43 replies to this topic

[Blue]

There are numerous of studies on resveratrol. Unfortunately almost all seem to be animal or cell studies with various limitations as noted in this summary:
http://lpi.oregonsta...ls/resveratrol/

So it would be interesting to see what human studies showing efficiency actually exist. Studies simply studying the metabolism of resveratrol, epidemiologic studies, or resveratrol + something else are not that interesting.

Here is what I can find:
Sirtris has two studies showing that "SRT501, a SIRT1 activator, is our proprietary formulation of resveratrol with improved bioavailability SRT501was found to be safe and well tolerated in two Phase IIa clinical studies in patients with Type 2 Diabetes. In the second Phase IIa trial, Type 2 Diabetic patients were given 1.25 or 2.5 grams of SRT501 orally twice daily for 28 days. The patient group receiving 2.5 grams twice a day had significantly lower blood glucose levels as determined through an oral glucose tolerance test on day 28 at the test’s two-hour time point, as compared to the placebo group. At 2.5 grams twice daily, the study also found that SRT501 had a statistically significant lowering of both fasting blood glucose and glucose levels after meals, known as the postprandial period, an important timeframe for patients with Type 2 Diabetes who need better control of blood sugar levels after eating."
http://www.sirtrisph...news-press.html
http://www.sirtrisph...m/pipeline.html
http://www.medicalne...cles/104564.php

1.25 g x 2 of this formulation did not affect glucose significantly. Still not clear if it affects Hba1c or the clinical course of the disease itself.

But surely there are more? Please list any others.

[kilgoretrout]

There are numerous of studies on resveratrol. Unfortunately almost all seem to be animal or cell studies with various limitations as noted in this summary:
http://lpi.oregonsta...ls/resveratrol/

...

But surely there are more? Please list any others.

See, this is what bugs me so much about all the hyping up of these supplements, including the effusive, gushing (though butt-savingly vague) promises of vastly improved health and longevity at the RevGenetics (and many many others') site.

There's just simply almost no actual evidence of efficacy at ANYTHING in vivo. Which makes these claims seem sleazy and money-grubbing to my ears, and they piss me off as especially hypocritical when coming from those who otherwise appear to have a very reasonable, rational, sensible attitude... I start assuming the latter is all just a big fake put-on act to assist getting rich quick, which in turn makes me cynical and sad about human nature. Oh well, it is what it is, I guess <sigh>.

[malbecman]

Don't get too cynical yet. You've got to keep in mind that in-vitro studies w/ cells are a lot cheaper and safer to run. Heck, we'll even let our gradual students, I mean grad
students, run them. They only take a couple of months, maybe 6 for the whole thing, cost me a couple of thousand dollars maybe, and I can get a publication out of them.
But move up to in-vivo and especially a human clinical trial and you are talking about a LOT more money plus regulations up the wazoo (which are a good thing but a
lot of work). If I wanted to do a clinical trial of resveratrol in humans, that would mean writing a grant application specifically for that trial which would take 3-4 months to prepare and get all the necessary approvals, 6-9 months to review and then another couple of months just to get funded and start the whole darn thing. You would need to really sell it, too, IMHO, to get funded. Much better chances getting in vitro stuff funded. Getting science done just takes a lot of time, unfortunately.

[kilgoretrout]

Don't get too cynical yet. You've got to keep in mind that in-vitro studies w/ cells are a lot cheaper and safer to run. [...] Getting science done just takes a lot of time, unfortunately.

But if the real science has not yet been done because it is so expensive... then why are you already a believer? You have some supernatural psychic gut-instincts or something?

Or do you work for someone that makes or sells it?

Edited by Michael, 26 August 2009 - 05:46 PM.
Trim quote

[kismet]

Don't get too cynical yet.

Should read the other way round: first be cyinical, then get convinced by evidence.

[Blue]

Don't get too cynical yet. You've got to keep in mind that in-vitro studies w/ cells are a lot cheaper and safer to run. [...] Getting science done just takes a lot of time, unfortunately.

True of course that human placebo-controlled studies are expensive. Still, there are lots of supplements with many human placebo-controlled studies.If the above is the only human study regarding efficiency done then resveratrol deserves less mention than vinegar which has a bunch a human studies showing glucose lowering effects.

Most human studies for supplements are regarding essential nutrients like vitamins and minerals. But even if we exclude the those there are still supplements such as carnitine, lipoic acid, and coq10 which has shown efficiency against a wide variety of different human age-related diseases in numerous placebo-controlled studies. A much more proven (and very importantly safer!) bet for someone wanting to spend money on general supplements against the diseases of aging.

Edited by Michael, 26 August 2009 - 05:47 PM.
Trim quotes

[maxwatt]

Don't get too cynical yet. You've got to keep in mind that in-vitro studies w/ cells are a lot cheaper and safer to run. [...] Getting science done just takes a lot of time, unfortunately.

True of course that human placebo-controlled studies are expensive. Still, there are lots of supplements with many human placebo-controlled studies.If the above is the only human study regarding efficiency done then resveratrol deserves less mention than vinegar [...]

If I didn't have arthritis, and had not seen the improvement I get from using over 500 mg of resveratrol, I would agree with you. I've also experienced the training effect noted by the cyclist who started a thread on the subject of mitochondrial biogeness here. Even if resveratrol is not life-extending, I find it improves my quality of life better than anything my pain management doctor has been able to give me. When the furor over resveratrol erupted in the media two and a half years ago, a number of us began an uncontrolled experiment, self dosing with resveratrol. The short-term effects have encouraged many of us to continue taking resveratrol, and not always from Revgenetics. The thing about that company, is they seemed to use the contributors to this forum as their product development team. It looks like we have be touting their product, but it's more that they have been running after us. I do not use Revgenetics, and do not advocate their product, though it fits the description of the kind of product(s) I would and do use. So do two or three other companies.

The list you mention (carnitine, lipoic acid, and coq10) have so little to support them in the way of human trials -- not to mention conflicting results -- that they can't be recommended as having science behind them either. ALCAR and RLA failed to extend life-span in mouse studies, nor did they improve rodent health. CoQ10 did show some positive effects in Parkinson's at 1200 mg doses, but further studies have cast doubt on the improvement as any more than temporary and minor. The use of general supplements does not seem to be particularly protective either, and there has been o controlled study demonstrating its efficacy one way or the other.

Edited by Michael, 26 August 2009 - 05:48 PM.
Trim quotes

[TheFountain]

It looks like we have be touting their product, but it's more that they have been running after us. I do not use Revgenetics, and do not advocate their product, though it fits the description of the kind of product(s) I would and do use. So do two or three other companies.

Is it just me or is RevGenetics becoming unreasonably expensive? Maybe I am just a poor boy from a middle class family trying to keep a 250$ monthly regimen up as well as 300$ a month dietary regimen, but I find paying 50$ a month (about the cost of X500 with shipping) for 30 pills (not even a full month supply) preposterous. That is 50$ too much for my poor blood, which is why I seek resveratrol alternatives. Do you mind mentioning those other companies you buy from?

Edited by TheFountain, 12 August 2009 - 07:20 PM.

[Blue]

The list you mention (carnitine, lipoic acid, and coq10) have so little to support them in the way of human trials -- not to mention conflicting results -- that they can't be recommended as having science behind them either. ALCAR and RLA failed to extend life-span in mouse studies, nor did they improve rodent health. CoQ10 did show some positive effects in Parkinson's at 1200 mg doses, but further studies have cast doubt on the improvement as any more than temporary and minor. The use of general supplements does not seem to be particularly protective either, and there has been o controlled study demonstrating its efficacy one way or the other.

I was not claiming life extension (which resveratrol does not do in any case in normal feed mice). But regarding age related diseases there numerous placebo-controlled human studies for these mitochondrial enhancers against many different age-related diseases. Not necessarily all of them big or or high quality studies. But far more than one (1) which seems to be the case for resveratrol.

An incomplete listing.

Carnitine
https://healthlibrar...;chunkiid=21450
http://lpi.oregonsta...nuts/carnitine/

CoQ10
https://healthlibrar...;chunkiid=21682
http://lpi.oregonsta...thernuts/coq10/

Lipoic acid
https://healthlibrar...;chunkiid=21480
http://lpi.oregonsta...r/othernuts/la/

Edited by Blue, 12 August 2009 - 08:41 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

Maxwatt has it right when he stated this:

The thing about that company, is they seemed to use the contributors to this forum as their product development team. It looks like we have be touting their product, but it's more that they have been running after us.

The fact is that our product development has focused on the information presented in this forum, to make a better products for the forum contributors. So when Kilgoretrout states all the funny stuff about RG, he is really being hard on alot of the ideas that came directly from this forum by folks smarter than us.

Here's a little history for the new guy:
===========================
1- Our resveratrol was compared to a competitors here by Hedge, the Electron Microscope images showed a sleight difference in particle size that folks contributed to our competitors claims even though no-one had real proof (and still do not). So, RG decided to micronize our res product to remove all doubt of absorption claims due to particle size, and then used Sirtris public information on resveratrol absorption for new product developments.

2- We tried beta-cyclodextrin as Hedge really liked that one, but are limited by how much we can use according to the FDA, and could not sell it publicly. (I actually have a little bag of it here in my desk)

3- We tried a nano-lipid resveratrol that was going to be made for us by a company that sweared up and down that it was the best, but the problem with that, is that it could not be independently verified (the nano size or the lipid). So we stopped that one from consideration. (That one is at home, I let it sit there and even this "nano lipid" stuff in pure ethanol is at the bottom of that jar) I still have my doubts on this one.

4- We then tried nano-resveratrol powder, as it could be independently verified. But it turned out to be much more expensive to make than micronized resveratrol. (Again, I do have 100 grams of it on my desk, and it takes up a jar that is 9-10 inches tall and 3-4 inches wide.)

===========================

So yes, we listen to folks here, and we develop products based forum members recommendations and on FDA limitations.

Is that a bad thing?

===========================

TheFountain,
I am surprised you didn't become an imminst member in July and get the extra RG discount, which would give you an additional discount while our August sale is on (see this post in the vendor section). The 99% trans-resveratrol product you mentioned would have been down to $32.89 after the imminst member discount. But never fear, I got a call today, and you will be getting the super low priced 50% resveratrol you prefer, very soon.

For other folks, who are wondering about resveratrol prices please remember the price watch here, that lists lots of pricing from all over the internet:
http://www.imminst.o...tch-t15059.html



Cheers
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 12 August 2009 - 10:22 PM.

[kilgoretrout]

So when Kilgoretrout states all the funny stuff about RG, he is really being hard

...

So yes, we listen to folks here, and we develop products based peoples recommendations here and on FDA limitations.

Is that so bad?

What funny stuff? OK, early on I was a little over excitable, but I recanted that and said I do appreciate and admire you and am thankful for what you make available, so let me reiterate that.

Yes, I tend to be VERY skeptical of what people who are selling things claim about the things they sell... Is that so bad? Isn't that the proper stance and DUTY of a totally rational consumer in a free-market? Isn't that a time-honored all-American tradition? I will never be anyone's adoring lap-dog, but you wouldn't want that would you? Surely someone with your business acumen understands that being asked tough questions, the gauntlet of fire as it were, makes something stronger and better. I am no anti-capitalist fanatic here to bash you. I consume thousands of dollars of supplements a year based on my own totally unscientific gut impressions of research and other material I read, so I am definitely on the bandwagon, as it were.

Your listening to people here, and product development choices, etc, are great, and I applaud you for them. I have even tried to contribute and hope to continue to do so (i.e., the thread on buccal absorption - suggesting that a strong true mint flavoring ingredient might increase absorption via a similar mechanism as menthol & eucalyptol... I hope to buy and use this in the near future!) .

But at the same time, I continue to feel that promoting and advertising these things with statements that SEEM scientific and SOUND as if there must be well-accepted medical research behind them, as is done on your and many other companies' websites and other collateral, is morally and ethically wrong, when there is virtually no human medical research to base them on.

Is that so bad?

I like a whole lot about one side of what you are doing. The other side, mmmmm, not so much. I hope, dear Andrew, that is not too much cognitive dissonance for you to handle.

Edited by kilgoretrout, 12 August 2009 - 10:51 PM.

[maxwatt]

The list you mention (carnitine, lipoic acid, and coq10) have so little to support them in the way of human trials -- not to mention conflicting results -- that they can't be recommended as having science behind them either. ALCAR and RLA failed to extend life-span in mouse studies, nor did they improve rodent health. CoQ10 did show some positive effects in Parkinson's at 1200 mg doses, but further studies have cast doubt on the improvement as any more than temporary and minor. The use of general supplements does not seem to be particularly protective either, and there has been o controlled study demonstrating its efficacy one way or the other.

I was not claiming life extension (which resveratrol does not do in any case in normal feed mice). But regarding age related diseases there numerous placebo-controlled human studies for these mitochondrial enhancers against many different age-related diseases. Not necessarily all of them big or or high quality studies. But far more than one (1) which seems to be the case for resveratrol.

An incomplete listing.

Carnitine
https://healthlibrar...;chunkiid=21450
http://lpi.oregonsta...nuts/carnitine/

CoQ10
https://healthlibrar...;chunkiid=21682
http://lpi.oregonsta...thernuts/coq10/

Lipoic acid
https://healthlibrar...;chunkiid=21480
http://lpi.oregonsta...r/othernuts/la/

You really need to read this thred: Why did resveratrol not extend the lifespan of mice? Sinclair's study revisited; with a different strain of mouse resveratrol may well have extended rodents' lifespan. None of the studies you cited make a stronger case than the one for resveratrol, which is admittedly weaker than the case for most FDA approved drugs. But we have reason to believe the mitochondrial biogenesis seen in mice works in humans, and the nfKappa-beta inhibition reported in numerous in vitro studies seems to explain resveratrol's effect via a vis osteo-arthritis.

Go ahead and use the placebo of your choice. I'm happy with mine.

[Anthony_Loera]

Andrew? Hmm... I think you meant Anthony (see my member name over on the left?).

K, you have your personal issues and feelings which I won't touch, as they are... personal to you. I on the other hand, know facts about many of our customers that you do not know, these facts makes me believe our company is helping folks in many ways.

I think you need to discuss what benefits, if any are attributed to resveratrol here on this board, regardless of the resveratrol company you ultimately will consider in the future.

Cheers

A

[kilgoretrout]

Fair enough. Sorry about the name flub. Cheers back at ya.

[TheFountain]

TheFountain,
I am surprised you didn't become an imminst member in July and get the extra RG discount, which would give you an additional discount while our August sale is on (see this post in the vendor section). The 99% trans-resveratrol product you mentioned would have been down to $32.89 after the imminst member discount. But never fear, I got a call today, and you will be getting the super low priced 50% resveratrol you prefer, very soon.

Anthony, you mistake my disposition my friend. I do not 'prefer' the 50% resveratrol. I recall commenting on how I thought spending 60$ for a 3 months supply of that was a decent gamble considering my already fairly expensive regimen. I would love to spend the same amount of money for a 3 month supply of 99% purity resveratrol, but I know costs will not go down for some time. In simple terms I am probably poorer compared to many members here, being a student and having a very limited budget.

Hypothetically if resveratrol were the only supplement we needed to address all our concerns I would spend 300$ a month on it alone, but seeing as how that is not the case I am forced to make compromises. Maybe when I am out of school and have a higher paying job I would be able to afford a higher end product on a month to month basis. And I did not mean my previous comment as an insult to your products, your products are excellent, just some of them are too expensive for my current situation. Well, most of them are, but only because I am alreadt spending a lot of money on supps every month.

Edited by TheFountain, 13 August 2009 - 02:50 AM.

[niner]

TheFountain, why not use uncapped, powdered resveratrol. At a buck a gram for 98+%, that's only 15 bucks a month for a half gram a day habit, and no emodin to contend with. That's what I use. I started with a group purchase of a Chinese import that was insanely expensive, and now get it from RG.

[maxwatt]

TheFountain, why not use uncapped, powdered resveratrol. At a buck a gram for 98+%, that's only 15 bucks a month for a half gram a day habit, and no emodin to contend with. That's what I use. I started with a group purchase of a Chinese import that was insanely expensive, and now get it from RG.

I thought that one was a synthetic that came from India.

[niner]

Kilgore, you are right that there are not a lot of rigorous human trials completed with resveratrol, and malbecman has explained why this is the case. However, the collected resveratrol users at this site have constituted a large, very poorly controlled "study", and we have learned a number of interesting things. A large enough number of anecdotes, properly curated, represents a dirty dataset. In science, we work with dirty data all the time. We still manage to squeeze useful information from it. Some of our mitochondrial biogenesis data was collected carefully, and I consider it meaningful. Pharmacokinetic and biomarker studies may not be interesting to everyone, but for some of us, that is very crucial data that tells us if a drug can work as we think it does. We know a lot about resveratrol, from a large variety of sources. We have good data that tells us it lowers blood sugar, causes mitochondrial biogenesis, and has a variety of anti-inflammatory activities. We have seen remarkable anecdotal data regarding its use in cancer. There are a number of human clinical trials underway, or attempting to get underway, at this time. Surprisingly, it is difficult to recruit patients for a lot of the cancer trials out there, and many of them never get off the ground for that reason. Resveratrol has a lot of media buzz, so maybe that won't be a problem with it. I feel like I know enough about the pros and cons of resveratrol to take it myself. Some will choose to wait for more clinical trial data, and I can understand that. That's a reasonable approach.

[TheFountain]

TheFountain, why not use uncapped, powdered resveratrol. At a buck a gram for 98+%, that's only 15 bucks a month for a half gram a day habit, and no emodin to contend with. That's what I use. I started with a group purchase of a Chinese import that was insanely expensive, and now get it from RG.

Which product are you referring to specifically on the site? Can you send me the link? Also, can you please tell me how long this order would last if I took it twice daily at the appropriate doses?

[niner]

TheFountain, why not use uncapped, powdered resveratrol. At a buck a gram for 98+%, that's only 15 bucks a month for a half gram a day habit, and no emodin to contend with. That's what I use. I started with a group purchase of a Chinese import that was insanely expensive, and now get it from RG.

Which product are you referring to specifically on the site? Can you send me the link? Also, can you please tell me how long this order would last if I took it twice daily at the appropriate doses?

It's called P98 I believe. At half a gram per day (i.e. 500mg), 100 grams of it would last 200 days. You could take more or less, of course. It's on the site somewhere. Just look for "powder". The cheap stuff is non micronized, but it's still a pretty small particle size.

[TheFountain]

TheFountain, why not use uncapped, powdered resveratrol. At a buck a gram for 98+%, that's only 15 bucks a month for a half gram a day habit, and no emodin to contend with. That's what I use. I started with a group purchase of a Chinese import that was insanely expensive, and now get it from RG.

Which product are you referring to specifically on the site? Can you send me the link? Also, can you please tell me how long this order would last if I took it twice daily at the appropriate doses?

It's called P98 I believe. At half a gram per day (i.e. 500mg), 100 grams of it would last 200 days. You could take more or less, of course. It's on the site somewhere. Just look for "powder". The cheap stuff is non micronized, but it's still a pretty small particle size.

Yes I found it, unfortunately this too is out of stock. Hopefully the next time I am ready to place an order it will be in stock again.

Edited by TheFountain, 13 August 2009 - 05:02 AM.

[Blue]

The list you mention (carnitine, lipoic acid, and coq10) have so little to support them in the way of human trials -- not to mention conflicting results -- that they can't be recommended as having science behind them either. ALCAR and RLA failed to extend life-span in mouse studies, nor did they improve rodent health. CoQ10 did show some positive effects in Parkinson's at 1200 mg doses, but further studies have cast doubt on the improvement as any more than temporary and minor. The use of general supplements does not seem to be particularly protective either, and there has been o controlled study demonstrating its efficacy one way or the other.

I was not claiming life extension (which resveratrol does not do in any case in normal feed mice). But regarding age related diseases there numerous placebo-controlled human studies for these mitochondrial enhancers against many different age-related diseases. Not necessarily all of them big or or high quality studies. But far more than one (1) which seems to be the case for resveratrol.

An incomplete listing.

Carnitine
https://healthlibrar...;chunkiid=21450
http://lpi.oregonsta...nuts/carnitine/

CoQ10
https://healthlibrar...;chunkiid=21682
http://lpi.oregonsta...thernuts/coq10/

Lipoic acid
https://healthlibrar...;chunkiid=21480
http://lpi.oregonsta...r/othernuts/la/

You really need to read this thred: Why did resveratrol not extend the lifespan of mice? Sinclair's study revisited; with a different strain of mouse resveratrol may well have extended rodents' lifespan. None of the studies you cited make a stronger case than the one for resveratrol, which is admittedly weaker than the case for most FDA approved drugs. But we have reason to believe the mitochondrial biogenesis seen in mice works in humans, and the nfKappa-beta inhibition reported in numerous in vitro studies seems to explain resveratrol's effect via a vis osteo-arthritis.

Go ahead and use the placebo of your choice. I'm happy with mine.

Speculations that a somewhat different experiment than a failed one may well have produced a better result is just speculations. I could just as as well speculate that carnitine + lipoic acid will extend lifespan if they had only been given together since add efficiency to each other in several studies (Since we are here in the realm of speculations, here is a cell study showing effects when given together not found when given alone: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18026715 )(As a sidenote, "lifespan extension" is a misleading term which should be "lifespan extension for the healthiest 10%, average lifespan may well increase regardless if this change or not).

"None of the studies you cited make a stronger case than the one for resveratrol, which is admittedly weaker than the case for most FDA approved drugs." Resveratrol is not even close to a FDA approval, simple postprandial glucose lowering without evidence of significantly affecting Hba1c or any evidence of prevention or treatment of diabetic complications is not an acceptable endpoint for type II diabetes. On the other hand, my links show many studies finding that carnitine and lipoic acid effectively treats complications of diabetes such as neuropathy in placebo-controlled, human studies. Just to mention one example of a disease from the many in the llinks.

Edited by Blue, 13 August 2009 - 06:04 AM.

[niner]

Speculations that a somewhat different experiment than a failed one may well have produced a better result is just speculations. I could just as as well speculate that carnitine + lipoic acid will extend lifespan if they had only been given together since add efficiency to each other in several studies. (As a sidenote, "lifespan extension" is a misleading term which should be "lifespan extension for the healthiest 10%, average lifespan may well increase regardless if this change or not).

Actually, I don't expect to be in the top ten percent. Isn't it funny how we all tend to think that we are above average? I am very interested in a drug that will extend the lifespan of the bottom 50 or 60 percent, because odds are good I will be there. This is the very essence of the "escape velocity" concept; live long enough to live forever. That starts by each person living as long as they personally can, and supplements will be a part of that plan for most of us. All this denigration of "curve squaring" is silly unless you don't care how many people die before you get on the train.

[kenj]

Maxwatt wrote:

>>> Even if resveratrol is not life-extending, I find it improves my quality of life better than anything my pain management doctor has been able to give me. <<<

Now here's a shameless anecdote to match: dunno if resveratrol is helping, but during summer I've been pretty committed to exercise, - almost every morning 40 mins runs, and several times/week I've been lifting a lil' weight (mostly my own body weight, and dumbbells (45lbs each), and all this on a LOWER caloric intake -- and IMO most interestingly I recover completely, - no soreness (I recall another member having similar good recovery), --
several times I've been lifting weights in the evening, and only having a few supplements + a small snack after to facilitate insulin/avoid completely wasting away: 6/h sleep and a solid 40 mins beach run the next morning, on a zero calorie 'energy drink'. :-) Sure, the caffeine helps alot (and possibly ALCAR, etc.), but I haven't noticed any drop in stamina or CNS/adrenal burnout, despite dropping body weight. For months now.
I do acknowledge mysterious tendon issues when I started high dose resv (early 2007) plus it made me tired, but I seem to have gotten over that. ISTM with resveratrol you get more 'bang for your caloric buck', (wut) if everything else in the body is working, which matter to me, FWIW.

[Blue]

Anecdotal stories has many problems like placebo-effects, that many conditions spontaneously permanently or temporarily improve by themselves, the effect of some other changes in supplement or nutrition or lifestyle or even better weather, underreporting of no effects, etc.

If someone wants numerous glowing, wonderful anecdotal stores regarding supplements one just has to read the customer product reviews on iherb for nearly any product. Some examples, the best-selling products for the 3 substances I mentioned:
http://www.iherb.com...sules/7779?at=1
http://www.iherb.com...tgels/4134?at=1 (329 reviews just for this product nearly all superhyperpositive, IMO worth less than even a single bad peer-reviewed human study)
http://www.iherb.com...gie-Caps/4?at=1

You can also find 89 nearly all glowing anecdotal reports regarding a homeopathic flu mediation:
http://www.iherb.com...Doses/4928?at=1
52 glowing personal stories regarding the wonderful effects of another homeopathic supplement against leg cramps:
http://www.iherb.com...blets/3847?at=1
And so on.

Edited by Blue, 13 August 2009 - 04:36 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

TheFountain, why not use uncapped, powdered resveratrol. At a buck a gram for 98+%, that's only 15 bucks a month for a half gram a day habit, and no emodin to contend with. That's what I use. I started with a group purchase of a Chinese import that was insanely expensive, and now get it from RG.

Which product are you referring to specifically on the site? Can you send me the link? Also, can you please tell me how long this order would last if I took it twice daily at the appropriate doses?

It's called P98 I believe. At half a gram per day (i.e. 500mg), 100 grams of it would last 200 days. You could take more or less, of course. It's on the site somewhere. Just look for "powder". The cheap stuff is non micronized, but it's still a pretty small particle size.

Yes I found it, unfortunately this too is out of stock. Hopefully the next time I am ready to place an order it will be in stock again.

Hi The Fountain, It should be available Friday or Sat... but it goes fast. Also, after August, we will only have it available to members on the forum. So consider donating to receive imminst membership: http://imminst.org/donate

Cheers
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 13 August 2009 - 04:45 PM.

[maxwatt]

Anecdotal stories has many problems like placebo-effects, that many conditions spontaneously permanently or temporarily improve by themselves, the effect of some other changes in supplement or nutrition or lifestyle or even better weather, underreporting of no effects, etc.

If someone wants numerous glowing, wonderful anecdotal stores regarding supplements one just has to read the customer product reviews on iherb for nearly any product. Some examples, the best-selling products for the 3 substances I mentioned:
http://www.iherb.com...sules/7779?at=1
http://www.iherb.com...tgels/4134?at=1 (329 reviews just for this product nearly all superhyperpositive, IMO worth less than even a single bad peer-reviewed human study)
http://www.iherb.com...gie-Caps/4?at=1

You can also find 89 nearly all glowing anecdotal reports regarding a homeopathic flu mediation:
http://www.iherb.com...Doses/4928?at=1
52 glowing personal stories regarding the wonderful effects of another homeopathic supplement against leg cramps:
http://www.iherb.com...blets/3847?at=1
And so on.

Except that we have some careful measurements that have been made supporting Kenj's observations. Cyclist in need of Mitochondrial Biogenesis; the numbers that I observed using a cylcing ergonometer (one with with lab accuracy) support this; I never was able to get similar results with ALA and ALCAR. The references you gave are secondary, the studies mostly in vitro, and sometimes contradicted by other studies, and on the whole not more convincing than those studies we have for resveratrol.

Observational studies -- and many of the reports we have here amount to that -- are valid, though dirtier than controlled double blind testing. Here resveratrol's effects are noted by a coach realizing something unusual is going on in his athletes, he grills them, and finds they have been taking resveratrol supplements. After asking for information in this forum, he then tries to measure the effect in his own regimen. To his surprise, he notes nothing until the third periodization training cycle, where despite continued increase in training intensity he notes performance improvement that would be obtained with a slow taper. Not something one would expect. Placebo effects are generally noted at the onset of a study, and tend to disappear with time.

[Blue]

Except that we have some careful measurements that have been made supporting Kenj's observations. Cyclist in need of Mitochondrial Biogenesis; the numbers that I observed using a cylcing ergonometer (one with with lab accuracy) support this; I never was able to get similar results with ALA and ALCAR.

More anecdotal evidence. Regardless, if resveratrol does in fact improve some sorts of sport performance that does not mean that it is good for health or longevity, compare anabolic steroids. It should also be noted that both carnitine and CoQ10 has peer-reviewed human studies suggesting enhanced sports performance, every one of them worth more than the anecodatal claims from a coach on a web forum. Sure, regarding sports performance there are other studies suggesting no effects, so the effect may not exist or be related to a particular sport and its requirements. But this just shows the importance of large, multiple, carefully controlled, double-blind, placebo-controlled, human studies and that very little weight should be given to the anecdotal claims on a web forum.

The references you gave are secondary, the studies mostly in vitro, and sometimes contradicted by other studies, and on the whole not more convincing than those studies we have for resveratrol.

That is simply outright false. What are the "mostly in virto" studies in this link for example:
https://healthlibrar...kiid=21450#ref1

Observational studies -- and many of the reports we have here amount to that -- are valid, though dirtier than controlled double blind testing. Here resveratrol's effects are noted by a coach realizing something unusual is going on in his athletes, he grills them, and finds they have been taking resveratrol supplements. After asking for information in this forum, he then tries to measure the effect in his own regimen. To his surprise, he notes nothing until the third periodization training cycle, where despite continued increase in training intensity he notes performance improvement that would be obtained with a slow taper. Not something one would expect. Placebo effects are generally noted at the onset of a study, and tend to disappear with time.

So you consider the ancedotal reports regarding the homeopathic supplements valid? Regarding the cyclists, see first response.

Edited by Blue, 13 August 2009 - 05:43 PM.

[nameless]

Compared to all the hype resveratrol has gotten, there are surprisingly little in the way of real human studies so far. This will eventually change, but deciding to take it based on anecdotal evidence probably isn't the smartest thing to do.

And yeah, those glowing iHerb reviews for various products scream 'placebo'. I recall one (for ubiquinol, I think), where the reviewer stated he was 'shaking with energy', after taking a single capsule.

I personally think it's sort of silly to megadose a product until human studies show some benefits (unless you are dying or something, then you have little to lose). At this point in time, it's possible that plain old grape seed extract has greater health benefits than resveratrol will. Got to wait for the real studies first...

[niner]

So you consider the ancedotal reports regarding the homeopathic supplements valid?

Of course not. iherb comments are almost exclusively fluff. They are less than worthless. The contributors to this forum are a very different population, however. Many of us are experienced scientists who understand the concepts of placebo effect, standards of evidence and the like. I can appreciate that you don't want to put much weight on anything except a robustly powered controlled clinical trial. I am not willing to put myself a decade behind the curve waiting for such studies when I already have a variety of evidences of efficacy. I have the training to evaluate the available evidence; if I did not, I might be more more tempted to wait for large controlled studies that may be decades away. Please don't equate me with pinheads who take infinitely diluted homeopathic "remedies".