24 replies to this topic

[captainbeefheart]

I really dislike running, I feel really crap after going for a jog for a while afterwards.

I think I do enough excerise, 30 minutes a day on cross trainer mostly and sometimes the bike at the gym then 5-10 minutes a day with the weights. But I avoid the treadmill as my experience of running has always been bad when I have tried before. Is it easier in the gym? I'm guessing the concrete pavement is going to give you a lot more impact then a treadmill!

At any rate, is it that important or can I achieve the same benefits of running from simply going for a brisk walk each day or from one of the other machines at the gym?

Edited by captainbeefheart, 25 September 2009 - 12:36 PM.

[Shepard]

Unless you're being chased, there is really no special need for running. And never a need for jogging (which I'm assuming you mean above).

That said, most people dislike jogging because they aren't adapted to it (me), or they just have horrible technique (pretty much everyone else I see that isn't a track athlete).

The one good thing about jogging is the impact it places through the body, which will help with bone density. So, it is slightly superior to some forms of aerobic activity, but not important if you're going to be doing any real resistance work.

[tunt01]

I spent some time trying to look at the literature on HIIT (sprinting) vs. jogging (endurance), and from what I recall the key was hitting about 60% of your VO2 max on sustained basis. this was best for improving mitochondrial density of your type IIa muscle fiber. if that means speedwalking for you, then it's probably fine. obviously the more you can improve and test your body's abilities over time, the better... but full-out 'running' doesn't seem necessary.

if you want a workout that is varied, can be done at any pace, and probably has excellent lifespan enhancing characteristics, look up crossfit.

http://www.crossfit.com/

Edited by prophets, 26 September 2009 - 01:58 AM.

[Shepard]

Ah, crossfit. Speaking of horrible technique...

[JLL]

What is the correct technique for jogging/running?

Also, what would this "hitting about 60% of your VO2 max on sustained basis" mean in practice?

I dislike the actual jogging part, but afterwards I feel pretty good.

[Shepard]

What is the correct technique for jogging/running?

You can look up stuff by Charlie Francis, Parisi, and the Pose technique if you really want to get into proper sprinting and jogging technique. But, most people would do much better if they focused on just a few things:

Head/Chest Up
Mid-Foot strike
Controlled Fall propelled forward by a hamstring pull
Minimum vertical displacement (imagine a ceiling right above your head)

Edited by Shepard, 26 September 2009 - 05:42 PM.

[kismet]

The one good thing about jogging is the impact it places through the body, which will help with bone density. So, it is slightly superior to some forms of aerobic activity, but not important if you're going to be doing any real resistance work.

OTOH extensive jogging is known for it's connection to overuse injuries (technique certainly plays a role).

Edited by kismet, 29 September 2009 - 03:22 PM.

[tunt01]

What is the correct technique for jogging/running?

Also, what would this "hitting about 60% of your VO2 max on sustained basis" mean in practice?

I dislike the actual jogging part, but afterwards I feel pretty good.

shep gave good explanation on technique. when I jog, I think of it as cycling through all of my leg muscles (thigh, cavs, gluts) in a controlled, careful form, rather than pounding the pavement w/ your bones. I run hard for form, strain the muscles hard, and am light on the joints/bones.

re: vo2 max. sry if this is a lazy response w/o the research links, but from what I recall when you start to hit 80%+ of your VO2 max (ie. maximum oxygen exchange your lungs/chest cavity can functionally perform) then your body switches to burning only glucose. it's why some people seem to constantly promote HIIT/sprinting as the best method of improving glucose sensitivity. yea it's a nice fast way to burn glucose, but the best way to build endurance and improve your body's mitogenesis (in the type IIa muscle fibers) is through endurance that stays below that high glucose threshold.

so my takeaway was that one wants to be breathing heavily, stressed, sweating, and in a slow/steady pace but below the point where u are working your lungs hardest.

that is not to say a 30s sprint followed by 30s jog (intervals) on some days and a straight jog (30 mins) on others isn't a good idea. i think there was a paper which showed this was the best way to improve your VO2 max over time, becuz theoretically you gained the mitogenesis (endurance capacity) while pressing/pushing/testing your body's upper limits of lung capacity. i was merely looking at 1 straight exercise alone (HIIT/sprints) vs. 1 exercise (endurance jog) in isolation.

I prolly didn't dig into the issue enough to have a competent viewpoint, but physical activity in general seems to need to address 1. flexibility 2. strength and 3. endurance... and the singular workout that seemed to best do that to me was the crossfit approach (which happens to be used in military, special ops forces training, etc.).

Edited by prophets, 29 September 2009 - 04:51 PM.

[tunt01]

one thing i will say is that i went a long time w/o running and since coming back to it, the one part of my body that feels materially stronger is my back/spine. when you are hunched over a PC all day, i find that no exercise/workout is superior for back strength than a light jog w/ good form.

Edited by prophets, 29 September 2009 - 05:11 PM.

[Shepard]

OTOH extensive jogging is known for it's connection to overuse injuries (technique certainly plays a role).

Certainly, probably for various reasons. Jogging/running is a self-selective sport, just like any other. It just happens to leave a lot more lying the ditches because of its popularity. Because of it's relative ease, it does lend itself to excessive repetition (even in those built for it), whereas something like swimming or rowing might not because they are usually more difficult to do for time.

I'm just waiting to see the hips and lower backs of the elliptical heroes after a couple decades. Might have solid knees, though.

[tunt01]

I'm just waiting to see the hips and lower backs of the elliptical heroes after a couple decades. Might have solid knees, though.

me too on this. imo, if you are heavy, than elliptical is nice to help burn off the fat until you are slim enough to jog. jogging w/ a lot of excess weight on your body does seem like murder on the joints. but LT, an elliptical doesn't seem like a good idea to me, at a healthy weight.

Edited by prophets, 29 September 2009 - 06:59 PM.

[rephore]

How is important is running? It is the key to life. http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Seriously though, walking for 30 minutes a day increases brain cells. http://www.youtube.c...re=channel_page

I myself hate running, but I do it anyway because I find it more fun than the elliptical, or exercise bike. I kind of like the stair stepper because I can watch myself build a puddle of sweat underneath the stair stepper when I exercise.

I can't wait until I get myself a mountain bike though. Then it wouldn't be like exercising anymore.

[tunt01]

i just happen to come across this abstract while looking for another related topic:

http://sciencelinks....506A0486007.php

Does High Intensity Intermittent Exercise Increase Insulin Sensitivity in Epitrochlearis Muscles of Fasted Rats?

It is well known that moderate intensity (lactate threshold level) exercise increases insulin sensitivity of glucose uptake in skeletal muscles. However, the effects of high-intensity short duration exercise (e.g. sprint interval exercise), which intensity is far above lactate threshold, on muscle insulin sensitivity is not clear. In the present study, fasted rats underwent high-intensity intermittent swimming (HIS; ten 20-s swimming with a weight equal to 18% of body mass), which intensity is estimated at 140% VO2max, or low-intensity prolonged swimming (LIS; 180min swimming without weight), which intensity is estimated at 40% VO2max. HIS induced 15 fold increase in AMP dependent protein kinase (AMPK) phosphorylation in epitrochlearis (EPI) muscles of fasted rats immediately after exercise. Previous study showed that AMPK activation increases muscle insulin sensitivity (Fisher et al. 2002), so that we hypothesized that HIS increases muscle insulin sensitivity. However, submaximal insulin (7.5.MU.U/ml) stimulated increase in glucose uptake above basal uptake (insulin sensitivity) was not increased 4hrs after HIS in EPI muscles. On the other hand, although LIS did not increase AMPK phosphorylation in EPI muscles immediately after exercise, insulin sensitivity was increased 4hrs after LIS. These results suggest the possibility that 1) low intensity prolonged exercise is more effective for increasing muscle insulin sensitivity than high intensity short duration exercise in fasted rats, 2) some factor (s) other than activation of AMPK is necessary for exercise induced increase in muscle insulin sensitivity. (author abst.)


Low Intensity Swimming (LIS) wins out over High Intensity Swimming (HIS) for glucose sensitivity. Not usre by how much w/o looking at the study more closely, but this conclusion was consistent w/ the data I had seen previously.

[Shepard]

When you're comparing 200s of work with 3 hours, the low-intensity will always win out from an insulin sensitivity standpoint. It's a glycogen thing. They should have compared longer intervals and a reasonable low-intensity time.

[rwac]

Anybody here run with vibrams ?
I got a pair recently, and it seems like the running technique is somewhat different if you aren't wearing cushioned shoes.

Edited by rwac, 30 September 2009 - 05:05 AM.

[Sillewater]

Anybody here run with vibrams ?
I got a pair recently, and it seems like the running technique is somewhat different if you aren't wearing cushioned shoes.

I've definitely noticed that. Probably has to do with the Vibrams having to heel support so we land on the front or mid-foot. My strides feel shorter, like I naturally fall into the Pose Method of running.

[tunt01]

When you're comparing 200s of work with 3 hours, the low-intensity will always win out from an insulin sensitivity standpoint. It's a glycogen thing. They should have compared longer intervals and a reasonable low-intensity time.

i misread that, i thought it was 20s vs. 180s. lol. it is interesting to note the lack of ampk induced by the LIS. AMPK seemed to be such a holy grail pathway, better than Sirt/Resv expression.

[Shepard]

I got a pair recently, and it seems like the running technique is somewhat different if you aren't wearing cushioned shoes.

This video made the rounds recently:

I've got some Vibrams. I like them, but I don't do any distance running.

[maxwatt]

There is some evidence that many of today's running shoes do more harm than good.

Joseph Froncioni, an MD who runs, advocates minimal shoes and barefoot running. In his article Athletic Footwear and Running Injuries he discusses the mechanics of running and why motion control, cushioning, and stability technology can cause running injuries. Froncioni cites research that backs him up.
Basically a sock with a slightly thickened sole, originally developed as a deck shoe to provide traction on wet boat decks, is the hottest running shoe out. Cushioned soles encourages sloppy technique, and barefoot or near-barefoot running forces one to develop good technique that minimizes injuries.

[MedStud]

captainbeefheart, how do you feel bad? depressed? pain? nausea?

I excercise periodically and when i do I run a little hill which takes me about 1 min 30 secs to run up at maximum speed. I use about 3 minutes running down.
When I start a new periode of excercising I run up 3-4 times.

So a full excercise will take about 20 minutes.
First run: Warm up
Second: Testing how fast I can run.
Third: Run as fast as I can.
Fourth: Run as fast as I can or relax.

Increase lapses as I get better trained.

It is painful but five to 20 minutes after training I get extra energy lasting the rest of the day.

Except for the benefits training is meaningless. I have no pleasure in training. Going the maximum intensity route means that results comes fast, with me being able to see results only a week after I started. Except for the minimal chance of having a stroke I cant see any risks with this type of training. Counterthoughts welcome :-)

[captainbeefheart]

muscles hurt quite a bit after, pain in back. During, breathing but that's got to do with asthma if I start at it to fast which I usually do, don't get the balance right I think. So I usually just stick to 30 minutes on the cross trainer, ten minutes weights a day, and some walking mixed into that on some days, depending what the weather is like!

[kurdishfella]

I think a 30 minute speed walking daily is enough. Running imo is not healthy and overdoing it and deplets nutrients. A lot of people think excersing long period of times makes one healthy but that is false. Or working out is even worse. Muscles does not always mean healthy, it comes with being healthy but since a lot of people use steroids they arent really healthy.

Edited by kurdishfella, 07 February 2021 - 11:36 PM.

[poonja]

I am an older man with a bad back and CAD.  I hate jogging/running as I believe it places undue stress on your body.  I have found that HIIT is best for me.  Particularly on the recumbant bike at the gym.  I can measure my heart rate and I do 4-6 intervals of 30 seconds strong effort and then I rest for 1.5 minutes and then repeat.  Goal is to get heart rate up and then back down again in a short time span with the goal, after the final interval getting heart rate down by at least 40 beats in two minutes.  The studies I have read seem to indicate that this is a better exercise for your heart than jogging for a prolonged period of time.

[johnross47]

It's highly unlikely that any of the new HIT type exercise patterns can be said to  be better for anything in the long term. They haven't been around long enough. As far as I know nobody has trialled two groups on running/jogging versus hit for the 45 years or so that I have been running.

I don't run to lose weight; at 3500 kcals to the pound, you have to run 35 miles at 10 mph without eating any more than your would normally need to maintain your weight, just to lose one pound. Diet is for weight loss; exercise is for fitness and health.

When some hit practitioner can come back to me in 40 years time and show me that they can do a 55 minute run up the side of a mountain and down again, pushing their HR to 160-70 at age 74 and then watch it drop to 60 again within 10 minutes of sitting down, and still dropping, then I'll accept that it's more than a passing fad.

[Olivia Fair]

Don’t run of a treadmill. Run outside.That part is free. I don’t know where you live, but take the time to go through nature if you can.

Balance your calories also and track it on MFP of any weight lost planner , I wouldn’t run for more than 30min especially everyday. That should mean you are only burning 200-400 calories depending on your weight, speed, and terrain. It’s pretty easy to add that back into your diet throughout the day.

Edited by Olivia Fair, 16 July 2021 - 12:59 PM.