41 replies to this topic

[togameru]

For the inveterate problem of libidinous deficiency, I've tried all of the following compounds:

Cabergoline
Pramipexole
Ropinirole
Selegiline
Levodopa
Tyrosine
Phenylalanine
Phenylethylamine
Dextroamphetamine
Bupropion
Caffeine
Agomelatine
Nefazodone
Trazodone
Mirtazapine
Tianeptine
Bremelanotide
Magnesium
Zinc
B Vitamins and every other essential nutrient/vitamin you can think of in small and large doses
Letrozole (aromatase inhibitor)
Testosterone cream
Naltrexone (which I'm currently taking)
Yohimbine
Maca root
Muira puama
Tongkat ali
Tribulus terrestris
Exercise
Protracted abjuration from all forms of sexual activity

None of these things has had any effect. In fact, most of them extirpated whatever diaphanous flickers of sexual energy remained to me.

I haven't taken an SSRI in years and I recall having been exceptionally horny on at least a few occasions since the last time I took any SSRI. So, I don't think the issue is Post-SSRI sexual dysfunction.

Strangely enough, the only medications I've ever used that have increased my libido - and not only increased it but made of me a sex maniac - were... wait for it... quetiapine and ziprasidone. (Well, selegiline + phenylethylamine occasionally made me horny but the combination was very unreliable; typically they actually reduced my interest in sex.) They should have theoretically put my prolactin levels through the roof, annihilating my sex drive; but, instead, during the period of time when I was on them, I was constantly preoccupied with sex.

I understand that 5-HT2A receptor activation - or so I seem to recall - can put a damper on one's libido. I've also read that 5-HT2A receptors, at least in certain regions in the brain, are upregulated to a profound degree in depressed and suicidal people, of whom I am one. Perhaps that's the reason why the atypical antipsychotics I took relieved my sexual anhedonia despite their D2 antagonism? Seems a reasonable hypothesis at first glance, but of mirtazapine, trazodone, and nefazodone, all 5-HT2A antagonists, none has increased my interest in sex more than by a nearly unnoticeable amount.

Can't take antipsychotics, though, since, notwithstanding their positive effect on my libido, they are hellish drugs.


Now on to the topic of anhedonia and emotional numbing:

I've been this way for at least two years and I don't think I can tolerate it another second (this statement portends emotion, and so may seem to belie my claim of suffering from emotional numbing; but when people speak of the phenomenon they rarely mean a complete absence of emotion. In my case, I can experience certain emotional sensations but they're all exceedingly simplistic and exclusively negative.) I love no one; I enjoy nothing; I am moved by nothing, neither books, music, movies, television, nature, art; I am merely thinking, perceiving awareness. I bear the panoply of a human being, but everything inside of me that once was good, light, beautiful, creative, imaginative, and positive has been ablated. I am very nearly a robot.

Has anyone in his experimentation with various pharmaceuticals and supplements ever encountered something that could combat such severe anhedonia as besets me? Anything that strengthens emotion, good or bad?

I found this: http://www.freepaten...com/5028612.pdf But so far it seems to be nothing more than a crock of shit or maybe I'm not taking enough naltrexone.


Someone take pity on me for once. Please. I have taken this issue to so many people, including many doctors, and to so many fora and the response is always silence. Someone say something. I hate feeling as if I were talking to a wall.

Edited by togameru, 03 January 2010 - 07:00 AM.

[Logan]

For your libido you did not mention taking Horny Goat Weed, Ginkgo Biloba, or Cayenne Pepper. These probably won't help much but they are at least worth the try.

As far as LDN(low dose naltrexone) goes, I think you need to give it some time and find the right dose for you. How long have you been on it?

Have you heard of combining Zoloft with Nortriptyline(Pamelor)? This may be a good combo for anhedonia. I believe the Nortriptyline will negate any sexual side effects from Zoloft.

What about an MAOI like Parnate?

You could try Piracetam and see if it helps to wake your mind up and allow you to see things in a more creative colorful way again.

Why have you been on anti-psychotics? Do you have a mood disorder?

Are you seeing a psychiatrist?

Maybe consider combining some herbs like Bacopa, Ashwaghanda, and St. John's Wort. Who knows, you might react better to these than the heavy drugs. In your severe case this may be unlikely though. Wouldn't hurt to try. Just wear sunglasses regularly if you try SJW.

I think if you treat your anhedonia your libido will improve. What about some forms of therapy? I know many people think therapy is useless.

http://www.google.co...H2Mg6RnhknR3DOw

Have you tried Sam-e?

I would go ahead and try St. Joh's Wort, Perika or New Chapter's SC27-Kira is the more calming of the 3. St. John's wort may target all three neurotransmitters and at the right dose with the right brand it can be as powerful as pharmaceutical AD's

Or, go see a psychiatrist and talk to him about combining Nortriptyline with Zoloft.

Sorry you are struggling in this way. I hope you find something that works for you. It may take a combination of more than a few approaches.

[yucca06]

It looks to me you can take anything you want, it will NOT have any effect at all.

In fact, you look like you've poisoned with heavy metals, like mercury or aluminium.

Do you have lots of amalgams in your mouth ? (mercury...), or did you do vaccines in the last years ? It could really be the way to search...

[OneScrewLoose]

It looks to me you can take anything you want, it will NOT have any effect at all.

In fact, you look like you've poisoned with heavy metals, like mercury or aluminium.

Do you have lots of amalgams in your mouth ? (mercury...), or did you do vaccines in the last years ? It could really be the way to search...

*sigh*

...

But anyway, are you sure the agomelatine you got was legit? Are you in Europe?

One thing that may help is Amitriptyline. It's an SRI, NRI and 5HT2C inverse agonist. The latter helps block the numbing effects of the SRI property, and increases dopamine in pleasure centers in the brain. It's also a 5HT2A antagonist. Seems to be up your alley.

What are you on right now?

Have you tried meditation?

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 03 January 2010 - 02:53 PM.

[Cappa]

For the inveterate problem of libidinous deficiency, I've tried all of the following compounds:

...

Someone take pity on me for once. Please. I have taken this issue to so many people, including many doctors, and to so many fora and the response is always silence. Someone say something. I hate feeling as if I were talking to a wall.

Hey, not sure what's going on with those words, but I hate having to type in "define: diaphanous." In any case, anhedonia, low libido, and emotional numbing.. sounds like a dopamine problem. It also sounds quite similar to what I have experienced myself (I have PSSD) and what other people in the PSSD group (yahoo) have experienced. You may not have PSSD at all, although that's a hard thing to figure out since no one really knows exactly what PSSD is. In my opinion, it's an inappropriately named phenomenon that has an etiology that's still poorly understood. If you do, it's possible that if you don't have sex or jerk off for some time that your libido, creativity, etc. will return to some extent (until you eventually relieve yourself). Many people with PSSD have little boosts in libido, etc. every now and then until things eventually go downhill again (or things stick and they are "cured").

Have you had any labs done? If so, what do they reveal? You say you are depressed.. what about anxiety and stress? Are you depressed in an irritable, lethargic, cranky kind of way that would be more indicative of hypogonadism (or another related hormonal problem) or is it another form of depression? How do your symptoms correlate to your mood state, and in the times that your libido has been better, what was your mood like (and what drugs were you taking, etc.)?

Edited by Cappa, 03 January 2010 - 02:53 PM.

[EmbraceUnity]

You might want to try Histidine for libido. I would recommend Tryptophan at night to help with your depression and sleep, since it is speculated most Americans have subclinical tryptophan deficiency. Tryptophan is a serotonin precursor. Also, what is your diet like? Carbs are needed for serotonin production, and if you are on a keto diet or something, that could be an issue. If it is a dopamine issue as cappa said, then it is interesting that PEA didn't work for you. Perhaps you ought to try it again? Or maybe try chocamine or say 40g of pure cocoa powder.

Edited by progressive, 03 January 2010 - 02:56 PM.

[caston]

I don't understand why you would be worried about decreased libido. Personally life would be much easier and more enjoyable if I was without sex drive for it causes me more problems than you could imagine.

Are you perhaps trying to keep up with a partner?

Do you use or have a history of using porn?

Edited by caston, 03 January 2010 - 04:08 PM.

[Logan]

I don't understand why you would be worried about decreased libido. Personally life would be much easier and more enjoyable if I was without sex drive for it causes me more problems than you could imagine.

Are you perhaps trying to keep up with a partner?

Do you use or have a history of using porn?

I can think of a reason why anyone would want to have a normal healthy libido-Sex is FUN!! Besides, who wants to go out and be around the opposite sex and not feel like doing anything with them even when they are attracted to them.

I understand what you are saying about sex getting you problems. I've felt that way at times in the past. I believe it is not the sex drive but other factors that cause the problems. You can have a great libido and at the same time be in control of how much sex you have and how many people you have it with. It's called a balance.

I have had a ridiculous sex drive/libido all my life and I was out of control having way too much sex with way too many women at times. I realize though that it was not just my libido that was the problem. Sometimes we don't realize we are subconsciously using sex to deal with other things like anger or to fill in an void in our lives.

[Thorsten3]

The best 'supplement' for libido is undoubtably ghb. When used responsibly and accordingly for these purposes it is the best you can imagine. Rock hard erections and a sex drive that shoots through the roof. To the point where it becomes more of an annoyance in all fairness. Where are you from? I want to get rid of mine. Anyone from the UK I can send it to them.

I don't understand why you would be worried about decreased libido. Personally life would be much easier and more enjoyable if I was without sex drive for it causes me more problems than you could imagine.

Are you perhaps trying to keep up with a partner?

Do you use or have a history of using porn?

I can think of a reason why anyone would want to have a normal healthy libido-Sex is FUN!! Besides, who wants to go out and be around the opposite sex and not feel like doing anything with them even when they are attracted to them.

I understand what you are saying about sex getting you problems. I've felt that way at times in the past. I believe it is not the sex drive but other factors that cause the problems. You can have a great libido and at the same time be in control of how much sex you have and how many people you have it with. It's called a balance.

I have had a ridiculous sex drive/libido all my life and I was out of control having way too much sex with way too many women at times. I realize though that it was not just my libido that was the problem. Sometimes we don't realize we are subconsciously using sex to deal with other things like anger or to fill in an void in our lives.

[Thorsten3]

Also I found L-Arigine useful in the past. When used by the body it increases nitric oxide hence improving blood flow to your vital organs much in the way ghb does hence improving erection and performance. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't increase desire though which is the main problem you are having by the sounds of things.

[caston]

morgantor: I can think of hundreds of things that are more fun than sex. Roller blading, ice skating, kite flying, backyard rockets, absailing, bungee jumping, jet skying, boating or sailing, water skiing, fishing, kayaking, motor cross, drifting, drag racing, go karting, mountain climbing, hiking, bike riding or mountain biking, running, cave exploring, weight training, eating, cooking, gardening, chemistry experiments, electronics, HAM radio engineering, woodwork, swimming, surfing, body boarding, flying fox, air balooning, hunting, paintball, gaming, sporting, computer hacking, making prank calls and so on.

Just enjoy as many of these things as you can and try to think of more!

You will be having so much fun you won't even care about your libido it might even help it anyway.

Edited by caston, 04 January 2010 - 03:51 PM.

[stephen_b]

Can you describe your naltrexone regime in more detail?

[caston]

screw naltrexone just enjoy life

[Cappa]

screw naltrexone just enjoy life

No offense.. but you're way off. Until you've experienced this, you couldn't fully understand what it feels like. The same "stuff" (dopamine, testosterone, etc.) that's responsible for sexual drive and attraction is responsible for allowing one to enjoy other aspects of life. It seems like something is screwed up with togameru's dopamine. No dopamine, no enjoyment of music, no riding bikes, no flying kites. No sunshine. No lollipops.

Edited by Cappa, 05 January 2010 - 01:47 AM.

[caston]

Then shouldn't he see a neuro endocrinologist?

[Cappa]

Then shouldn't he see a neuro endocrinologist?

Yeah.. maybe.

Naltrexone should increase erection frequency but may also be contributing to a low mood/anhedonia. It's important to know the circumstances surrounding its use.

[StrangeAeons]

I have no useful advice. I've been through some similar stuff and have likewise been refractory. At one point I had great hope because my iron levels were revealed to be rock bottom and I figured repletion would get things up and running again; but no dice.
I will take a few shots in the dark:
Hang in there, though, and don't be afraid to get aggressive when it comes to addressing the medical aspects of your problems. It might be a good idea to comb through the list of what you've tried and figure out which items have been most benign, then talk to a doctor about some sort of heavy augmentation strategy.

I really wouldn't recommend MAOI's, amino acids, chelation, or meditation. That's just inexperienced people not properly understanding the issue; balancing nutrition may be marginally beneficial, but don't hold out on that stuff.

[nootrope]

Cordyceps is a great supplement for increasing libido and testosterone.

[Logan]

morgantor: I can think of hundreds of things that are more fun than sex. Roller blading, ice skating, kite flying, backyard rockets, absailing, bungee jumping, jet skying, boating or sailing, water skiing, fishing, kayaking, motor cross, drifting, drag racing, go karting, mountain climbing, hiking, bike riding or mountain biking, running, cave exploring, weight training, eating, cooking, gardening, chemistry experiments, electronics, HAM radio engineering, woodwork, swimming, surfing, body boarding, flying fox, air balooning, hunting, paintball, gaming, sporting, computer hacking, making prank calls and so on.

Just enjoy as many of these things as you can and try to think of more!

You will be having so much fun you won't even care about your libido it might even help it anyway.

I can and have thoroughly enjoyed many of these as much as I have enjoyed sex. Sex is just something different than anything else, you cant really compare it. I would say that I can enjoy many things just as much as I can enjoy sex, just in a different way.

Though I do like to lift weights, I can't see how weight training would be as fun as having sex with someone you have great chemistry with. When you have such good sexual chemistry with someone, there are not many things that match the level of fun and fantasy that sex with them has.

Have you had issues with having too much sex before and it getting in the way? Maybe that is the problem. It's all about a balance.

[Logan]

morgantor: I can think of hundreds of things that are more fun than sex. Roller blading, ice skating, kite flying, backyard rockets, absailing, bungee jumping, jet skying, boating or sailing, water skiing, fishing, kayaking, motor cross, drifting, drag racing, go karting, mountain climbing, hiking, bike riding or mountain biking, running, cave exploring, weight training, eating, cooking, gardening, chemistry experiments, electronics, HAM radio engineering, woodwork, swimming, surfing, body boarding, flying fox, air balooning, hunting, paintball, gaming, sporting, computer hacking, making prank calls and so on.

Just enjoy as many of these things as you can and try to think of more!

You will be having so much fun you won't even care about your libido it might even help it anyway.

I can and have thoroughly enjoyed many of these as much as I have enjoyed sex. Sex is just something different than anything else, you cant really compare it. I would say that I can enjoy many things just as much as I can enjoy sex, just in a different way.

Though I do like to lift weights, I can't see how weight training would be as fun as having sex with someone you have great chemistry with. When you have such good sexual chemistry with someone, there are not many things that match the level of fun and fantasy that sex with them has.

Have you had issues with having too much sex before and it getting in the way? Maybe that is the problem. It's all about a balance.

[Logan]

I have no useful advice. I've been through some similar stuff and have likewise been refractory. At one point I had great hope because my iron levels were revealed to be rock bottom and I figured repletion would get things up and running again; but no dice.
I will take a few shots in the dark:
Hang in there, though, and don't be afraid to get aggressive when it comes to addressing the medical aspects of your problems. It might be a good idea to comb through the list of what you've tried and figure out which items have been most benign, then talk to a doctor about some sort of heavy augmentation strategy.

I really wouldn't recommend MAOI's, amino acids, chelation, or meditation. That's just inexperienced people not properly understanding the issue; balancing nutrition may be marginally beneficial, but don't hold out on that stuff.

Why not an MAOI? If the OP feels that much better on one, what harm would it do? Jesus, he/she has been on so much crap already, some drugs that are more invasive than anything like Parnate.

Ultimately it will come down to what the doctor recommends and possibly more trials, unfortunately. The OP definitely needs to see a good doctor and get to the bottom of what is going on.

[OneScrewLoose]

I have no useful advice. I've been through some similar stuff and have likewise been refractory. At one point I had great hope because my iron levels were revealed to be rock bottom and I figured repletion would get things up and running again; but no dice.
I will take a few shots in the dark:
Hang in there, though, and don't be afraid to get aggressive when it comes to addressing the medical aspects of your problems. It might be a good idea to comb through the list of what you've tried and figure out which items have been most benign, then talk to a doctor about some sort of heavy augmentation strategy.

I really wouldn't recommend MAOI's, amino acids, chelation, or meditation. That's just inexperienced people not properly understanding the issue; balancing nutrition may be marginally beneficial, but don't hold out on that stuff.

Yeah cause meditation is totally useless, it's not like behavior modification and concentration excercises can have a direct effect on the brain or anything...oh wait":
http://en.wikipedia....Neuroplasticity

Now I am not saying it's going to fix his problems, but to suggest that it's not going to help at all is just stupid.

[VespeneGas]

I see no need to get feisty here. I think we can agree that if the low libido/anhedonia has an organic cause, meditation is unlikely to be of much benefit (for these two problems specifically). Conversely, if they are mediated by anxiety or emotional blocks, meditation might be quite beneficial.

Considering that it would almost certainly benefit the OP's life in other ways, and it has no side effects, it seems worth trying.

Togameru, if you haven't gotten a full sex hormone panel, I'd strongly recommend doing so (be sure to include free and total T, DHT, E2, total E, SHBG, prolactin) and maybe a thyroid panel.

This paper may be of interest:  Quetiapine_and_Libido.pdf   76.28KB   104 downloads

You might look into agomelatine, vis a vis its 5ht2c antagonistic effects.

Edit: attachment issues

Edited by VespeneGas, 05 January 2010 - 07:21 PM.

[OneScrewLoose]

Well, it could do something for libido if there is a psycological component to it. As for the anhedonia...Over the last month I have been doing these intense concentration exercises 4+ hours a day using Starcraft, in order to fix my ADD. My concentration has gone up significantly, but something else has happened: I am finding I am enjoying things more, and it seems to have to do with the exercises. It could be that I am potentiating the entire dopamine system. I am not gonna come to conclusions just yet, but in 2-3 weeks I am gonna make a big post on this.

[Cappa]

Well, it could do something for libido if there is a psycological component to it. As for the anhedonia...Over the last month I have been doing these intense concentration exercises 4+ hours a day using Starcraft, in order to fix my ADD. My concentration has gone up significantly, but something else has happened: I am finding I am enjoying things more, and it seems to have to do with the exercises. It could be that I am potentiating the entire dopamine system. I am not gonna come to conclusions just yet, but in 2-3 weeks I am gonna make a big post on this.

Starcraft the game? Do you just play for 4 hours? I'm guessing there's more to it..

(note: I've never played Starcraft).

[OneScrewLoose]

Yeah, there's a lot more to it than just playing it. I'll post about it soon enough.

(Note: You should play StarCraft, it's fun).

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 06 January 2010 - 12:49 AM.

[EmbraceUnity]

Yeah, there's a lot more to it than just playing it. I'll post about it soon enough.

(Note: You should play StarCraft, it's fun).

Funny that you mentioned your experiment after VespeneGas's post. That game does rule though. Thanks for reminding me to play it.

[StrangeAeons]

I advised against MAOI's because they don't match the appropriate constellation of systems; this is not a classical presentation of depression, nor is there any specific indications of mood-reactivity, atypical subtype, or interpersonal sensitivity; those are the indices most closely associated with the MAOI-responsive subtype. I think that playing "pin the tail on the donkey" with various treatment types becomes deleterious at a certain point, and it's far better to take a targeted approach.
I really don't appreciate the sarcasm about neuroplasticity. Explain to me how the magic of neuroplasticity can recover hedonic tone? And more importantly, how meditation achieves this? Yes, hypothetically it could work... is there any particular reason to believe it would where other methods have failed? You're using that word as if it were "magic" without taking thought to the pathways involved. It's one thing to regenerate, say, short-term memory or motor function, curbing negative thought processes, reducing visceral aversions, etc... but those all require targeted therapies; and pardon me for being skeptical of your Starcraft experiments.
Something that requires a great deal of effort with only, potentially, a marginal gain... you might as well suggest calisthenics and eating your fruits and veggies. It's not inherently damning, but false hope and more run-of-the-mill generic "panaceas" are.

[mammalspod]

Togameru, I have a few questions.
Have you had bloodwork done and had your testosterone and thyroid levels checked? Are you sure the testosterone cream would have been a high enough dose to combat a deficiency? Do you have Parkinson's or Diabetese in the family? Which treatment afforded you the best results of all?

I know you said you can't take atypical anit-p's, but have you ever looked into low dose Solian?
I'll throw a few other ideas out there.
Non-libido diminishing antidepressant augmented with a thyroid enhancer.
Parnate (this would be the obvious clinical choice for the conditon you describe)
Sleep enhancement (supplements, sleep hygiene)
Rigorous, hardcore exercise- I know exercise is recommended a lot for depressive states, but I get into a bad anhedonic funk in the winter time that can only be relieved by absolutely killing myself in the gym, and I've tried most of the items on your list.

Low-carb, high protein diet-seriously try this along with exercise. It will have an activating effect. Most people don't realize that overloading on carbs makes people lazy due to serotonin release and insulin spiking.

Weight training along with a high protein, high fiber, low simple carb diet will improve hormone levels for men as well as a lot of risky medical treatments.

Let me know some more details and I'll try to help you out. I've dealt with this kind of thing before.
I AM NOT A DOCTOR

[carwashguy]

Has no one mentioned Viagra? I know it doesn't change your libido strictly speaking, but still.

I don't understand why you would be worried about decreased libido. Personally life would be much easier and more enjoyable if I was without sex drive for it causes me more problems than you could imagine.

Are you perhaps trying to keep up with a partner?

Do you use or have a history of using porn?

Your sex drive causes you problems? Are you a rapist or something? Okay, okay, I can understand if you mean STDs or pregnancy, but that's why we have safer sex nowadays. If you mean it causes you relationship problems, then that is cause to see a couples counselor. Anyways, there seems to be some substance behind the idea that more sex correlates positively with longevity. [1] [2] Not to mention, there's significant public opinion stating that a good sex life has many health benefits aside from longevity.

It's funny that you mention porn, because that happens to be a grade-A aphrodisiac. (And if you're hinting that porn causes ED or some nonsense like that, it would have to be a purely psychological affect--the problem is real if you can't get it up with and without porn.)

Edited by carwashguy, 09 January 2010 - 10:36 PM.