• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
- - - - -

Science Picnic in Warsaw, Poland - June 12th, 2010


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
26 replies to this topic

#1 Agent

  • Life Member
  • 106 posts
  • 237
  • Location:blank

Posted 29 December 2009 - 06:00 PM


The largest outdoor science-popularization event in Europe: the 14. Science Picnic:
  • More than 100,000 visitors a day
  • 250 institutions from all over the world
  • Free participation
Would the ImmInst like to take this opportunity to popularize its goal and participate?

Details from the organizer's website http://www.pikniknau...pl/standard/en/ (<-- there is also a video):

The "Science Picnic of Polish Radio and the Copernicus Science Centre" is Europe's largest outdoor science-popularization event. It has been held every year since 1997 in Warsaw's New Town Square and Podzamcze area, each time drawing crowds of visitors – more than 100,000 in the course of a single day! The Science Picnic was commended by the European Commission in 2005 as one of 10 model European projects in the "Science and Society" field. The event has served as the inspiration for many other popular science initiatives, including the Copernicus Science Centre in Warsaw."

"Each year the Science Picnic is participated in by some 250 institutions from Poland and abroad (including from Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, China, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Egypt, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Lithuania, Morocco, Portugal, Russia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Switzerland, the US and UK). Institutions of higher education and scholarship, research institutes, museums and cultural bodies, science-related foundations, and interest groups all present their achievements and reveal behind-the-scenes aspects of their work. They illustrate the very stuff of science in ways accessible to visitors of various ages, using hands-on experiments, demonstrations, and often interactive exhibits. A wide range of research fields are represented at the Picnic, including the hard, natural, and social sciences plus the humanities."

"The participants of the Picnic may include universities, research institutions and institutions popularizing science, which will prepare demonstrations of interactive, popular science, educational or artistic nature. The participation in the Picnic is gratuitous for public educational institutions, research and development units and cultural institutions. The organisers ensure: promotion and advertising of the Science Picnic; technical infrastructure in the form of: a tent, tables, coffee tables, chairs, power supply, etc. The condition to participate in the Picnic is completing and sending back to organizers, by the deadline, “Participation Declaration” and “Registration Form”."

The deadline for submission of registrations is January 15th.
The lat year Formal terms of participation: http://www.polskiera...43011593669.pdf have been slightly changed, the most important:

"1.The Organiser reserves the right to refuse to accept participation in the Scientific Picnic in order to present Shows, in particular when the Organiser decides that:
a. the Shows are not of an interactive nature;
b. the Shows are not of a general scientific, educational or artistic nature;
c. the Shows are dangerous to the public, the Participant, the Organiser (for all of the people present at the Scientific Picnic);
d. the Shows directly promote products or solutions of a particular entity."

In my opinion, at the stand/tent there can be eg. a laptop (or a bigger screen) with the ImmInst film.

Brochures, books, CDs - all has to be gratuitous. Quizzes, games etc. - to be invented.

The Shows can be in English. Both stage shows and talking to the people who would come to the stand/tent. So if non-Polish speaking ImmInst members were to come to Warsaw for the Picnic, it would be perfectly fine for them to speak English.

More ideas are welcome.

The Participation form is in Polish only (I offer my help, of course): http://kopernik.org.pl/pikfor/


I think that at least 3 persons (or more) at the stand are necessary. I can be one of them, but I am new here; so someone more experienced would be more knowledgeable and convincing to people.


Do you think that the appearing at the Scientific Picnic would result in more members, media coverage and perhaps future cooperation?

#2 brokenportal

  • Life Member, Moderator
  • 7,046 posts
  • 589
  • Location:Stevens Point, WI

Posted 29 December 2009 - 06:21 PM

I think this sounds great.

Lets say we accept this, which, I cant imagine we wont, then lets also say that nobody else in the area could go to help you. Could you set up the booth yourself?

Do you have a lap top you could use? Better yet, do you have a larger tv, and dvd player you could bring with?

If this goes through I will pledge to send you at least 2 copies of SCOD in book form. I know its not a lot, but if we all pitch in a little it will all add up. I can also send you some Imminst promotional material, particularily a few Imminst fridge magnets I have left over, and maybe some more stuff.

Youll want to scout for more people in the area to come with to help you. Check out the regional forums maybe. Also, you could probably use things from the imminst.org/store - Like, I would order one of those imminst posters to hang up in the booth, to give it the imminst theme, and whatever else.

Also, like you ellude to, continue to scout for unique interactive ideas, like maybe make that quiz.

#3 Agent

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member
  • 106 posts
  • 237
  • Location:blank

Posted 29 December 2009 - 08:04 PM

I am glad that you accepted.

It is simply not possible to operate the stand alone: controlling the quiz/game, replying to people's questions, giving the brochures, 9 AM - 9 PM.
I already posted a topic in Polish in the Regional Forums asking for help.

I do not have a laptop nor a larger TV/DVD set to use at the Picnic.

Apart from the banner, the most needed items would be promotional materials (brochures & CDs).
I know how fast people would take away items like e.g. pens, so such items they can get only by winning a competition. So quizzes/games are a must not only because the organizers require them.

But firstly there have to be more people to manage the stand.

#4 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 18,997 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 10 January 2010 - 08:19 PM

Just wondering what the registration fee is.

#5 kismet

  • Guest
  • 2,984 posts
  • 424
  • Location:Austria, Vienna

Posted 10 January 2010 - 09:54 PM

Apparently it is free, assuming your booth does fit in. I may be able to travel to Poland for the picnic, but it's not very likely & depending on university and other responsibilities...

IIRC there should be a Polish life extension community, so it can't be impossible to find someone to help you out. If cancelling ain't much of an issue we could provisionally register and then look for volunteers..?

#6 Agent

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member
  • 106 posts
  • 237
  • Location:blank

Posted 14 January 2010 - 04:34 AM

It is free of charge, both participation (institutions) and entrance (visitors).

This is the place where the Science Picnic will be (the article is in Polish, but at least there are some photos):
http://pl.wikipedia....dza_w_Warszawie

As you have probably read, David Styles offered his help in his campaign topic: http://www.imminst.o...les-t37108.html
Some other people may also come to Warsaw for this event so the whole thing starts to seem doable.

IIRC there should be a Polish life extension community

If you know one, please post its name or URL.


Submitting the forms is critical for now: The Declaration apparently has to be sent by snail mail with ImmInst "Signature and personal seal of institution's head", which I understand is Mind.

Since the Picnic organizers put the forms in English on the website only a few days ago (January 11th), so I hope that they will accept another few days of delay.

At least the first (on-line) form should be sent in time, though. http://www.kopernik.org.pl/pikfor/en/

All the papers are on the following website: http://www.pikniknau...ykul103933.html
There is also an example.pdf regarding how to fill the questionnaire.


The deadline is January 15th and in Poland the midnight 15/16 will be 5 to 8 hours sooner than in the US (depending on your timezone).

If something is not clear or you need more info from the organizers that I need to ask by phone, please post here or PM me.

#7 Shepard

  • Member, Director, Moderator
  • 6,360 posts
  • 932
  • Location:Auburn, AL

Posted 22 January 2010 - 07:01 PM

I suppose we missed the deadline on this, then?

#8 drmz

  • Guest
  • 574 posts
  • 10
  • Location:netherlands

Posted 22 January 2010 - 07:08 PM

Maybe worth he 12 hour drive. Think i'm going to visit this.

#9 brokenportal

  • Life Member, Moderator
  • 7,046 posts
  • 589
  • Location:Stevens Point, WI

Posted 22 January 2010 - 07:36 PM

I suppose we missed the deadline on this, then?


I beleive Mind sent it in but Im not sure where we go to get a confirmation of if they accepted it. I was chatting with Styles, who is going there, and he is looking into possibly bringing some kind of cryonics equipment from one of the places he works with and is wondering if we could help cover some transportation costs for the equipment. Im not sure what those numbers are looking like yet though. I guess I would say we should consider $100 for sure if they need it, but maybe its way more than that.

I forget what his other ideas were. We'll see if we can get him in on this topic here.

Heres some more things they could do:

-One thing Im hoping we can send is a couple of copies of scod and ending aging. Lets say, 5 of each? They could work with them from there. Maybe sell them, give them away, raffle, or free drawing. They could also take book donations from now until the fair.

-An imminst poster or two from imminst.org/store to dress the booth a bit.

-A paper for people to list their emails so we can send them an email prodding them to register.

-Caliban suggests maybe one of those calculators that calculates your life span.

#10 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 18,997 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 22 January 2010 - 10:08 PM

We applied in time. David Styles sent an email, but the science picnic responded that I needed to mail a hard copy of the registration form. So that is now in the mail. As far as I know, we are registered for the picnic and David Styles will help represent Imminst.

#11 Agent

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member
  • 106 posts
  • 237
  • Location:blank

Posted 22 January 2010 - 10:10 PM

I suppose we missed the deadline on this, then?

Thanks to David Styles' involvement, both forms have been sent in time.
He filled in the on-line form and sent it. The other one was signed and sent by Mind.

Items for the Picnic:
A huge banner with ImmInst logo will be necessary, and maybe a few smaller ones.
Books, paper for emails, calculators, fridge magnets, ... - every gadget we can get and use/give at the fair, is welcome.

What visitors expect most are informative brochures - so we have to compose and print a brochure in Polish (or translate from English, if there is one in English) with an info about what the ImmInst is doing.

Brochures from other immortality/life extension/cryonics organizations are also welcome/needed.
If most are in English, it is understandable; although I want at least a few translated - which I will do, only I need your permission to do so, and to use your graphics (if there are any in the original brochures) in the Polish version.

All has to be for free for the visitors.


Fashionable promotional items can be bags with the ImmInst logo, full name and URL (like http://cafepress.com/imminst.4983254 only with full name).
People in Poland are already convinced to use these ecological bags, so we only need to give them the message we want on their sides.

How many looks may a bag get a day?
Hundreds if not thousands.

1000 immortalist bags being carried through the almost 2 million city may make a change.
And the summer is near and people will go for vacations in all directions - with the Immortality Institute bags.

Although here in Poland the rates of making such bags are +- 1/10 of the cost from cafepress, I personally will not pay for all the 1000. Maybe 100 or 200 bags. If you hate missed opportunities for promotion, you are welcome to pay for more bags :)

#12 David Styles

  • Life Member
  • 512 posts
  • 295
  • Location:UK

Posted 22 January 2010 - 11:52 PM

I suppose we missed the deadline on this, then?

Thanks to David Styles' involvement, both forms have been sent in time.
He filled in the on-line form and sent it. The other one was signed and sent by Mind.

Items for the Picnic:
A huge banner with ImmInst logo will be necessary, and maybe a few smaller ones.
Books, paper for emails, calculators, fridge magnets, ... - every gadget we can get and use/give at the fair, is welcome.

What visitors expect most are informative brochures - so we have to compose and print a brochure in Polish (or translate from English, if there is one in English) with an info about what the ImmInst is doing.

Brochures from other immortality/life extension/cryonics organizations are also welcome/needed.
If most are in English, it is understandable; although I want at least a few translated - which I will do, only I need your permission to do so, and to use your graphics (if there are any in the original brochures) in the Polish version.

All has to be for free for the visitors.


Fashionable promotional items can be bags with the ImmInst logo, full name and URL (like http://cafepress.com/imminst.4983254 only with full name).
People in Poland are already convinced to use these ecological bags, so we only need to give them the message we want on their sides.

How many looks may a bag get a day?
Hundreds if not thousands.

1000 immortalist bags being carried through the almost 2 million city may make a change.
And the summer is near and people will go for vacations in all directions - with the Immortality Institute bags.

Although here in Poland the rates of making such bags are +- 1/10 of the cost from cafepress, I personally will not pay for all the 1000. Maybe 100 or 200 bags. If you hate missed opportunities for promotion, you are welcome to pay for more bags :)


These are all excellent ideas. I salute your creativity.

My main creative contribution to this is that it would be great, if possible, to get cryonics equipment up and running. It's just a matter of which bits of kit we can conveniently borrow, which I need to clear with the rest of the committee of my organisation.

My preference is for whatever attracts the most attention, be it eye-catching, noisy, whatever.

We also need to get interactive with people. Assuming we can borrow the cryo equipment, we can let people get our bits and pieces up and running (under remarkably careful supervision and with everything as idiotproofed as possible).

If you can sweet-talk some LN2 from the local university, that'd be wonderful as we can pour it on visitors, which always causes a stir.

(for any who are unaware, LN2 is perfectly safe to pour (in small volumes) onto bare skin such as a hand so long as there is nothing that could freeze onto it, like metal ring on the hand, etc (which would freeze and cause terrible pain and damage), as without such things there, the LN2 will boil off harmlessly when exposed to the warmth emanating from the hand.)

#13 brokenportal

  • Life Member, Moderator
  • 7,046 posts
  • 589
  • Location:Stevens Point, WI

Posted 23 January 2010 - 07:33 PM

Heres the things Ive seen proposed to bring so far:


banners
bags
brochures
cryonics equipment
LN2
Lifespan calculator
books: scod, ending aging, any others, especially related ones that are donated.
Imminst sign up sheet

I would go with Imminst posters from imminst.org/store for banners. If you want bags, or anything else, can you guys plot out what you want, with prices here? Im not sure how much or how little we'll be able to agree on here, and or how many sponsors we may be able to find. Of course, the lower the better, but higher pricing isnt out of the question.

Also, let me know what you might want items from the store to say differently and Ill get that made. For example if bags are on your final list then let me know what wording you think would be best for the bag.

As for the brochures, you could propose pricing on printing up the pamphlet, a pamphlet from here: http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=35975 Ill go and take the feedback that it has gotten and see if we cant get an workable version approved this week.

#14 Shepard

  • Member, Director, Moderator
  • 6,360 posts
  • 932
  • Location:Auburn, AL

Posted 29 January 2010 - 09:44 PM

David and Agent, thanks for taking this on. Moving to Projects.

#15 David Styles

  • Life Member
  • 512 posts
  • 295
  • Location:UK

Posted 23 February 2010 - 05:14 PM

Below is a copy of the rejection notice from the event organisers.

Their narrow-mindedness is a pity. One would have thought that being different from the other science and engineering representations would be beneficial, and add value to the event. Ah well, I'm reminded of a quotation saying that "Traditional academia is to modern scientific advancement as the Roman Catholic Church was to the Renaissance".

Agent, to you think that an appeal against this decision would have any chance of success?


-----------------------Letter to David Styles--------------------


Mr. David Styles
The Immortality Institute
ds@cryonics-uk.com
Re: Your application for participation in the XIV Science Picnic in Warsaw

Dear Mr. Styles,

Thank you very much indeed for your electronic application for participation in the year XIV Science Picnic in Warsaw .
Your application has been forwarded to me for appraisal.
It is my opinion that the subject of your Institute activities and proposed presentation for the Science Picnic are so remote from the other areas of science and engineering we cover that your participation in the Picnic will not contribute to the educational and/or cultural benefits of our visitors and participants.
It is my decision, therefore, that your application will not be accepted.
Thank you once again for your interest in our Picnic

Sincerely

Dr. Łukasz A. Turski
Professor of physics,
Chair of the Program Committee for the XIV Science Picnic
of the Copernicus Science Center and Polish Radio

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==========================================
Prof. dr hab. Łukasz A. Turski
Center for Theoretical Physics,
Polish Academy of Sciences and
Department of Mathematics and Natural Sciences
Cardinal Wyszyński University.
Al. Lotników 32/46, 02-668 Warszawa. Poland
phone: +48 22 8470920; cell.phone: +48 502 563316
laturski@cft.edu.pl; www.cft.edu.pl
==========================================

Edited by David Styles, 23 February 2010 - 06:40 PM.


#16 brokenportal

  • Life Member, Moderator
  • 7,046 posts
  • 589
  • Location:Stevens Point, WI

Posted 23 February 2010 - 08:06 PM

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that this is a perfect glaringly poignant example of our need for a second name. I would bet money that they rejected this 90% because the word Immortality was in there. Immortality works great for catching attention on the internet, in key word search, in print media, etc... Its a great hype word, but when it comes to one on one public relations, nobody wants to say "ya, I see Immortality as a valid pursuit." They might check it out if they see it on a billboard, but I dont think that anybody who doesnt already support this cause would want to associate with the pursuit of immortality at this stage in the development of the meme, in social settings, in any way.

You may as well have told them that we wanted to demonstrate our,

"Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator" marvin_martian2.jpg

It was worth the try though and I think its a great lesson, and is the kind of example we need to make sure we push a second name into existence.

Right now the leading proposals for that name are Longecity.com as it is, and its revised suggestion that is outlined in responses 17, 18, and 19 here: http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=384317 A mid way solution at this point is also to just call us Imminst like the new pamphlet does.

Once we get one of those voted in as an alternative then we can start using names like, "Longecity" and or "Longevity Communities Network" or, "Imminst of Longevity Communities Network" in cases like this science fair application, rather than "Immortality".

#17 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 18,997 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 23 February 2010 - 08:22 PM

Second name would be fine to have, just don't think it would mean a guarantee of acceptance. They might not look favorably on the science of cryonics or life extension in general.

#18 Agent

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member
  • 106 posts
  • 237
  • Location:blank

Posted 23 February 2010 - 09:32 PM

do you think that an appeal against this decision would have any chance of success?

No.

And what is worse, they may be right.

ImmInst is hardly scientific - or it appears not to be so.

Since everything it supports is not the mainstream, these areas must be explained using a scientific language.

  • The website is not clear about what scientific ImmInst does,
  • There is no physical building like scientific institutions used to have (or no photo of it),
  • The ImmInst Wiki is not updated (I would remove it and focus on the website content and possibly on the main Wikipedia);
  • Calendar is empty (and I would remove it completely as it looks like now)
  • There are no info about the scientific advisors on the website - linking the names to the forum does not look serious. No one else has an academic title (Ph.D.), only Brian Wowk?

I think we need to:
  • clean the website and divide it into sections of scientific interests
  • more importantly: ask more _scientists_ to officially become ImmInst advisors - there are many famous names in the ImmInst film and both Open Letters - so? To not offend the current advisors, they may form teams and those with academic titles become official leaders (or a differtent solution, so that it work = look scientific).
  • link the names of advisors to (newly created) pages describing what their teams already did and what are they working on currently
  • decide how much money can ImmInst assign to scholarships, announce it; and if it sponsors any students or research NOW also make it known to general public (I have seen something on it in the forums - NO ONE like prof. Turski would read the forum!!! ever)
  • if there were any scientific experiments in the past, paid for by the ImmInst - please say it aloud on the website
  • e.g. I remember an idea about an experiment on feeding mice with something... it would be a cheap one, right? so e.g. for this, find a scientist who would be responsible for it (have you asked several scientists? or only waited for them to appear on the forum?), and lead the experiment IN the building of ImmInst (aha, we do need one).
  • no link from the website should link to the forum besides one clearly saying FORUM. E.g. from the team pages, on the bottom of the team description (what it is working on, team members, team leader = a scientist, a photo, if a lab research is being conducted - a lab photo; ) , there may be a link saying "Current team discussion on the forum" or something like this. And a chatroom time and link, if the particular team uses the chatroom. In Cryonics and Aging sections, respectively, the Open Letters should be linked.

ImmInst _must_ look like a scientific institution!

If it does not, we will be always treated like a cult, scam, wishful thinking etc.

No VIP and their fame will help if there is no clearly explained, and strongly supported, science behind it.

If about ten links form the main site lead to non-scientific discussions on the forum, by just regular users.
So ImmInst looks like a society of non-scientists who just have some ideas to share on the forum. And even scientists and leadership use nicknames instead of real names.


The Writing Contest should be a scientific one - if we sponsor science fiction, the world looks at us like at science fiction.

E.g. there was an essay on curing aging written for author's biology class - why don't we support such works?
Can we find a scientist willing to read essays like that one and judge them, and sponsor it? Will the ImmInst be able to sponsor one's further education? Eg. one course at university, or a grant for books (or something else)? Something really worth winning the contest prize. And announce the contest not only on this forum, but in schools.

That it costs? Yes, it does.
But on one will say that ImmInst is "remote from the other areas of science and engineering" (prof. Turski).


Conference (thx, Mind): great, and please make sure it is actually an annual one. Means: already start preparing the next one - not only the one this year (which is very important of course).
(And please move the info on the Conference 2008 into the website. No one will look for the info on the forum. http://www.imminst.o.../Current_events still says Convergence08 Planning.)


Scientists _must_ see that ImmInst is serious.


And please, no two names (which scientific institution has two names?...), no other name, the name is OK, it is catching attention, now only some reforms and we grow up to it.
(“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” - Mahatma Gandhi)

Think that 100 years ago scientists were convinced that atoms were only a theoretical metaphor. (source: Michio Kaku, Physics of the Impossible, part III)
Ludwig Boltzman even committed suicide because he was criticized. He didn't know that only one year before Einstein had written and article proving that atoms existed. (source: Michio Kaku, op.cit.)
Atoms survived as atoms, no other name needed.

Do you want a name that no one can recall?... This would be a marketing suicide. ("Immortality Institute stepping down afraid of its name".)


Ahem. In _general_, the website looks very well. Only we need to improve the content. OK? :)
(And it will be so constantly because the world will demand it, so it is a normal situation.)

OK :) More to come ;)

#19 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 18,997 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 23 February 2010 - 09:43 PM

Many good suggestions Agent! We are creating a content management team for this purpose. The site has grown beyond the size where one person can effectively keep track of all the different types of content.

Please present your ideas to the content team (or volunteer for the team) when the time comes. The Board is currently deliberating and will soon vote on a team/committee.

#20 David Styles

  • Life Member
  • 512 posts
  • 295
  • Location:UK

Posted 23 February 2010 - 11:53 PM

  • The website is not clear about what scientific ImmInst does,
  • There is no physical building like scientific institutions used to have (or no photo of it),
  • The ImmInst Wiki is not updated (I would remove it and focus on the website content and possibly on the main Wikipedia);
  • Calendar is empty (and I would remove it completely as it looks like now)
  • There are no info about the scientific advisors on the website - linking the names to the forum does not look serious. No one else has an academic title (Ph.D.), only Brian Wowk?


These are good points. I think a building might be something of a "white elephant", but the other issues should be quite easily remedied..

I think we need to:

  • clean the website and divide it into sections of scientific interests
  • more importantly: ask more _scientists_ to officially become ImmInst advisors - there are many famous names in the ImmInst film and both Open Letters - so? To not offend the current advisors, they may form teams and those with academic titles become official leaders (or a differtent solution, so that it work = look scientific).
  • link the names of advisors to (newly created) pages describing what their teams already did and what are they working on currently
  • decide how much money can ImmInst assign to scholarships, announce it; and if it sponsors any students or research NOW also make it known to general public (I have seen something on it in the forums - NO ONE like prof. Turski would read the forum!!! ever)
  • if there were any scientific experiments in the past, paid for by the ImmInst - please say it aloud on the website
  • e.g. I remember an idea about an experiment on feeding mice with something... it would be a cheap one, right? so e.g. for this, find a scientist who would be responsible for it (have you asked several scientists? or only waited for them to appear on the forum?), and lead the experiment IN the building of ImmInst (aha, we do need one).
  • no link from the website should link to the forum besides one clearly saying FORUM. E.g. from the team pages, on the bottom of the team description (what it is working on, team members, team leader = a scientist, a photo, if a lab research is being conducted - a lab photo; ) , there may be a link saying "Current team discussion on the forum" or something like this. And a chatroom time and link, if the particular team uses the chatroom. In Cryonics and Aging sections, respectively, the Open Letters should be linked.


All good.

Regards to advisors, Ben Best mentioned to me that he was asked some time ago to be an advisor for ImmInst, to which he consented, "and then nothing came of that".

ImmInst _must_ look like a scientific institution!

If it does not, we will be always treated like a cult, scam, wishful thinking etc.

No VIP and their fame will help if there is no clearly explained, and strongly supported, science behind it.

If about ten links form the main site lead to non-scientific discussions on the forum, by just regular users.
So ImmInst looks like a society of non-scientists who just have some ideas to share on the forum. And even scientists and leadership use nicknames instead of real names.


I strongly support (as evidenced by my name here) using one's legal name for such endeavours. I think it would make us look a lot more serious if more scientists and leadership used their legal names too. Some people feel strongly about this the other way, though - thought?

The Writing Contest should be a scientific one - if we sponsor science fiction, the world looks at us like at science fiction.

E.g. there was an essay on curing aging written for author's biology class - why don't we support such works?
Can we find a scientist willing to read essays like that one and judge them, and sponsor it? Will the ImmInst be able to sponsor one's further education? Eg. one course at university, or a grant for books (or something else)? Something really worth winning the contest prize. And announce the contest not only on this forum, but in schools.

That it costs? Yes, it does.
But on one will say that ImmInst is "remote from the other areas of science and engineering" (prof. Turski).


Agreed; that'd be fantastic. Of course ImmInst may need to do some serious extra fundraising to do that.

Which is a chicken-and-egg thing, because to solicit those extra funds, we'd need to point to what marvelous things we've done with money in past.

Conference (thx, Mind): great, and please make sure it is actually an annual one. Means: already start preparing the next one - not only the one this year (which is very important of course).


I think we need to concentrate a little more on this year's first, though planning for ones after so far extend to ideas that have been "good, but not this time" ideas.

(And please move the info on the Conference 2008 into the website. No one will look for the info on the forum. http://www.imminst.o.../Current_events still says Convergence08 Planning.)


Yes, that does look bad until it gets fixed.


Scientists _must_ see that ImmInst is serious.


And please, no two names (which scientific institution has two names?...), no other name, the name is OK, it is catching attention, now only some reforms and we grow up to it.
(“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” - Mahatma Gandhi)

Think that 100 years ago scientists were convinced that atoms were only a theoretical metaphor. (source: Michio Kaku, Physics of the Impossible, part III)
Ludwig Boltzman even committed suicide because he was criticized. He didn't know that only one year before Einstein had written and article proving that atoms existed. (source: Michio Kaku, op.cit.)
Atoms survived as atoms, no other name needed.

Do you want a name that no one can recall?... This would be a marketing suicide. ("Immortality Institute stepping down afraid of its name".)


Agreed.

I for one, for example, was against "The Immortalist" magazine changing its name to "Long Life", for this reason.

Eric's suggestion of simply using "Imminst" in possibly contentious situations might be a good idea.


Ahem. In _general_, the website looks very well. Only we need to improve the content. OK? :)
(And it will be so constantly because the world will demand it, so it is a normal situation.)

OK :) More to come ;)


Right.

And, I look forward to the more to come.

As I'm sure does the rest of everyone to whom you're giving more work :p

#21 brokenportal

  • Life Member, Moderator
  • 7,046 posts
  • 589
  • Location:Stevens Point, WI

Posted 24 February 2010 - 01:08 AM

ImmInst is hardly scientific - or it appears not to be so.


The "Institute" part of our name is also misleading. We are more like a Foundation, growing toward an Institute and a movement. As a non profit foundation, we support and advocate for legitimate scientific organizations like Methuselah, SENS, Alcor, etc... Thats what we would be doing at such a booth. We wouldn't be talking about research we are doing, because we don't have any, we aren't an institute at this time.

Since everything it supports is not the mainstream, these areas must be explained using a scientific language.

  • The website is not clear about what scientific ImmInst does,
  • There is no physical building like scientific institutions used to have (or no photo of it),
  • The ImmInst Wiki is not updated (I would remove it and focus on the website content and possibly on the main Wikipedia);
  • Calendar is empty (and I would remove it completely as it looks like now)
  • There are no info about the scientific advisors on the website - linking the names to the forum does not look serious. No one else has an academic title (Ph.D.), only Brian Wowk?


Those are good ideas, we could get to work on them all except for the brick and mortar location, but we need more hands on deck for items like these, and are currently working to recruit more through places like the content management team like Mind suggests. Please do consider joining this. Your participation there could be invaluable.


I think we need to:

  • clean the website and divide it into sections of scientific interests


We have the development of a proposal for a science section that would include a section of the forum where only invites and applicants can discuss things. A better system of content management pages surrounding that would be something the project will discuss and get into as well. If you want in on that please help support and spur along this discussion, basic proposal on it here.


  • more importantly: ask more _scientists_ to officially become ...... .......And a chatroom time and link, if the particular team uses the chatroom. In Cryonics and Aging sections, respectively, the Open Letters should be linked.

  • Those are great ideas, and if you make it in as a Navigator and join the Content Management Team then we would be delighted if you would help manage those aspects of those pages. For example when somebody like Ben Best indicates they would join the advisors, then we would send them to you so the notion wouldnt get lost in the shuffle, and then you could go about setting up a advisors page spot and a page for him, or you could delegate the task out to other team members if you end up as a lead of the content management team. We are only a small group of active workers here at this point, working to continue to expand to cover more areas like this.


    ImmInst _must_ look like a scientific institution!


    That doesnt seem to be the case to me, but I could be wrong. I think that we need to look like a foundation that supports and advocates for legitimate research, and that is working to grow potentially into an Institute and movement.

    If it does not, we will be always treated like a cult, scam, wishful thinking etc.


    I dont know about that, that might be true, but I think another big piece in this puzzle is getting more media exposure. For example Mind is gearing up to do an interview to run as part of a show on tv that will likely mention Imminst. I think that the more media that people like the guy at the science fair see about Imminst, the more they will see that we are something that they would want to associate with, because we are, they just dont know that yet. People hardly know anything about us, but we are working continuously to grow and get Imminst out to the world more and more.

    No VIP and their fame will help if there is no clearly explained, and strongly supported, science behind it.


    I think your ideas for ways to beef up the content management pages can help that a lot.

    If about ten links form the main site lead to non-scientific discussions on the forum, by just regular users.
    So ImmInst looks like a society of non-scientists who just have some ideas to share on the forum. And even scientists and leadership use nicknames instead of real names.



    The science invite and application only section, if it goes through, should help to change all of that. People list their real names in the leadership pages, and are encouraged to do so in the forum. I sign all my letters and things with my real name.


    The Writing Contest should be a scientific one - if we sponsor science fiction, the world looks at us like at science fiction. .....
    ......That it costs? Yes, it does.
    But on one will say that ImmInst is "remote from the other areas of science and engineering" (prof. Turski).


    An essay contest can be run too. A person could contact professors and find some to agree to get their students to do papers on certain themes involving this cause, and then we could award them prizes, grant money maybe, etc... Such an event would need a team leader to head it up and propose workable components though. If you want to do that, you can propose it, and or you could look around and help recruit such a person. I and others are constantly, constantly recruiting, and prodding, and poking, and paying, and incentivizing, and asking people to aid with this growing cause, but unfortunately, getting the show on the road takes a mega ton of preparation like this, preparation that a growing core of us here are committing to going the distance with. If you want to join this core, please do.

    And please, no two names (which scientific institution has two names?...), no other name, the name is OK, it is catching attention, now only some reforms and we grow up to it.
    (“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” - Mahatma Gandhi)


    Right, two names in that way would have those draw backs and we probably dont want that. What we are talking about here is different though. To be more clear, its not exactly a second name, it is the merging of many indefinite life extension organizations into a community network page with another name. It kills at least two birds with one stone, it ties us all together more, and it gives us another name to use in certain situations with out us having to give up the name Immortality Institute, which we are not doing.

    Think that 100 years ago scientists were convinced that atoms were only a theoretical metaphor. (source: Michio Kaku, Physics of the Impossible, part III)
    Ludwig Boltzman even committed suicide because he was criticized. He didn't know that only one year before Einstein had written and article proving that atoms existed. (source: Michio Kaku, op.cit.)
    Atoms survived as atoms, no other name needed.


    Right, the world will know the cause, and mission, and name of the Immortality Institute. Its just not a straight shot to get there at this point. We have to strategize in different scenarios.

    #22 Mind

    • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
    • 18,997 posts
    • 2,000
    • Location:Wausau, WI

    Posted 26 February 2010 - 08:32 PM

    During the Wednesday think tank session, Styles and I discussed the pruning of superfluous portals at Imminst. We discussed the Calendar. We decided that if we are not going to use it, which is most likely, then we should get rid of it. The current Calendar was a fine addition to try out a couple years ago when the forums were upgraded, but it is lacking in functionality. There are many free calendar/social networking tools out there today that are much more functional. It was suggested that we develop a Calendar for leadership and everyone be required to "subscribe" to the Calendar application so that they got emails or text messages on their phones about meetings, initiatives, and events. This would be nice, if we could find a good application that everyone is familiar with.

    Of course, we also have the forum subscription option already, maybe that would be good enough.

    In any case, from a content management perspective, Agent is correct, in that we need to update the front page to contain our most relevant information and links. The menus should be reformatted and we have to decide what things to drop that are not being used. Starting with the Calendar, then make a decision on the blogs and wiki. Probably need some new wording on the donate page and really need to spruce up and promote our research page and make it a main menu link on the front page and maybe in the forums.

    We can split this off into a new topic if need be, just thought this would be a good place to add to the ongoing discussion that Agent started.

    #23 Mind

    • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
    • 18,997 posts
    • 2,000
    • Location:Wausau, WI

    Posted 28 February 2010 - 02:10 PM

    Agent's comments also bring up the old discussion about having a "science only" or more science-based section of the forums. This has been suggested every year since the beginning of Imminst. This could be a invite only area and heavily moderated. No Flaming. No Off-topic. No Commercial posting.

    Anyway, the Institute does have a bifurcated byline "Advocacy & RESEARCH". We are certainly getting more into research and we would like to re-launch our research page with more content and a better design, plus make it a menu item on the front page.

    Something to keep in mind when we upgrade the forum software. It might be a good time to test the "science only" section and design the site with the two aspects of Imminst in mind, the advocacy side and the research side.

    #24 Agent

    • Topic Starter
    • Life Member
    • 106 posts
    • 237
    • Location:blank

    Posted 01 March 2010 - 03:03 AM

    I think it would make us look a lot more serious if more scientists and leadership used their legal names too.

    Thank you for your support :)

    Regards to advisors, Ben Best mentioned to me that he was asked some time ago to be an advisor for ImmInst, to which he consented, "and then nothing came of that".

    :/
    Who is now responsible for recruiting advisors?
    Who was responsible in the past? Maybe there were more valuable persons contacted and "nothing came of that"?
    As to contacting them now, you would do it better, and perhaps there are some records of past letters to such persons that you could use as basis for new letters.

    Which is a chicken-and-egg thing, because to solicit those extra funds, we'd need to point to what marvelous things we've done with money in past.

    Film, book, two conferences. Not bad.
    What about asking those rich VIPs you write to, for sponsoring a scientific research?

    I have looked into the letters you had sent this month and I cannot see there a potential benefit for the VIP.
    The letters basically say "we need your fame (because we are too bad to survive alone)".

    A letter from Immortality Institute should rather say "we have some [well thought over] ideas for fighting death and aging, and a group of scientists willing to run experiments on them." (and that the cost of an experiment is $... etc., and that it may add years to the VIP's life, and that very few people are brave enough to actually want to see the future in say 1000 years, so the standard way of fundraising amongst average people doesn't work here.)

    Change the text of course but write something that makes them feel elite and the best :)
    Sell an idea that you cannot prove but that also cannot be disproved. And there is some evidence that it may be right. This is how sport, politics, diets, and so on, sell. [Now HIDE THIS TOPIC ;P] ...this is what people quarrel about. Emotions. Uncertainty. Immortality is a cause big enough for a VIP, in contrast with simple sport or even sponsoring foundations. An accomplished VIP may have a new reason to feel being at the top of the top... etc., now sell it. :)

    Also: I don't know about the US, but here referring to one's intelligence would be highly suspicious and would probably result in the recipient being very, very cautious. If not in throwing the letter in the bin. :) Do you seriously think that a famous, rich person has so low self-esteem that they will like someone to admit their intelligence? Here it would be rather offending than convincing.

    (Do you use a letter headed paper, stamp etc.?... envelope with printed logo?... Your own ImmInst Director's business cards?...)

    And, I look forward to the more to come.

    Be careful what you wish for... ;)

    #25 Agent

    • Topic Starter
    • Life Member
    • 106 posts
    • 237
    • Location:blank

    Posted 01 March 2010 - 04:45 AM

    We are more like a Foundation, growing toward an Institute and a movement. [...] We wouldn't be talking about research we are doing, because we don't have any, we aren't an institute at this time.

    OK, OK, I will stick to the "growing toward". :)

    I think we need to:
    * clean the website and divide it into sections of scientific interests

    ...just like Italians just did on the next day I posted the above: http://www.transuman.../laboratori.asp

    to recruit more through places like the content management team like Mind suggests. Please do consider joining this.

    OK, but I cannot see any thread entitled "Join the Team" or anything similar :)
    http://www.imminst.o...-Team-f376.html

    We have the development of a proposal for a science section that would include a section of the forum where only invites and applicants can discuss things.

    Sounds like a good idea.

    A person could contact professors and find some to agree to get their students to do papers on certain themes involving this cause, and then we could award them prizes, grant money maybe, etc... Such an event would need a team leader to head it up and propose workable components though. If you want to do that, you can propose it, and or you could look around and help recruit such a person.

    For the start we can set up a contest with similar rules to the current one (i.e. announce it on the website, on Facebook, and perhaps on some external forums). And just money or books as prizes (as it is now).

    I think that ImmInst could benefit of short essays just like that one that I linked to. They could be used to explain our ideas or using simple language, or just in short - to not bore the reader. E.g. some of the best essays may be used on the website, brochures, or even in a next book, in a specially designed section written by ImmInst members (not scientists). So that ImmInst can show that even its average members are educated ;) One essay - one topic. One member can write more essays. With references/bibliography/sources. (Rules can be different than these - we have to invent them so that the result is beneficial. In the next contest we can raise the bar.)

    Can our Advisors be those who will be checking the essays? Let's start with those who agree to be in the jury.
    So: first ask advisors for supervising, and when we know what scientific fields we have available/supported by the advisors, we make the contest known officially. And that, after the current writing contest is over and prizes awarded.

    #26 JLL

    • Guest
    • 2,192 posts
    • 161

    Posted 01 March 2010 - 07:50 AM

    Agent, your ideas are very good.

    #27 Agent

    • Topic Starter
    • Life Member
    • 106 posts
    • 237
    • Location:blank

    Posted 02 March 2010 - 05:30 PM

    Agent, your ideas are very good.

    Thank you!




    0 user(s) are reading this topic

    0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users