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The Big 8 - Existences Big Picture Big 8 Categories & Standalone Opportunities

big 8 big picture meaning of life what is there to do what does it mean to be alive existence purpose meaning

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#1 brokenportal

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:53 AM


Existences Big Picture Big 8 Categories and Standalone Opportunities (the big 8)



We have created an index of existences big picture with a list of 8 categories and standalone opportunities. Its purpose is to make it easier for people to wrap their brains around the opportunities presented to them, to allow people the chance to have a clearer understanding of why the chance to exist is so important. It’s more detailed than “everything there is to do in existence” and its broader than your typical, “we can play basketball and talk to our friends and listen to music and think about philosophy and hope for space travel.” This list allows you to concisely imagine the scope and breadth of the incredible potential we are left here with.

Should people want it? It seems that people are bound to want all of the items because not wanting any particular one is a fallacy. So you could reject its pursuit illogically, but that is not really a rejection. Why want it? Because you cant logically not keep wanting, and if you keep wanting, you're likely to come across ever more of this list so long as indefinite life holds up. What would the best kind of indefinite lifespan be like? Can we even image that it could be good to live that long? It would be a life where there is a plethora of new diverse things to do, experiences to have. Even if we did get sick of some things, we would move on to others, and then later those other things would be good again. This happens to us on a daily, weekly, monthly and yearly basis, and with the passage of time it becomes more and more apparent that the worn out experiences are desirable again, and so with indefinite life extension it seems the options are there for renewal indefinitely much more so. Even if we did hypothetically get bored of everything after say, trillions and trillions and trillions of years, we would have options like erasing portions of our memory, if the memory wasn’t lost in parts naturally already. Facing death is to understand the impending opportunity cost that it presents.

The big 8 is a list of the following opportunities that we can come to know:

- the nature of existence, ie infinity, consciousness, particle physics, are there other senses, etc
- if there is a god, gods, no god, or something else
- how we got here
- how the universe got here
- what all else is out there, ie hover ability, light speed, aliens, populated galaxies, dimensions etc
- all forms and extents of all pleasures current and undiscovered
- the fulfillment of all goals that time brings you to want, ie restaurant owner, pro football, climbing mountains etc
- universal elimination of fallacy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epTP-kafaoo

An expansion on each of the 8:

1. What is the the nature of existence? There are questions like what is smaller than the smallest known particle, what is the nature of infinity, is string theory or some other theory the explanation for things, how does gravity work etc. How can you so often engage goals involving things like whether or not to buy more applesauce, but not ever write pursuing the answer to this question into your priorities? If existence is a computer simulation on somebody’s desk, then we need to know that in order to plot out what we should actually be doing. There are so many profound idiosyncratic situations we could find out there that we can’t even think of yet. If the sub atomic particle “strings” are actually fluctuating in and out between dimensions then we’ll need to know that kind of stuff. In that example alone we just don’t know what figuring that out would do to change the way we set our priorities, it could mean anything. Maybe for example, we find out that we don’t move into the future, but that we create the past in our memories one day at a time. Maybe we find that there are wave lengths that cause people to have lower potentials, and that by adjusting it everybody becomes a super future pioneering entrepreneur, maybe we find out that our universe is also a part of a particle in a larger construct, whatever that construct is, and it would profoundly alter our perception of what priority is, for any of a number of reasons. If there is a particle that is shaped like and behaves like a fish or a z or hydrogen atom, then we want to know that. If the nature of infinity is that it loops inter-dimensionally in a way that we can plot out, then we need to know this to get the right priorities in order. These things affect our priorities. They affect the percent of time that we should be allotting to the contemplation of whether or not to obtain more applesauce.

2. Is there a god, gods, no god, or something else? People pretend to know, but that cannot, and has not ever been good enough. We have to actually know. If the god of the one of the Bible’s is real then we will want to know that asap so we can live in accordance with that scenario. If we don’t then it spells out very serious consequences. What might the fortunes and consequences of other scenarios even be? If there is more than one god then we will want to know that so we can figure out how to balance that and live within that frame of things. If there is no god it will be important to know that, not least because if religion is false then it shouldn’t be impacting the priorities of our world, from the encouragement of fallacious thinking, to suicide bombings, to impediment of stem cell research, the profundity of the list goes on. If there is something else like a flying spaghetti monster that created us in any of a variety of ways then we’ll want to know that and what its nature is, maybe it needs us to free it from some genie bottle so it can lay out the blue prints to half of the universe for us or something like this. It could be something completely different. There could be some complex, other worldly 7 dimensional convoluted system of determinism combined with spaghetti monster dinosaur god ghosts, and elements of free will, with some glitter and spice. We have no f’ing idea if there is a god, gods, no god or something else, and its life and world shapingly important that we do.

3. How did we get here? Did we evolve? Where we created? Did aliens plant us here? Are we holograms? Are we a figment of our own imaginations, or somebody else’s, or something else’s? Are we brains in vats? Are we in a computer program? Where we created, but also evolve? Do we evolve but some of us were created? Are some of us in a hologram and some of us planted by aliens? Are we an intergalactic reality show that mixes species together? Were we somehow always here? Are there countless theories within us always being here if that is the general case? Is it something we can’t even fathom? We have no idea. How can we be content to be here, but never know how we got here? I’ll tell you how, if we never think about it; think about it, your life depends on it. There are, again, just so many scenarios, these examples are meant as just that, examples. As an example here, some group of “people” may have hidden us away here in this galaxy in order to try to preserve their species from extinction by chance, by some cosmic predator, to try to diversify perspective and insight by isolating colonies, etc. The priorities we set depend on knowing things like this. We don’t know how we got here and the gravity of the reality that an answer exists but we don’t know makes it incumbent upon thinking beings to pursue the answer. We go over one important angle on this more in the section called, Some of the many reasons to not want to let people decay into oblivion.

4. How did the universe get here? There are countless avenues being explored, from string theory to, cycle theories, big bang, capture theory, creationism, was always here, times arrow, combinations of them, different theories with in string theory, many different cycle theories, existence could have somehow always been here, and many others. Did this place really just spring out of nothing? But how? What was before the nothing? Did that exploding speck emerge from another place or break off from something? And what? These aren’t just novelty questions asked in our youth and traditionally tabled ever more increasingly as most of us grow older into a more “practical” way of life. (practical aka beginning to compromise with imminent death) The possibilities of where an exploding speck may have come from in itself leads us down countless avenues. There are countless avenues in between these all, and countless more that we can’t even fathom yet. If we don’t live in terms of the big 8 then we are afraid to approach things like this. When we are afraid to approach them then our comfort zones remain limited. Don’t limit yourself, start thinking about it. We cannot excuse being trapped in a limited cave.

5. What all else is out there? You name it, is there hover ability? Will we be able to explore other galaxies? Are there aliens on another planet, on countless other planets that we could be hob nobbing with, or studying? Will there be fully submersible virtual reality? Invisibility? Mind uploading? Ways to gain super strength? Buried treasures? More creatures in the depths of the oceans? Buried treasures or abandoned libraries on other planets? Some kind of thing like light rays bouncing around in the universe that has recorded all of human history? Planets full of dinosaurs? Dinosaurs still here on earth? Will we be able to replicate them? Will people be able to fly like we drive now? The list is as endless as it is fundamentally important to the priorities that you set as a being - with the faculties that you’ve been endowed with and as a being - as an entity with the chance to exist. There is more to your existence than shadow puppets on the wall; you can choose to live in accordance with it.

6. What are the forms and extents of all pleasures current and undiscovered? Can you imagine being on your death bed never having had say, tasted a candy bar before? What if you had never felt the joy of sight, would you feel like you had missed out on anything? If we are lost in the woods or the desert, and have to go without water for a long time, when we finally get that first taste of water, as many of us have experienced, it is a mind blowing experience. It tastes so good it’s unbelievable. What do you think it’s like to have super intelligence, easier ways to learn more, mechanisms that prevent against feeling too crappy, and that fend against the body’s natural roller coaster of ups and downs coinciding; what do you think it’s like to have that as your sailing through the stars to talk to new kinds of creatures, with advances toward important questions like how we got here and if there is a god, gods, no god, or something else breaking on the news? And that’s just a weak example. Imagine for example that a set of “eyes” that we didn’t know existed opened up allowing us to see textures we never knew. We think the simple pleasures we already know are all that await us in a vast, potentially infinite existence? They aren’t, and the reality of this is something that we need to think about when getting our priorities in this shot at existence we have here in order.

7. What is it like to have the chance to fulfill all goals that time brings you to want? If we sat down and wrote out a list of every goal we could want to pursue, then if we were honest with ourselves most of our lists would be very long. They would be endless. As time went on we would be able to continuously add things. There is: archeology, own a restaurant, play pro sports, write a movie, raise a family, raise 10 families, captain a boat, do recombinant gene engineering, invent things that go deeper than electron microscopes, write a book, teach a class, fly airplanes, climb mountains, scuba dive, be a journalist in Egypt, be a reporter in Saipan, build bridges, build skyscrapers, study any of numerous aspects of history, invent things; there are countless places to go and countless people to meet, there are countless options, and when you’re done with them time will have unlocked the doors to hosts of new as of yet unfathomable opportunities. You can’t even set your priorities until you get a grip on the scenario. You have to work on getting out of the cave. You certainly can’t complete the list in a cave.

8. What is it like to live in a world that is moving toward universal elimination of fallacy? Without ill logic, and confusion, random solutions, and half solutions, without antagonism and one-upmanship, prejudice, hate, greed, sloth, vanity, willful destruction, flippancy, caprice, limited understanding in key scenarios, and all of those kinds of things that come along with the ignorance of not knowing how to spot fallacy, then what would the world be like? The less fallacy we have, the more good, and construction there will be taking place. The less fallacy we have the more facilitation for all of the rest of the big 8 there will be. If everybody is smart enough to avoid recognizable mistakes, if an understanding of fallacy becomes common sense for the world starting at the k through 12 level, then the things that will need to happen to make all of the big 8 happen, including moving toward the universal elimination of fallacy, will happen faster. You don’t want war? You don’t want vice in this world? You don’t want waste? You don’t want corruption? You want kids to enjoy learning? You want faster solutions? You want to end poverty and pain? You want to clean up as much negative and move in the direction of as much positive as possible? Moving in the direction of the universal elimination of fallacy is a cornerstone to all of those things. It facilitates those things. The path to those solutions begins with moving in the direction of the elimination of fallacy. Sociology, ethics, science, philosophy, history, psychology, politics, communication, much if not everything starts with an understanding of fallacy. Let’s work toward its universal elimination.


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When we have these things then we can finally set further priorities. We can’t even begin to set our true priorities in life until we know many of these things. Setting priorities without knowing these things is like the people in Plato’s cave analogysetting their priorities based on the shadows on the wall. Don’t try to pick everything apart, and guess, and take stands and sides on so many big obscure issues right now in this “cave” that is this tiny speck we call earth, in this traditional 21rst century lifespan. Wait until we have escaped, and have the time, the tools, and the space and perspective to get a proper grasp on them. For example, if you are one of the people in the cave, don’t believe your fathoming about what the shadows might be trying to say about the crick in your neck and how it applies to your sleep, how your sleep might be the control booth that guides the carryings on of things that happens in the cave etc. Don’t believe your guess that the cockroaches on the floor must be a part of the construction of this place, or that the ceiling is the uppermost portion of existence. You’re comfortable there, but you need to expand that comfort zone. Try instead to get the hell out of the cave and figure those things out in the proper context, with the proper tools and space, with open, liberated frame of reference. By helping people to contemplate the big 8 we gradually and incrementally begin to help them expand their comfort zones to existence, the universe, the big picture, that place where they truly live. Ask yourself, if you were in Platos cave, would you accept it, or would you want out? If you accept it then you’re mired in fallacy and we are coming for you, to help you out of your rut. If you don’t accept it then line the questions up, put them in your scope, and help unlock the door to Platos cave with the MILE key so we can all sit back and let time take its course as we all sail toward the unveiling of the entire big picture together. Life is so much more than our current traditional lifespan and lifetime. Life is the big picture; those lacking enough of the right kinds of fallacy know this and go the MILE to see about getting there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69F7GhASOdM

Edited by brokenportal, 01 March 2012 - 09:28 PM.

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#2 Quasar

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:59 AM

The big 8, to know:

- the nature of "infinity"
- if there is a god, gods, no god, or something else
- how we got here
- how the universe got here
- what all else is out there like hover ability, light speed, aliens, populated galaxies, dimensions etc..
- all forms and extents of all pleasures current and undiscovered.
- the fulfillment of all goals that time brings you to want, restaurant owner, pro football, climbing mountains etc..
- universal elimination of fallacy


A very interesting list indeed, thank you.

However my No.1 is the nature of consciousness, which I think would bring everything else into focus. But maybe that's because I'm fiercely solipsistic in my philosophical view of consciousness.

#3 brokenportal

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 01:02 AM

This has been in my blog, but Im moving it out here as well. Im hesitant to write anything else in the topic because Im still not clear on some things. For example, what is a fitting name for a list like this? Should we all want everything in this list? Or is there a better way to phrase that? Such as, "This is a list of everything you can want."

I think the list is important for reasons that people like the great Victor Frankl call Logotherapy, or that people like the Japanese call Ikigai.

Frankl was in a concentration camp during ww11. He noticed that people that tended to survive through to the end, even though they seemed that they were just as skinny and malnutritioned and diseased as the rest, tended to be those that had something to want to get back to, like some research they were working on, a book they were writing, a wife they love dearly, etc... He may have been wrong, but the book definitely compelled me. I read it probably 10 times.

There is a lot of discussion to that, but basically I think its the same way for people and indefinite life extension. I think that people that want more out of existence, will tend to want to help more, and that people that dont think about wanting as much tend to help less.

I think the big 8 may need to be the "Ikigai" of this movement. Sure, people can fight for indefinite life extension with out being driven by opportunity as respresented by the big 8, but can the big 8 drive more fight?

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#4 brokenportal

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 01:08 AM

The big 8, to know:

- the nature of "infinity"
- if there is a god, gods, no god, or something else
- how we got here
- how the universe got here
- what all else is out there like hover ability, light speed, aliens, populated galaxies, dimensions etc..
- all forms and extents of all pleasures current and undiscovered.
- the fulfillment of all goals that time brings you to want, restaurant owner, pro football, climbing mountains etc..
- universal elimination of fallacy


A very interesting list indeed, thank you.

However my No.1 is the nature of consciousness, which I think would bring everything else into focus. But maybe that's because I'm fiercely solipsistic in my philosophical view of consciousness.



Ive been asking people to discuss this list with me for a long time, and give their feedback, insight, try to challenge it as a solid 8, try to add more that arent already incorporated, and now moments after bringing it from my blog to the forum I find that a 9th may be on the table.

For many years it was a big 7, but I kept challenging it, looking for more, and eventually, a couple of years ago, the 8th, univeral elimination of fallacy was added. For years now it has stood at 8, but Ive been looking. I think I may have missed "the nature of conciousness". Do you think it should be included, or is that represented well enough in, "how we got here"?

#5 Quasar

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 01:23 AM

The big 8, to know:

- the nature of "infinity"
- if there is a god, gods, no god, or something else
- how we got here
- how the universe got here
- what all else is out there like hover ability, light speed, aliens, populated galaxies, dimensions etc..
- all forms and extents of all pleasures current and undiscovered.
- the fulfillment of all goals that time brings you to want, restaurant owner, pro football, climbing mountains etc..
- universal elimination of fallacy


A very interesting list indeed, thank you.

However my No.1 is the nature of consciousness, which I think would bring everything else into focus. But maybe that's because I'm fiercely solipsistic in my philosophical view of consciousness.



Ive been asking people to discuss this list with me for a long time, and give their feedback, insight, try to challenge it as a solid 8, try to add more that arent already incorporated, and now moments after bringing it from my blog to the forum I find that a 9th may be on the table.

For many years it was a big 7, but I kept challenging it, looking for more, and eventually, a couple of years ago, the 8th, univeral elimination of fallacy was added. For years now it has stood at 8, but Ive been looking. I think I may have missed "the nature of conciousness". Do you think it should be included, or is that represented well enough in, "how we got here"?


I don't believe that an understanding of nature of consciousness can be derived by answering "how we got here?" because that question places the focus of our attention on a process of... well, creation (in a sense, and not necessarily a religious one).

I believe that consciousness, as we experience it, stands on its own without prior event. Of course the behaviourists will say that it is the firing of neurons aided by neurotransmitters that produce the phenomenon we call consciousness, but that really only explains the basis of it but not what it IS - what it IS that makes us want to live for ever, want to listen to sublime music and smell a wonderful flower, ie that impetus that wants to go on experiencing because it delights in it. This is it, the Experiencer - that is a more accurate word for what I mean by consciousness. The "I" that is aware of being "I" and is the same always, whatever our emotional or intellectual state.

#6 brokenportal

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 01:47 AM

I don't believe that an understanding of nature of consciousness can be derived by answering "how we got here?" because that question places the focus of our attention on a process of... well, creation (in a sense, and not necessarily a religious one).


Im not sure that it can either. Ill have to give it some more thought. I feel like the big 8 is like Chuck Liddel when he got knocked out in the first round of that big fight. The 8 them selves have a bit of idiosyncracity built in to the reason behind each one, they still stand, however this may be a 9th.

I believe that consciousness, as we experience it, stands on its own without prior event. Of course the behaviourists will say that it is the firing of neurons aided by neurotransmitters that produce the phenomenon we call consciousness, but that really only explains the basis of it but not what it IS - what it IS that makes us want to live for ever, want to listen to sublime music and smell a wonderful flower, ie that impetus that wants to go on experiencing because it delights in it. This is it, the Experiencer - that is a more accurate word for what I mean by consciousness. The "I" that is aware of being "I" and is the same always, whatever our emotional or intellectual state.


Do you think it should be added? Do you think it might do better for itself to be worded as "to know the nature of existence"? and finally, do you think that the questions should maybe be lumped in to one? Such as, "to know the answers to the big questions".

Also, this concept is looking for a better name than "the big 8" which would also help it a lot if it changes form. I toyed with requisite 8 for a while, but Im not sure that ultimately fit the best. Its more like, logic=constructive=big8, but thats not exactly it either.

#7 Quasar

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 10:10 PM

I don't believe that an understanding of nature of consciousness can be derived by answering "how we got here?" because that question places the focus of our attention on a process of... well, creation (in a sense, and not necessarily a religious one).


Im not sure that it can either. Ill have to give it some more thought. I feel like the big 8 is like Chuck Liddel when he got knocked out in the first round of that big fight. The 8 them selves have a bit of idiosyncracity built in to the reason behind each one, they still stand, however this may be a 9th.

I believe that consciousness, as we experience it, stands on its own without prior event. Of course the behaviourists will say that it is the firing of neurons aided by neurotransmitters that produce the phenomenon we call consciousness, but that really only explains the basis of it but not what it IS - what it IS that makes us want to live for ever, want to listen to sublime music and smell a wonderful flower, ie that impetus that wants to go on experiencing because it delights in it. This is it, the Experiencer - that is a more accurate word for what I mean by consciousness. The "I" that is aware of being "I" and is the same always, whatever our emotional or intellectual state.


Do you think it should be added? Do you think it might do better for itself to be worded as "to know the nature of existence"? and finally, do you think that the questions should maybe be lumped in to one? Such as, "to know the answers to the big questions".

Also, this concept is looking for a better name than "the big 8" which would also help it a lot if it changes form. I toyed with requisite 8 for a while, but Im not sure that ultimately fit the best. Its more like, logic=constructive=big8, but thats not exactly it either.


I think you are correct in your last paragraph. "The Big 8" does not do justice to the vastness of the concepts it encompasses. The nature of consciousness is always being looked into, but in fragmented forms. All endeavours of study and discovery attempt at enlarging our field of experience, ie. being conscious of more. But we never actually stop to enquire into WHAT is being conscious, WHAT is experiencing. It is not our thoughts because the Experiencer can examine them. Not the emotions, for the same reasons. Not the body for even more obvious reasons. It is something quite different but all-pervasive.

"The nature of existence" as you put it, is exactly the same thing, because existence can only be equated with consciousness. A stone exists because consciousness perceives its existence.I However no, the questions should remain separate to allow focussed debate of existence in its various manifestations.

#8 brokenportal

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 10:43 PM

I think you are correct in your last paragraph. "The Big 8" does not do justice to the vastness of the concepts it encompasses.


That was just its default name. Im not sure if it does it justice or not. Im wondering, could any single word or phrase actually do a summarization of every opportunity in existence, with main stand alone catagories, justice?

The point isnt just to know those things. The point also involves things like, its mystery is so profound. What about, "The profound reasons" maybe, "things to not want to die with out knowing." of course, thats to long, Im just not sure if we have, or can think of something that fits it right.


The nature of consciousness is always being looked into, but in fragmented forms. All endeavours of study and discovery attempt at enlarging our field of experience, ie. being conscious of more. But we never actually stop to enquire into WHAT is being conscious, WHAT is experiencing. It is not our thoughts because the Experiencer can examine them. Not the emotions, for the same reasons. Not the body for even more obvious reasons. It is something quite different but all-pervasive.


Right, exactly, the point of this list is to point out every thing that you should not be forgetting to want. Many people have to actually be reminded that thinking is a mind blowingly unreal amazing incredible mysterious thing. I dont, many dont, of course, many of us think about it all the time, but this list is here for things like this.

I mean litteraly, we could find people dying right now, and ask them, "did you regret missing out on anything?" and many would actually say things like, "yes I wish I had restored that car." or "yes I wish I had made up with my daughter" or something like that, and you would have many people that wouldnt even brush upon the big 8, which is a big part of the reason why people are not living it up, living to the max, innovating like there is an infinity of mystery out there, and an eternal wall of obliteration to avoid colliding with.

"The nature of existence" as you put it, is exactly the same thing, because existence can only be equated with consciousness. A stone exists because consciousness perceives its existence.I However no, the questions should remain separate to allow focussed debate of existence in its various manifestations.


Right, thats what I was thinking, so if a 9th is added, do you think that one or the other is better, or that they stand alone, or that one or the other encopasses? I think maybe just to possibly add "the nature of existence".

That wouldnt encompass "the nature of infinity" though would it?

#9 Quasar

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:05 PM

I think you are correct in your last paragraph. "The Big 8" does not do justice to the vastness of the concepts it encompasses.


That was just its default name. Im not sure if it does it justice or not. Im wondering, could any single word or phrase actually do a summarization of every opportunity in existence, with main stand alone catagories, justice?

The point isnt just to know those things. The point also involves things like, its mystery is so profound. What about, "The profound reasons" maybe, "things to not want to die with out knowing." of course, thats to long, Im just not sure if we have, or can think of something that fits it right.


The nature of consciousness is always being looked into, but in fragmented forms. All endeavours of study and discovery attempt at enlarging our field of experience, ie. being conscious of more. But we never actually stop to enquire into WHAT is being conscious, WHAT is experiencing. It is not our thoughts because the Experiencer can examine them. Not the emotions, for the same reasons. Not the body for even more obvious reasons. It is something quite different but all-pervasive.


Right, exactly, the point of this list is to point out every thing that you should not be forgetting to want. Many people have to actually be reminded that thinking is a mind blowingly unreal amazing incredible mysterious thing. I dont, many dont, of course, many of us think about it all the time, but this list is here for things like this.

I mean litteraly, we could find people dying right now, and ask them, "did you regret missing out on anything?" and many would actually say things like, "yes I wish I had restored that car." or "yes I wish I had made up with my daughter" or something like that, and you would have many people that wouldnt even brush upon the big 8, which is a big part of the reason why people are not living it up, living to the max, innovating like there is an infinity of mystery out there, and an eternal wall of obliteration to avoid colliding with.

"The nature of existence" as you put it, is exactly the same thing, because existence can only be equated with consciousness. A stone exists because consciousness perceives its existence.I However no, the questions should remain separate to allow focussed debate of existence in its various manifestations.


Right, thats what I was thinking, so if a 9th is added, do you think that one or the other is better, or that they stand alone, or that one or the other encopasses? I think maybe just to possibly add "the nature of existence".

That wouldnt encompass "the nature of infinity" though would it?


I think "The nature of consciousness (or existence)" should be the 9th - ie the last, as a summary of the other big questions because it encompasses them. The other questions are very important as they provide a thinking and debating structure, and the last one forms a background against which this thinking takes place. Ie. we discuss the nature of infinity, and/or whether there is a god etc, but the question of the nature of consciousness is always there as well because it is what is doing all this debating, if you see what I mean.

#10 brokenportal

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:16 PM

Possibly, but all the others that are more question orientated are first. However, does that matter enough? Consider that the list may need to be split, or that the questions may need to be combined.

I could be wrong about this whole list, but it just seems like these are the ones. It gets a little confusing, in that its two different concepts in one list, but I think, it seems, that they form thee big ones. I mean, some of these are questions, and some of these are sets of distinct, main kinds of goals.

I mean, for example, if tomorrow you woke up and you had amnesia, and you were on a planet covered in pink frosting where the rivers flowed marbles and the birds flew backwards, trees walked around, the wind whistled elvis songs, you could ask your self those questions, and you would still want to ask them all. You wouldnt just ask 2 of them, and you wouldnt be able to ask more than that, with out the other questions being a sub set of one of the 8, maybe 9. All of these questions would still be the main ones, and all of those goals would still be applicable, it seems.

Im leaning toward the nature of existenc, but Ill have to think about it and discuss it more.

#11 bacopa

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:47 PM

Did you come up with the big eight from brainstorming all of the important questions yourself? Or is this list a known entity already.

I think the nature of existence is very important but I think that asking what is consciousness should be a separate bullet, even though existence encompasses it. This is because, of course, it's a field of study into itself and also it seems so important to me that it belongs in the list.

My two cents

#12 brokenportal

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 02:00 AM

Did you come up with the big eight from brainstorming all of the important questions yourself? Or is this list a known entity already.


Its more like the boiled down elements that came from years and years of going round and round and round over philosophy and life in general. Which by the way, I think is one good invaluable source of learning. Never be afraid to continuosly engage in those "same old discussion" they constantly sprout up new things, usually small, but it builds up over time. I often compare to slowly upward curving spirals. Its kind of like mental grunt work.

These concepts all exist in one form or the other of course.

I think the nature of existence is very important but I think that asking what is consciousness should be a separate bullet, even though existence encompasses it. This is because, of course, it's a field of study into itself and also it seems so important to me that it belongs in the list.

My two cents


Im still not sure on this. Neither, or both may be added. Im not sure if the "nature of existence" is to close to "nature of infinity" or not. Maybe nature of infinity would be dropped if nature of existence were picked up. Hmm, I think I may have just figured it out. I think that the line may need to become an options line like some of the others, like this, "-the nature of existence, like infinity, conciousness, the elements of particle physics, etc..."

#13 till

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 05:47 AM

The big 8, to know:

- the nature of "infinity"
- if there is a god, gods, no god, or something else
- how we got here
- how the universe got here
- what all else is out there like hover ability, light speed, aliens, populated galaxies, dimensions etc..
- all forms and extents of all pleasures current and undiscovered.
- the fulfillment of all goals that time brings you to want, restaurant owner, pro football, climbing mountains etc..
- universal elimination of fallacy


Well, yes, I suppose...though I can think of questions that would interest me far more, like what is the nature of love, or what can we do to ensure that humankind does survive and stuff like that...

Still, in the end, for me personally, there's only one good reason: As long as you're alive you can always die, but when you're dead that's it. (At least this is what the evidence suggests.) So, why die? Seems rather silly to me. No more lovely women to look at. No more laughter. No more tears. No more stories to read or tell. No more beautiful vistas to behold. No more dreams. What a awful, dismal prospect.

Seriously, I don't much care or think about what the big questions are that might elicit our interest. They'll change anyway, and some of them might even be answered—and other never will, by the way, like the one about 'the nature of infinity', because the question itself is nuncupatory.

Maybe—no, make that 'definitely'—it's just the Absurdist in me talking, but if the love of being alive isn't enough of a reason to stay alive, then anything else won't cut it either.

:-D

Edited by till, 03 February 2010 - 05:49 AM.


#14 JJN

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 05:04 PM

At a basic level, we live because we "care about our persons". We're constructed to do so. We all have basic drives that involve safety, aggression, and jealousy. Safety, from the elements, personal harm, and so on. Aggression, to get out of bed each day and go about getting basic needs, and pursuing our interests. Jealousy, to keep and protect what is ours. Some add reproductive drive to these items of basic drives, but some don't.

Sometimes I love life, sometimes I hate it. But I always see in me the basic drives.

What always seems to be a constant, through life's trevails and glee, is a basic "care about my person". Sickness and accidents are insults to my person. Death is the most insulting of all to my person.

At a higher level, that I would add to the list, at times of loving life would be simply "having moments of discovery".

#15 brokenportal

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 05:23 PM

The big 8, to know:

- the nature of "infinity"
- if there is a god, gods, no god, or something else
- how we got here
- how the universe got here
- what all else is out there like hover ability, light speed, aliens, populated galaxies, dimensions etc..
- all forms and extents of all pleasures current and undiscovered.
- the fulfillment of all goals that time brings you to want, restaurant owner, pro football, climbing mountains etc..
- universal elimination of fallacy


Well, yes, I suppose...though I can think of questions that would interest me far more, like what is the nature of love, or what can we do to ensure that humankind does survive and stuff like that...


Those are some more good goals. They are part of this. This list isnt built to try to be some of the questions exactly, its built to try to encompass them all. Those two are part of the goals of the 8. Of course though, this list may not be in the right order, they may not all be there, some of them may need to change, but this is from what I can see pretty close if not all of what it is.

Still, in the end, for me personally, there's only one good reason: As long as you're alive you can always die, but when you're dead that's it. (At least this is what the evidence suggests.) So, why die? Seems rather silly to me. No more lovely women to look at. No more laughter. No more tears. No more stories to read or tell. No more beautiful vistas to behold. No more dreams. What a awful, dismal prospect.

Yes, or in other words, none of these 8 to pursue.

Seriously, I don't much care or think about what the big questions are that might elicit our interest. They'll change anyway, and some of them might even be answered—and other never will, by the way, like the one about 'the nature of infinity', because the question itself is nuncupatory.

Are you sure? Now, Im not saying your wrong, but are you sure you wouldnt want those things? I could be wrong I know, but it seems to me from what I can see that its pretty likely that nobody could deny that they want these things if they thought about it and or were critically questioned about it. Im more than ready to admit if we find thats wrong though.

Maybe—no, make that 'definitely'—it's just the Absurdist in me talking, but if the love of being alive isn't enough of a reason to stay alive, then anything else won't cut it either.


Well, again, I could be wrong, but, I mean, I know what you mean, you need to love things, but you also need things to love. For example, if you were born in a cave, and you had no notion of the outside world, and you thought that dark bleak existence was normal, Im sure you could find some things to love in there for a period of time, but Im not sure that a person could find it worth it for an indefinite lifetime with out there being a lot of big things with constructive purposes to pursue.

#16 brokenportal

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Posted 05 February 2010 - 06:01 PM

At a basic level, we live because we "care about our persons". We're constructed to do so. We all have basic drives that involve safety, aggression, and jealousy. Safety, from the elements, personal harm, and so on. Aggression, to get out of bed each day and go about getting basic needs, and pursuing our interests. Jealousy, to keep and protect what is ours. Some add reproductive drive to these items of basic drives, but some don't.

Sometimes I love life, sometimes I hate it. But I always see in me the basic drives.

What always seems to be a constant, through life's trevails and glee, is a basic "care about my person". Sickness and accidents are insults to my person. Death is the most insulting of all to my person.

At a higher level, that I would add to the list, at times of loving life would be simply "having moments of discovery".



Thats another good thing to want that fits in the list of goals on line 7 there. We all have basic drives yes. Im not sure if everybody else agrees, but it seems to me that Maslows Hierarchy of needs sums that angle on it up pretty well.
Posted Image

It seems that sometimes so many people are so busy trying to keep the needs in the bottom parts of the pyramid going that they are never able to focus on moving on or setting sights on the big 8. The big 8 is more like that whole pyramid, from the very top, to the very bottom.

#17 till

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Posted 07 February 2010 - 03:58 AM

Im not sure that a person could find it worth it for an indefinite lifetime with out there being a lot of big things with constructive purposes to pursue.


Actually, that's an excellent question, which may or may not have an across-the-board answer. Basically, what you're asking is whether the drive to stay alive can be sustained without the existence or the support of what you might call 'big questions' lurking somewhere. Is it enough, in other words, to stay 'alive' indefinitely merely because one just loves living? Or, to rephrase it again—just to cover my bases—are big questions actually more meaningful and important in a long-life promoting way than more immediate-scale ones?

P.S. (added later) The desire to pursue "big things with constructive purpose" has, as history appears to demonstrate at nauseam, has directly and indirectly caused more suffering than it's ever done anybody any good. Good things are done step by step, one person at a time. Actually saving one life instead of just thinking about, or even planning to, save thousands. That kind of thing. Eternity also can only be approached step by step: one after the other, again and again and again... Forever.

Edited by till, 07 February 2010 - 07:05 AM.


#18 brokenportal

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Posted 08 February 2010 - 04:10 AM

Im not sure that a person could find it worth it for an indefinite lifetime with out there being a lot of big things with constructive purposes to pursue.


Actually, that's an excellent question, which may or may not have an across-the-board answer. Basically, what you're asking is whether the drive to stay alive can be sustained without the existence or the support of what you might call 'big questions' lurking somewhere. Is it enough, in other words, to stay 'alive' indefinitely merely because one just loves living? Or, to rephrase it again—just to cover my bases—are big questions actually more meaningful and important in a long-life promoting way than more immediate-scale ones?


I suppose that many people could maintain the desire to live indefinite lives even if they didnt pursue the big things there are to know. We still have to illuminate the whole package though. We still have to use the whole stage. More people are going to fight harder for more. If life is a cave, every time a cave corridor opens up in the wall then most non fallacy plagued free thinkers are going to go through it.

You pose the contemplation as to wether the big questions are more meaningful than the everyday ones. The everyday ones are part of the big questions. Im not sure that big 8 is accurate enough. The concept is still looking for a name really. Its more like, a summary of every puzzle peice to the thee big picture in existence. Its not about having them persay, its about having the doors open to them. If somebody wants to play ping pong for 50,000 years then maybe that could be a blast. I think people as a whole on the average fight harder for the big 8 than they do for two or three cave corridors that they never contemplate getting outside of.

P.S. (added later) The desire to pursue "big things with constructive purpose" has, as history appears to demonstrate at nauseam, has directly and indirectly caused more suffering than it's ever done anybody any good. Good things are done step by step, one person at a time. Actually saving one life instead of just thinking about, or even planning to, save thousands. That kind of thing. Eternity also can only be approached step by step: one after the other, again and again and again... Forever.


Well Im glad your agree with the way a lot of us do it then, because thats how we do it. You set the goals and then you move in that direction, one awesome, fun, fullfilling, interesting, sometimes mind blowing, some times a lot of different things, step at a time. There are roadblocks in most every voyage, but thats alright, we'll continue to see what we can do to work to overcome more and more of them.

Edited by brokenportal, 08 February 2010 - 04:34 AM.


#19 till

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 02:05 AM

P.S. (added later) The desire to pursue "big things with constructive purpose" has, as history appears to demonstrate at nauseam, has directly and indirectly caused more suffering than it's ever done anybody any good. Good things are done step by step, one person at a time. Actually saving one life instead of just thinking about, or even planning to, save thousands. That kind of thing. Eternity also can only be approached step by step: one after the other, again and again and again... Forever.


Well Im glad your agree with the way a lot of us do it then...


"Agree"?
<LOL>
I've been saying this for so long that I forgot when I first uttered it. Probably well over a decade before Imminst was even thought of and most of you were still in diapers.

Live in the now and for the future.

#20 brokenportal

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Posted 14 February 2010 - 02:29 AM

The point doesnt really have much to do with who thought it up. Its more of a general concept, that been around in the minds of thinkers, probably since the beginning of human thought.

What Im concerned about is getting this out there in a more cohesive, wide spread way so we can decide how best to help people live with these things in mind.

Im reminded of a scenerio involving some gold fish I used to have. We had some turtles and I bought about 10 gold fish for them to eat. I put them all in a small pint sized tank while I got the big tank ready. I dug the big tank out and got it filled with water a few days later, and then lowered the small tank with the gold fish in it down inside. The gold fish stayed inside the small tank for about a week before they finally realized that they could swim up out the top and into the big tank. The big 8 is like that big tank and people are like those gold fish. We have to figure out a way to get them to see that there is more up and outside beyond the small tank, and once they do, I suspect that many, if not most of them will swim out.

#21 till

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Posted 18 February 2010 - 05:27 AM

[..]We have to figure out a way to get them to see that there is more up and outside beyond the small tank, and once they do, I suspect that many, if not most of them will swim out.


I doubt it. One of the great ironies of that great irony-factory called 'life' is that 'change' is the only constant in life. Yet people, despite their assertions to the contrary, are afraid of change almost as much as they are of dying. (Real change that is; not some piddling little adjustment.)

I would like to point you to Kafka's parable Before the Law, which provides an excellent metaphor for the phenomenon.

Still, to quote one variation of your favorite phrase, "I could be wrong". :)

#22 brokenportal

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Posted 14 March 2010 - 07:23 PM

I recently saw a life extensionist writing about how they arent sure if indefinite life extension would even be valuable, or worth it.

Which is more valuable? Having the chance to know the nature of existence, or any of these 8, or any of the things with in the 8, or obliteration? One can cause incredible amazement, and the other causes nothing.

Till, as to that parable, the guy didnt go through that gate because he didnt think he could, just like the fish didnt swim up and out because they didnt think they could, and this is just like how a lot of people at this time dont join the indefinite life extension cause, because they dont think they can. They think that aging is a magical impenetrable barrier, just like the others in the other two examples.

There are a variety of things we work to do to prompt or entice or motivate people to go through the gate, swim up, to join the cause.

#23 bacopa

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 11:01 AM

Yes this seems to be the consensus, at least from what I can tell. People assume aging can't be defeated; they think it's laughable to try. And those that do think it can be fixed, don't think it will in their lifetime.

Without a long enough lifespan people tend to give up on their lives and settle to just do the necessary things to survive. If everyone knew they could live another 20, 50, 1000 years to indefinite time spans, then wouldn't that motivate a good ton of people.

Even the ones that persisted on being blase about it could get motivated, eventually, with enough time.

But I think indefinite life spans scare a lot of people, but, that is assuming we have the same meat brains we have now, - and even if we do for a while, - there will still be tons of amazing cognitive/mood enhancing drugs and supplements that will make our lives much more pleasurable.

Edited by dfowler, 15 March 2010 - 11:03 AM.


#24 Shannon Vyff

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Posted 15 March 2010 - 10:18 PM

1. Giving back to one's friends, family and community (being needed)
2. Being acknowledged by one's friends, family and community (being loved & appreciated)
3. Continually educating ourselves about the limits of science
4. Supporting education for others & spreading awareness of what we've learned
5. Learning about others, meeting others through one's community and traveling
6. Developing empathy, personal philosophy and the golden rule (self reflection)
7. Taking care of ourselves physically as we are able, so we can live longer-give back more & enjoy more life
8. End suffering in the Universe or Universes if someday able

These are my big 8 :-D

#25 brokenportal

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Posted 21 March 2010 - 09:50 PM

Thats a good list, but they are all a part of the "big 8". The big 8 is designed to try to cover everything that people could want.

Part of the reason for it is that it seems that some people litterally run out of things to want. It seems to me that if we can get more people to look at all the things they could have, to think about the big picture about what it means to exist, that we may be able to entice more people to want indefinite life extension.

I correlate this with what Viktor Frankl calls LogoTherapy and people like the Japanese call Ikigai. Its the notion that people that have a lot of big things in mind for what they want to live for tend to strive to surive longer. For example the Japanese associated with Ikigai tend to be of the supercentarian segments of their population they are known for in the anti aging circles around here. In his book "Mans Search for Meaning" Viktor Frankl goes over his experience in an Auschwitz concentration camp during WW11, outlining how those that tended to live through the camp, even though they were as sickly, or more sickly than those around them, tended to be the ones that had more things they wanted to get back to, like a book they were writing, a spouse they loved deeply, some research they were doing, etc..

It seems, now of course I could be wrong, that people who open themselves up more to the big 8, are more likely to fight for indefinite life extension. The big 8 is more like a concise picture, the big picture with all the puzzle pieces there to see and take in all at once. To be able to better gauge the magnitude and gravity and scope of what it means to exist, the opportunities that existence imbues humanity with.

#26 till

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 09:44 AM

1. Giving back to one's friends, family and community (being needed)
2. Being acknowledged by one's friends, family and community (being loved & appreciated)
3. Continually educating ourselves about the limits of science
4. Supporting education for others & spreading awareness of what we've learned
5. Learning about others, meeting others through one's community and traveling
6. Developing empathy, personal philosophy and the golden rule (self reflection)
7. Taking care of ourselves physically as we are able, so we can live longer-give back more & enjoy more life
8. End suffering in the Universe or Universes if someday able

These are my big 8 ;)


I like them. A lot. Building the future through actions, one's own and those of others; which is the only way to build it.

#27 N.T.M.

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 09:21 AM

I'm fiercely solipsistic in my philosophical view of consciousness.


My greatest reason would be the pursuit of true wisdom. The pertinence of the quote is that it seems like whenever I speculate about philosophical concepts I somehow invariably arrive at a conclusion that reflects solipsism more or less. It seems that everything is somehow tied to this.

#28 brokenportal

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 07:04 PM

I'm fiercely solipsistic in my philosophical view of consciousness.


My greatest reason would be the pursuit of true wisdom. The pertinence of the quote is that it seems like whenever I speculate about philosophical concepts I somehow invariably arrive at a conclusion that reflects solipsism more or less. It seems that everything is somehow tied to this.



This is just a summary of everything you could possibly want as a logically thinking being, at least thats what it strives for. So far in the few years Ive been thinking about it and discussing it, it seems to be holding up pretty well.

Shannons list is a list of sub sets with in this list, as well as pursuit of wisdom. Pursuit of wisdom, I considered naming "universal elimination of fallacy" something like that, but it seems that it leaves a little to much ambiguity in what that piece of the 8 is getting at. But over all, I agree, pursuit of wisdom, that is a part of the big 8 too.


The big 8, to know:

- *the nature of existence, ie infinity, conciousness, particle phyisics, etc..
- if there is a god, gods, no god, or something else
- how we got here
- how the universe got here
- what all else is out there like hover ability, light speed, aliens, populated galaxies, dimensions etc..
- all forms and extents of all pleasures current and undiscovered.
- the fulfillment of all goals that time brings you to want, restaurant owner, pro football, climbing mountains etc..
- universal elimination of fallacy

* modified via discussion



#29 N.T.M.

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 08:05 AM

But over all, I agree, pursuit of wisdom, that is a part of the big 8 too.


So succinct, yet containing a million different facets. How intriguing.

Edited by N.T.M., 10 April 2010 - 08:06 AM.

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#30 brokenportal

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 02:39 AM

But over all, I agree, pursuit of wisdom, that is a part of the big 8 too.


So succinct, yet containing a million different facets. How intriguing.



Ive also considered that the entire list is really just an extrapolation of the one main point, "to know". It seems like, "to know" or "pursuit of wisdom" does sum it up, however they dont go far enough. If we dont take it further and sum up everything there is to know, it seems it leaves to much room for people to imagine to many things, and in most cases, not nearly enough things. I know many of us do, but I also find that many many more people of the world in general can be hard pressed to think of many things that they might want to do. "I want to be loved, and play basket ball, and dabble with boating, build on to my house. I like to read about philosophy and watch the discovery channel from time to time." Ok, great, theres nothing wrong with things like that, but there is so, so, so much more to life than that. If we dont think in, if we never think in terms of the big picture, then it can be hard, if not inherently impossible to live in terms of the big picture. Whether living in terms of the big picture is good or not is up for debate, but I think it is. I think its essential, and a crucial part of gaining enough drive to be sure to sustain oneself on through to any potential victory there may be for the movement for indefinite life extension.





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