97 replies to this topic

[SandJ]

Sorry to cross post, but I think this information is important.

I have recently compiled a blog giving links to some of the somewhat more 'mainstream' (I'm sure people will argue this with me) concerns voiced about the Swine Flu vaccine.

A piece that I think is exceptional and must be seen - Teresa Forcades, doctor in Public Health, Benedictine Nun and doctor of internal medicine who, amongst other things, discusses the admitted contamination this winter with live Bird Flu (high mortality, low infection) and common flu virus (low mortality, high infection rate i.e. = pandemic) in vaccines produced by Baxter.

Do go to the blog and look at these videos. She's a stunning, balanced speaker.

There are also links to Jane Burgermeister's website - a medical journalist who has filed criminal charges in Austria against Baxter and Avir Green Hills Biotechnology for producing and distributing contaminated bird flu vaccine material this winter, alleging that this was a deliberate act to cause a pandemic, and also to profit from that pandemic.

[kismet]

Please link to official documents. Videos are not evidence...

[pamojja]

Please link to official documents. Videos are not evidence...

According to these videos never any double blind placebo controlled studies have been done about the efficacy of flu shots.

Still so many many here at ImmInst seem to believe getting a flu shot is the most reasonable course of action.

Without evidence adhering to either side it remains a matter of faith and one's own responsibility alone.

Certainly, in lack of any serious scientific evidence I'll not succumb to WHO's threat and wont get vaccinated even if put to jail.

[kismet]

According to these videos never any double blind placebo controlled studies have been done about the efficacy of flu shots. Well, I hoped for official sources documenting the allegations the other poster was talking about. But on the topic of RCTs: no we don't need them to make an educated guess, in fact most of our choices are based on sub-par evidence, including well-controlled, powerful, prospective epidemiology and strong biological plausibilty. As a matter of fact, RCTs are not always doable nor necessary.

Still so many many here at ImmInst seem to believe getting a flu shot is the most reasonable course of action. Based on the evidence, that is.

Without evidence adhering to either side it remains a matter of faith and one's own responsibility alone.

Certainly, in lack of any serious scientific evidence I'll not succumb to WHO's threat and wont get vaccinated even if put to jail. That's great to know, but completely irrelevant to the discussion, because there's no such threat as of now.

Emphasis mine:

[me likes the new term they coined] "methodolatry," which is, as revere puts it, the "profane worship of the randomized clinical trial as the only valid method of investigation."
...
[A]n RCT is not the "only" way to know if a flu vaccine works. It may be the most rigorous way to determine if a flu vaccine (or any other intervention) works. It may be the methodology that would provide the clearest answer (assuming the RCT is properly done). It may be the methodology that allows researchers to control variables the best. However, it is most definitely not the "only" way to know if an intervention works. There are numerous other strategies, and they are all being used. Moreover, such an RCT would not necessarily be nearly as easy to do as Brownlee naively thinks.
...
If there is good reason to believe that one arm will be receiving inferior care, then an RCT is not considered ethical because it would be randomizing patients to a treatment (or lack of treatment) that is either inferior or potentially harmful.

http://scienceblogs....1_influenza.php

I can't find the observational trial(s) I had in mind, though.

Edited by kismet, 22 November 2009 - 05:09 PM.

[rasnjo]

Still so many many here at ImmInst seem to believe getting a flu shot is the most reasonable course of action.

Without evidence adhering to either side it remains a matter of faith and one's own responsibility alone.

It always remains a matter of faith, one side of the argument may just have more supporting evidence. Even if a couple of double-blind placebo studies had been done we would have to worry about statistical anomalies, possible tampering of data, flawed experimental setup, possible biased studies, etc. Of course my faith in the vaccine would be considerably higher given some double blind placebo studies, especially if carried out by opposing organizations. However I think the present evidence is enough that for many people the sensible choice is likely to get the vaccine. I trust the vaccine because:
- Large pharmaceutical organizations know how to produce flu vaccines as witnessed by the large number of successful seasonal flu vaccines. Given that this new vaccine is produced in much the same way I trust that it's effective.
- Studies have been made that show that people administered the vaccine show signs of considerably improved immunity.
- I don't believe double-blind placebo studies are vital to studying a flu vaccine as very little placebo effect occurs when the effect is evaluated using blood tests.
- Very few serious adverse effects have been observered.
I'm in a risk group and have been offered the vaccine for free and gladly accepted it. I have never seen any serious scientific article showing unforeseen dangers in any modern flu vaccine produced by a large pharmaceutical company, and while the proof of safety is really the responsibility of the organization, the fact that noone has proved them wrong yet shows me that they know what they're doing, as many are trying to prove them wrong.

Certainly, in lack of any serious scientific evidence I'll not succumb to WHO's threat and wont get vaccinated even if put to jail.

Who threatened you? WHO? I haven't heard of mandatory vaccination anywhere. It's completely your choice.

I take it on faith and a number of indications that the vaccine is likely to improve both my own and others' expected health (including studies that while not double blind placebo are still valid). I do not have solid scientific backing, but I'm afraid that waiting for that may actually be the irrational thing to do due to the possibility of being infected.

[pamojja]

It always remains a matter of faith, ... However I think the present evidence is enough that for many people the sensible choice is likely to get the vaccine. I trust the vaccine because:

And I distrust it:

Does the Vaccine Matter?
.. Yet in the view of several vaccine skeptics, this claim is suspicious on its face. Influenza causes only a small minority of all deaths in the U.S., even among senior citizens, and even after adding in the deaths to which flu might have contributed indirectly. When researchers from the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases included all deaths from illnesses that flu aggravates, like lung disease or chronic heart failure, they found that flu accounts for, at most, 10 percent of winter deaths among the elderly. So how could flu vaccine possibly reduce total deaths by half? Tom Jefferson, a physician based in Rome and the head of the Vaccines Field at the Cochrane Collaboration, a highly respected international network of researchers who appraise medical evidence, says: “For a vaccine to reduce mortality by 50 percent and up to 90 percent in some studies means it has to prevent deaths not just from influenza, but also from falls, fires, heart disease, strokes, and car accidents. That’s not a vaccine, that’s a miracle.”

Who threatened you? WHO? I haven't heard of mandatory vaccination anywhere. It's completely your choice.

The legal ground has been laid that in the case of a serious pandemic all member states are obliged to vaccinate everyone, if not wanting to face consequences. If that happens it wont be your choice anymore. But the future will show how this will unfold.

I take it on faith and a number of indications that the vaccine is likely to improve both my own and others' expected health (including studies that while not double blind placebo are still valid). I do not have solid scientific backing, but I'm afraid that waiting for that may actually be the irrational thing to do due to the possibility of being infected.

Let's not confuse rationality with faith.

Personally having started with high dosage orthomolecular medicine a year ago against a PAD I experienced amazing results - additional to the improvement of my claudatio intermittens - like having stopped a seasonal hay fewer I had for years, stopped an terrible chest pain I've been to hospital for weeks without any treatment found, stopped a rush I had for months..

So I have no doubt that with this boost to my immunity through orthomolecular medicine - particularly vit C and D3 - I'm sufficiently prepared to take it on with the swine flu too. But this is confidence grown out of my own experience. Just as your faith is indicating the opposite. Both stances are very understandable - not irrational - but without serious science in support. But then, my last experience of a serious flu lies back in my childhood..

Something new to me I just read about the Ukrainian variety:
Ukraine; Virus Is Mixture Of H1N1 And Parainfluenza, Causes Cardiopulmonary Failure

[pamojja]

... (including studies that while not double blind placebo are still valid).

Then why not trust this study?

The effectiveness of vitamin C in preventing and relieving the symptoms of virus-induced respiratory infections.
RESULTS: Overall, reported flu and cold symptoms in the test group decreased 85% compared with the control group after the administration of megadose Vitamin C. CONCLUSION: Vitamin C in megadoses administered before or after the appearance of cold and flu symptoms relieved and prevented the symptoms in the test population compared with the control group.

But better be familiar with titrating C beforehand, to catch it right on the onset:
Vitamin C, Titrating to Tolerance

[Singularity]

The flu vaccines are lagged. The vaccines are based on last years strain. It takes 6 months to grow a vaccine. By the time you get your injection, there is probably a new strain out. It's all a scam. We've been fighting off viruses for 100,000 years. Unless your immune system is compromised, it's not worth the risks.