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Mother = Dead


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#61 lightowl

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Posted 07 August 2004 - 12:45 PM

I really like the living mouse cryonics thing in relations to the Methuselah Mouse Prize (MMP). If a contestant succeeded in "freezing" a mouse indefinitely and then succeeded in revived that mouse again it would certainly, in my mind, qualify as a prize winner. I have one concern though. It seems to me that winning the prize would only be a matter of how long you wait before reviving the mouse. It would seem that one of the objectives of the MMP would be achieved, but I would not be totally satisfied. It would be a marvelous feat, that is certain, but rejuvenation it is not.

I would accept a treatment that postponed aging indefinitely, or to a time when rejuvenation interventions had been created. Maybe the discovery of indefinite postponement would convince the world of immortality and spark a rejuvenation frenzy. But it is also possible that it would not. In that case the MMP would have to adjust to the situation and maybe setup something like a non-conscious and conscious prize. That would effectively force contestants to investigate "non-hibernation" interventions.

The "reversal" prize to date is limited to "late onset" interventions. In my mind that does not disqualify the cryonics solution. So, the name reversal is in effect not accurate, since it implies some kind of rejuvenation. I was thinking. Does organ transplantation qualify as reversal? It seems to me that it is close to true rejuvenation. Although only targeted at those specific organs. It may have a positive effect on total longevity.

A organ preservation prize would indeed be a good way to start innovation. I am certain there is already allot of research in that area, so many contestants would be available from the beginning.

#62 Da55id

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Posted 07 August 2004 - 07:20 PM

Hi Lightowl,

Note that you could not win the reversal prize with cryonics...only the postponement prize. Rejuvenation is the actual point/reason for reversal prize.

As I understand it mice still age while in standard hibernation.

Aubrey and I have been working hard on better defining the reversal/rejuvenation prize and we will be offering what we feel are significant improvements to the Main volunteer group for comment in the next couple of days.

If there were money for an organ preservation prize I would strongly support it. Any new prize henceforth should start out with a minimum endowment of $25,000 in cash...50k would be much much better. Sure wish I had more to give...I'd do it in a heartbeat (might end up being my own...my father and his father and their father all died of heart failure in their 50's).

dave

#63 bgwowk

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Posted 07 August 2004 - 07:25 PM

A organ preservation prize would indeed be a good way to start innovation. I am certain there is already allot of research in that area, so many contestants would be available from the beginning.


Unfortunately that is not the case. There used to be many, but now there is only one lab left in the world still working on long-term preservation of whole organs.

http://www.21cm.com

---BrianW

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#64 lightowl

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Posted 07 August 2004 - 08:53 PM

All the more reason to make a prize. I am surprised that there is not more research in that area. There seems to be no controversial ethical concerns and great demand for such technology.

As I understand it mice still age while in standard hibernation.

Yes, standard hibernation is to my knowledge still aging, but cryonics would not age the mouse, and so it would be up to the contestants to decide how long the mouse should live. Also, if the mouse was put in cryonics suspension it would not be possible to give the prize on a weekly basis, since there is no proof that the mouse is alive before it get revived.

#65 lightowl

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Posted 07 August 2004 - 09:19 PM

Any new prize henceforth should start out with a minimum endowment of $25,000 in cash...50k would be much much better.

I'll let you know when I win the lottery or get "lucky" on nasdaq ;)

I would be very happy to support such a prize, since I see it as a possible enabler for future advanced cryonics technology.

#66 ophelia

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Posted 13 August 2004 - 10:32 PM

I am very sorry to here about your Mother's passing. My Mother was murdered by a robber on July 13, 2003 - she was 46. I know somewhat of how you feel. I was in shock for about 6 months afterwards.....
Don't hesitate to email me if you need someone to talk to:
opheliawaits0@yahoo.com
It's more healing to have someone to relate to in grief.

Sincerely,
Heather

Tammy K. Jenkins Memorial Tribute

#67 Bruce Klein

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Posted 14 August 2004 - 04:42 AM

Thanks, Heather.

Life is brutal. Together we will win the fight.

Bruce

#68 mkper85260

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 05:33 AM

I didn't know about your mother, Bruce, until yesterday, even though I see now that you emailed me something 2 weeks ago that, when I finally looked at it, naturally led to my reading your posting. That's what comes from working so much on certain projects (one of them being *Physical Immortality* magazine, which has consumed so much of my time and attention in recent weeks), plus the fact that I don't visit all the Websites I could as often as I might. My deepest condolences. I don't know if it will be any comfort to you, but I am one of those who takes an optimistic view on the eventual reappearance of departed persons, based not on beliefs in the supernatural but on regarding persons as, fundamentally, informational processes that could be restarted at a later time by reestablishing the right starting conditions. You can see these ideas elaborated in my book, *Forever for All*, though admittedly it's a lot of stuff to wade through and maybe not a good place to start for grief counseling.

Anyway, I commend your decision to proceed with your immortalist goals with renewed determination, and wish the best in the endeavor.

Mike Perry

#69 Bruce Klein

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 05:24 PM

Thanks, Mike.

While I yet see anyway for the reappearance of the dead (outside of cryonics) I very much enjoyed reading "Forever for All" for its excellent historical overview of immortality and other ideas concerning living forever.

Thanks for your efforts with PI. You are saving lives.

Bruce

#70 urlgirl

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 05:20 AM

Bruce, I had no idea. I am stunned by hearing of your mother's death. Patrick and I both offer our sincere condolences. I am very, very sorry for your loss. --Maggy

#71 Bruce Klein

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 05:42 AM

Thanks, Maggy.

You're very kind.. and thanks for helping ImmInst run smoothly.

#72 faith_machine

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Posted 10 October 2004 - 06:17 PM

Dear Bruce,

I thought you should know, my father passed away a few days ago. I told you when we met in Toronto, this summer, he was sick. I went to his funeral yesterday.

I want to stop disease and aging. Now is the time we can do something for the first time in history. Let me know if there is anything more I can do from here. I have my dads legacy of his life now to spur me to greater action.

I feel your pain and look out through my tears to control the human cell,

Brent Erskine
Canada

#73 Bruce Klein

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 05:17 AM

Sorry to hear about your father, Brent... but good to know you're channeling energy into productive life extension pursuits.

As individuals, the best we can do to support life extension is to talk more with friends and family... let them know why we want longer life... as organizations we can support each other with ideas and resources.

You may wish to check LongevityMeme's activism resource for inspiration:
http://www.longevity...cs/activism.cfm

#74 jaydfox

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Posted 21 October 2004 - 01:02 PM

Hey Bruce,

I can now understand where you're coming from. My father passed away in his sleep yesterday morning. He was only 52 and in improving health.

It's still too soon to try to talk much about it, but suffice it to say... Well, I don't know how to say it.

I've been a big proponent of researching incremental improvements for life extension in addition to focussing on the grand goals like SENS and nanomedicine.

My reasons for supporting the latter are personal, but my reasons for supporting the former, as I've stated many times, are for the people of my parents' generation, and more specifically my parents. Alas, my efforts have been at least partially in vain: after less than five months of activity in the anti-aging community, my father passed away of what I can only assume were aging-related conditions.

Unfortunately, I never did bring up cryonics with my father. I don't know that it would have helped, because he wasn't found until my mom came home for lunch, so he'd probably been dead upwards of eight hours. But that's not the point. My father is a brilliant man, and an avid reader of science fiction. But like many of his generation, he's skeptical of even moderate life extension, something promulgated even by many notable science fiction writers. I've been warming him to the idea of life extension on the order of living to 130, and I'd even discussed my efforts on the Fly Prize. But cryonics was a subject that I had hoped to continue to build towards over the coming year or two.

Apparently, I waited too long. I've waited too long to devote my full energies to the anti-aging community, to DOING something rather than TALKING about doing something.

NO MORE! I think Bruce said it best: The gloves are off! I don't know what I can do to help, but one area I am going to redouble my efforts on is the Fly Prize. I think it offers the best short term benefits for the buck.

And I'm also trying to think of how to fund it. I don't have the money. But millions of Americans do, millions of world citizens. And we have parents. In a day and age when it seems like all we hear about is "Save the children", and "Think about the children", and "What sort of world will are children inherit?", I stand up and defy the implied cynicism and death meme.

What about "Save our parents!" Why should the baby boomer generation not be allowed to fight tooth and nail to live as long as the generation Xers? Why must they be seen as old cronies kicking against the pricks! No more! We must do everything we can to save our parents!

#75 Lazarus Long

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Posted 21 October 2004 - 01:15 PM

My heart goes out to you Jay. I am sorry to hear this news. Please reach out to the family now for their needs and return to this fight with full vigor once those more immediate needs are met IMHO.

I too have lost both my parents and I am now losing my step father as well to intestinal/liver cancer.

For *death* the brutal truth is that the gloves have always been off and now it is our turn to return the favor.

#76 jaydfox

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Posted 21 October 2004 - 01:33 PM

Please reach out to the family now for their needs and return to this fight with full vigor once those more immediate needs are met IMHO.

Yes, I'm flying from Atlanta to SFO today to be with my mom, and I'll be returning Nov. 1 (I've got a family of my own to provide for, so I can't afford to take more than a week off work).

You'll be seeing less of me for the next week or two, but I'll probably still be around from time to time, as the work here helps take my mind off it (I'm an emotional person by nature, so as you can imagine, whenever I let myself dwell on it, I fall apart. I was fighting back tears writing the message I wrote above, as I am now. But when I can look beyond my plight to that of the rest of the world around me, it's actually something of a comfort to lose myself in the work.)

One thing that struck me as I was thinking about ImmInst was how asinine and pointless the censorship debate seems in the Free Speech Forum. I'm not saying it necessarily is pointless, but it sure seems that way when people are dying "in droves of hundreds, and thousands". God, I never made a connection like that before! Quick, name that quote!

#77 Bruce Klein

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Posted 21 October 2004 - 07:10 PM

/me hids head in hands (again)


Now hear me, men of Ithaka. When these
hard deeds were done by Lord Odysseus
the immortal gods were not far off. I saw
with my own eyes someone divine who fought
beside him, in the shape and dress of Mentor;
it was a god who shone before Odysseus,
a god who swept the suitors down the hall
dying in droves.


The Odyssey by Homer
Book 24, lines 489-96


It doesn't seem your father would have been a good candidate for cryonics as there has to be some glimmer of affirmation that living longer is worth wile. There are some divides which are to wide to bridge in this world.

Jay, my best to you in this stressful time. Remember to find opportunities to replenish joy withing yourself and family.

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Posted 22 October 2004 - 12:37 AM

Jay, I just read this now. My condolences to you and your family. I don't have words to describe your loss. I echo what BJKlein said though, some divides can be too large to bridge, and in my family it seems I'm struck with the same dilemma.

Take as much time as you need to sort things out. We'll be here when you're back.

#79 DJS

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Posted 22 October 2004 - 04:17 PM

One thing that struck me as I was thinking about ImmInst was how asinine and pointless the censorship debate seems in the Free Speech Forum.  I'm not saying it necessarily is pointless, but it sure seems that way when people are dying "in droves of hundreds, and thousands".  God, I never made a connection like that before!  Quick, name that quote!


I guess your right Jay. It is sort of pointless within the scheme of things, but every little improvement to the world around us makes a difference. We do what we can...

I hadn't come across your post when you first posted it, so I apologize for the delay. My heartfelt sympathies go out to you and your family. It is times like these when you realize that family means everything.

Be well,

Don

#80 thefirstimmortal

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Posted 22 October 2004 - 05:55 PM

]

One thing that struck me as I was thinking about ImmInst was how asinine and pointless the censorship debate seems in the Free Speech Forum.  I'm not saying it necessarily is pointless, but it sure seems that way when people are dying "in droves of hundreds, and thousands".  God, I never made a connection like that before!  Quick, name that quote!


It does seem asinine, in light of the fact that the forum was set up to avoid cenorship and prevent the very in-fighting that is currently taking place.

I for one would like to finish my current case and move on to working on laws relating to autopsies. Fighting about this issue costs us dearly, it consumes time and attention that could be put to better use.

A warring group is a poor one.

#81 jaydfox

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 05:25 AM

Bruce, and others who have lost parents all too early in their lives: How is it going in the months (and for some, years) that have passed?

It's only been about three weeks, and things are still so weird. Now that I am back in Atlanta, working and spending my time on sites such as this one, I think of it less and less, and it is much less real and present to me now then it was in the days after.

Then, there was the family and friends gathered together. The tears and fits came frequently. The memories poured in. Almost any conversation could spark a memory that brought back the grief.

And yet now, it's so... weird. So much time goes by in complete normalcy, making it all the more distinct when the grief returns. Two examples:

As many of you know, we had that total lunar eclipse the Wednesday before Halloween. Well, here's the thing. When I was in my early teens, maybe 10 or 11 or 12, my dad and I wanted to watch a total eclipse together. We were in Arizona at the time, visiting my grandparents.

It was overcast in Tucson in the hours before the eclipse, and we had originally planned to go over to Sabino Canyon to watch the event. Since it was clear in Phoenix (two hours north), we decided to head north and watch the eclipse up there. We started out driving north, and sure enough, the clouds were moving north as well. This was back when the speed limit was 55, and my dad drove about 70, only managing to stay in step with the advancing cloud cover. We even got pulled over (my dad didn't realize they could get you with radar while in motion, especially if coming towards you), and we had to use our "get out of jail free" card: my uncle worked in the Arizona Highway Patrol, and was well liked and known by most of the officers in the state.

We continued north, reaching the point in the highway where it bent west, yet the clouds continued north. We pulled onto side roads, trying to stay north ahead of the clouds. Cloud cover turned to raging thunderstorm, and we finally gave up.

The next day, we found out that the clouds over Sabino Canyon had parted for about half an hour, allowing a good view of the eclipse.

Ever since then, whenever a total lunar eclipse was going to be visible, my dad always let me know a few days or weeks ahead of time.

So here it was, a week to the day after he died, and this eclipse starts happening. I was totally surprised by it. I saw it happening, and thought, "How could I not have known that there was an eclipse tonight?" And then it hit me!


And then tonight, another example. I was eating some pizza, and I was looking at the cover of the pizza box. I saw a section that had ten questions, so I started reading them. The questions looked like they were for kids, because their was a picture of a girl above them:

"What was your favorite subject in school?" Kind of a strange question; why word it in the past tense?

"What's your favorite day of the week?"

The third question got my attention a little:
"When you were my age, what did you want to be when you grew up?" Obviously these were questions that kids were supposed to ask adults, not other kids. So I read the caption above the questions: "10 fun questions for kids to ask their parents".

I started trying to think if I knew the answers to those questions, and thought that I could just ask my parents if I didn't know... And it hit me hard! I mean, it was a complete shock, just like that, and the pain was back...

Now I don't expect moments like this to eventually not happen anymore... But I have to wonder if they still strike just as hard when they do come. At any rate, whenever I find myself wondering if I'm forgetting or losing touch, these moments remind me how very real the whole situation is.

#82 Bruce Klein

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 04:56 AM

Yes, a loved one's death brings home the fragility of life.

#83 stranger

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Posted 17 November 2004 - 10:25 AM

BJ,

My belated condolences.

Yes, even physical life is sacred.

I,myself, lost my dad in similar fashion. (92)
Four years later, I lost my mom. After a seemingly routine operation.
Both events were painful, to say the least.
I lost my eighteen year old (the eldest ) brother in '68. I was 10 years old.
The family was devastated at the time, to put it mildly.

As painful as it all was, the sun rose again.

What I mean by that, is that, although they may have left their vessels, the spirits are very much alive. And then some.

I tell you this because my own dear brother came back into my life fourteen years after his departure. 1982. And not just as a rambling spirit. In my case, he came back as one of my teachers. He came in company of an old Indian guru(swami).
( a fairly well-reknown spiritual master). Although that in itself is a story in its own right, my own dear mother has visited me just as well. And my old man, of course. And although I have been fortunate to have become acquainted with higher 'spirits' still, my family is always just as present as it ever was.( maybe not everyday, but every other day or so).

O.K., as far as your work and determination is concerned I have nothing against it.
But like Aliza (member of this forum/thread) said , "even the work we're trying to do here(IMMINST) couldn't have prevented such an occurence from happening".
What you're trying to do or achieve is your own project, and I have nothing against it. In fact, I wish you success. And I'll point out similar projects available throughout the 'net, if you so desire. Just keep an open mind as far as the ultimate sources of life are concerned. You don't have to work alone.

Hey, by the way, I hope you're doing fine with the film.

Later,

stranger

P.S. Maybe (,if you haven't already done so, )you should check the Matthew Ward story. A little strange in content, but maybe you can glean some insights.

#84 Bruce Klein

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 04:48 AM

Thanks for the kind words.

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 11:57 AM

Just read this. I'm sorry for your loss JF. 52 is just too f*cking young to go.

#86 Lazarus Long

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 06:48 PM

To Eliezer, who might read this here though he authored it elsewhere I want you to know that at the very least we share your outrage at the injustice of mortality.

I received this forwarded letter from a Singularity Institute member and thought of how I and many of us here have also often talked with Eliezer and might want to send condolences but also how moving and heartfelt were his words, appropriate to the feelings many of us share so I decided to.

Here is the text of Eliezer's letter.

My little brother, Yehuda Nattan Yudkowsky, is dead.

He died November 1st. His body was found without identification. The family found out on November 4th. I spent a week and a half with my family in Chicago, and am now back in Atlanta. I've been putting off telling my friends, because it's such a hard thing to say.


I used to say: "I have four living grandparents and I intend to have four living grandparents when the last star in the Milky Way burns out." I still have four living grandparents, but I don't think I'll be saying that any more. Even if we make it to and through the Singularity, it will be too late. One of the people I love won't be there. The universe has a surprising ability to stab you through the heart from somewhere you weren't looking. Of all the people I had to protect, I never thought that Yehuda might be one of them. Yehuda was born on July 11, 1985. He lived 7053 days. He was nineteen years old when he died.


The Jewish religion prescribes a number of rituals and condolences for the occasion of a death. The rituals are pointless and tiring; the condolences are religious idiocies. Yehuda has passed to a better place, God's ways are mysterious but benign, etc. Does such talk really comfort people? I watched my parents, and I don't think it did. The blessing that is spoken at Jewish funerals is "Blessed is God, the true judge." Do they really believe that? Why do they cry at funerals, if they believe that? Does it help someone, to tell them that their religion requires them to believe that? I think I coped better than my parents and my little sister Channah. I was just dealing with pain, not confusion. When I heard on the phone that Yehuda had died, there was never a moment of disbelief. I knew what kind of universe I lived in, and I knew what I planned to do about that. How is my religious family to comprehend it, working, as they must, from the assumption that Yehuda was deliberately murdered by a benevolent God? The same loving God, I presume, who arranges for millions of children to grow up illiterate and starving; the same kindly tribal father-figure who arranged the Holocaust and the Inquisition's torture of witches. I would not hesitate to call it evil, if any sentient mind had committed such an act, permitted such a thing. But I have weighed the evidence as best I can, and I do not believe the universe to be evil, a reply which in these days is called atheism.

Maybe it helps to believe in an immortal soul. I know that I would feel a lot better if Yehuda had gone away on a trip somewhere, even if he was never coming back. But Yehuda did not "pass on". Yehuda is not "resting in peace". Yehuda is not coming back. Yehuda doesn't exist any more. Yehuda was absolutely annihilated at the age of nineteen. Yes, that makes me angry. I can't put into words how angry. It would be rage to rend the gates of Heaven and burn down God on Its throne, if any God existed. But there is no God, so my anger burns to tear apart the way-things-are, remake the pattern of a world that permits this.

I wonder at the strength of non-transhumanist atheists, to accept so terrible a darkness without any hope of changing it. But then most atheists also succumb to comforting lies, and make excuses for death even less defensible than the outright lies of religion. They flinch away, refuse to confront the horror of a hundred and fifty thousand sentient beings annihilated every day. One point eight lives per second, fifty-five million lives per year. Convert the units, time to life, life to time. The World Trade Center killed half an hour. As of today, all cryonics organizations together have suspended one minute. This essay took twenty thousand lives to write. I wonder if there was ever an atheist who accepted the full horror, making no excuses, offering no consolations, who did not also hope for some future dawn. What must it be like to live in this world, seeing it just the way it is, and think that it will never change, never get any better?

Yehuda's death is the first time I ever lost someone close enough for it to hurt. So now I've seen the face of the enemy. Now I understand, a little better, the price of half a second. I don't understand it well, because the human brain has a pattern built into it. We do not grieve forever, but move on. We mourn for a few days and then continue with our lives. Such underreaction poorly equips us to comprehend Yehuda's death. Nineteen years of life and memory annihilated. A thousand years, or a million millennia, or a forever, of future life lost. The sun should have dimmed when Yehuda died, and a chill wind blown in every place that sentient beings gather, to tell us that our number was diminished by one. But the sun did not dim, because we do not live in that sensible a universe. Even if the sun did dim whenever someone died, it wouldn't be noticeable except as a continuous flickering. Soon everyone would get used to it, and they would no longer notice the flickering of the sun.

My little brother collected corks from wine bottles. Someone brought home, to the family, a pair of corks they had collected for Yehuda, and never had a chance to give him. And my grandmother said, "Give them to Channah, and someday she'll tell her children about how her brother Yehuda collected corks." My grandmother's words shocked me, stretched across more time than it had ever occurred to me to imagine, to when my fourteen-year-old sister had grown up and had married and was telling her children about the brother she'd lost. How could my grandmother skip across all those years so easily when I was struggling to get through the day? I heard my grandmother's words and thought: she has been through this before. This isn't the first loved one my grandmother has lost, the way Yehuda was the first loved one I'd lost. My grandmother is old enough to have a pattern for dealing with the death of loved ones; she knows how to handle this because she's done it before. And I thought: how can she accept this? If she knows, why isn't she fighting with everything she has to change it?

What would it be like to be a rational atheist in the fifteenth century, and know beyond all hope of rescue that everyone you loved would be annihilated, one after another, unless you yourself died first? That is still the fate of humans today; the ongoing horror has not changed, for all that we have hope. Death is not a distant dream, not a terrible tragedy that happens to someone else like the stories you read in newspapers. One day you'll get a phone call, like I got a phone call, and the possibility that seemed distant will become reality. You will mourn, and finish mourning, and go on with your life, and then one day you'll get another phone call. That is the fate this world has in store for you, unless you make a convulsive effort to change it.

Since Yehuda's body was not identified for three days after he died, there was no possible way he could have been cryonically suspended. Others may be luckier. If you've been putting off that talk with your loved ones, do it. Maybe they won't understand, but at least you won't spend forever wondering why you didn't even try.

There is one Jewish custom associated with death that makes sense to me, which is contributing to charity on behalf of the departed. I am donating eighteen hundred dollars to the general fund of the Singularity Institute, because this has gone on long enough. If you object to the Singularity Institute then consider Dr. Aubrey de Grey's Methuselah Foundation, which hopes to defeat aging through biomedical engineering. I think that a sensible coping strategy for transhumanist atheists, to donate to an anti-death charity after a loved one dies. Death hurt us, so we will unmake Death. Let that be the outlet for our anger, which is terrible and just. I watched Yehuda's coffin lowered into the ground and cried, and then I sat through the eulogy and heard rabbis tell comforting lies. If I had spoken Yehuda's eulogy I would not have comforted the mourners in their loss. I would have told the mourners that Yehuda had been absolutely annihilated, that there was nothing left of him. I would have told them they were right to be angry, that they had been robbed, that something precious and irreplaceable was taken from them, for no reason at all, taken from them and shattered, and they are never getting it back.

If there should be a monument someday, somewhere on it will be "$1800, in memoriam Yehuda Nattan Yudkowsky, 1985-2004." It will not restore him to life. No sentient being deserves such a thing. Let that be my brother's true eulogy, free of comforting lies.

When Michael Wilson [one of our researchers] heard the news, he said: "We shall have to work faster." Any similar condolences are welcome. Other condolences are not.

Goodbye, Yehuda. There isn't much point in saying it, since there's no one to hear. Goodbye, Yehuda, you don't exist any more. Nothing left of you after your death, like there was nothing before your birth. You died, and your family, Mom and Dad and Channah and I, sat down at the Sabbath table just like our family had always been composed of only four people, like there had never been a Yehuda. Goodbye, Yehuda Yudkowsky, never to return, never to be forgotten.

Love,
Eliezer



#87 jaydfox

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 07:33 PM

There is one Jewish custom associated with death that makes sense to me, which is contributing to charity on behalf of the departed. I am donating eighteen hundred dollars to the general fund of the Singularity Institute, because this has gone on long enough. If you object to the Singularity Institute then consider Dr. Aubrey de Grey's Methuselah Foundation, which hopes to defeat aging through biomedical engineering. I think that a sensible coping strategy for transhumanist atheists, to donate to an anti-death charity after a loved one dies. Death hurt us, so we will unmake Death. Let that be the outlet for our anger, which is terrible and just.

I agree completely. I'm still working on my own essay, my own way of expressing the endless flood of words that comes to my mind. Here is but a terribly short version of my thoughts, which will be posted at the Methuselah Foundation's new In Memoriam section, of which my father will be one of the first remembered:

Mitchell "Mitch" Fox
June 27, 1952 - October 20, 2004

Mitchell "Mitch" Fox, 52, passed away on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 at his home in Stockton, CA.

He was born June 27, 1952 in Paragould, Arkansas. Mr. Fox was a U.S. Army veteran and worked as a Materials Manager in the electronics field for 20 years.

He is the beloved husband of Patricia Fox of Stockton. Devoted son of Frances and Doyle Fox of Catalina, Arizona. He was the loving father of Jay Daniel Fox and wife, Kelly of Tulare, CA and Jeff Ryan Fox of Stockton.

Et cetera. Thus said his obituary in the October 22nd, 2004 edition of The Record of Stockton, CA.

We can make a list of those whom my father is survived by, but it's just a list of names, after all. I am one of those names: Jay Daniel Fox. I don't want to be part of any list. I am a son who loved his father dearly.

Sadly, my father was taken too early from this life. I think it is more telling that my grandparents, Frances and Luther Doyle Fox, are on that list as well. They too are still here to feel the grief of their eldest son's passing. My mother's name appears on that list: Patricia Fox. In the weeks since my father's death, she has been hit the hardest, both by the grief that makes her a crying wreck, and by the financial burdens left in the wake. My younger brother Jeff has also taken this pretty hard. My wife Kelly, who lost her own father 11 years ago, felt a more immediate sense of panic than even I did at hearing the news.

And of course, there were my two uncles and my aunt, who felt the loss of their dear oldest brother in their own way. My mom's older brother and mother stood by her and shared her grief as they tried to support here. My cousins, ranging in age from early teens to mid 20's, displayed a range of emotions as well. My teenage cousin Ted cried almost as much as I did in the funeral chapel.

We are a family torn by this loss. And yet this very act of loss and grief and despair and turmoil is repeated over 100,000 times every single day. Every year, over 52 million people lose their lives to age-related diseases: a tragedy I had understood in principle until a few weeks ago, and a tragedy that unfortunately I now understand ever so slightly more personally.

When friends and coworkers came forward offering to send flowers, my mother asked instead that they make donations to the American Heart Association. After all, flowers give only brief comfort and then decay, and an overabundance of such flowers leads to an overabundance of decay, with little if any extra comfort. Donations to a medical charity can save lives, and that provides much more comfort in the long run.

My father had a large extended family, and as a businessman he had hundreds of coworkers and colleagues. If you knew my father, please take a moment to look at the goals of the Methuselah Foundation, and see if you too can find the vision that I see here. In my opinion, it offers the hope of saving a hundred, if not a thousand times more lives than the American Heart Association for a given amount of charitable donation. If comfort for our dearly departed is what we seek, what better way could there be?

If you can't find reason within yourself to donate to this worthy cause, then please consider other worthy causes: the American Heart Association, the American Cancer Society, or the American Diabetes Association. Each of these associations fights against a major killing disease. And each of these diseases played a part in my family's grief: my father had heart problems, including high cholesterol and high blood pressure, as well as type II diabetes; my aunt Christine, my mother's younger sister, died a few years ago in her 30's of breast cancer.

The Methuselah Foundation seeks to make sure that far fewer people will have to suffer the pain that my family has felt, and which over a hundred thousand other families feel, each and every day. Please support us in giving our parents the extra years that medicine will have to offer them. Please donate.

Let me finish by quoting the rest of the "list":

Mitch was the dear grandfather of Daniel Richard Sayer-Fox and loving brother of Pat Fox-Marburger of OR, Martin Fox of Placerville, Marvin Fox of Catalina, AZ and uncle to numerous nieces and nephews. He is the son-in-law of Betty Fox Desrochers of Sun Lakes, AZ.

Family and friends are invited to attend a Funeral Service on Saturday, October 23, 2004 at 2:00 p.m. at the DeYoung Memorial Chapel, 601 N. California St., Stockton, CA. Visitation will be Friday, October 22, 2004 at DeYoung's, 3:00 to 7:00 p.m. and Saturday, 9:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. Private committal at Parkview Cemetery.

The family suggests memorial contributions be made to the American Heart Association, 1212 W. Robinhood Dr., Suite 5D, Stockton, CA 95207.

Not as eloquent, but I never was one of eloquence. But the fight against death needs more than eloquence. It needs resolve and action, and I have both now in larger quantities than I did five weeks ago.

#88 Infernity

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Posted 24 January 2005 - 11:26 AM

Sometimes silence is best, not because there's nothing to say, but because some things are just too deep for words...
I am so sorry to hear it Bruce, you did not deserv it. I'm truly sorry.

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

#89 jaydfox

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Posted 03 February 2005 - 07:09 PM

Bruce, I think we need an In Memoriam section here at ImmInst. Not necessarily focussed on getting donations, but just so that we can share our stories and the lives of the departed. The focus doesn't need to be on aging-related deaths, though statistically speaking, that's what they're bound to be. After all, ImmInst's mission doesn't just cover aging-related deaths.

The MPrize will eventually have such a section, but I think something more forum/blog-oriented would allow a better community feel.

I just received this (excerpted) email today from an old high school buddy that I haven't seen in probably five years.

Jay,

Necip told me last winter about what happened. I have been meaning to
drop a line to you sooner...school has been overwhelming and I
apologise for my belated condolences to you and your family.

When Necip told me about what happened to your dad, I couldn't help
but remember how cool he was. I remember the day when we were stranded
after school at Oak Grove, and your dad came through with the Corvette
and ferried us home one at a time! I think it was you, me, Brennan,
and James.  When he took me home that day, there was a stoplight on
the on-ramp to 101 south, heading towards Bernal for traffic. He
stopped the car. And when it turned green, he GUNNED it and my head
was plastered to the headrest! To this day, I swear it was the best
ride in a car I have ever experienced. I remember him laughing when he
saw me get thrown back into the chair from the sudden accelleration.

It is really cool that he was able to see his grandchild before he
passed. Another close friend of mine also lost his father at a young
age to Lou Gherigs disease recently. Before he died, he was able to
say how happy he was to have seen his grandkids. Im know your dad was
proud of you...

Yes, it was a bit strange to get ferried one at a time, but alas, with a two-seater, we had no other choice. But my dad didn't mind. He was there for us.

Sadly, though my father did get to see his grandson, he did not get to see his granddaughter, who was only born a little over three weeks ago. However, he did at least get to know that his next grandchild was going to be a girl. Just a week before he died, I called him and told him the results of the latest ultrasound, which finally indicated the baby's sex. At my father's funeral, his brother talked about how he had gloated to all the relatives that he was having a granddaugther. He was so proud. I have to fight back tears to say this, but I know he was happy.

#90 Bruce Klein

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Posted 04 February 2005 - 04:26 AM

Agreed, Jay.

I propose we create such a forum, perhaps entitled: "Failure & Memorial"

Perhaps we may bring to leadership upon finalization of elections.




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