11 replies to this topic

[kismet]

Zinc yes, but why 11mg? I know that orthocore contains 11mg, but a. usually no one takes a full dose of orthocore and b. this is not justification in and of itself.
Prima facie 11mg seems already high as it is 100% of the DRI and our aim (or so I think) is to help people optimise their intake and achieve sufficient levels. Zinc is abundant in a regular omnivorous diet, while vegetarians may need some more. Those two diet types may have a very different Zinc:Cu balance - so could we be harming one over the other?

Generally I don't feel comfortable with completely arbitrary amounts (DRI/orthocore is not a justification for inclusion). OTOH if it is perfectly safe and would benefit some vegetarians, it may be a good choice. But is there any evidence to base the dose on?

Speculation: If we cut down on zinc, we could more safely reduce the copper dose -- assuming we decide to do the latter.

Edited by kismet, 15 November 2009 - 07:36 PM.

[nameless]

I have not run across any studies showing 11mg supplemental zinc causing a health problem. The lowest dose I've seen is 30mg, and that was in one study with elderly people.

And I'm not sure how abundant zinc is in diet really. I'll take your word for it that meat eaters get a lot of zinc, but I eat meat (albeit perhaps not often as I should) and my overall zinc intake pretty much stinks.

[kismet]

I have not run across any studies showing 11mg supplemental zinc causing a health problem.

Me neither (other than mixed data from observational studies re. prostate cancer), but showing sub-clinical problems is almost impossible. The question is why exactly 11mg? We can justify the vitamin D dose using real data, for instance. If we can't find RCTs, observational data would do or mechanistic speculation based on population intakes (how much do we need to prevent deficiency in most people? if we just want to do the latter 11mg is perhaps overkill).

Re. zinc and cancer most non-prostate related data is unfortunately from case-control studies.

Edited by kismet, 15 November 2009 - 08:34 PM.

[Blue]

The prostate cancer connection is quite unclear with epidemiological studies giving widely different results. Here is a recent review:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19684515

I think those eating vegetables and fruits are much more likely to have great copper excess. Possibly some paleo eater may have the opposite problem. Still, considering that high serum copper may be associated with various diseases and reduced mortality while high serum zinc is associated with improved mortality I think enough zinc should be the priority before copper.

Edited by Blue, 15 November 2009 - 09:00 PM.

[Pike]

wait.. my Jarrow "Zinc Balance" (containing zinc as l-monomethionate) is telling me 15mg is the 100%

if so, am i over zinc-ing?

[niner]

Still, considering that high serum copper may be associated with various diseases and reduced mortality while high serum zinc is associated with improved mortality I think enough zinc should be the priority before copper.

Reduced mortality is good. I think you mean increased.

[ajnast4r]

i think the dri is justification for an 11mg zinc dose...

unless someone is eating oysters or red meat daily there zinc will be in the 100-150% DRI range. the average imminster consuming copious amounts of vegetables & nuts will have a z:c balance in favor of copper. zinc also is susceptible to binding by fiber and phytates, so total uptake will likely be less actual intake.

[kismet]

i think the dri is justification for an 11mg zinc dose...

Either the evidence on which the DRI is based is justification or there is none.  I don't get this line of reasoning, though. AFAIK the DRI applies to a. total intakes to satisfy the needs of xx% of the population and b. dietary intakes. It is not a prescription for supplement manufacturers, or is it? Wouldn't using 50-80% of the DRI serve as a much better & conservative baseline, although,...

unless someone is eating oysters or red meat daily there zinc will be in the 100-150% DRI range. the average imminster consuming copious amounts of vegetables & nuts will have a z:c balance in favor of copper. zinc also is susceptible to binding by fiber and phytates, so total uptake will likely be less actual intake.

...that is a good argument, but OTOH paleo guys (not that I approve of such a diet) & those with an average diet will get plenty of zinc and will want to take the multi.

@Pike, no one knows if you don't check your diet via cron-o-meter, but as a rule of thumb most taking an additional 100% of the RDA (be it 11 or 15mg; 15mg may have been based on older data, as I also remember seeing this recommended intake) will be "overzincing"  (i.e. getting much more than necessary) -- the question is whether this has any effects (positive or negative). If a slight zinc imbalance isn't dangerous, it may be justification enough for this arbitrary dose.

I don't have strong feelings either way. Whether we include consverative or very conservative doses won't change the fact that a diet should be individualised using cron-o-meter (and individual supps) in the first place.

Edited by kismet, 16 November 2009 - 08:28 PM.

[Pike]

i think the dri is justification for an 11mg zinc dose...

Either the evidence on which the DRI is based is justification or there is none.  I don't get this line of reasoning, though. AFAIK the DRI applies to a. total intakes to satisfy the needs of xx% of the population and b. dietary intakes. It is not a prescription for supplement manufacturers, or is it? Wouldn't using 50-80% of the DRI serve as a much better & conservative baseline, although,...

unless someone is eating oysters or red meat daily there zinc will be in the 100-150% DRI range. the average imminster consuming copious amounts of vegetables & nuts will have a z:c balance in favor of copper. zinc also is susceptible to binding by fiber and phytates, so total uptake will likely be less actual intake.

...that is a good argument, but OTOH paleo guys (not that I approve of such a diet) & those with an average diet will get plenty of zinc and will want to take the multi.

@Pike, no one knows if you don't check your diet via cron-o-meter, but as a rule of thumb most taking an additional 100% of the RDA (be it 11 or 15mg; 15mg may have been based on older data, as I also remember seeing this recommended intake) will be "overzincing"  (i.e. getting much more than necessary) -- the question is whether this has any effects (positive or negative). If a slight zinc imbalance isn't dangerous, it may be justification enough for this arbitrary dose.

I don't have strong feelings either way. Whether we include consverative or very conservative doses won't change the fact that a diet should be individualised using cron-o-meter (and individual supps) in the first place.

well, my reason for supplementing zinc was not originally for the purpose of life-extension, as it would be (and hopefully not arbitrary!). i started supping zinc because i found some literature showing how awesome it was for treating ADHD (which i have >> combined inattentive-impulsive type.) and, although i haven't looked it up specifically, i read somewhere on the ADHD boards that zinc will also boost the efficacy of other ADHD meds, which spells out a lower dose for me (and the lower the dose, the better with those things). that, plus i think my prescrip amphetamines do a good job of punching my zinc levels in the face (but i'm not sure about this aspect). i know they deplete magnesium, i might be confusing it for zinc.

either way, my reason was for ADHD, not because i was worried about a defficiency/insufficiency.

when it comes to life-extension, my forte of knowledge is in nootropics, so zinc would be out of my specialty. any of you Imminsters out there know if an extra supplemented 15mg per day could start tinkering me in the wrong way? <<-- on that note, i DON'T take a multivitamin, so i don't have any other supplemental zinc in my day.

also: is cron-o-meter macintosh friendly?

edit: oh, and when i said "over zincing" i meant it in the sense of toxicity. off-hand, i thought i remembered reading that too much zinc will have immunosuppressant effects, so now i'm a bit concerned if i should take this zinc supp.

Edited by Pike, 16 November 2009 - 10:51 PM.

[nameless]

edit: oh, and when i said "over zincing" i meant it in the sense of toxicity. off-hand, i thought i remembered reading that too much zinc will have immunosuppressant effects, so now i'm a bit concerned if i should take this zinc supp.

I think it'll only have an immunosuppressant effect if you are eating oysters and meat all day. In other words, your daily zinc intake will have to be pretty high for 15mg to put you over the edge. The zinc-copper balance shouldn't be altered much either, seeing as copper is in the product too.

But without analyzing your diet, you are just guessing.

Two other options, with limited usefuless perhaps:

Try the zinc taste test. I think iHerb sells it, and also a cheaper liquid zinc from Thorne (should be the same exact thing).
Get serum levels tested for zinc and copper and hope they are semi-accurate.

[ajnast4r]

Either the evidence on which the DRI is based is justification or there is none.  I don't get this line of reasoning, though. AFAIK the DRI applies to a. total intakes to satisfy the needs of xx% of the population and b. dietary intakes. It is not a prescription for supplement manufacturers, or is it? Wouldn't using 50-80% of the DRI serve as a much better & conservative baseline, although,..

dri covers 98% of the population... people will be able to titrate their dose by taking less pills. the product will be either 2 or 4 pills, so if they want less they can take less. even in a moderate-high zinc intake 11-15mg is not going to put you over the edge.

...that is a good argument, but OTOH paleo guys (not that I approve of such a diet) & those with an average diet will get plenty of zinc and will want to take the multi.

paleo guys are not the majority and the product should not be formulated with their specific needs n mind

[shazam]

15 MG of L-optizinc with 500-750mcg of an AAC copper to keep it relatively balanced. Should work fine.