57 replies to this topic

[Luna]

That's one of the reasons I think it must be infinite too!
That loop is making no sense, when was the start one?

[exapted]

That's one of the reasons I think it must be infinite too!
That loop is making no sense, when was the start one?

If our universe/world is finite, there could still be "many worlds" (quantum mechanics) or an ensemble of universes somehow leading to our universe at some point.

Imagine all time and space as "just there", and the arrow of time as a certain emergent point of view. No end and no beginning, except as viewed from an emergent POV within the universe, the only real POV we know of. That seems simpler (by abductive reasoning) than imagining that *our* universe/world is infinite.

I agree with Schmidhuber and Deutsche that the MWI of quantum mechanics seems the simplest solution to Schrodinger's cat. I'm interested in *our* world/universe because that's the one we observe. Who cares about the others? I guess that's my bias, since I think the most interesting and pressing problem for humanity to solve right now is understanding intelligence/information/physics in our universe.

[exapted]

What is the Ultimate Ensemble Theory of Everything?

All structures that exist mathematically also exist physically. This is in the sense that "in those complex enough to contain self-aware substructures (SASs), these SASs will subjectively perceive themselves as existing in a physically 'real' world".

http://en.wikipedia....erse_hypothesis

That is indeed a mind-blowing theory. I've started reading about it. I see that, if it is accurate, then our universe is as large/divisible as we make it, so "our world" ends up being neither finite nor infinite in the sense of truth that includes limitless hypothetical futures. I have a hard time believing this theory, but it is interesting, and challenges the idea of a finite universe.

Edited by exapted, 29 November 2009 - 10:45 PM.

[exapted]

Here is an interesting solution to why we might not observer superintelligence if the universe is infinite: http://www.accelerat...rmiparadox.html

Briefly, maybe complex systems develop inwardly rather than expanding.

[Luna]

Just because someone said the cat is both dead and alive because we don't know what it really is, doesn't mean it's true and therefore doesn't need such an effort to explain it and apply it to everything else, especially super macro sized.

And the cat is either dead or alive when you look at it.

All this many worlds theory is all nice and well, but it just sounds nice.
It could be, it might not be, you can't know yet, I remember so many times people were so excited about the theories THEY believe in, might be "branches collides and OHH here is our universe!" or this or that.
Then comes another and says "No! branches don't exist! there are X extra dimensions and this and that happened.. stop being such an idiot! look at the FACTS!"
Honestly, it's like religion! what facts! both offers facts for two very different stories and seem like about to kill each other for they won't be convinced.

It's just like time, just because we perceive it, doesn't mean it exists! time is just an imaginary measurement tool used by change. Besides one second is
"the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom"

So when that happened, a "second" passed, but it doesn't mean time exists, it just means things aren't moving instantly and are everywhere all the time, things just move based on energy.
That's why we can't travel in time. How do we plan to travel to the future? by slowing ourselves so the world moves faster. but it's not time we are slowing, it's the energy, movement.

[Luna]

Oh ,also once you decide time doesn't exists, theories of the universe lose a question which makes a lot of troubles sometimes "how did time get created".
Once time doesn't need to be created, there is no problem, and we can go back starting from infinite vacuum that something happened in, somehow.

We also stop asking "So how long was it just vacuum before that" I guess.

[Cyberbrain]

Oh ,also once you decide time doesn't exists, theories of the universe lose a question which makes a lot of troubles sometimes "how did time get created".
Once time doesn't need to be created, there is no problem, and we can go back starting from infinite vacuum that something happened in, somehow.

You're thinking in epistemological terms, instead of mathematical. Time is a dimension, but it doesn't need to be created unlike space. It doesn't require a beginning and an end, it's just relative to space. Consider it a branch or cousin of space.

I used to think the universe was just an infinite vacuum beyond the matter and energy of galaxies. But it turns out it has an edge which is more like space being curved around it self.

[Luna]

No, it turns out that you BELIEVE it has an edge and that I believe it doesn't have an edge.

[Singularity]

No, it turns out that you BELIEVE it has an edge and that I believe it doesn't have an edge.

I can't believe in either of them. Both are impossible. And it really doesn't make much sense to say something curves in on itself. The mind will still ask, what is outside of this thing which curves in on itself? Even on one dimension, an infinite line that curves around to form a circle implies another dimension for the curving. Then, if you curve that next dimension, that implies another, and so on.

Now I know why Cantor went crazy while working on his mathematics of infinities.

[Cyberbrain]

No, it turns out that you BELIEVE it has an edge and that I believe it doesn't have an edge.

If by you, you mean the scientific community then sure.

[JackChristopher]

What is the Ultimate Ensemble Theory of Everything?

All structures that exist mathematically also exist physically. This is in the sense that "in those complex enough to contain self-aware substructures (SASs), these SASs will subjectively perceive themselves as existing in a physically 'real' world".

http://en.wikipedia....erse_hypothesis

That is indeed a mind-blowing theory. I've started reading about it. I see that, if it is accurate, then our universe is as large/divisible as we make it, so "our world" ends up being neither finite nor infinite in the sense of truth that includes limitless hypothetical futures. I have a hard time believing this theory, but it is interesting, and challenges the idea of a finite universe.

I believe it's either finite or infinite depending on what assumptions I start with—I hold both views:

I believe, but of course can't prove, the universe is finite. I also believe that this universe is part of a much larger (perhaps infinite) multiverse. But! I have no way to know if this "finiteness" is an illusion or that it can break down under certain conditions. Could you break out of your own (or your universe's) finiteness somehow?

P.S. Many-worlds seems like it can't be proven because we can't "observe" other universes. But we can "detect" them. I admit, that language is nonsense sounding. But there's a long FAQ on many-worlds that answers how we do that.

[JackChristopher]

Oh, I forgot to add why I believe what I do:

Once I asked myself, what do I know to exist? Ans: Me. I'm a being experiencing stuff. I'm a conscious entity interacting with some sort of reality. Maybe this is a simulation. But I must exist is some kind of way. I can think of a past or future, but I can't prove they exist. What if I was just uploaded with false memories? I only know of my immediate experience.

So I'm a conscious being experiencing some kind of reality right now. What's the simplest way to explana how I exist? Or to put it in CompSci terms, what the simplest algorithm to output me? What theory makes the fewest assumptions about how I was generated?

I could guess a few things:
1) I'm the only thing in existence. Solipsism. This is my universe. ... doubt it, but can't prove it.
2) My reality is being generated by my consciousness ... maybe, don't know.
b) And I'm just one universe in the multiverse.
3) Reality was already here and I'm just one observer of it ... maybe, don't know.
b) I'm just one observer in a universe, but I may be in a multiverse.

Thing is, all these scenarios look identical to an observer from inside of any of those universes. I dismiss 1) for a host of reasons. One major one is because the algorithm to output that scenario has laughably high K-complexity. It's like saying, existence came into existence just for my own existence specifically.

In that paper Tegmark is speculating that 2/2b is correct. But allows 3/3b as a possibility. 3 is what most people on these forums seem to assume true. The salient part of the paper, s something I also realized on my own: "an accurate description of the state of the universe appears to require a mind-bogglingly large and perhaps even infinite amount of information, even if we restrict our attention to a small subsystem such as a rabbit." So, either the universe is described completely at a finite level of detail Or it takes an infinite amount of detail to describe any arbitrarily defined object in a universe.

Edited by JackChristopher, 02 December 2009 - 03:47 AM.

[Inquisitive1iam]

The universe is the realm of nothing, a void, it has no shape or size, it is infinite.

It is the empty space where finite amounts energy and time are contained by its infinite dimensions. Our Known universe - a tangible reality of energy.

Our universe and reality was formed inside and continues to exsist inside infinite demesions of black holes. I call it black hole stacking and we are exsisting within one level of an infinate stack.

Each having their own realm of time and reality and levels of energy.

To cross between these realms, one would lose all foreknowledge of a past reality and in time reshape or bond to the current and existing reality of the new realm.

Have a good day

[Luna]

If the universe is infinite, and so is energy, than it's not a limiting factor.

If the universe isn't and the big crunch or rip or cold or heat (entropy) or whatever, what can we do about it to stop it and survive it forever?

And please, no multiverse "escape to a different universe" argument because we don't KNOW if it is possible or if we can go there or if it is even there.

[Inquisitive1iam]

If the universe is infinite, and so is energy, than it's not a limiting factor.

If the universe isn't and the big crunch or rip or cold or heat (entropy) or whatever, what can we do about it to stop it and survive it forever?

And please, no multiverse "escape to a different universe" argument because we don't KNOW if it is possible or if we can go there or if it is even there.

read what i wrote again slowly and take it in for its literal sense.

energy is FINITE....
the void is INFINITE. the void is not energy it is empty space.

[Luna]

If the universe is infinite, and so is energy, than it's not a limiting factor.

If the universe isn't and the big crunch or rip or cold or heat (entropy) or whatever, what can we do about it to stop it and survive it forever?

And please, no multiverse "escape to a different universe" argument because we don't KNOW if it is possible or if we can go there or if it is even there.

read what i wrote again slowly and take it in for its literal sense.

energy is FINITE....
the void is INFINITE. the void is not energy it is empty space.

Well I am not sure if I agree on that.
But we aren't sure yet.

The universe must have came somehow, not just be, that's why I believe that the void isn't truly all that voidish.
It obviously poses a lot of other problems but fixes some others too.

I am also not sure that I agree with the rest of your description of black holes and all that, sounds like the multiverse in a different variation.
Thing that troubles me, why everyone has to sound so arrogant and sure of themselves "Read what I said, this is how it is, good day", we barely know anything! this is why when it come to physics I would always say this is my opinion/belief, I should even add *CURRENT* opinion/belief.

Edited by Luna, 07 December 2009 - 04:52 PM.

[Omega Point]

Here's my personal view:

I think the universe is infinite in all dimensions, complexity, and time. The usual sense of infinity refers to the extent of space and time from our size on and from our moment on. But I'm referring to all directions. I mean, the universe is also infinite in smallness. The particles that we see are just the external look of an infinite universe, as infinitely complex as ours but approaches to an ultimate end. All electrons are just such universes that share similar fate. They look the same, but only the characteristics observable are very close only by probability. All constants of the universe are just approximations created by statistical contributions of infinite numbers of processes. In other words, we're floating at the edge of infinity ourselves. Our universe may possibly be just one particle in a larger universe that is contributed by our peer universes that are isolated from ours. Even if those peer universes have different details, their ultimate fate on their event horizon will have similar characteristics to our universe. We may ask questions like, what about speed of light and how any sort of interaction can happen in such a larger universe. Well, perhaps in such a larger universe, even the light itself is not what we now call light. Light is just an information carrier. So perhaps, in this next level of universe the light is also an emergent phenomenon. Probably a wave of something that is flowing from one universe to another. In this larger universe the concept of time might be stretched out to eons. One can imagine such physics that runs in time that takes trillions of (our) years, but when compressed, will look like our physics. Just imagine, one universe expanding and colliding with another which creates some sort of a particle collision which explodes gazillions miniature universes into the bulk. Perhaps, there's even life in this higher level universe. Infinity is a playful concept. You can pull out infinities from infinities. So if what I'm suggesting is correct, in any direction you point, you will necessarily find some sort of intelligence developed at some scale smaller or bigger. Perhaps life is a rare phenomenon, but remember the universe 'is infinite'. And infinity means all possibilities is already out there somewhere.

How about our own universe, at our scale? I believe there's abundance of life out there. Even intelligence life could exist. But perhaps, when we think of intelligence, we're just being ignorant and thinking it's the ultimate weapon of survival against anything and once intelligence arises, it has to exist. Perhaps, intelligence as we know it, is not the ultimate answer for survival. Perhaps, all those intelligent civilizations had to perish because of their unstability. Human brain operates at its stability threshold. We're just barely intelligent. We can't even define exactly what intelligence is, and even what life is. Perhaps such civilizations existed in the universe but their life time was like a blink of an eye in the cosmic time. In order to coincide with another civilization that is capable of sending radio waves, you must overlap their existance window. This may be quite small which is why we don't get any message from them. Thinking optimistically, if any of them actually survives, it will probably not be in sync with our age. They will probably be millions of years older than us. Even if they are just a few hundred, or thousand years older than us, they would be so far ahead technologically, we might not be able even recognize them. Imagine life on earth was created by such a civilizaition, without living their trace. They create life without using the sort of machines we know. They use nanomachines, or directly matter itself. Even nanomachiens are not too far from what we can imagine. Just think about what a million year old civilization can come up with. I think it's impossible even to give a guess. One day, if we discover intelligence in the universe, it will highly possibly be so far ahead of us, we will think it's divine or something. Rather than UFOs, we will probably meet intelligent agents that transcend space and time. It's highly likely that whatever we meet, will not be the original species that evolved, but rather a designed being that superceds its creator. Perhaps they will be the design of a designer of designer of designer... Perhaps, they are already in search of why universe is so abundant with life. They could just do billion year experiment to solve the mystery. Create a world that is isolated from the rest of the civilized universe. Isolate them so much that once intelligence arises, if any, they will think they are alone.

Edited by Omega Point, 22 March 2010 - 03:07 AM.

[shifter]

Everyone has a different point of view, and I find each one very stimulating to the imagination. Possibilities are endless.

I believe if the human race is ever going to explore the cosmos, I don't think it will do so in a mortal corporeal form. Eventually (as much as I like this human form) our race will have to evolve beyond it much like as proposed in another thread being an 'Eternal Mind'. An immortal existence where we have uploaded our conscious onto an internet (which we would call something else by then and hopefully not hooked up to a 'physical' apparatus which is subject to damage or destruction).

We may be the creators of our own 'afterlife' in the future. We could transform ourselves into pure energy and explore the universe unhindered by a physical body. Maybe the cosmic rays we are bombarded with is intelligent life on some level way beyond our current understanding?

What we do know about the universe is only a drop in a huge ocean of information. (And just how much that we know is correct?) One that perhaps someday we will eventually grasp.

Here's my personal view:

I think the universe is infinite in all dimensions, complexity, and time. The usual sense of infinity refers to the extent of space and time from our size on and from our moment on. But I'm referring to all directions. I mean, the universe is also infinite in smallness. The particles that we see are just the external look of an infinite universe, as infinitely complex as ours but approaches to an ultimate end. All electrons are just such universes that share similar fate. They look the same, but only the characteristics observable are very close only by probability. All constants of the universe are just approximations created by statistical contributions of infinite numbers of processes. In other words, we're floating at the edge of infinity ourselves. Our universe may possibly be just one particle in a larger universe that is contributed by our peer universes that are isolated from ours. Even if those peer universes have different details, their ultimate fate on their event horizon will have similar characteristics to our universe. We may ask questions like, what about speed of light and how any sort of interaction can happen in such a larger universe. Well, perhaps in such a larger universe, even the light itself is not what we now call light. Light is just an information carrier. So perhaps, in this next level of universe the light is also an emergent phenomenon. Probably a wave of something that is flowing from one universe to another. In this larger universe the concept of time might be stretched out to eons. One can imagine such physics that runs in time that takes trillions of (our) years, but when compressed, will look like our physics. Just imagine, one universe expanding and colliding with another which creates some sort of a particle collision which explodes gazillions miniature universes into the bulk. Perhaps, there's even life in this higher level universe. Infinity is a playful concept. You can pull out infinities from infinities. So if what I'm suggesting is correct, in any direction you point, you will necessarily find some sort of intelligence developed at some scale smaller or bigger. Perhaps life is a rare phenomenon, but remember the universe 'is infinite'. And infinity means all possibilities is already out there somewhere.

How about our own universe, at our scale? I believe there's abundance of life out there. Even intelligence life could exist. But perhaps, when we think of intelligence, we're just being ignorant and thinking it's the ultimate weapon of survival against anything and once intelligence arises, it has to exist. Perhaps, intelligence as we know it, is not the ultimate answer for survival. Perhaps, all those intelligent civilizations had to perish because of their unstability. Human brain operates at its stability threshold. We're just barely intelligent. We can't even define exactly what intelligence is, and even what life is. Perhaps such civilizations existed in the universe but their life time was like a blink of an eye in the cosmic time. In order to coincide with another civilization that is capable of sending radio waves, you must overlap their existance window. This may be quite small which is why we don't get any message from them. Thinking optimistically, if any of them actually survives, it will probably not be in sync with our age. They will probably be millions of years older than us. Even if they are just a few hundred, or thousand years older than us, they would be so far ahead technologically, we might not be able even recognize them. Imagine life on earth was created by such a civilizaition, without living their trace. They create life without using the sort of machines we know. They use nanomachines, or directly matter itself. Even nanomachiens are not too far from what we can imagine. Just think about what a million year old civilization can come up with. I think it's impossible even to give a guess. One day, if we discover intelligence in the universe, it will highly possibly be so far ahead of us, we will think it's divine or something. Rather than UFOs, we will probably meet intelligent agents that transcend space and time. It's highly likely that whatever we meet, will not be the original species that evolved, but rather a designed being that superceds its creator. Perhaps they will be the design of a designer of designer of designer... Perhaps, they are already in search of why universe is so abundant with life. They could just do billion year experiment to solve the mystery. Create a world that is isolated from the rest of the civilized universe. Isolate them so much that once intelligence arises, if any, they will think they are alone.

Edited by shifter, 22 March 2010 - 05:12 AM.

[Luna]

The result is that the amount of light falling in the earth would double every time the size of the universe is doubled. Therefore, if the universe were infinite, we would not expect the sky to be dark at night. Since the night sky is dark, we know that the universe could not be infinite.

Term Papers

I think that was incorrect and then told that it is due to "space expansion"?

I mean, even if the universe is not infinite, light had quite a while to get from.. 13 billion years away? that's probably pretty bright.

Edited by chrono, 19 October 2010 - 09:13 AM.
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[Omega Point]

Here's a comprehensive discussion on the infinite universe at Perimeter Institute:

http://streamer.peri...9f1/viewer.html

if the universe is infinite, the probability of any data occurring somewhere approaches 1. probability of boltzman brains approaches 1 even though they're extremely rare, probability of us occurring withing a closed box is greater than boltzman brains, number of exact same data (us) occurrences approaches infinity.

according to the infinite universe hypothesis, not only universe is teeming with intelligence, but it's teeming with all kinds of intelligences occurring infinite times.

[Omega Point]

The result is that the amount of light falling in the earth would double every time the size of the universe is doubled. Therefore, if the universe were infinite, we would not expect the sky to be dark at night. Since the night sky is dark, we know that the universe could not be infinite.


Term Papers

I think that was incorrect and then told that it is due to "space expansion"?

I mean, even if the universe is not infinite, light had quite a while to get from.. 13 billion years away? that's probably pretty bright.

You could imagine a universe full of event horizons that allow light to reach only to a limited range. So the universe could still be infinite, but full of isolated local regions which may or may not collide with others sometime int the future. First of all, it would solve the issues around the beginning, the end, and what's beyond the space kind of questions. And it also has power to explain why we are here. In an infinite universe, the possibility of anything happening approaches to 1. So it's almost inevitable that we would be here! And there are certainly others out there even though they are far beyond reach in space and time. It makes even boltzman brains a real possibility, but things like us evolving in time are much more likely.

Edited by Omega Point, 26 September 2010 - 06:54 PM.

[shadowhawk]

Is the universe infinite?

No. It's finite in space, matter, and energy.

If the universe is infinite, why does it not seem to embody the intelligence of a mind with infinite resources (AIXI)? Is it because the speed of light limits data transmission?

Assuming the universe is infinite, and ignoring physical constraints (such as the speed of light) ... if the universe was intelligent, it would be intelligent in one of two ways ...

... one, the universe would be intelligent like a brain. But if so then it will not appear to us intelligence the same way a brain wouldn't seem intelligent if we were living on a neuron.

... two, the universe would be intelligent on a metaphysical level therefore everything happening on our plane of existence is the outcome of the universe 'thinking'.

I think it is finite as to a past but maybe infinite as to the future. Maybe not?

[Omega Point]

I think it is finite as to a past but maybe infinite as to the future. Maybe not?

Actually, you should doubt that. We do not have clue what happened before the big bang. I personally don't believe that it was the beginning. Inflation, cyclic universe and some other theories take this into consideration. Perhaps time is infinite in both directions.

[Omega Point]

Here's the problem with finite universe: As soon as you put a limit to it, the question automatically follows: what's beyond the limit? It causes an infinite regress anyway. So why not just say, it's infinite? I think, we are trying to simplify it in order to understand. But perhaps, just assuming the infinity will make it simpler.

Here's a hypothesis that I've developed by combining two approaches: universe as cellular automaton + lawless universe.

At first it sounds like a contradiction, but wait. There's a way to unify them. Imagine the universe has no laws but just random fluctuations. Actually, there are some simple rules that govern only local interactions. Imagine that just by chance there can be an instantenous occurence of a regular structure in the ocean of chaos which triggers a large enough chain reaction that can covert the chaos into a almost regular crytalic structure. It would be something like the inflation in the beginning. Say only 1000 bits of spacetime are configured in such a way to start this reaction. it's kind of like fluid molecules bumping to each other randomly, and start crystalization when there is a small region with lower energy causing them to get closer. when they get closer, very simple rules apply and it looks like there's a rule for their regularity. the universe could have born like this. A transient temporary cellular automaton (very simple rules), that just popped up into being in the infinite ocean of chaos. if you think about it, given enough trials chaos can give birth to anything.

Here's a way to test this theory at least at a theoritical level:
find a cellular automaton rule that, once started can turn any given random distribution into a regular pattern at any scale. the pattern doesn't have to be absolutely homogenous. it could be sufficiently regular (like quasi crystals).
If you can find such an automaton, it's a hint that such simple rules may indeed exist and could be the cause of 'existence' itself out of pure chaos. we may be just a transient regularity in the vastness of infinite potential.

Edited by Omega Point, 29 September 2010 - 04:20 PM.

[Omega Point]

I'm writing in response to the 3rd video:

Yes you can pull infinities from infinity. but doesn't that also provide a nice source of creation? it has the power to explain why we exist at all. we exist, becuase in the infinite space and time, all things exist!

[shadowhawk]

I'm writing in response to the 3rd video:

Yes you can pull infinities from infinity. but doesn't that also provide a nice source of creation? it has the power to explain why we exist at all. we exist, becuase in the infinite space and time, all things exist!

Very interesting theatrical discussion. I question whether space/time as we experience it, can be infinite. Yesterday does not exist in the same way now does.

[Luna]

I'm writing in response to the 3rd video:

Yes you can pull infinities from infinity. but doesn't that also provide a nice source of creation? it has the power to explain why we exist at all. we exist, becuase in the infinite space and time, all things exist!

Very interesting theatrical discussion. I question whether space/time as we experience it, can be infinite. Yesterday does not exist in the same way now does.

Stop thinking time exists, that will fix the problem.

Actually, even if you do believe in time, it will only add another infinite dimension anyways.

Edited by Luna, 06 October 2010 - 03:43 AM.

[Omega Point]

I'm writing in response to the 3rd video:

Yes you can pull infinities from infinity. but doesn't that also provide a nice source of creation? it has the power to explain why we exist at all. we exist, becuase in the infinite space and time, all things exist!

Very interesting theatrical discussion. I question whether space/time as we experience it, can be infinite. Yesterday does not exist in the same way now does.

The idea of infinite time is not that strange. In fact, the idea of a finite universe and a finite time have started scientifically with the Big-bang theory. But modern theories actually suggest the possibility of a pre-big-bang universe or even other universes. So I tend to assume that time is infinite. I had watched a video of Roger Penrose talking about an interesting cyclic model of universe which resets itself when there are no clocks in the universe that can measure time. It may take almost an infinity until that time, but since there's no one to observe that time, it's not an issue. The universe will reset itself. There are other models too. I think it's almost a logical inevitability. Bu putting an end to time, we are creating the question: what is beyond it? I believe universe's current instantiation has a time-out. But that's pretty far in the future.