maintain a lean-physique and don't do any resistance training then you likely wont care about getting any more protein than what is required.

But repeating what others said you don't have to eat meat in any form to maintain a healthy diet - but you will have to make sure you supplement as not everything found in meat can be found in plants.

[russianBEAR]

You didn't invent the leopard, nor any other predators or prey. Whoever did was thankfully steering clear of unnecessary emotions, resulting in excellent balance on this planet. Watching predators hunt is just awesome, you're totally missing out on some execellent viewing with your emotion-laden liberal compassion for all approach.

Now with that said, I think it's too easy to go to the store and get meat, with massive amounts of animals slaughtered, so it leads to these liberal "don't kill a fly have compassion" nazis to cry foul. However if I was a hunter who spent hours playing an elaborate hunting game with some animal and got my kill the hard way (not with a sniper rifle from miles away) then I bet that meat would really taste good. Thing with meat and nature, you gotta earn it IMO.

My opinion is not based on nutritional science at all, that's why I added " along with an overall well rounded diet afterwards" - meaning figure it out yourself for your metabolism and body type, but from myown experience substituting chicken for meat products works as a direct swap.

Edited by russianBEAR, 06 August 2009 - 08:54 AM.

[EmbraceUnity]

You didn't invent the leopard, nor any other predators or prey. Whoever did was thankfully steering clear of unnecessary emotions, resulting in excellent balance on this planet. Watching predators hunt is just awesome, you're totally missing out on some execellent viewing with your emotion-laden liberal compassion for all approach.

This first sentence is a completely ridiculous naturalistic fallacy. A world could certainly reach an equillibrium without predator and prey relationships, or suffering of any sort. Indeed this should be the ultimate goal we should always strive for.

Taking pleasure from watching violence is certainly an emotional activity, so this argument is bunk as well.

Now with that said, I think it's too easy to go to the store and get meat, with massive amounts of animals slaughtered, so it leads to these liberal "don't kill a fly have compassion" nazis to cry foul. However if I was a hunter who spent hours playing an elaborate hunting game with some animal and got my kill the hard way (not with a sniper rifle from miles away) then I bet that meat would really taste good. Thing with meat and nature, you gotta earn it IMO.

What does this even mean? You have to earn what, exactly? The right to a good meal? In vitro meat will be here before you know it, and what you are saying is a bunch of barbaric nonsense.

[VespeneGas]

this is why ethical arguments should never have been introduced.

this should be moved to the nutrition forum, or the philosophy forum.

[cyborgdreamer]

You didn't invent the leopard, nor any other predators or prey. Whoever did was thankfully steering clear of unnecessary emotions, resulting in excellent balance on this planet. Watching predators hunt is just awesome, you're totally missing out on some execellent viewing with your emotion-laden liberal compassion for all approach.

The minor pleasure humans recieve from watching a documentary doesn't come close to the suffering of a deer being being mauled by wolves. If animal's suffering is irrelevent and my compassion is unnecessary, why is your enjoyment of watching predators hunt more important?

[Cyberbrain]

Whom should I believe? I don’t have the knowledge to do the research on my own, and there are tons of information supporting both beliefs.

You will eat out of interest for your own health. Here is a book on creating an excellent longevity lifestyle. Don't be taken by politics. Eat what ever will optimize your health.

For instance red meat is generally bad, but skinless cooked chicken and fish can be very healthy. Avoid anything with transfats, eat alot of veggies (number one source of optimal nutrition), and avoid sugars.

[Cyberbrain]

Btw, I'm moving this forum to lifestyles.

[Cyberbrain]

this is completely false. humans do NOT need animal flesh in any form, including fish. this is fact and not up for debate.

Well of course we could survive without meat. But it's still healthy for us to eat it since that's what we have been doing for millions of years. Meat is not a great essential but it can still help one's health. Hey, most supercentenarians are meat eaters, especial one's who ate a lot of fish.

[ajnast4r]

the fact remains that it is not physiologically necessary to eat meat.

really the deciding factor in choosing to be vegetarian is one of ethics. while the evidence leans towards a vegetarian diet producing greater reductions in disease vs. omnivorous diet, i think if you compare a healthy veg diet vs a healthy omnivorous diet there wouldn't be a significant difference.

[ajnast4r]

Well of course we could survive without meat. But it's still healthy for us to eat it since that's what we have been doing for millions of years. Meat is not a great essential but it can still help one's health. Hey, most supercentenarians are meat eaters, especial one's who ate a lot of fish.

the human body requires amino acids not meat... it makes no difference what the source of those amino acids are as long as the correct proportions are met. it is not HEALTHY to eat meat, its healthy to intake the necessary amount & proportions of amino acids.

if you can show me any evidence that eating meat incurs health benefits above not eating meat (which is not due to some nutrient also found in the plant world)... i would gladly read it.

i would venture to say that supercentenarians are super centenarians because of genetics not because of diet... a good portion of them are quite unhealthy by modern nutritional standards.

Edited by ajnast4r, 07 August 2009 - 01:53 AM.

[Shepard]

We've been fighting, screwing each other over, and dying for millions of years, too. Not the healthiest for the species.

I think we know the real danger: vegetarian diets inevitably drive people to become Communists.

[ajnast4r]

We've been fighting, screwing each other over, and dying for millions of years, too. Not the healthiest for the species.

I think we know the real danger: vegetarian diets inevitably drive people to become Communists.

pay this man

[Matt]

I went vegetarian in 2007 for health, but now its not just that, its just I think its the right thing to do. Sure we're meant to eat animals, but most of us are not struggling to live in the wild. I don't understand the point in being a vegan though.

Edited by Matt, 07 August 2009 - 08:42 PM.

[EmbraceUnity]

I went vegetarian in 2007 for health, but now its not just that, its just I think its the right thing to do. Sure we're meant to eat animals, but most of us are not struggling to live in the wild. I don't understand the point in being a vegan though.

I have recently been converted to dairy, as a result of this essay:

http://www.utilitari...ing-per-kg.html

Furthermore, I strength train, the only complete protein with remotely comparable cost is soy protein, which I don't feel comfortable going overboard on. The evidence is too contradictory.

Edited by progressive, 07 August 2009 - 11:14 PM.

[niner]

I have recently been converted to dairy, as a result of this essay:

http://www.utilitari...ing-per-kg.html

Interesting, but wildly speculative. He could have just as easily decided that farmed fish suffer at a rate of 0.01 that of cows. As presented, these just seem to be his personal beliefs, without much basis in, say, physiology.

[TheFountain]

Yes, red meat is helpful for certain things.
Say, building muscle or for testosterone, etc.

It's not essential though.
You'll need eggs, whey etc instead, though.

As for the ethical question, Humans are omnivores.
We do need meat. It's probably better if it's grass-fed and stuff, if you can afford it.

No we don't need meat. The main cravings we have when we 'want' meat are the amino acid composition, nutrients and vitamins, all of which can be supplemented to end the meat cravings. Animal protein is a high source of methionine and can cause problems as we age.

[TheFountain]

We've been fighting, screwing each other over, and dying for millions of years, too. Not the healthiest for the species.

I think we know the real danger: vegetarian diets inevitably drive people to become Communists.

While primarily meat based diets make us invade other countries for oil and capriciously murder a million of its inhabitants.