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[nowayout]

Low Testosterone, Early Death?
Higher Death Risk in Men With Lower Testosterone Levels By Daniel J. DeNoon
WebMD Health News Reviewed by Louise Chang, MD Nov. 27, 2007 -- The lower a man's testosterone level, the higher his risk of death -- especially death from heart disease.

The finding comes from a study of British men aged 40 to 79 by University of Cambridge gerontologist Kay-Tee Khaw, MBBCh, and colleagues.

"The men with lower testosterone levels had an increased risk of dying from any cause, but most particularly of cardiovascular disease," Khaw tells WebMD. "We looked at cancer, too, and found no evidence of a link to cancer with higher testosterone levels."

Nearly 12,000 men enrolled in the long-term study from 1993 to 1997. More than 800 of the men died by 2003; Khaw compared these men's testosterone levels to those of some 1,500 living study participants.

After adjusting for factors that might affect risk of death -- including age, weight, smoking, alcohol use, high blood pressure, diabetes, physical activity, education, and social class -- the link between low testosterone and earlier death remained.

Compared to men with the lowest quartile (25%) of testosterone levels:

• Men in the second lowest quartile were 25% less likely to die.
• Men in the second highest quartile were 38% less likely to die.
• Men in the highest quartile were 41% less likely to die.

"We found that low testosterone predicts early mortality in men over the next 10 years or so," Khaw says. "But we think this finding needs to be replicated. We would like others to look at this in other populations of men and see if they get the same results."

The findings make sense to Robert Davis, MD, professor of urology at the University of Rochester, N.Y. Davis says low testosterone is common among men with metabolic syndrome -- a constellation of risk factors including abdominal fat, high blood sugar, high blood pressure, low HDL cholesterol, and high blood-fat levels.

"Certainly I'm not surprised at this finding. It's been shown that low testosterone correlates with metabolic syndrome, which is related to diseases like diabetes, heart disease, and vascular disease," Davis tells WebMD. "The need to check testosterone levels in people with metabolic syndrome is being recognized more and more among physicians."


Testosterone Therapy: Studies Needed
Low testosterone may be bad, but it is not clear that testosterone replacement therapy corrects this problem. Only clinical trials can prove whether testosterone supplementation can lower the risk of death linked to low testosterone levels. Ironically, researchers have been reluctant to test testosterone replacement in clinical trials because of worries that the treatment may increase men's risk of prostate cancer.

"Our study may provide some reassurance of those planning trials of testosterone supplementation," Khaw says. "The irony is that while a lot of men believe testosterone supplements may be good for their health, those trials have not been done because of ethical concerns of testosterone causing prostate cancer."

Davis worries that doctors are too wary of prescribing testosterone supplements for men with too-low testosterone levels.

"It is a very underdiagnosed and undertreated problem," he says. "One of the myths is that androgen supplementation will cause a cancer. We know that prostate cancer often regresses when androgen is removed, but there is very little evidence that supplementing to normal levels increases risk of cancer, and some evidence it may lower it."

Khaw and colleagues report their findings in the Dec. 4 issue of the journal Circulation.

[DukeNukem]

I've been supplementing with testosterone for 8 years (I'm 48 yrs old). I'm pretty sure it's one of the many key contributors to my outstanding health, fitness, and well-being.

I've said this many times: I predict within ten years, practically all enlightened men over 40 will supplement with testosterone.

[Luna]

Just like Estrogen and women!

You know, I always wonder why they don't want to give women estrogen replacement once production stops.
They say Estrogen increases breast cancer risk, but it's the same risk we always have when we are in our natural estrogen producing years! Some are even happy to say "It is good for women to get to that stage EARLIER", ignoring all the bone thinning and heart problems, mood, hot flashes and all else which comes with it.. what!!

[nowayout]

Just like Estrogen and women!

You know, I always wonder why they don't want to give women estrogen replacement once production stops.
They say Estrogen increases breast cancer risk, but it's the same risk we always have when we are in our natural estrogen producing years! Some are even happy to say "It is good for women to get to that stage EARLIER", ignoring all the bone thinning and heart problems, mood, hot flashes and all else which comes with it.. what!!

Agreed. My mother is on HRT and is in excellent health. Her sister is not and is very frail in comparison, with lots of problems from bone loss.

[VidX]

I'm pretty sure that it will become mainstream/basic "supplement" in near future. Though while in males there's basically no evidence that test causes prostate cancer, seems there are evidence (too lazy to search for that study.. wikipedia would provide some info) that estrogens supplementation may increase breast cancer risk..

BTW - prostate cancer remains a "secret", in terms of what causes it. My theory (a shot in the dark/complete speculation): as males get that cancer exactly when they are LOW in test, not vice versa, I speculate that it may be related to lowered sex drive, so less (much less) ejaculations and the result is a sperm that "stays" there too long and becomes cancerogenous over time. So such a chronic lack of "reloading" may cause the pathology in the tissue that surounds it.

Edited by VidX, 02 March 2010 - 09:28 PM.

[GoodFellas]

I'm pretty sure that it will become mainstream/basic "supplement" in near future. Though while in males there's basically no evidence that test causes prostate cancer, seems there are evidence (too lazy to search for that study.. wikipedia would provide some info) that estrogens supplementation may increase breast cancer risk..

BTW - prostate cancer remains a "secret", in terms of what causes it. My theory (a shot in the dark/complete speculation): as males get that cancer exactly when they are LOW in test, not vice versa, I speculate that it may be related to lowered sex drive, so less (much less) ejaculations and the result is a sperm that "stays" there too long and becomes cancerogenous over time. So such a chronic lack of "reloading" may cause the pathology in the tissue that surounds it.

I disagree here. Males of african orgin are those that are most likely to get prostate cancer. Black men are also those that has the highest testosterone among males. Therefore, it is probably true that prostate cancer = high testosterone. But on the other hand high testosterone would give a lot of other benefits.

[Dorho]

I'm pretty sure that it will become mainstream/basic "supplement" in near future. Though while in males there's basically no evidence that test causes prostate cancer, seems there are evidence (too lazy to search for that study.. wikipedia would provide some info) that estrogens supplementation may increase breast cancer risk..

BTW - prostate cancer remains a "secret", in terms of what causes it. My theory (a shot in the dark/complete speculation): as males get that cancer exactly when they are LOW in test, not vice versa, I speculate that it may be related to lowered sex drive, so less (much less) ejaculations and the result is a sperm that "stays" there too long and becomes cancerogenous over time. So such a chronic lack of "reloading" may cause the pathology in the tissue that surounds it.

I disagree here. Males of african orgin are those that are most likely to get prostate cancer. Black men are also those that has the highest testosterone among males. Therefore, it is probably true that prostate cancer = high testosterone. But on the other hand high testosterone would give a lot of other benefits.

If I recall correctly, on average young males of African origin have the highest levels of DHT and testosterone and young males of East-Asian origin have lowest levels of DHT of different races. Old East-Asian men on the other hand have the highest average levels of testosterone of all races when compared to other seniors, if memory serves me correct.

Edited by Dorho, 04 March 2010 - 11:58 AM.

[NDM]

If low testosterone = early death, and if melatonin supplementing = lowering of testosterone, then how does one explain the set of studies that suggest that melatonin supplementing is great for improved immunity in old age?

Or is it the case that the improvement contributed by melatonin exceeds the damage it causes (via lowered testosterone)? But if so, then just what is that powerful mechanism through which melatonin supplementing works to such extent that it more than compensates for the collateral damage induced via lowered testosterone?

[senseix]

I've been supplementing with testosterone for 8 years (I'm 48 yrs old). I'm pretty sure it's one of the many key contributors to my outstanding health, fitness, and well-being.

I've said this many times: I predict within ten years, practically all enlightened men over 40 will supplement with testosterone.

What are you using specifically in regards to the brand and dosage of Testosterone?

[Mind]

I am interested if anyone knows of any recent studies regarding hormone supplementation in general. I am aware of the potential breast cancer risk with estrogen but I am unaware of any major studies linking cancer risk to HGH or Test.

For years I have been hearing (from various expert sources and government agencies) that hormone supplementation is going to cause cancer and perhaps many other terrible things, yet as the years go by, and tens of thousands of people (probably hundreds of thousands), continue to take hormones, I have not seen anything being reported in this regard.

I have always reasoned that in order for the human body to "feel" young and "act" young that it will need the hormones (major signaling mechanisms) that it had when it was young. Now there are certainly speculative biotech methods that will be able to repair cells, organs, and the body, without re-setting hormones to their youthful levels, but this seems to be quite a few years into the future. For now, it seems that hormone therapy is one of the more promising ways to stay "youthful", as long as no data comes in to indicate higher disease or fatality rates among hormone users.

[tunt01]

I am interested if anyone knows of any recent studies regarding hormone supplementation in general. I am aware of the potential breast cancer risk with estrogen but I am unaware of any major studies linking cancer risk to HGH or Test.

For years I have been hearing (from various expert sources and government agencies) that hormone supplementation is going to cause cancer and perhaps many other terrible things, yet as the years go by, and tens of thousands of people (probably hundreds of thousands), continue to take hormones, I have not seen anything being reported in this regard.

I have always reasoned that in order for the human body to "feel" young and "act" young that it will need the hormones (major signaling mechanisms) that it had when it was young. Now there are certainly speculative biotech methods that will be able to repair cells, organs, and the body, without re-setting hormones to their youthful levels, but this seems to be quite a few years into the future. For now, it seems that hormone therapy is one of the more promising ways to stay "youthful", as long as no data comes in to indicate higher disease or fatality rates among hormone users.

your question is good timing

http://www.eurekaler...s-htt022510.php

"This is the first population-based study to show an association of higher IGF-I levels with increased risk of a cancer-related death in older men,"

Edited by prophets, 04 March 2010 - 06:54 PM.

[DukeNukem]

I am interested if anyone knows of any recent studies regarding hormone supplementation in general. I am aware of the potential breast cancer risk with estrogen but I am unaware of any major studies linking cancer risk to HGH or Test.

For years I have been hearing (from various expert sources and government agencies) that hormone supplementation is going to cause cancer and perhaps many other terrible things, yet as the years go by, and tens of thousands of people (probably hundreds of thousands), continue to take hormones, I have not seen anything being reported in this regard.

I have always reasoned that in order for the human body to "feel" young and "act" young that it will need the hormones (major signaling mechanisms) that it had when it was young. Now there are certainly speculative biotech methods that will be able to repair cells, organs, and the body, without re-setting hormones to their youthful levels, but this seems to be quite a few years into the future. For now, it seems that hormone therapy is one of the more promising ways to stay "youthful", as long as no data comes in to indicate higher disease or fatality rates among hormone users.

your question is good timing

http://www.eurekaler...s-htt022510.php

"This is the first population-based study to show an association of higher IGF-I levels with increased risk of a cancer-related death in older men,"

I do not recommend taking human growth hormone for this very reason.

[Shepard]

Fitting. I'm about to fly out to the Arnold, where test is passed around like sweet, sweet candy for all the little boys (and girls) to enjoy.

Edited by Shepard, 04 March 2010 - 08:26 PM.

[Logan]

I wonder if things like Forskolin and Cordyceps, and possibly Ginger, would be good ways to naturally boost testosterone?

And then there is this product:

http://www.primordia...stosterone.html

Any thoughts?

Edited by morganator, 04 March 2010 - 09:16 PM.

[Mind]

I am interested if anyone knows of any recent studies regarding hormone supplementation in general. I am aware of the potential breast cancer risk with estrogen but I am unaware of any major studies linking cancer risk to HGH or Test.

For years I have been hearing (from various expert sources and government agencies) that hormone supplementation is going to cause cancer and perhaps many other terrible things, yet as the years go by, and tens of thousands of people (probably hundreds of thousands), continue to take hormones, I have not seen anything being reported in this regard.

I have always reasoned that in order for the human body to "feel" young and "act" young that it will need the hormones (major signaling mechanisms) that it had when it was young. Now there are certainly speculative biotech methods that will be able to repair cells, organs, and the body, without re-setting hormones to their youthful levels, but this seems to be quite a few years into the future. For now, it seems that hormone therapy is one of the more promising ways to stay "youthful", as long as no data comes in to indicate higher disease or fatality rates among hormone users.

your question is good timing

http://www.eurekaler...s-htt022510.php

"This is the first population-based study to show an association of higher IGF-I levels with increased risk of a cancer-related death in older men,"

Just wondering, does anyone around here supplement IGF-1?

[kismet]

The findings make sense to Robert Davis, MD, professor of urology at the University of Rochester, N.Y. Davis says low testosterone is common among men with metabolic syndrome -- a constellation of risk factors including abdominal fat, high blood sugar, high blood pressure, low HDL cholesterol, and high blood-fat levels.

 "Certainly I'm not surprised at this finding. It's been shown that low testosterone correlates with metabolic syndrome, which is related to diseases like diabetes, heart disease, and vascular disease," Davis tells WebMD. "The need to check testosterone levels in people with metabolic syndrome is being recognized more and more among physicians."

The researchers themselves speculate that it may be reverse-causation. I really wouldn't bet my life and health on that sort of evidence. Female HRT should have taught us a lesson. Similarly, low total c. predicts mortality, but only a fringe minority tries to increase their TC on purpose. Why wouldn't the same precautionary principle apply to testosterone ("supplementation")?
I think there is quite contrary animal evidence anyway. So why would anyone take that risk again?

I'd love to read up on the (animal) evidence, because the topic comes up every now and again (see for instance one of those post).

Biology is not as easy as one would like.

Edited by kismet, 04 March 2010 - 10:06 PM.

[tunt01]

Just wondering, does anyone around here supplement IGF-1?

you might want to repeat this question in the "smoking is good for you" thread.

Edited by prophets, 04 March 2010 - 09:56 PM.

[Mind]

Just wondering, does anyone around here supplement IGF-1?

you might want to repeat this question in the "smoking is good for you" thread.

You mentioned IGF-1, but I have never heard of anyone supplementing with IGF-1 before.

[zorba990]

I've been supplementing with testosterone for 8 years (I'm 48 yrs old). I'm pretty sure it's one of the many key contributors to my outstanding health, fitness, and well-being.

I've said this many times: I predict within ten years, practically all enlightened men over 40 will supplement with testosterone.

What about down regulation of your own production?
(Admittedly I'm anti-hormone supplementation - more interested in trying
to produce more my own through weight training or basic nutritional optimization)

Maybe copulins? Ginger? mico-electric stim of um producing area?

[VidX]

I've said thsi earlier, and I'll repeat (regarding testosterone): it's anecdotical, but every information can be of some value. I've been following bodybuilding scene for many years, and testosterone and it's derivatives is one of the widest used hormones, legally and illegally. Plenty of athletes (mostly bodybuidlers, so in way bigger doese then one would use for a HRT) used these for decades, 20-30 years + and many are still using, and I hardly can find some (if any) cases of some kind of cancer in these guys, and again we are taliing about hundreds of athletes who used and often abused hormones (in combination with other stuff).
That's probably why link between test and any cancer is so unclear till this day (maybe there's just NO or very little and in specific cases)..

As for GH and IGF, well wait for the next 10 years (these who can) and the unofficial situation will be more or less clear. GH has been used (mostly - abused, because it's SO great mass builder) for basically two decades already in supraphysiological doses, let's just see how a long line of guys that are known to use/used these peptides will turn out. (as obviously - we don't have any official long term study going and won't have anytime soon)

Edited by VidX, 04 March 2010 - 10:21 PM.

[Logan]

I've been supplementing with testosterone for 8 years (I'm 48 yrs old). I'm pretty sure it's one of the many key contributors to my outstanding health, fitness, and well-being.

I've said this many times: I predict within ten years, practically all enlightened men over 40 will supplement with testosterone.

What about down regulation of your own production?
(Admittedly I'm anti-hormone supplementation - more interested in trying
to produce more my own through weight training or basic nutritional optimization)

Maybe copulins? Ginger? mico-electric stim of um producing area?

How about Tribulus Terrestris

[DukeNukem]

Just wondering, does anyone around here supplement IGF-1?

you might want to repeat this question in the "smoking is good for you" thread.

You mentioned IGF-1, but I have never heard of anyone supplementing with IGF-1 before.

No one supplements with IGF-1 -- they use hGH instead, which raises IGF-1.

[VidX]

This^^. Unless it's used for site specific growth (probably only substance that can accomplish this goal) in bb'ing world.

[nowayout]

The researchers themselves speculate that it may be reverse-causation. I really wouldn't bet my life and health on that sort of evidence. Female HRT should have taught us a lesson.

There is already a substantial body of evidence from decades of male HRT.

From http://www.news.harv...stosterone.html

A retrospective analysis by researchers at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center (BIDMC) published in The New England Journal of Medicine found no causal relationship between testosterone replacement and prostate cancer or heart disease risk "We reviewed decades of research and found no compelling evidence that testosterone replacement therapy increases the incidence of prostate cancer or cardiovascular disease," said Abraham Morgentaler, a urologist at BIDMC and associate clinical professor at Harvard Medical School. "Although it would be helpful to have data from long-term, large-scale studies, it must also be recognized that there already exists a substantial body of research on the effects of testosterone in men."

See http://content.nejm..../full/350/5/482

Risks of Testosterone-Replacement Therapy and Recommendations for Monitoring

Ernani Luis Rhoden, M.D., and Abraham Morgentaler, M.D.

Edited by viveutvivas, 08 March 2010 - 07:40 PM.

[kismet]

That's great, although, retrospective? Are those the "decades of research"? Certainly a good starting point, but there was considerable *prospective* evidence for the safety of female HRT and it still turned out that way. Assuming that is true, we have to ask, what's the benefit? They didn't find harm, did they find any benefits? If not, then it's probably a good life style drug, but still does not justify the thread title.

Or do they mean retrospective in the sense of "reviewing old evidence"?

Edited by kismet, 08 March 2010 - 09:11 PM.

[joe57777]

I've said thsi earlier, and I'll repeat (regarding testosterone): it's anecdotical, but every information can be of some value. I've been following bodybuilding scene for many years, and testosterone and it's derivatives is one of the widest used hormones, legally and illegally. Plenty of athletes (mostly bodybuidlers, so in way bigger doese then one would use for a HRT) used these for decades, 20-30 years + and many are still using, and I hardly can find some (if any) cases of some kind of cancer in these guys, and again we are taliing about hundreds of athletes who used and often abused hormones (in combination with other stuff).
That's probably why link between test and any cancer is so unclear till this day (maybe there's just NO or very little and in specific cases)..

As for GH and IGF, well wait for the next 10 years (these who can) and the unofficial situation will be more or less clear. GH has been used (mostly - abused, because it's SO great mass builder) for basically two decades already in supraphysiological doses, let's just see how a long line of guys that are known to use/used these peptides will turn out. (as obviously - we don't have any official long term study going and won't have anytime soon)

I am a 52 yr old male. I am trying to decide what direction to go in regarding HRT. I am trying to sift through all of the information I can gather on the subject. You mentioned that athletes have been supplementing with HGH and Testosterone for years with no known cancer risks. However, how many athletes over 52 yrs old are actively playing in professional sports today that are using HGH and or Testosterone? See my point? Please don't get me wrong, I want to see your point. However, you are talking about athletes in their 20's, 30's, and at most in their very early 40's. Therefore, where is your data for men over 52 using HGH or Testosterone and their risk for cancer?

Also, I have read articles on a different approach to raising free Testosterone levels without taking extra Testosterone. Instead, there is a way to block estrogen production in males that actual is suppose to raise free Testosterone levels. I have included this link here to this theory. What does anyone think of this approach?

http://www.prostate9.....0Aging LE.htm

Also, HGH is expensive. Is there any other way to get HGH into your system (effectively) besides injections? Also, would you use both HGH and Testosterone (or an estrogen lowering supplement) at the same time? Also, what about at the same time taking Resveratrol or SRT-501, Polydatin, Quercetin, vitamin D3, an iron controlling supplement like magnesium chloride, and finally flax seed oil? Any suggestions for a male over 52 to feel and look younger with more muscle mass and lower body fat, and a higher labido to keep up with younger women. I do get regular exercise. Can anyone please point me in the right direction?

Edited by joe57777, 09 March 2010 - 03:01 PM.

[VidX]

Well I was referring mainly to bodybuilders as they are one of the biggest users of these and other substances. And yes - plenty of professional and amateurs still use, even if they are over 50. You can find plenty of people like this in mainstream bodybuilding web sites, you may ask some questions about their personal experiences.
On the other hand, you may start here, if you don't know any better at the moment, regarding information/knowledge: http://www.musculard...nhancement.html

I don't say it's risk free, I say that from MY PERSONAL observations - it's far from that risk that sometimes may be propagated in the media or by people who doesn't know much. And as we see what's the situation with studies regarding this, I suppose it's a personal decision for each person, but it better be the one based on knowledge and responsibility, as there's is some things to know, what to watch for, etc...

[Logan]

I've said thsi earlier, and I'll repeat (regarding testosterone): it's anecdotical, but every information can be of some value. I've been following bodybuilding scene for many years, and testosterone and it's derivatives is one of the widest used hormones, legally and illegally. Plenty of athletes (mostly bodybuidlers, so in way bigger doese then one would use for a HRT) used these for decades, 20-30 years + and many are still using, and I hardly can find some (if any) cases of some kind of cancer in these guys, and again we are taliing about hundreds of athletes who used and often abused hormones (in combination with other stuff).
That's probably why link between test and any cancer is so unclear till this day (maybe there's just NO or very little and in specific cases)..

As for GH and IGF, well wait for the next 10 years (these who can) and the unofficial situation will be more or less clear. GH has been used (mostly - abused, because it's SO great mass builder) for basically two decades already in supraphysiological doses, let's just see how a long line of guys that are known to use/used these peptides will turn out. (as obviously - we don't have any official long term study going and won't have anytime soon)

I am a 52 yr old male. I am trying to decide what direction to go in regarding HRT. I am trying to sift through all of the information I can gather on the subject. You mentioned that athletes have been supplementing with HGH and Testosterone for years with no known cancer risks. However, how many athletes over 52 yrs old are actively playing in professional sports today that are using HGH and or Testosterone? See my point? Please don't get me wrong, I want to see your point. However, you are talking about athletes in their 20's, 30's, and at most in their very early 40's. Therefore, where is your data for men over 52 using HGH or Testosterone and their risk for cancer?

Also, I have read articles on a different approach to raising free Testosterone levels without taking extra Testosterone. Instead, there is a way to block estrogen production in males that actual is suppose to raise free Testosterone levels. I have included this link here to this theory. What does anyone think of this approach?

http://www.prostate9.....0Aging LE.htm

Also, HGH is expensive. Is there any other way to get HGH into your system (effectively) besides injections? Also, would you use both HGH and Testosterone (or an estrogen lowering supplement) at the same time? Also, what about at the same time taking Resveratrol or SRT-501, Polydatin, Quercetin, vitamin D3, an iron controlling supplement like magnesium chloride, and finally flax seed oil? Any suggestions for a male over 52 to feel and look younger with more muscle mass and lower body fat, and a higher labido to keep up with younger women. I do get regular exercise. Can anyone please point me in the right direction?

Flax has phytoestrogens, a lot of it may affect your estrogen levels. I recommend trying Chia seed instead.

I wouldn't mess with HGH and you will find that most people here agree that HGH therapy comes with more potential risk than HRT.

[Logan]

Believe it or not, soy isoflavones may actually boost overall testosterone levels by lowering DHT levels.

Soy isoflavones combined with cayenne pepper supplementation may help slow the progression of hair loss and promote new hair growth.

[7evilspiritsofGod]

Well I was referring mainly to bodybuilders as they are one of the biggest users of these and other substances. And yes - plenty of professional and amateurs still use, even if they are over 50. You can find plenty of people like this in mainstream bodybuilding web sites, you may ask some questions about their personal experiences.
On the other hand, you may start here, if you don't know any better at the moment, regarding information/knowledge: http://www.musculard...nhancement.html

I don't say it's risk free, I say that from MY PERSONAL observations - it's far from that risk that sometimes may be propagated in the media or by people who doesn't know much. And as we see what's the situation with studies regarding this, I suppose it's a personal decision for each person, but it better be the one based on knowledge and responsibility, as there's is some things to know, what to watch for, etc...

the truth comes from the media's lies, they all say the same bullshit, the guy was using steroids or test, and then he stopped using them and got heart disease or had heart attack, they say the steroids caused this, did you catch the lie? when he stopped using the test or roids he had problems, when he stopped using them, this is because an outside source of test tells the body it does not need to make any more test, that is a very real side effect, but if this guy had stayed on them and not overdosed then he would not have had any problems, as for the hair loss problems these would happen due to genetics at some point anyway, the excessively high doses of test is what causes the bad sides to happen, this can be avoided by rogaine, as for the bitch tits, this is due to the fact that test can be converted to estrogen in the body, when the test is not being completely used and the guy using is fairly lazy and beleive it or not does not masturbate or have enough sex the excess test gets converted to estrogen also burning off all the test currently in the blood causes a higher than usual level of estrogen remaining in the blood causing the body to simply get fixed in a state of homeostasis, in an estrogen state, this can be corrected by long term use of dht, now for the ball cancer, sorry scrotum cancer sorry hehe! prostate cancer, test, dht will not cause this cancer, it is actually caused by another chemical called antigen which bonds to the same receptors in the body as test and dht, when this happens the test builds up tumors to initially attack the antigen and if the body can't fix this problem it becomes malignant, yes this can actually happen over night, you need to get your blood checked for antigen if you have some then test of any kind is dangerous for you, but if none is found present it is safe for your especially as you get older, now for the roid rage they call it a side effect when in reality it is a sharpening of the senses and an increase in motivation as well as increased cognitive function the body is more physically real world natural instinct alpha male oriented like we would be if the environment and diets of people were proper and fulfilled, those with low test, do not heal from injuries well, and get sick as test builds the immune system too, they are more emotional and girly like, but the good part is this allows one to become more spiritual having low test, now overdose of test will cause near insanity when something does spark an emotional response that one is not ready for this is proof of the spiritual and the human condition as the body competes against the spirit, thats another topic though, lets get into the estrogen part now, if estrogen is high you will not be ripped regardless of your level of testosterone, high or low, this is because in men estrogen causes water retention, aka weight gain that is unwanted, this might not be so bad as long as it is under control, you see it also allows water to be held at the joints for lubrication and prevents cartilage wear, and dehytestosterone dht will eliminate this estrogen to minimal levels however this causes the body to function properly with less water, good if you want to get ripped, but back to the hair problem dht bonding to the receptors in the scalp is very true, it happens but dht is not the cause of hair loss including regular test, it is the fact that it dries the scalp up to the point where nutrients can no longer get to the scalp therefore it dies out, they now have supps out there that claim to fix this problem, I have not used them but I have been using dht pure dht in andractim for a year every day now, have a full head of hair, I am ripped , I weigh only 175 pounds 6 ft 1 inch and bench press 455 free weights and squat 555 free weights, remember the ones on tv and in dare classes use information out of context to fulfill their agenda's look at what the actual scientists are finding and be sure they are legitimate as those global warming scientists were paid to make those out of context claims(just an example), even like most new age religions, just a guy who knows what you want to hear, lies are pleasing to the ears right, one more thing test is amplified with hgh, but I have never used hgh, it is expensive and hard to get real hgh too, hope this helps anyones thoughts on whether they want to use test. if you want to do cycles when you come off use tongkat ali 50:1, 100:1 or 200:1 only no other extract will work, this is a fact! I use it with andractim these are the only two supps I use. the body dies because eventually it can not keep up with free radicals and cannot fully heal and nutrient absorption starts to suck ass and then certain parts of the body shut down and other parts overcompensate causing them to be over worked to the point where they no longer function, test will help live a longer healthier life span but it is not the end all solution, it just helps.