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I DON'T WANT YOUR NAZI HEALTH CARE!


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#1 TheFountain

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 01:28 PM


I don't want your nasty smelly socialist nazi healthcare system! I want my freedom!

Freedom I tell you is paying property tax, income tax, sales tax, bridge toll tax, food tax, getting nothing back in return, having to work 60 hours a week just to survive and eat, having to have exceedingly large hospital bills because of lacking insurance. Not being able to sleep because of jobless noisy malcontent neighbors. Freedom's a great thing isn't it? How dare you suggest free healthcare? Free college education? Free job programs? That's fuckin slavery god damned it! Keep that fuckin shit away from me!

HAIL FREEDOM! HAIL FREEDOM! HAIL FREEDOM!

#2 eternaltraveler

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 01:44 PM

If you get all those things for free then you're right. You are absolutely more free. But only because you yourself have become the slave driver.

People are very good at coming up with rationalizations for subjugating their fellows

Edited by eternaltraveler, 20 October 2009 - 01:54 PM.


#3 TheFountain

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 02:07 PM

If you get all those things for free then you're right. You are absolutely more free. But only because you yourself have become the slave driver.

People are very good at coming up with rationalizations for subjugating their fellows


Yea I already feel subjugated by taking supplements, eating healthy and exercising. I don't need any damned more undermining of my freedoms! I will pay the lowest (and freest) price for AMALGAM dental fillings, I will not be forced into a deal to have a health care provider that would cover the cost of composites when I can have insurance that would pay 50% the cost and still let me make a co-payment of 400$ !!!!!!!!!!!!

FREEDOM FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#4 eternaltraveler

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 02:35 PM

Are you ok?

#5 Vgamer1

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 02:52 PM

Posted Image

#6 Shannon Vyff

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 03:14 PM

For the record ImmInst is not selling any nazi health care, or any sort of health care ;-)

#7 maxwatt

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 03:57 PM

As far as I know, Nazi party was not known for any sort of socialist health care, nor for socialism either for that matter. It was basically catering to the large German manufacturers / compaies like Krups et al. Something like our gvernment is largely driven by large corporations through lobbyists.

I find it strange that a first rate Canadian University education, even without the government subsidy Canadians get, costs about half what a comparable education costs at a private US school, and about the same as a New York resident would pay for the New York State College system.

I fnd it strange that the French have arguably the best health care system in the world measured by access and outcome, it is free to all (though paid by axes) yet they spend half per capita what the US does. If paying for heath insurance isn't a tax, what is it?

#8 RighteousReason

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 04:01 PM

free people are not economically equal and people that are economically equal are not free

#9 RighteousReason

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 04:01 PM

the OP is a nut case

How dare you suggest free healthcare? Free college education? Free job programs?

As though these things rained down magically from the heavens or grew on trees, or perhaps spouted directly from the nether regions of the Anointed One.

"Free" in this context actually means "Stolen"

That's fuckin slavery god damned it! Keep that fuckin shit away from me!


When you work 3, 4, 6 months of every year to have the fruits of your labor stolen from you at the point of a gun, what do you call that?

Edited by RighteousReason, 20 October 2009 - 04:18 PM.


#10 TheFountain

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 04:11 PM

Are you ok?


I am fine, so long as that concentration camp-style health care bill Obama has proposed does not pass! I want to keep my freedom where I can smell it up close!!!

Edited by TheFountain, 20 October 2009 - 04:12 PM.


#11 TheFountain

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 04:26 PM

For the record ImmInst is not selling any nazi health care, or any sort of health care ;-)


Sounds like a free market system to me!

#12 alexd

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 04:48 PM

Fountain

You are nuts. My grandparents all died in concentration camps and let me tell you the one thing it was not about was health care. You think that peole having a choice of a public option is bad? It's bad for insurance companies. Insurance companies overhead runs an average of 30% while medicare's overhead is 3%. Why are insurance companies entitled to that much vig for pushing paper? The reason is that they pay off our politicians through financial support. The last thing they want is competing with a system that has greater efficency. There goes that mega salery!

#13 Vgamer1

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 05:20 PM

I'm pretty sure TheFountain is being sarcastic guys

#14 Mind

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 05:25 PM

I'll keep my freedom, thank you.

#15 forever freedom

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 05:51 PM

What a mess this topic.

TheFountain, you may want to cut on the sarcasm next time if you don't want to create a sea of misunderstandings.

I think/hope i understood what you wanted to say. If i didn't get it, then don't consider this post.



I don't want your nasty smelly socialist nazi healthcare system! I want my freedom!

Freedom I tell you is paying property tax, income tax, sales tax, bridge toll tax, food tax, getting nothing back in return, having to work 60 hours a week just to survive and eat, having to have exceedingly large hospital bills because of lacking insurance. Not being able to sleep because of jobless noisy malcontent neighbors. Freedom's a great thing isn't it? How dare you suggest free healthcare? Free college education? Free job programs? That's fuckin slavery god damned it! Keep that fuckin shit away from me!

HAIL FREEDOM! HAIL FREEDOM! HAIL FREEDOM!


You're complaining you pay taxes for everything yet don't get anything in return, so you ask for more services from the government like free healthcare, college education, free job programs, etc.

But if the government provides more and more services, it is given a reason to increase its size and plus make people pay more taxes -yes, there WOULD be more taxes, or do you think the money would just magically appear, like socialists like to think?

The government is a big spending machine.. it's too inefficient. Instead of havinf the government raise taxes to provice more inefficient services, what about making it LOWER current taxes so we pay for the services ourselves? We'd definitely get more bang for our bucks.


Of course, poor people are against it (as they create very little wealth and get more from the government than they give to it) and richer people are against it because they create more wealth and give more to the government than they receive back. But what's fair? I think fair is to let each person keep all that he produces. Stealing from some (the richer), for whatever reason, is unfair. It's the same as pointing a gun at your rich neighbour obligating him to give you 10% of all that he owns because you need it more than he does. It's nonsense.

So, i say, if you live in even a relatively developed country where there are endless opportunities, stop whining and go get more education, work very hard, and you'll then soon create enough wealth to not have to worry about the provision of your basic needs.

Edited by forever freedom, 20 October 2009 - 05:52 PM.


#16 Cyberbrain

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 06:50 PM

Our government spends more than any other government. We could easily cut on that spending and provide more services to the citizens rather then private interests. It's unbelievable the amount of money we spend on the military, banks, subsidizing and financing corporations (not just the bailouts), subsidizing other countries, and there has got to be dozens if not hundreds of government run programs that are useless, not to mention the way that some states just waste their budget.

There is a lot that can be done to clean up this country, unfortunately I don't think even Obama's administration will be able or even willing to radically change the system. We're more or less on our own.

#17 kismet

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 07:14 PM

As though these things rained down magically from the heavens or grew on trees, or perhaps spouted directly from the nether regions of the Anointed One.

"Free" in this context actually means "Stolen"

No. You could argue that it is an unfair law but it cannot be stolen per definition, the same way copyright violation never will be stealing (I think back then some people, maybe including, you already confused the word). The distinction is very important.

When you work 3, 4, 6 months of every year to have the fruits of your labor stolen from you at the point of a gun, what do you call that?

Don't know about you but it's working well in Europe, specifically Sweden or Austria or other countries.

forever freedom, it's not stealing FFS! Most importantly the argument in favour of health care is rather simple: for profit health care cannot work (or so it goes). Providing good health care and making a profit are contrary aims. Sure, normally in a free market you could choose between competing companies, but many people happen to need health care right now; they cannot wait and they cannot choose once they're dead, disabled or broke because their first insurance failed them. And that is not even talking about the really poor, who are even worse off w/o any insurance. Universal health care is a good choice if you want to prevent needless deaths. I thought that's our business. :)

Edited by kismet, 20 October 2009 - 07:15 PM.


#18 rwac

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 07:29 PM

And that is not even talking about the really poor, who are even worse off w/o any insurance.

Universal health care is a good choice if you want to prevent needless deaths. I thought that's our business. :)


You're confusing lack of insurance with lack of healthcare.
There are uninsured people in the US, but everyone has some sort of access to healthcare.

The only problem with "preventing needless deaths" via Universal Health Care, is that
the government will get to decide which deaths are needless, based on the available resources.
That is something we really don't want.

Edited by rwac, 20 October 2009 - 07:32 PM.


#19 Cyberbrain

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 07:56 PM

Why is it even required to pay with insurance (public or private). Greece has a nice model. When you go for a procedure you can pay with either public or private insurance or you can pay it yourself without insurance.

#20 RighteousReason

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 08:08 PM

Providing good health care and making a profit are contrary aims.

Complete insanity. I don't even know where to begin with something like that. Go read Atlas Shrugged.

If something doesn't work for profit, what in the world makes you think it will work non-profit? Because the government can always seize more using its guns? What happens when they have seized everything?

ugh, mindlessness

And- in addition, have you noticed how spectacularly government tends to fail at everything?

If you think government can save money on healthcare…even though the exact same people that run government have brought you an almost $2 Trillion dollar deficit…and almost $100 Trillion in debt…almost double world GDP (all the money made in the world each year)…and despite the fact that government loses money in every department and every agency, at every level, every year since inception…YOU MIGHT BE A SOCIALIST.

… and you're definitely an IDIOT.


Yeah. Complete insanity that you would say that.

Edited by RighteousReason, 20 October 2009 - 08:51 PM.


#21 RighteousReason

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 08:09 PM

When you work 3, 4, 6 months of every year to have the fruits of your labor stolen from you at the point of a gun, what do you call that?

Don't know about you but it's working well in Europe, specifically Sweden or Austria or other countries.

I'm sure slavery is working great for some...

#22 pamojja

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 08:10 PM

The only problem with "preventing needless deaths" via Universal Health Care, is that
the government will get to decide which deaths are needless, based on the available resources.
That is something we really don't want.


Don't you sort of have that right now? Depending on resources you will be treaded and either get fine or go broke and can't afford any further treatments? At least I saw tv reports with interviews of former middle-class persons, simply not being able to afford cancer treatment anymore and therefore receiving only inappropriate.

Just remembered an interview with Michael More about the biggest difference between US and European health care. He asked the interviewer if she knew anyone in Austria having lost everything: savings, job, house, everything - due to sickness?

No, in Austria we don't knows of anyone like that. If you're broke at one time in your life you'll get necessary treatments done and are able to contribute to this system if you're better again. You aren't left treated inappropriate.

Debt amounting for US's future generations, seemingly leaving no other way out than a complete devaluation of the US $ and robing rich and poor alike of any savings, will not come due to public health care. I'm pretty sure.

I wished it to be otherwise - but if I lived in the states I would be concerned about public health care the least at this point in time.

#23 pamojja

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 08:16 PM

When you work 3, 4, 6 months of every year to have the fruits of your labor stolen from you at the point of a gun, what do you call that?

Don't know about you but it's working well in Europe, specifically Sweden or Austria or other countries.

I'm sure slavery is working great for some...


I traveled extensively but funnily, didn't encounter particularly less enslaved in the states at all. Just my impression.

#24 rwac

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 08:28 PM

No, in Austria we don't knows of anyone like that. If you're broke at one time in your life you'll get necessary treatments done and are able to contribute to this system if you're better again. You aren't left treated inappropriate.


Well, it's hard to find much info on Austrian healthcare, since I don't speak German.
I'm going to bet that some sort of rationing does take place.

I have absolutely no clue. Do old people (>80) get expensive treatments like hip replacements ?
What are the waiting lists like for MRIs and things like that ?

#25 RighteousReason

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 08:43 PM

When you work 3, 4, 6 months of every year to have the fruits of your labor stolen from you at the point of a gun, what do you call that?

Don't know about you but it's working well in Europe, specifically Sweden or Austria or other countries.

I'm sure slavery is working great for some...


I traveled extensively but funnily, didn't encounter particularly less enslaved in the states at all. Just my impression.

I don't know what you are looking for, people running around with whips and chains? You could probably find that in San Fransisco, but that's another point :)

The measure we are using in this context is the quantity of your life['s work] that is seized at the point of a gun. You would probably reference something like this for comparison:

http://en.wikipedia....round_the_world

Edited by RighteousReason, 20 October 2009 - 08:46 PM.


#26 RighteousReason

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 08:58 PM

Providing good health care and making a profit are contrary aims.

Complete insanity. I don't even know where to begin with something like that. Go read Atlas Shrugged.

If something doesn't work for profit, what in the world makes you think it will work non-profit? Because the government can always seize more using its guns? What happens when they have seized everything?

ugh, mindlessness

And- in addition, have you noticed how spectacularly government tends to fail at everything?

If you think government can save money on healthcare…even though the exact same people that run government have brought you an almost $2 Trillion dollar deficit…and almost $100 Trillion in debt…almost double world GDP (all the money made in the world each year)…and despite the fact that government loses money in every department and every agency, at every level, every year since inception…YOU MIGHT BE A SOCIALIST.

… and you're definitely an IDIOT.


Yeah. Complete insanity that you would say that.


Oh, and government control and the inevitable rationing of healthcare certainly won't do you any good if this is your concern,

if you want to prevent needless deaths. I thought that's our business.



#27 pamojja

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 09:46 PM

I don't know what you are looking for, people running around with whips and chains? You could probably find that in San Fransisco, but that's another point :)

lol, didn't mean that.

At one point I hitchhiked across and heard again and again: "Are you mad? Don't you know there are many who shoot at hitchhikers for fun". But the fear of crime was something I haven't sensed anywhere since, .not even when I came across refugees just crossing from Ruanda to Goma in '94. Admittedly, now this paranoia is increasing in Europe too. Usually all new developments arrive here 10 years later - and I'm sure we'll advance till we will see a homeland security in Europe too.

The measure we are using in this context is the quantity of your life['s work] that is seized at the point of a gun. You would probably reference something like this for comparison:

http://en.wikipedia....round_the_world

Well, how about inflation as a measure of taxation as Greenspan outlined in this article?
http://www.dollardaz...0527&cat_id=123

Too bad with that much robbed already from the American people it only has been used for world dominance and the enrichment of the few. While not having shared some peanuts for the guaranteed health care of all.

But it's real curious how we perceive each other, some from the States may think Europeans are just sheeple delegating everything to government, while here it's just incomprehensible with what amount of ruthlessness some Americans look down to the weak and sick. But these are just perceptions and I could see incredible compassion in the states, while right wing stupitity here :-(. But in average we both aren't really that much different. And there are efforts on both sides to cut down on Government size.

I have absolutely no clue. Do old people (>80) get expensive treatments like hip replacements ?
What are the waiting lists like for MRIs and things like that ?

Austria is even better than some other European countries in this respect, when I needed an MRI's I got an appointment within a week. My mother just got her second hip with 71. Maybe kismet heard of anything to the contrary? I never did.

However, this system brings it's own disadvantages. We have a closely knit net of hospitals which need to have a percentage of beds occupied to not have to close some sections. Which, of course is good for the population, you're never to far away in case of an emergency. But what I dislike is remembering a few times I had to protest not to have to stay a few days in hospital for what would have been easily been possible during day care alone...

Edited by pamojja, 20 October 2009 - 09:56 PM.


#28 maxwatt

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 10:10 PM

Providing good health care and making a profit are contrary aims.

Complete insanity. I don't even know where to begin with something like that. Go read Atlas Shrugged.

If something doesn't work for profit, what in the world makes you think it will work non-profit? Because the government can always seize more using its guns? What happens when they have seized everything?

ugh, mindlessness

And- in addition, have you noticed how spectacularly government tends to fail at everything?

If you think government can save money on healthcare…even though the exact same people that run government have brought you an almost $2 Trillion dollar deficit…and almost $100 Trillion in debt…almost double world GDP (all the money made in the world each year)…and despite the fact that government loses money in every department and every agency, at every level, every year since inception…YOU MIGHT BE A SOCIALIST.

… and you're definitely an IDIOT.


Yeah. Complete insanity that you would say that.


Oh, and government control and the inevitable rationing of healthcare certainly won't do you any good if this is your concern,

if you want to prevent needless deaths. I thought that's our business.



Healthcare is already rationed by the insurance industry, and in a tremendously unfair manner.
Atlas Shrugged deals with the concept of the morality of rational self-interest. The two are not really connected. I believe the average person would pay the same or less for medical "insurance" with a public or regulated system like so many other countries have. The private sector has made an unholy mess out of healthcare, and it is worse than what the financial "industry" has been doing; one bankrupts people, the other kills them.

My son's Canadian girl friend's grandmother had a hip replacement at 82. No denial because of her age. The wait was three months, not out of line for such a chronic condition. She wasn't bumped for younger people. Tales of waiting lists are greatly exaggerated, and waiting beats denial which is what CIGNA, AETNA, United Health Care all do. The true tax rate for the middle class in high tax states in the Northeast or California is about 45 to 50 percent. The rate is much lower for those making much more than $300,000 or so, which sounds unfair. If you make enough, accountants can hide most of it, so the true tax rate or the wealthy is sometimes zero. But your average Canadian is paying less in taxes than the US middle class, and they seem to be getting a lot more back. The situation in the US looks even worse if you consider the hidden cost of paying for health insurance that is subsidizing insurance companies with 30% of premiums, and the extra costs of doctors gaming the system for greater profits.

There are over 30 countries whose health care systems are rated as better than the United States (number 37, WHO report). Some like Switzerland (number 20) are totally private, others like France (number one) totally public, others a mix. This isn't rocket science. If someone else is doing it right it would seem to make sense to follow their example. What we have doesn't work.

Edited by maxwatt, 20 October 2009 - 10:13 PM.


#29 tunt01

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 10:14 PM

2/3rds of all home mortages issued in the US are done through companies held in conservatorship with credit backed by the US gov't. where is the outrage over that? why should renters have to pay full price per month and home owners get a tax break (interest writeoff)?

add healthcare, to the long list of other items like housing which gets politicized and improperly treated.

#30 RighteousReason

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Posted 20 October 2009 - 10:20 PM

Healthcare is already rationed by the insurance industry

Waht the hell are you talking about? Insurance companies don't even provide healthcare. They provide insurance.

There are many many solutions that are actually sane and helpful that do not involve putting us on the path to government run healthcare which would be a complete catastrophe if you care about health. I don't know if you know anything about government run... anything here in the US. It is predictable failure in a huge way.

I don't really care to list all of the sane solutions that are out there, I know about a lot of them and if you cared about health you could look them up yourself. If you care about putting power in the hands of politicians, increasing the size of the US federal government, redistribution of wealth, etc etc, go ahead and ignore the threats this poses to your health and root Obama! Obama! Change change change! all the way to the grave

Edited by RighteousReason, 20 October 2009 - 10:24 PM.





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