24 replies to this topic

[ajnast4r]

Selenium

[ajnast4r]

my suggestion is 55mcg, 100% DRI as methylselenocysteine or selenomethionine

Edited by ajnast4r, 29 October 2009 - 01:52 AM.

[Blue]

Methylselenocysteine may or may not be absorbed and used well by humans. Very few, if any, direct human studies on this.

[ajnast4r]

Methylselenocysteine may or may not be absorbed and used well by humans. Very few, if any, direct human studies on this.

i agree... im torn between the two. i have to do a bit more research on it...

[Blue]

Methylselenocysteine may or may not be absorbed and used well by humans. Very few, if any, direct human studies on this.

i agree... im torn between the two. i have to do a bit more research on it...

Here is a long review and opinion by EFSA. The closest thing to a human bioavailability study seems to be an uncertain study on selenium from broccoli which is mostly methylselenocysteine and seemed well absorbed but "The author concluded that humans retain and distribute selenium from broccoli in a different manner than selenium from inorganic salts".
http://www.efsa.euro...f?ssbinary=true

[pycnogenol]

Yes. [200 mcg. / q.o.d., no weekends]

[ajnast4r]

Yes. [200 mcg. / q.o.d., no weekends]

why 200? wasnt that dose shown to cause increased incidence of diabetes?

[FunkOdyssey]

my suggestion is 55mcg, 100% DRI as methylselenocysteine or selenomethionine

Seconded

[waldemar]

From Wikipedia article on Selenium:
" The SU.VI.MAX study^[44] concluded that low-dose supplementation (with 120 mg of ascorbic acid, 30 mg of vitamin E, 6 mg of beta carotene, 100 µg of selenium, and 20 mg of zinc) resulted in a 30% reduction in the incidence of cancer and a 37% reduction in all-cause mortality in males"

-> I suggest 100 µg, as this seems to be much below the limit. 200 µg seems a little too much.

[ajnast4r]

selenium is fairly available in the diet... i think 100mcg supplemental + dietary would put quite a few people, especially in the LE crowd, close to that 200mcg range.

[kismet]

From Wikipedia article on Selenium:
" The SU.VI.MAX study^[44] concluded that low-dose supplementation (with 120 mg of ascorbic acid, 30 mg of vitamin E, 6 mg of beta carotene, 100 µg of selenium, and 20 mg of zinc) resulted in a 30% reduction in the incidence of cancer and a 37% reduction in all-cause mortality in males"

-> I suggest 100 µg, as this seems to be much below the limit. 200 µg seems a little too much.

In a nutritionally deficient, Chinese population AFAIK.

[waldemar]

In a nutritionally deficient, Chinese population AFAIK.

Nope. "The study involves 12,735 eligible subjects (women aged 35 to 60 years; men aged 45 to 60 years) included in 1994 in France. They will be followed up for 8 years."
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9503043

[Blue]

In a nutritionally deficient, Chinese population AFAIK.

Nope. "The study involves 12,735 eligible subjects (women aged 35 to 60 years; men aged 45 to 60 years) included in 1994 in France. They will be followed up for 8 years."
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9503043

The US soils generally have much higher selenium content than in Europe.

"It is of interest to note that the serum selenium levels of individuals in most European countries, even those supplemented with selenium, are lower than in unsupplemented Americans (13). If selenium supplementation can reduce cancer risk in low-selenium subjects, then Europe would have been a better place to conduct a cancer prevention trial at the SELECT scale."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2718722/

This paper also writes that "SELECT used pure L-selenomethionine as the intervention agent (1, 2), whereas other human trials and animal studies have demonstrated anti-tumorigenic efficacy for selenite and selenium-enriched baker’s yeast. Although L-selenomethionine represents the major form of selenium in high-selenium yeast, that product has been shown to include other chemical forms of selenium (11). Selenomethionine provides selenium for selenoprotein biosynthesis via the transsulfuration pathway, but it can be diverted from that pathway into general protein synthesis––in lieu of its sulfur-analog, methionine––and it can be used in a number of other ways (Figure 1). This differentiates selenomethionine from other selenium compounds, which cannot be so diverted and, therefore, are methylated to form methylselenol, a presumptive antitumorigenic metabolite methylselenol (12)."

[Blue]

There are some who care about avoiding a high methionine intake. That would be another reason for using inorganic selenium.

Edited by Blue, 02 November 2009 - 03:59 PM.

[pycnogenol]

Yes. [200 mcg. / q.o.d., no weekends]

why 200? wasnt that dose shown to cause increased incidence of diabetes?

Why not? I take 200 micrograms every other day, no weekends. Sometimes
I even skip a week (or more) and don't take any selenium. My A1c is 5.5 and
my glucose readings are in the normal range.

[nameless]

Why not? I take 200 micrograms every other day, no weekends. Sometimes
I even skip a week (or more) and don't take any selenium. My A1c is 5.5 and
my glucose readings are in the normal range.

Is 5.5 considered a healthy A1c? It's not in diabetes-land yet, but it's higher than what my doctors have said is a healthy range. They like to see it below 5.

Not that high levels of selenium is responsible... mostly just curious what is considered a good A1c level.

[pycnogenol]

Why not? I take 200 micrograms every other day, no weekends. Sometimes
I even skip a week (or more) and don't take any selenium. My A1c is 5.5 and
my glucose readings are in the normal range.

Is 5.5 considered a healthy A1c? It's not in diabetes-land yet, but it's higher than what my doctors have said is a healthy range. They like to see it below 5.

Not that high levels of selenium is responsible... mostly just curious what is considered a good A1c level.

Well, yes, for me a 5.5 A1c is kick-ass good. I have a family history of type 2 diabetes.

Ok, now that I got my marching orders I'll try to get it down below 5.0. I'm only doing this just for you!

What did your doctors tell you is a healthy A1c range? You'll have to excuse me I've got a walk to take.

Edited by pycnogenol, 02 November 2009 - 05:45 PM.

[waldemar]

The US soils generally have much higher selenium content than in Europe.

"It is of interest to note that the serum selenium levels of individuals in most European countries, even those supplemented with selenium, are lower than in unsupplemented Americans (13). If selenium supplementation can reduce cancer risk in low-selenium subjects, then Europe would have been a better place to conduct a cancer prevention trial at the SELECT scale."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2718722/

Some people here, like kismet, karl_bednarik, and myself are from Central Europe, so this strongly applies to us. I still suggest 100 µg, this little won't hurt anyone from the US.

[ajnast4r]

Some people here, like kismet, karl_bednarik, and myself are from Central Europe, so this strongly applies to us. I still suggest 100 µg, this little won't hurt anyone from the US.

this is bad logic... the burden of increased supplementation would be on you and the rest from eu, not simply that everyone in the US could just 'deal with the extra'

[nameless]

What did your doctors tell you is a healthy A1c range? You'll have to excuse me I've got a walk to take.

I tested at 5.4 several years ago, and my doc said she likes to see it below 5. I changed my diet, and started grapeseed and/or pycnogenol, and for the last two years it's been around 4.5-4.6, which I've been told is fine.

But I don't know what is the ideal A1c. Lower may be even better, but I expect a person can only go so low before low sugar levels become a problem.

As for forms to use, this may sound like a weird suggestion, and not sure if it even makes sense, but why not use a mix of several forms, if a consensus can't be reached on the ideal form?

How much methionine is in 55mcg of L-selenomethionine? I'd think it'd have to be pretty low.

[Blue]

I said before that the bioavailability of methylselenocysteine in human is uncertain. I will modify that somewhat. From the EFSA review.

It has been reported that humans readily absorb selenium from broccoli (Finley, 1999); in which the predominant form of selenium has been shown to be Se-methylselenocysteine (Cai et al., 1995). In a study in which 27 healthy young male subjects were placed on a low selenium (32.6 μg/day) or high selenium (226.5 μg/day) diet for 85 days, and then fed a test meal that contained selenium-74 [74Se] in the form of selenite or selenate, or selenium-82 [82Se] incorporated into hydroponically-raised broccoli, isotope absorption was similar for selenate and for selenium from broccoli, while the results obtained for selenite were highly variable (Finley, 1999). Maximal plasma concentration of selenium occurred within a few hours after ingestion. Urinary isotope excretion was greater when selenate was fed than when broccoli was fed, and consequently more selenium from broccoli, as compared to selenate, was retained (59.2 ± 2.4 and 36.4 ± 4.6% for selenium in broccoli and selenate, respectively). However, despite the higher retention, the maximal plasma concentration of isotope and area under curve (AUC) were significantly lower when the isotope source was broccoli than when it was selenate. The author concluded that humans retain and distribute selenium from broccoli in a different manner than selenium from inorganic salts (Finley, 1999). The study also showed that significantly more isotope was absorbed by subjects previously fed the high selenium diet than by those fed the low selenium diet. The Panel noted that interpretation of the results of this study is complicated by possible interactions between dietary sulphur (e.g. in the form of sulphate) and selenium.

Based on data from bioavailability and toxicity studies in the rat, mouse and dog, the Panel considers that Se-methylselenocysteine is readily absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract and selenium is bioavailable from this source, although there is a lack of data on its bioavailability relative to that from other selenium compounds, either inorganic (e.g. selenite or selenate) or organic (e.g. selenomethionine).

Selenium is bioavailable from Se-methylselenocysteine, and the Panel concludes that the bioavailability is likely to be similar to that from other organic selenium compounds.

The Panel considers that the toxicity of Se-methylselenocysteine is broadly similar to or possibly higher than that seen for other forms of selenium.

Why consider methylselenocysteine? In animal studies it is the best form against cancer. Selenomethionine is the worst.

[kismet]

Nope. "The study involves 12,735 eligible subjects (women aged 35 to 60 years; men aged 45 to 60 years) included in 1994 in France. They will be followed up for 8 years."
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9503043

Right, I guess I confused it with a similar Chinese study. Although, it could still be noise or diet-related (as benefits were only found in males). I've been planning to supplement Se but I wouldn't want to go much if at all above the RDA. I wouldn't feel comfortable with a 100mcg supp and the data is not that strong to begin with.

[FunkOdyssey]

my vote: 55mcg as methylselenocysteine (55mcg elemental)

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 02 November 2009 - 07:44 PM.

[ajnast4r]

my vote: 55mcg as methylselenocysteine (55mcg elemental)

ill second that

[shazam]

my vote: 55mcg as methylselenocysteine (55mcg elemental)

ill second that

Thirded.