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Chat For Sun Nov 10rd 2002


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#1 Bruce Klein

  • Guardian Founder
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Posted 11 November 2002 - 02:54 AM


<BJKlein> Official Chat Begins Now..
<BJKlein> thanks for joining us
<BJKlein> Topic: Qualia... what the hell is it??
<Discarn8> *chuckle*
<Gordon> damned it I know ;-)
<BJKlein> I'll post a definition now.. and open it up to discussion
<BJKlein> http://www.singinst....ml#gloss_qualia
<BJKlein> links of you'd like to see the source.. but i'll post the info..
<BJKlein> qualia:
<BJKlein> The substance of conscious experience.
<BJKlein> "Qualia" is the technical term that describes the redness of red, the mysterious, indescribable, apparently irreducible quality of redness that exists above and beyond a particular frequency of light.
<BJKlein> If a JPEG viewer stores a set of red pixels, pixels with color 0xFF0000, does it see red the way we do?
<BJKlein> No.
<BJKlein> Even if a program simulated all the feature-extraction of the human visual modality, would it actually see red?
<BJKlein> I first "got" the concept of qualia on reading the sentence "You are not the person who speaks your thoughts; you are the person who hears your thoughts."
<Discarn8> In all honesty, I've never seen the relevance of qualia. Perhaps I don't get it, but it is (to me) truism that YOUR perceptions do not match MY perceptions exactly, but rather there is enough overlap that we can communicate meaningfully - as long as we stay in the overlapping region.
<BJKlein> this is Eliezer Yudkowsky talking here...
<BJKlein> Welcome Back PD
<BJKlein> ok we're open for discussion
<Gordon> oh no, BJ has been possessed
<Discarn8> (sorry to jump the gun, Mr Klein)
<BJKlein> not a problem
<PD> What's the discussion about?
<BJKlein> Qualia
<BJKlein> http://www.singinst....ml#gloss_qualia
<PD> Urg
<Gordon> qualia exist, but not as some metaphysical property of systems
<Gordon> nor are there qualia atoms
<PD> I've decided since the last discussion that I'm just going to say qualia don't exist
<BJKlein> if there are not atoms.. how does it exist?
<BJKlein> heh
<Gordon> it's a mental construct
<Discarn8> How do words exist, then,BJ?
<Discarn8> *wry grin*
<PD> Everything is a mental construct
<crw> BJK: i'm just curious how this is relevant to immortality. this topic seems more suited towards an AI chat.
<PD> Some mental construct are not useful
<Discarn8> OK, so it's a tool, a mode of perception - but what is it USEFUL for, Gordon? *confused look*
<PD> Like qualia
<BJKlein> good question crw
<BJKlein> I see the quest for immortality as one and the same as for transhumanism
* crw nods
<PD> That's why when e.g. Sloman says that qualia are just a confused way of talking about real functional states, I say forget it. People who promote the qualia concept wouldn't buy that
<BJKlein> thus we must be prepared to embrace the opportunity
<Gordon> Discarn8: qualia are useful because they allow for an abstraction of reality
<PD> Dennett made that point too in the paper I linked to
<crw> if we're going to live forever we need a way of communicating across boundaries - is that the thinking?
<Gordon> they allow you to make connections between objects
<BJKlein> yes.. good post PD
<Gordon> for examples, you notice that many of the good plants to eat are green
<PD> Gordon, that's exactly how you *shouldn't* think about qualia
<BJKlein> crw: yes
<Discarn8> So are many nasty plants, for that matter.
<Gordon> well, this is a simple example
<crw> so to sum up: qualia will act as the lingua franca for immortals?
<PD> Because when you say "qualia", you immediately have Nagel, Chalmers and the rest of them crying "nonfunctional mental properties, omg!"
<Gordon> let's say all good tasting plants are the color green
<BJKlein> crw: maybe
<Gordon> and nasty plants that you should not eat are red
<BJKlein> we have to see if it's important or real first
<Discarn8> <-- smells an oversimplification, but OK
<observer> the concept of qualia is useful for discussing morality.
<Gordon> if you see a plant that you have never seen before and it's green you know that it is likely okay to eat
<Gordon> you'll have this feeling of "the greeness of this plant is a good thing; I should find more green things if I'm hungry"
<PD> Hmmm... What do qualia have to do with morality?
<PD> Gordon, everything you're talking about is just useful functional information that you have access to and can act on. That's not qualia, that's access consciousness
<PD> Qualia is that magical crap that you experience but don't have access to
<Discarn8> Have to agree w/ PD, but I'd go so far as to call it problem solving.
<Gordon> how do you mean that I don't have access to it?
<PD> You don't have access to it in the sense that it doesn't influence your cognition at all
<observer> for example "pain is bad"
<crw> is there a concrete example of qualia? maybe i'm missing something.
<PD> Hence you have "zombies", things that are behaviorally identical to us, but don't have qualia
<crw> EY's definition says "it describes the indescribable"
<Gordon> PD: you have just defined qualia out of existence
<crw> and that means nothing to me.
<PD> Gordon, exactly'
<PD> Actually, I've just defined qualia out of physicalism and into property dualism
<Discarn8> *BLINK* Something we have no access to, and that we aren't influenced by, but are still mental constructs. Is it me, or is that a self-contradicting definition?
<PD> Physical model of mind + qualia = no good
<BJKlein> crw: I think that is the problem.. there is not concrete example..
<Gordon> well, by defining it that way, as far as I'm concerned, qualia are you misunderstanding your own mind
<PD> Discarn, well everything is a mental construct when we're talking about
<PD> it
<PD> Qualia is a thing that you experience
<crw> BJK: i see. that places this discussion squarely in the realm of philosophy instead of science.
<BJKlein> ok yes..
<PD> crw, quite so
<Discarn8> Indeed, even square root of negative one, but at least that concept (Sqrt(-1)) is USEFUL, in that there are problems it can be applied to.
<Gordon> well, I don't think you have to consider qualia that way
<PD> Gordon, not necessarily, but qualia is a term that property dualists invented, to argue for property dualism
<crw> well then let me ask another question: who uses the concept of qualia and for what purpose do they use it?
<Discarn8> What are the relevant problems qualia can be applied to?
<PD> There aren't any <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...oticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<BJKlein> heh
<Discarn8> PD - you've already admitted you don't like 'em. I can kinda understand why, but - are there others here who disagree w/ PD?
<Gordon> qualia sound like philosophers rationalizing
<PD> A bunch of neuroscientists like to talk about qualia
<Gordon> so, let's coop their term
<Gordon> but use it to mean something else
<PD> Because they think cognitive scientists are oversimplifying
<Gordon> something meaningful
<PD> That would just confuse people <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...oticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<Discarn8> *nod*? Oversimplifing, PD?
<Gordon> think of qualia as a parallel to schema
<PD> I don't really understand it either
<Discarn8> Fair 'nuff. *smile*
<PD> But the gist of it is that cognitive scientists are like architects
<PD> And neuroscientists are like masons
<crw> oooh.
<crw> qualia is the schema of a subjective experience?
<PD> And neuroscientists don't like it that way
<crw> or am i just stringing big words together?
<Discarn8> As in Egyptian Rite/Scottish Rite masons, I assume.
<PD> Yes
<Gordon> crw: something like that
<Discarn8> So, qualia is a way of, if not measuring, at least noticing the non-physical, non-associated mental constructs in human thought.
<PD> The point is that you can say anything you would ever want to say by talking about objects in access consciousness.
<Discarn8> Ick.
<Gordon> qualia are the abstract aspects of objects that don't exist but are perceived because it is adaptive to perceive them
<PD> Once you say "there's something more to it than accessibility", you're talking property dualism
* crw hopes someone is logging this conversation to see how many definitions for qualia we can come up with.
<Discarn8> The "goodness" of clean water, the "healthiness" of a prey animal - that kind of adaption, Gordon?
* BJKlein will post a log...
<BJKlein> to the forum
<Gordon> yes, that kind of thing
<Discarn8> PD - sounds like Gordon's POV is more along the lines of synthesis of aspects and their lack, from this last little bit
<Gordon> actually, qualia likely developed along with language
<Discarn8> That is - Water that doesn't stink, isn't killing fish, has wiggly bits where they should be in the right numbers, etc.
<Discarn8> That's healthy water.
<crw> gordon: i was just getting there!
<crw> good point!
<PD> I'm sure they did
<PD> Because qualia is a weird linguistic confusion that philosophers have invented only a little while ago ^^
<Gordon> it's not impossible to believe that chimps decided good food and bad based only on what frequencies of light it was emitting
<crw> the problem is, if you codify subjective experience into a schema and give that schema to someone else to decode, how can you be sure the experience translates properly?
<crw> that's the same problem that language has.
<crw> i'm still just trying to understand, so let me know how far off the mark i am.
<Discarn8> *chuckle* Same here, crw
<PD> I still say talking about qualia is pointless
<BJKlein> not to get off topic....
<Gordon> PD, in it's original definition, I agree
<PD> crw, every time I see your name, I read "cow" <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...oticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<crw> PD: my initials <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<crw> some see "crew"
<PD> Heh
<BJKlein> but MA wanted to chat a bit about why Singularitarian are considered a little nerdy in some circles
<PD> My user name on the board is Psychodelirium
<PD> Hence PD
<crw> ah, cool. i'm not on the board.
<BJKlein> on the board?
<BJKlein> ahh ok
<PD> <!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I don't think any circles that would know of singularitarianism would think it was nerdy
<BJKlein> you need to join the forum crw
<PD> Although I can sort of see what he's getting it
<PD> Since they're all monastic and crap ^^
<crw> bjk: i need more hours in the day or a faster mind. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<Discarn8> <-- begs the same excuse...
<BJKlein> heh... understand that... at least join to get the newsletter
<Discarn8> *wry grin* Like so often here tonight, someone said it better afore I could type it out
<crw> bjk: good call, i'll do that this evening.
<BJKlein> great thanks..
* BJKlein is topic jumping...
<BJKlein> but.. we also discussed chatting a little about uploading..
<Discarn8> BJK - is there ANY concept beyond 'beer good' which cannot be considered 'nerdy'???
<PD> sex is good too
<BJKlein> yeh... we'd need to define nerd..
<Gordon> I don't know, nerdy might be good
<Discarn8> *nod*
<Guest> hi bj, robert Hedges, Sedona/isopdeath.com
<Discarn8> <-- was looking at it from the dispargement term.
<Guest> stop
<BJKlein> Welcome Robert
<Gordon> I know this one girl that I work with who wears a "Talk Nerdy To Me" t-shirt :-)
<Discarn8> So. What aspect(s) of uploading?
<BJKlein> well..
<BJKlein> it's always fun to see who believes it is possible..
<BJKlein> then we can go from there
<PD> I do I do
<BJKlein> heh
<Discarn8> O, I don't doubt it'll BECOME possible. The timeline? Well, that's a toughie, ain't it? *chuckle*
<BJKlein> do you want to.. like right now?
<Discarn8> (Assuming, of course, no Malthusian solution!)
<Guest> personna on a chip?
<Discarn8> Right now? Heck no. Tech ain't there.
<PD> <!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<BJKlein> ehh... Malthusian or not.. Uploading will be the endgame IMHO
<PD> If the infrastructure was in place, sure
<Discarn8> If we get Malthus' bad vibe before we get uploading, then no, BJ.
<Discarn8> Big "if", PD
<PD> Yeah
<BJKlein> Guest: sorta
<Guest> could you delineate "upload" 4me?
<BJKlein> Uploading: more like transfering your consciousness to a new substrate
<Discarn8> Thumbnail, Guest - Take a human brain. Somehow get a copy of the program it's running, and the a copy of the 'hardware' it's running on, and duplicate them in a machine.
<BJKlein> a more durable substrate
<Discarn8> heh. Don't upload into Windoze, then, BJ! *<!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->*
<BJKlein> heh
<Ziana> windows isn't a substrate ;-)
<Discarn8> Picky, picky. *I* thought it was a funny joke!
<Ziana> it's an old one ;-)
<Guest> my "aking over the internet' is pretty much headed there
<Guest> taking
<crw> it's a Sub-substrate 2000™
<PD> So... Who hates palladium?
<Guest> can I change guest for robert?
<BJKlein> type /nick Robert
<Discarn8> *blink* Not I, PD - makes fusion possible.
<Guest> ?nick Robert
<PD> <!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<BJKlein> type /nick Robert with /
<PD> The windows palladium
<Ziana> palladium as in the secure computing junk ;-)
<Robert> thanks
<BJKlein> np
<Discarn8> Heh. Haven't had to deal with it yet.
<Discarn8> *shrug* I'll worry about it whence I must.
<PD> You will, eventually
<Robert> I don' think I'e ever been in a conscious chatroom, this is neat!
<Robert> I've
<BJKlein> well, you'll have to make is a ritual
* Omni|AFK is back from Running errands
<Robert> thanks bj
<BJKlein> consider it practice for the real thing
<BJKlein> heh <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/wink2.jpg' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink2.jpg'><!--endemo-->
<BJKlein> Welcome Back OmniDo
<Discarn8> BJ - still curious 'bout the uploading Q
<OmniDo> : )
<Robert> intention relevance aerobics?
<BJKlein> now here a man who can tell us a thing or two about uploading
<OmniDo> What is the chat discussion?
<PD> What was the uploading q?
<BJKlein> Qualia or Uploading, take your pick
<Discarn8> UPLOADING
<Discarn8> *<!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->*
<PD> I think we're done with qualia <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
* OmniDo isnt familair with Qualia
<BJKlein> http://www.singinst....ml#gloss_qualia
<Robert> we need to build some psychometric amplifiers
* OmniDo smirks at BJKlein
<OmniDo> Yer starting to act like Michael
<OmniDo> Heh
<OmniDo> pasting links and all
<OmniDo> : Þ
<BJKlein> <!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<BJKlein> ohh no not like MA.. he's going to read the logs and love this
<OmniDo> Hrmmm...
<PD> Where is he, by the way?
<OmniDo> "The substance of conscious experience..."
<Discarn8> *smile* Uploading - what's the next step? What's the next big breakthru needed?
* BJKlein does not know where hence MA is now
<Robert> Hey BJ, have ya tried typing physical immortality as an address in msn browser window yet?
<BJKlein> no
<crw> brb, afk
<OmniDo> Mostly subjective, and relative, dependant upon initial conditions, genetic design, and various degrees of perception and interpretation.
<Robert> guess who made it to #1
<BJKlein> how many sites do yo have robert?
<BJKlein> you?
<Robert> 150
<BJKlein> heh
<Robert> with a few "ite removed
<Robert> site
<BJKlein> do you have a page with all the links?
<OmniDo> Qualia seems interesting, but Im sure many would rather discuss uploading.
<Robert> they deleted a physical immortality.1hwy i think
<PD> We're done with qualia *growl*
<OmniDo> Heh
<Robert> istopdeath.com
<Discarn8> OmniDo - we tried, but without someone familiar w/ the concept to feed the details in where needed, it seems basically like keyboard masturbation
<OmniDo> ame sips away at his Egg Nog
<BJKlein> yepper.. uploading is probably a little more interesting
<OmniDo> <{(Discarn8)}> hehe
<PD> I'm familiar with the concept
<OmniDo> I too, am quite familiar
<PD> What you really need is a property dualist for me to go at it with
<Discarn8> *smile* Sorry, PD.
<OmniDo> Ive been considering the thought of uploading since 7th grade
<PD> I think he meant qualia <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<Discarn8> <-- DID mean qualia.
* OmniDo is familiar with qualia too
<OmniDo> Heh
<Discarn8> Uploading? Heh. Ever since I came across the concept in Cyberpunk 2020...
* mjr waits for the inevitable "is an upload the same person as the original" flamefest to start
<OmniDo> Thats already been answered
<OmniDo> Heh
<PD> Of course it is!
<Robert> BJ, I sent Intel some thoughts on Psychometic Influence on their chips to begin dialogue energetically with the silicon mind approach
<BJKlein> really.. interesting
<BJKlein> any reply?
<OmniDo> The major fear comes from the thought of the resulting "uploaded person" being a copy or duplicate, as opposed to an actual transfered consciousness.
<Robert> of course they never answered
<Discarn8> I like the thread on this in Extropy.org's mailing list. Of course it is - until the subjective experience diverges
<Ziana> the important question is 'does it matter' ;-)
<OmniDo> <{(Ziana)}> It most certainly does
<mjr> Ziana, thank you
<BJKlein> You go Ziana!!
<Discarn8> Ziana - wait until the lawyers get their heads on the problem . . ..
<Robert> imagine dtrying to devine or define the difference
<Discarn8> *sour griN*
<OmniDo> Id not want a copy of me being me, while I the original was destroyed.
<OmniDo> Most people agree on that.
<PD> Well
<PD> I would say there is no difference between you and a functional copy of you
<Ziana> <!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<Discarn8> Some, anyways, Omni. What if you're fleeing terminal non-operative cancer?
<Robert> we'l have chips in our shoes and souls in our chips, strange reality
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> In functionality no, there isnt. In fundamentality, there is
<BJKlein> <!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Robert
<PD> But I would say only the functionality matters <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<Robert> quite a feat
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> Then you defeat the purpose of the "Upload"
<Discarn8> Talk about bad puns. *grin* & *polite applause*
<PD> Not really
<PD> I don't need a Moravec style upload
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> ok let me pose a scenario for you
<PD> Go ahead
<Robert> I wish to consider something like a soul cleansing before upload
<OmniDo> Lets say you are old, and dying, and ready to be "uploaded" to a new better, artifical body, or perhaps just a new biological one, lets assume the former for this example.
<Robert> Dissme
<PD> ok
<Discarn8> Robert - show me a soul, and the appropriate reagents, and we'll have a go at i.t
<BJKlein> Robert... just curious.. what got you interested in living forever.. have you always thought this way. or has it been a progressiong?
<OmniDo> Then your brain is "Scanned" and "You" is uploaded. Then the uploaded you wakes up and looks at the real you. Which is you? And more importantly, which will survive while the other dies?
<PD> They are both me.
<OmniDo> Nope.
<PD> Yep.
<OmniDo> Only one is the original
<OmniDo> The other is a duplicate
<PD> There is no original. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<OmniDo> Yes there is
<OmniDo> You are the original
<Robert> My prejudice,now,centers on intention relevance aplifier/purifier for evolutionary efficiency
<OmniDo> The upload is a duplicate
<PD> Both are me, and neither is the original. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<Robert> amps
* OmniDo sighs
<OmniDo> next question?
<OmniDo> <!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
* mjr gets the popcorn
<PD> The problem is that we subscribe to different theories of identity.
<Discarn8> PD - are you saying that the original is lost every time a new experience is registered?
<Ziana> this stuff goes round and round indefinitely ;-)
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> Not really, for there is only one you, even if that "you" is transient.
<PD> No, I'm saying that the original is lost every time a functional copy of the original is made.
<BJKlein> sorta like a copy ehh Ziana
<Robert> differential mis-interpretation dynamics, yeah
<Discarn8> *blink* OK, beyond my depth, PD. *<!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->*
<PD> See me reply to AG's post on the original forum.
<PD> *my
<BJKlein> but not really.. I believe we just need to augment our brains to understand this stuff
<PD> Let me find a link
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> I doubt that art retailers will agree with you, heh
<Discarn8> OmniDo - here's a question for you re:uploading - what do you see as the next fundamental requirement needed to develop real uploading?
<Robert> psychical viscosity sucks
<Robert> hi have a goa at it
<PD> How do you paste again?
<Discarn8> Control-V?
<PD> http://www.bjklein.c...mp;TOPIC_ID=517
<BJKlein> PD must have finally gotten mIRC
<PD> No
<PD> <!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<OmniDo> <{(Discarn8)}> That is rather simple, actually. Invasive nanotechnology that creates an established medium for which a dynamic biological consciousness can be actively "Transferred" from one source location to another. Namely, the biological function transferred to the artificial function, while maintaining all the circumstantial elements required to determine the "real" consciousness.
<OmniDo> In this manner, there is no "Duplicate" made.
<Robert> BJ, I want to share a growing perspective that I have extracted lately about the possibility that our inhtention doesn' belong to us, just at us
<Discarn8> OK - effectively, a invasive nano sensor net?
<BJKlein> intention?
<OmniDo> <{(Discarn8)}> Sort of, yes.
<Discarn8> *wry grin* how not sort of?
<Robert> some unlying cause force waits for our collective "urrender
<Robert> "ausal
<PD> *confusion*
<Robert> causal
<mjr> where did the good ol' freeze/slice/scan method go? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<Robert> borg with love
<Discarn8> mjr - squished into the trash can...
<OmniDo> <{(Discarn8)}> I try to think of it as a nano-cerebrem, artificially grown within the human mind, since its already been proven mathematically that the equivalent of human mental capacity can fit algorithmically within 1 cubic centimeter of volumetric space.
<Discarn8> Freezing can (and does) change chemical states.
<Discarn8> Not to mention slicing!
<Robert> humanity die-sex itself
<PD> Eh
<Robert> dye-sects?
<Discarn8> Omnido - Has anyone been able to generate nano w/ thousands of links to other nano?
<PD> disects?
<Discarn8> IE - synpatic links?
<mjr> well, many people assume that cryonics can preserve enough of the brain state anyway...
<PD> Not yet.
<PD> Of course
<Robert> virtuebios anyone
<Robert> people are cold enough already
-irc.lucifer.com:@#immortal- BJKlein invited LogLady into channel #immortal.
<Discarn8> mjr - *smile* I Hope so, but I kinda doubt it.
<OmniDo> <{(Discarn8)}> so the mind is essentially duplicated neuron by neuron, but not all at once. This allows for a "transfer" of the active parts of a human mind into a different medium, whilst simutainously integrating that artificial medium to function with its original biological medium, until all functions are replaced entirely and there are no surviving biological neurons left alive.
<Discarn8> Ahhh....
<Discarn8> So, instead of taking it all in one swell foop, you slowly change substrates.
<OmniDo> Its based upon the Quantum Consciousness theory
<OmniDo> Yeah
<PD> it is?
<Ziana> no, no, just voice
<Discarn8> How about synaptic leakage, is that covered in the model OmniDo?
<Discarn8> Err, sorry - neuronal linkage
<Ziana> ty omnido... shame we've missed all the auto-logging thus far
<PD> I don't think consciousness has anything to do with quantum physics, but I always *did* think that quantum consciousness was an argument *against* uploading.
<Robert> would it not be useful to know the "origin "and "destination"of intent?
<OmniDo> vSince the mind is constant change, in the form of electro-chemical interaction, then to duplicate it all at once, essentially makes a "memory state" condition that "was" existing, and ends up destroying the active transient nature of human consciousness.
<Robert> universal clarity/ethic?
<mjr> Discarn8, well, I wouldn't be the first f/s/s-upload myself <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/wink2.jpg' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink2.jpg'><!--endemo-->
<BJKlein> Welcome Back yed
<mjr> but if it was found to work, I'd have no philosophical problem with that
<yed> ty BJ
<Discarn8> OmniDo - Good point, but I'd worry you might be missing bits. Kinda hard to switch back - sorta a one-way trip, h'mm?
<PD> OmniDo, what if you freeze the mind first?
<Discarn8> mjr - Nor I, but I'd worry about long-term problems.
<OmniDo> But to duplicate parts in transient state, whilst simultainiously integrating those duplicated parts into the original transient state, you maintain the active pattern associated with "Active consciousness" and insure that there is no "Copy" or "seperated duplication" from the original.
<Robert> By the way BJ, my gratitude for all this you have done for us!
<Discarn8> What if they got a pentium rounding error? *wry grin*
<Discarn8> Omnido - what portion(s) of the brain would you replace w/ the nano?
<BJKlein> I think OmniDo has a very good point here.. even if we freeze the mind.. you could never reach absolute zero.. it' impossible
<PD> You don't need to reach absolute zero.
<OmniDo> ok
<OmniDo> too many questions at once
<OmniDo> Heh
* OmniDo answers one at a time
<PD> it's not as though you lose identity every time the physical composition of your nervous system changes.
<Discarn8> *chuckle* Serial wisdom
<PD> Doesn't work like that
<Robert> How much colder can it get than sending children into war?
<BJKlein> Robert: you're very welcome..
<Robert> k
<BJKlein> thanks for joining us
<Discarn8> Robert - Much. You're still going for human goals, even in that horror.
<OmniDo> <{(Discarn8)}> It is a one way trip, that is, unless the process can be detemined and reversed using artificial induced neural growth and connections. Of course, with Nano, this wouldnt be a problem but would require far more time to "Go back" into a biological mind. But as Michael might ask "Why would one want to go back?"
<Robert> I' x airforce nuclear surveilance, I'l get over it, k?
<Robert> I'
<Robert> I'm
<Discarn8> Fubars in the nano construction. Loss of a meat body. Loss of unforseen emotional impacts from biochemical lacks. I dunno...
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> As for freezing, if you suspend the active consciousness and then duplicate it, you still end up with the same problem, as there remains an instantaneous duplicatation, as opposed to a transient one, therefore the "Copy" wakes up, while the "original" dies forever.
<yed> hi utnap! ltns
<Robert> my keyboard and I both suck
<BJKlein> Utnapishtim Welcome Back
<Utnapishtim> Hey yed
<PD> Well, we're never going to agree on that, I think
<CyKeyMan> Greetings all.
<Discarn8> Howdy, CyKeyMan...
<CyKeyMan> Howdy
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> Id have to demonstrate it on paper I think. Words sometimes dont do justice for visualizations heh
<CyKeyMan> oops, now i'm a different CyKeyMan
<PD> I demonstrate it on paper, too
<CyKeyMan> I feel sorta the same
<OmniDo> Heh
<PD> ^^
<CyKeyMan> but many planck units have gone by
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> Well, we cant both be correct, but it is possible we are correct on different points.
<PD> Draw a line
<Utnapishtim> Robert; Are you the guy who wrotw the atheists perspective on middel eastern conflict?
<PD> Possibly
<PD> So draw a line, mark a point on that line, than draw two divergent lines from that point.
<CyKeyMan> identity, life and death, may all be religious concepts
<Utnapishtim> damn that was a horrible typo ridden mess but you know what I mean!
<PD> That's what happens when you create functional copies. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<PD> I would say.
<Discarn8> CyKeyMan - So could taxes. *wry grin* But others would disagree with you on those, too
<CyKeyMan> taxes exist
<CyKeyMan> though they are a bad idea
<Discarn8> Not talking if they're good or bad - they exist.
<OmniDo> The same theory holds true to someone under anesthesia. They dont think or remember anything that happens during the anesthesia, but the person who wakes up rememebrs what happened last. The question is, is that person the original? To prove this to the person who "Wakes up" from the upload is irrellavent. But to the person who was duplicated, and quite possibly near the brink of death, it makes a much larger difference.
<Utnapishtim> cykey: Taxes are part of consensual reality
<CyKeyMan> identity does not exist
<CyKeyMan> it is an illusion
<Discarn8> 1=1 certainly does.
<CyKeyMan> that is math
<CyKeyMan> an abstraction
<Discarn8> Sure, they're different pixel bits, but the concepts they represent ARE the same.
<Utnapishtim> cykey: I agree
<CyKeyMan> yea
<Discarn8> *<!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->* as was mentioned earlier - anything spoken (or typed) of, is an abstraction
<PD> OmniDo, but from a pragmatic perspective, you can never prove that some fragment theory of identity isn't true, and you don't lose identity every time you go to sleep
<PD> That's why all this strikes me as pointless
<CyKeyMan> To defeat death, you have to realize you're not really alive.
<CyKeyMan> You can't die
<OmniDo> If I am being "uploaded" and Im on my death bed, and the "Uploaded" me wakes up, I would be downright furious that it wasnt the active conscious "Me" who woke up. KNowing that it was just a copy and that I was going to cease entirely would make me madder than hell.
<PD> One of the reasons anyway
<Discarn8> CyKey - Let's just agree to disagree. *smile*
<Utnapishtim> Identity is inevitably defined by its "seperateness and distinctiveness from the "other" a fnudamentally arbitrary and artificial distinction
<CyKeyMan> every day you wake up and don't know if you were uploaded and re-bodied
<CyKeyMan> while you slept
<OmniDo> <{(CyKeyMan)}> Of course, we make that "Assumption" but the validity of the assertion would still stand.
<CyKeyMan> you went through a bunch of changes, you didn't ask for
<PD> Utnapishtim, you don't frequent that Grendel forum by any chance, do you?
<Discarn8> Utnapishtim - Solopsism?
<CyKeyMan> like weird dreams
<Utnapishtim> PD : No I don't
<Utnapishtim> why?
<PD> Nevermind then
<Utnapishtim> Is there another Utnapishtim?
<Robert> can' we just eat sand and get this overwith
<PD> Yes
<OmniDo> <{(CyKeyMan)}> but I still retain who I was, and I am mostly certain that I am still the same me "Fundamentally, and in transient" that I was when I went to sleep.
<PD> on grendelslair.com/forums
<CyKeyMan> I want to see the universe more extropic, so I will copy myself and merge with others a whole lot
<CyKeyMan> and since we won't worry about losing our identities
<OmniDo> <{(CyKeyMan)}> Good luck, that will be quite...interesting to say the least.
<CyKeyMan> only enhancing extropy
<CyKeyMan> we'll move fast
<Utnapishtim> I think this topic is an intellectual trap
<Robert> does everyone here have the right half of the screen blank
<Discarn8> Qualia, Utnapistim?
<CyKeyMan> Maybe -- and one that almost everyone falls into
<Utnapishtim> I can think of fewer more effective topics for making bright people walk in intellectual circles
<OmniDo> <{(Utnapishtim)}> Not really, just takes alot of abstract conceptual skill to comprehend, and yes, it is a bit on the "Heavy" side, heh
<PD> I don't. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<BJKlein> while I have you guys here.. any suggestions for next weeks topic... I was thinking about talking about the problems of carbs.
<Utnapishtim> Omnido: I can comprehend both views
<OmniDo> <{(Utnapishtim)}> What makes you view it as a "Trap" ?
<CyKeyMan> Cryonics may not catch on, as long as it is about preserving identity
<Utnapishtim> But I thinbk that they are fundamentally irreconcilable since one deals with the abstract and the other with the subjective perspective
<CyKeyMan> If you can't prove identity survives sleep, how will even the most successful cryonics be able to prove it conserved identity?
<Utnapishtim> cykeyman: Why do you think that>
<Robert> google search, after this session, "taking over the internet" brag brag
<OmniDo> <{(CyKeyMan)}> But I like identity, even though it is an illusion in transient, its still appealing for now, heh
<Utnapishtim> This is how I feel
<PD> CyKeyMan, if you go to sleep, why not get frozen?
<PD> By your logic anyway
<CyKeyMan> i plan on it
<CyKeyMan> if needed
<Utnapishtim> Who was the first Cryonics pateient. I forget his name
* OmniDo plans to get frozen if he doesnt live to see the tech evolve.
<CyKeyMan> James Bedford
<Robert> i den tity, caveman lactations
<CyKeyMan> <!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<Utnapishtim> I believe Bedford argued that although personal identity was an illusion, it was an illusion he passionately wanted to preserve
* OmniDo snacks on cottage cheese, but is it really cheese? It might be dirt to someone else...
<CyKeyMan> not really, it was lqtm (laughing quietly to myself)
<Discarn8> id entity. Recognizing signs of self
<PD> And I agree that that identity is a "trap". It's one of those problems that philosophy creates for itself by indulging pointless metaphysical speculation. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<CyKeyMan> cottage cheese doesn't need a soul to survive
<Robert> identity=myopia
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> Im not referring to metaphysics at all.
<Robert> goog one PD
<Utnapishtim> PD: Yup!
<Robert> good
<PD> Sure you are.
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> Explain?
<Utnapishtim> Maybe the problenm is lingusitic rather than metaphysical
<PD> You wouldn't agree anyway. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<CyKeyMan> btw, i'm typing with one hand with the CyKey chord keyboard
<PD> If you don't thikn it is.
<OmniDo> <{(Utnapishtim)}> semantical confusion? heh I highly agree that is a large part of it.
<Utnapishtim> it has to do with the artificuality of our abstract concepts and the terms we use to define the world around us
<CyKeyMan> great for wearable computers
<BJKlein> you know.. we haven't talked about free will/determinism lately... would this be a good chat topic for next week?
<OmniDo> <{(BJKlein)}> another illusion
<OmniDo> Heh
<Utnapishtim> BJ: I don't think so
<Robert> sin naps
<Discarn8> Oldie but a goodie. If you stock up on fire extinguishers
<OmniDo> <{(BJKlein)}> But sure, if you like.
<CyKeyMan> i have to say . . . maybe
<PD> But any question purporting to deal with the ultimate reality beyond the theories and the language is metaphysics.
<Utnapishtim> The same points of view coem up AGAIN and again
<BJKlein> heh
<BJKlein> any other suggestions/
<CyKeyMan> bye
<BJKlein> Ok..Take Care crw
<CyKeyMan> Action plans
<BJKlein> sorry CyKeyMan
<CyKeyMan> sorry about whats?
<CyKeyMan> what?
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> I dont refer to anything in context that is beyond theory or language.
<BJKlein> typing crw instead of CyKeyMan
<CyKeyMan> oh
<BJKlein> are you leaving us?
<PD> In context, you can't. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> By definition
<CyKeyMan> not i
<Robert> I' in this chat because of sodium pentathol 1972
<CyKeyMan> at the moment
<PD> But nevermind.
<BJKlein> ohh ok
<OmniDo> <{(Robert)}> <!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<Robert> tweek
<PD> All I'm really saying is that it doesn't particularly matter to me which "solution" to the identity puzzle is correct. I don't think it's a useful puzzle to think about.
<OmniDo> Im in this chat because my computer gaming distractions havent yet set in.
<OmniDo> ; )
<Discarn8> BJ - Tech forecast, perhaps? Where we'll be at (x) date?
<PD> <!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<CyKeyMan> who wants to swap memories of the year 2001, straight even trade?
<PD> OmniDo, I'm about to go play Warcraft III
<Utnapishtim> Discarn: That is a topic I like
<BJKlein> Discarn8: good good
<Discarn8> CyKey - no thanks.
<OmniDo> Im a D2 player myself
<CyKeyMan> my 1 handed typing tech is great for game chat
<PD> D2 gets awfully boring awfully quick, I think
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> I only play online
<PD> Me too
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> First player gets old fast
<PD> I always thought the original was better by the way <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> ya whats up with that? They didnt include the resurrection scrolls? Uber lame
<PD> Heh
<BJKlein> CyKeyMan.. have you joined us before? good to have ya otherwise
<Robert> identity maybe is ego where intentin/clarity is "awake"
<Discarn8> BJK - what year you looking at?
<CyKeyMan> yup
<CyKeyMan> alaskan dude
<Robert> intent
<PD> OmniDo, you play hardcore?
<CyKeyMan> not john grigg
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> Only
<BJKlein> probably no futher than 2020
<PD> Ever duel? ^^
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> with some open realm on occasion.
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> Ya in open realm.
<Discarn8> Excellent. *smile*
<PD> Aww... HC dueling is such a rush
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> It is, but its also such a waste, heh
<PD> Heh
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> you lose everything unless you have loot duel, and even then you lose all yer charms
<OmniDo> Anywayz...
<OmniDo> this isnt a topic to discuss here
<OmniDo> Heh
<Robert> Ok, I have this theory that order has power over chaos and "drives"evolution Of consciousness
<PD> Well, we could always talk about whether games constitute a form of art
<PD> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<OmniDo> <{(Robert)}> I dissagree
<Discarn8> BJK - I take it the formal chat's over? *grin*
<Utnapishtim> Robert: How do you reconcile that with the entropy of the universe
<PD> These chats are never formal
<OmniDo> <{(Robert)}> Unless chaos does not exist
<Robert> u like chaos?
<Discarn8> <-- sits corrected
<Discarn8> *chuckle*
<PD> Utnapishtim, entropy is global, order is local.
<BJKlein> Discarn8: it's a free for all
<CyKeyMan> How about a low budget movie, involving attempts to create a real life "super" hero or team through technology such as wearable/body mounted computers, etc.
<OmniDo> <{(Robert)}> Whether or not I like or dislike it is irrellavent. Until it is proven as not existing, then chaos will always reign over order.
<Robert> Damit Omni u blew my whole theory, thanks
<Utnapishtim> The universe is a closed system no?
<PD> Yes
<PD> The only closed system
<CyKeyMan> possibly by definition
<PD> Without getting into multiverse cosmologies and all that crap
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> Is the universe infinite or finite? If its infinite, then it doesnt matter where it is. If its finite, then where is it?
<CyKeyMan> or simulations
<Robert> well then, how about confusion to clarity ratios
<CyKeyMan> We're not smart enough yet.
<Discarn8> <-- wonders how that ties in w/ basement universes and the like
<Utnapishtim> What I am saying is that all triumph of order is ultimately illusory
<CyKeyMan> Some questions we don't need to answer yet
<PD> What do you mean "where"? Space is a property of the universe.
<BJKlein> the universe better be infinite or we're sol
* OmniDo agrees with Utnapishtim
<Utnapishtim> so to speaki of order "winning out" can be misleading
<CyKeyMan> Let's get much smarter first
<OmniDo> <{(BJKlein)}> we're sol
<Robert> pissamiss tics
<Discarn8> Utnapishtim - what, everything being identical isn't a triumph of order? *grin*
<OmniDo> Heh
<CyKeyMan> Intelligence can be effectively doubled now
<CyKeyMan> with technology and other peoples brains
<BJKlein> thus I WILL the universe to BE infinite and I will immortality on all of us...
<Robert> clever amplifiers, 30% off
<CyKeyMan> in a self reinforcing loop
<Utnapishtim> Discarn.... Good point
<PD> BJKlein has been reading too much Schopenhauer.
* OmniDo notices that this conversation is way out of hand, and topics are emerging every 3 minutes, without logical or semantical conclusions.
<BJKlein> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/wink2.jpg' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink2.jpg'><!--endemo-->
<OmniDo> With that, I bid the group a good night, as I head off to game where there are definate conclusions.
<OmniDo> ; )
<PD> Me too.
<OmniDo> Heh
<BJKlein> we did pretty well with Qualia earlier though....
<Discarn8> G'nite, Omni. Frag more than you're fragged.
<PD> You need to buy war3, omni <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<Robert> opinion are very habit forming, vote if it helps
<OmniDo> Heh
<CyKeyMan> Conclusions among non-contractually obligated smart people who haven't been screened for psychopathy? You gotta be kiddin'!
<Discarn8> BJ - I disagree. It was VERY one sided.
<Utnapishtim> Omnido: Goodnight Enjoy your artificially induced sense of closeure
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> Buy? Me? I dont pay for software.
<BJKlein> Ok..Take Care OmniDo
<PD> Then you need to steal war3 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<OmniDo> <{(Utnapishtim)}> Its pleasant, while it lasts...
<CyKeyMan> bye
<Utnapishtim> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<CyKeyMan> whoever you were or become
<Robert> i live near a time well
* OmniDo will always be himself
<Robert> well it' about time
<OmniDo> And since my name means "All Paths" then I can very well be anything or everything.
<Discarn8> BJK - the Qualia bit - I STILL don't understand it, and was hopin' for an insite into why it was causing such a furor.
<PD> Until you're someone else.
<CyKeyMan> Now if we could get some contractually obligated non-psychopathic extropians together . . .
<CyKeyMan> we could get stuff done
<BJKlein> Discarn8: you're not alone..
<CyKeyMan> uh oh, you'll die!
<CyKeyMan> bye
<Discarn8> BJK - that's what I figgered out. *<!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->*
<PD> non-psychopathic extropians? Ugh... What fantasy world do *you* live in?
<Robert> fear of truth dictates and drives evolving distractions
<Utnapishtim> Cykey: What sort of steps would you like to see us taking?
<crw> i'd consider myself an extropian.
<Utnapishtim> assuming we meet your definition on non-psychopathic
<Discarn8> Robert - No, more like adrenal addiction and the like
* OmniDo considers himself as an OmniDo
<CyKeyMan> there are tests for psychopathy
<Robert> disc <!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<Discarn8> :is himself, no more, and no less. Yet, Discarn8 changes over time...
*OmniDo* gotta make a few laughs, heh
<Utnapishtim> Discarn: Saying that you are yourself says nothing
<Robert> sin say shun
* crw doesn't state the obvious that's he's himself.
<CyKeyMan> Our ideas will not be mainstream through a direct route.
<PD> Psychopathy is sociopathy
<Utnapishtim> Cykey: I entirely agree
<Discarn8> Utnapishtim - No, it says something, but you must understand the definitions applied before it has meaning. *wry grin*
<Utnapishtim> I think life extension needs to be emphasised
<PD> And the only test for it is utter failure to conform to social norms <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...icons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<CyKeyMan> I imagine something like a MMORPG, in which extropians may even, seemingly be the bad guys . . .
<Robert> the sedona metaphysical rhetoric is numbing
<Utnapishtim> with a focus on maintaining youthfulness and sexual vitality
<CyKeyMan> but as you advance in the game, the ideas start looking less evil
<OmniDo> me's rhetoric is mumbling
<Utnapishtim> the mainstream appeal of those goals are affirmed in every womens cosmetics counter in the world
<Discarn8> Utnapishtim - that's gonna be a big selling point, true - until people realize the birth rate problems.
<PD> Someone needs to make a transhumanist movie.
<OmniDo> <{(PD)}> they can never agree on the concept.
<OmniDo> Heh
<CyKeyMan> I got the plan for the movie
<Robert> penetration does seem to add motivation to remain embodied
<PD> Heh
<PD> Have you ever seen Waking Life?
<Utnapishtim> Discarn: People are too selfish to care
<CyKeyMan> great flick!
<Utnapishtim> I'm not too worried about that
<PD> Yeah it was nice.
<Robert> PD i agree and soon I' 61
<CyKeyMan> Linklater can do low budget too!
<Discarn8> Utnapishtim - Very true, but it's a built-in slam handle for those who'll oppose it, in terms that everyone can understand.
<PD> There was one scene where the sleeping guy was talking to someone who pretty much laid the singularity.
<Robert> No and I wrk in a video store
<Discarn8> Utnapishtim - Such as you favorite fundie politician, or luddite preacher, or...
<BJKlein> anyone know anything about this movie: http://www.imminst.o...m...mp;t=354&s=
<Utnapishtim> People will not lie down and die because of a rational argument
<PD> No <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...oticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<CyKeyMan> Another extropian movie, that hardly anyone has heard of, is "Galaxies are Colliding"
<PD> Waking Life was cool though
<CyKeyMan> Any of you seen that?
<Discarn8> BJK - Fraid not
<Robert> seed of destiny: time is leaking
<Utnapishtim> not when they actualyl have an alternative in sight
<Robert> frayed knot
<Discarn8> Utnapishtim - No, but they WILL fight when they're stroked by the media moguls.
<PD> And there's a movie called "Derrida" coming out, though it's not exactly transhumanist
<Utnapishtim> Anyway I think emphasising immortality is a mistake
<Robert> transuseless
<Utnapishtim> not so much in our mutual discussions
<CyKeyMan> Bubble Boy was quite transhuman, to me
<




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