17 replies to this topic

[tunt01]

http://www.marketwat...nk=MW_news_stmp

bit of sleight of hand here, but they are reporting the ability to make stem cells w/ fully lengthened telomeres.

[Mind]

Aim: To determine whether transcriptional reprogramming is capable of reversing the developmental aging of normal human somatic cells to an embryonic state. Materials & methods: An isogenic system was utilized to facilitate an accurate assessment of the reprogramming of telomere restriction fragment (TRF) length of aged differentiated cells to that of the human embryonic stem (hES) cell line from which they were originally derived. An hES-derived mortal clonal cell strain EN13 was reprogrammed by SOX2, OCT4 and KLF4. The six resulting induced pluripotent stem (iPS) cell lines were surveyed for telomere length, telomerase activity and telomere-related gene expression. In addition, we measured all these parameters in widely-used hES and iPS cell lines and compared the results to those obtained in the six new isogenic iPS cell lines. Results: We observed variable but relatively long TRF lengths in three widely studied hES cell lines (16.09–21.1 kb) but markedly shorter TRF lengths (6.4–12.6 kb) in five similarly widely studied iPS cell lines. Transcriptome analysis comparing these hES and iPS cell lines showed modest variation in a small subset of genes implicated in telomere length regulation. However, iPS cell lines consistently showed reduced levels of telomerase activity compared with hES cell lines. In order to verify these results in an isogenic background, we generated six iPS cell clones from the hES-derived cell line EN13. These iPS cell clones showed initial telomere lengths comparable to the parental EN13 cells, had telomerase activity, expressed embryonic stem cell markers and had a telomere-related transcriptome similar to hES cells. Subsequent culture of five out of six lines generally showed telomere shortening to lengths similar to that observed in the widely distributed iPS lines. However, the clone EH3, with relatively high levels of telomerase activity, progressively increased TRF length over 60 days of serial culture back to that of the parental hES cell line. Conclusion: Prematurely aged (shortened) telomeres appears to be a common feature of iPS cells created by current pluripotency protocols. However, the spontaneous appearance of lines that express sufficient telomerase activity to extend telomere length may allow the reversal of developmental aging in human cells for use in regenerative medicine.

[urba]

This is very interesting summary -

Oncogene (2010) 29, 1561–1565; doi:10.1038/onc.2010.15
2009 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine: telomeres and telomerase

E Varela1 and M A Blasco1
ref


and usefull experiment -

DNA methylation is a common event in gastric carcinogenesis. hTERT seems to be the rate-limiting determinant of telomerase activation, which is responsible for stability and life span. hTERT hypermethylation has been associated with telomerase expression. In the present study...

from Biomarkers. 2009 Dec;14(8):630-6
abstract

[N.T.M.]

"These are just the type of basic discoveries that if funded on a larger scale, could help us ward off the enormous wave of health care expenditures coming our way as a result of the aging baby boom population."

Now that's interesting. It's an obvious indication that it may be available for use fairly soon.

[yuseff]

"These are just the type of basic discoveries that if funded on a larger scale, could help us ward off the enormous wave of health care expenditures coming our way as a result of the aging baby boom population."

Now that's interesting. It's an obvious indication that it may be available for use fairly soon.

I dont want to go in to conspiracy to much, but if the companies did not have drugs to market to people then they wouldnt make money. So why would they want to find a cure all or the like, theres no benefit to them...unless they charge you the amount of medications that you would have bought from them in your whole lifetime for the discovery.

[bosozok]

"These are just the type of basic discoveries that if funded on a larger scale, could help us ward off the enormous wave of health care expenditures coming our way as a result of the aging baby boom population."

Now that's interesting. It's an obvious indication that it may be available for use fairly soon.

I dont want to go in to conspiracy to much, but if the companies did not have drugs to market to people then they wouldnt make money. So why would they want to find a cure all or the like, theres no benefit to them...unless they charge you the amount of medications that you would have bought from them in your whole lifetime for the discovery.

Very pertinent point.

It must then be asked how then will it ever be possible for the Imminst Mission to be fulfilled? If profit and free market ideology rule it hardly seems likely. It seems mortality provides a great motive for the mankind to progress beyond our biological limitations, but unfortunately the greatest means for individuals in power /corporations to profit.

I remain optimistic. Capitalism will eat itself and we will all benefit when it does.

[rwac]

It must then be asked how then will it ever be possible for the Imminst Mission to be fulfilled?

There's plenty of money to be made in life extension. You just have to bypass (supplements) or work around (test the drugs for some other illness) the FDA.

[Ghostrider]

It must then be asked how then will it ever be possible for the Imminst Mission to be fulfilled?

There's plenty of money to be made in life extension. You just have to bypass (supplements) or work around (test the drugs for some other illness) the FDA.

If you had a drug that significantly extended human life, you could sell it anywhere and people would come from all over for it.

[bosozok]

It must then be asked how then will it ever be possible for the Imminst Mission to be fulfilled?

There's plenty of money to be made in life extension. You just have to bypass (supplements) or work around (test the drugs for some other illness) the FDA.

If you had a drug that significantly extended human life, you could sell it anywhere and people would come from all over for it.

Its a pleasant thought. But back to reality.

Look at what the Big Pharma through the FDA have been doing to supplement industry, and to ensuring look established supplements and the knowledge of how to use them are kept from the public, just in the couple of years or so. Just to take one example look at Okinawa to see the benefit that a diet high in iodine has against the kind of breast and prostrate cancer rates we have in many parts of the West. Compare the iodine intake of the average Okinawan with the recommended FDA daily allowance/ WHO recommendation.

Looking locally, in Austalia the recommendation for daily iodine consumption is 150 micrograms for men, 120 micrograms for women. In Japan the figure I find for average daily iodine in diet is 12 mg/day. In the US average daily allowance is 240 micrograms. Japanese consume about 50 times more iodine than Americans. Compare the average expected lifespan of the people in those two countries. Iodine in the diet has been cited in several studies as a contributing factor in Japanese low incidence of those cancers, and longer lifespan.

Your grandma used to be able to walk down to the corner store and buy iodine for the medicine cabinet, not for drinking perhaps but as a general household medicine. Ever seen it on the shelves in your town in your lifetime?

That's the FDA for you. No, actually, that's corporations running your government for you.

Seems to me the case for corporations making more money from mortality will find a lot more convincing supporting evidence than will the case for corporations making money from prolonging life.

Of course when they do find the answer to immortality in a pill, it will come with a healthy price tag. I just can't see it being one you or I could afford. Human health / long life for everyone and the profit motive just don't seem to be in harmony do they?

[Ghostrider]

It must then be asked how then will it ever be possible for the Imminst Mission to be fulfilled?

There's plenty of money to be made in life extension. You just have to bypass (supplements) or work around (test the drugs for some other illness) the FDA.

If you had a drug that significantly extended human life, you could sell it anywhere and people would come from all over for it.

Its a pleasant thought. But back to reality.

Look at what the Big Pharma through the FDA have been doing to supplement industry, and to ensuring look established supplements and the knowledge of how to use them are kept from the public, just in the couple of years or so. Just to take one example look at Okinawa to see the benefit that a diet high in iodine has against the kind of breast and prostrate cancer rates we have in many parts of the West. Compare the iodine intake of the average Okinawan with the recommended FDA daily allowance/ WHO recommendation.

Looking locally, in Austalia the recommendation for daily iodine consumption is 150 micrograms for men, 120 micrograms for women. In Japan the figure I find for average daily iodine in diet is 12 mg/day. In the US average daily allowance is 240 micrograms. Japanese consume about 50 times more iodine than Americans. Compare the average expected lifespan of the people in those two countries. Iodine in the diet has been cited in several studies as a contributing factor in Japanese low incidence of those cancers, and longer lifespan.

Your grandma used to be able to walk down to the corner store and buy iodine for the medicine cabinet, not for drinking perhaps but as a general household medicine. Ever seen it on the shelves in your town in your lifetime?

That's the FDA for you. No, actually, that's corporations running your government for you.

Seems to me the case for corporations making more money from mortality will find a lot more convincing supporting evidence than will the case for corporations making money from prolonging life.

Of course when they do find the answer to immortality in a pill, it will come with a healthy price tag. I just can't see it being one you or I could afford. Human health / long life for everyone and the profit motive just don't seem to be in harmony do they?

I'm not denying that corporations are not greedy (greed and corruption tend to increase with the size of an organization). But if you are going to suggest that big corporations have forced drug stores to stop selling iodine (rather than people simply choosing not to buy it or a cheaper alternative becoming available), you're going to need to supply some proof. According to Wikipedia, it was banned due to it's connection in making methamphetamine:


Clandestine synthetic chemical use
In the United States, the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) regards iodine and compounds containing iodine (ionic iodides, iodoform, ethyl iodide, and so on) as reagents useful for the clandestine manufacture of methamphetamine.^[28]




So provide some proof that shows corporations somehow convinced the government to ban iodine in the name of drug enforcement...

Longevity treatments probably will be expensive when they come out...someone has to pay for all the research costs. However, Aubrey has explained more than once that when treatments are robust (I'm fine with letting the rich test them for me to ensure they are safe), all governments that wish to be economically competitive will have an incentive to provide them. Just as all governments have an incentive to provide free public education. If you can have people work for 500 years vs. 40, think of the economic consequences. No country would be able to compete economically with one whose citizens are living 10x longer. If you really believe: "
Of course when they do find the answer to immortality in a pill, it will come with a healthy price tag. I just can't see it being one you or I could afford." then why waste your time here? Trying to spread pessimism about indefinite lifespan?

[bosozok]

It must then be asked how then will it ever be possible for the Imminst Mission to be fulfilled?

There's plenty of money to be made in life extension. You just have to bypass (supplements) or work around (test the drugs for some other illness) the FDA.

If you had a drug that significantly extended human life, you could sell it anywhere and people would come from all over for it.

Its a pleasant thought. But back to reality.

Look at what the Big Pharma through the FDA have been doing to supplement industry, and to ensuring look established supplements and the knowledge of how to use them are kept from the public, just in the couple of years or so. Just to take one example look at Okinawa to see the benefit that a diet high in iodine has against the kind of breast and prostrate cancer rates we have in many parts of the West. Compare the iodine intake of the average Okinawan with the recommended FDA daily allowance/ WHO recommendation.

Looking locally, in Austalia the recommendation for daily iodine consumption is 150 micrograms for men, 120 micrograms for women. In Japan the figure I find for average daily iodine in diet is 12 mg/day. In the US average daily allowance is 240 micrograms. Japanese consume about 50 times more iodine than Americans. Compare the average expected lifespan of the people in those two countries. Iodine in the diet has been cited in several studies as a contributing factor in Japanese low incidence of those cancers, and longer lifespan.

Your grandma used to be able to walk down to the corner store and buy iodine for the medicine cabinet, not for drinking perhaps but as a general household medicine. Ever seen it on the shelves in your town in your lifetime?

That's the FDA for you. No, actually, that's corporations running your government for you.

Seems to me the case for corporations making more money from mortality will find a lot more convincing supporting evidence than will the case for corporations making money from prolonging life.

Of course when they do find the answer to immortality in a pill, it will come with a healthy price tag. I just can't see it being one you or I could afford. Human health / long life for everyone and the profit motive just don't seem to be in harmony do they?

I'm not denying that corporations are not greedy (greed and corruption tend to increase with the size of an organization). But if you are going to suggest that big corporations have forced drug stores to stop selling iodine (rather than people simply choosing not to buy it or a cheaper alternative becoming available), you're going to need to supply some proof. According to Wikipedia, it was banned due to it's connection in making methamphetamine:


Clandestine synthetic chemical use
In the United States, the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) regards iodine and compounds containing iodine (ionic iodides, iodoform, ethyl iodide, and so on) as reagents useful for the clandestine manufacture of methamphetamine.^[28]




So provide some proof that shows corporations somehow convinced the government to ban iodine in the name of drug enforcement...

Longevity treatments probably will be expensive when they come out...someone has to pay for all the research costs. However, Aubrey has explained more than once that when treatments are robust (I'm fine with letting the rich test them for me to ensure they are safe), all governments that wish to be economically competitive will have an incentive to provide them. Just as all governments have an incentive to provide free public education. If you can have people work for 500 years vs. 40, think of the economic consequences. No country would be able to compete economically with one whose citizens are living 10x longer. If you really believe: "
Of course when they do find the answer to immortality in a pill, it will come with a healthy price tag. I just can't see it being one you or I could afford." then why waste your time here? Trying to spread pessimism about indefinite lifespan?

Go into a drugstore and you will find the base chemicals for the production of a whole lot of illicit drugs. Most of these have restrictions place on them. But they are available to buy without prescription often enough. However, you will not be able to buy iodine. Above I am principally talking about consuming iodine, and that is either naturally in the diet or through supplementation, say in the form of Lugols solution. You can buy iodine supplements from reputable outfits like NOW food. But the point I am making is not only is iodine no longer readily available to the general public where it used to be in the medicine cabinet of every home, but it is the subject of a propaganda campaign aiming to scare people away from using it either to topically self medicate or as a supplement.

It is perhaps ironical you should mention methamphetamine manufacture as the reason for iodine no longer being readily available. That drug was discovered in Japan, the very country where its hard to find any Japanese that suffers from iodine deficiency. Where there is no propaganda campaign against iodine. Where doctors understand how iodine is necessary in far larger quantities than the FDA stipulates. And like I said where people live on average way longer than Americans, or Australians, and suffer far far lower risk of prostrate or breast cancer.

The whole idea we need to worry about too many mouths to feed is a poisonous lie by the way. There is more than enough money in this world to hugely benefit everybody. More than enough technology to instantly benefit the whole of mankind, but it wouldn't be profitable would it?

Its a side thought to the point you raise but worth a mention, Haiti has been left to die in disease and devastation. The best the West could do following the earthquake was to send in the military to protect some valuable assets. Then once order was regained they left. Barely a cent of the money promised by the West has been delivered to Haiti. Less than 20% of the rubble has been cleared away. And right now hundreds of those living in the tent city are dying of cholera, a disease the world had virtually wiped out a long long time ago.

Why waste my time here you ask? Because I think every human being has the right to a 500 year healthy lifespan, and really people like you and me are nothing special.

[bosozok]

It must then be asked how then will it ever be possible for the Imminst Mission to be fulfilled?

There's plenty of money to be made in life extension. You just have to bypass (supplements) or work around (test the drugs for some other illness) the FDA.

If you had a drug that significantly extended human life, you could sell it anywhere and people would come from all over for it.

Its a pleasant thought. But back to reality.

Look at what the Big Pharma through the FDA have been doing to supplement industry, and to ensuring look established supplements and the knowledge of how to use them are kept from the public, just in the couple of years or so. Just to take one example look at Okinawa to see the benefit that a diet high in iodine has against the kind of breast and prostrate cancer rates we have in many parts of the West. Compare the iodine intake of the average Okinawan with the recommended FDA daily allowance/ WHO recommendation.

Looking locally, in Austalia the recommendation for daily iodine consumption is 150 micrograms for men, 120 micrograms for women. In Japan the figure I find for average daily iodine in diet is 12 mg/day. In the US average daily allowance is 240 micrograms. Japanese consume about 50 times more iodine than Americans. Compare the average expected lifespan of the people in those two countries. Iodine in the diet has been cited in several studies as a contributing factor in Japanese low incidence of those cancers, and longer lifespan.

Your grandma used to be able to walk down to the corner store and buy iodine for the medicine cabinet, not for drinking perhaps but as a general household medicine. Ever seen it on the shelves in your town in your lifetime?

That's the FDA for you. No, actually, that's corporations running your government for you.

Seems to me the case for corporations making more money from mortality will find a lot more convincing supporting evidence than will the case for corporations making money from prolonging life.

Of course when they do find the answer to immortality in a pill, it will come with a healthy price tag. I just can't see it being one you or I could afford. Human health / long life for everyone and the profit motive just don't seem to be in harmony do they?

I'm not denying that corporations are not greedy (greed and corruption tend to increase with the size of an organization). But if you are going to suggest that big corporations have forced drug stores to stop selling iodine (rather than people simply choosing not to buy it or a cheaper alternative becoming available), you're going to need to supply some proof. According to Wikipedia, it was banned due to it's connection in making methamphetamine:


Clandestine synthetic chemical use
In the United States, the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) regards iodine and compounds containing iodine (ionic iodides, iodoform, ethyl iodide, and so on) as reagents useful for the clandestine manufacture of methamphetamine.^[28]




So provide some proof that shows corporations somehow convinced the government to ban iodine in the name of drug enforcement...

Longevity treatments probably will be expensive when they come out...someone has to pay for all the research costs. However, Aubrey has explained more than once that when treatments are robust (I'm fine with letting the rich test them for me to ensure they are safe), all governments that wish to be economically competitive will have an incentive to provide them. Just as all governments have an incentive to provide free public education. If you can have people work for 500 years vs. 40, think of the economic consequences. No country would be able to compete economically with one whose citizens are living 10x longer. If you really believe: "
Of course when they do find the answer to immortality in a pill, it will come with a healthy price tag. I just can't see it being one you or I could afford." then why waste your time here? Trying to spread pessimism about indefinite lifespan?

Go into a drugstore and you will find the base chemicals for the production of a whole lot of illicit drugs. Most of these have restrictions place on them. But they are available to buy without prescription often enough. However, you will not be able to buy iodine. Above I am principally talking about consuming iodine, and that is either naturally in the diet or through supplementation, say in the form of Lugols solution. You can buy iodine supplements from reputable outfits like NOW food. But the point I am making is not only is iodine no longer readily available to the general public where it used to be in the medicine cabinet of every home, but it is the subject of a propaganda campaign aiming to scare people away from using it either to topically self medicate or as a supplement.

It is perhaps ironical you should mention methamphetamine manufacture as the reason for iodine no longer being readily available. That drug was discovered in Japan, the very country where its hard to find any Japanese that suffers from iodine deficiency. Where there is no propaganda campaign against iodine. Where doctors understand how iodine is necessary in far larger quantities than the FDA stipulates. And like I said where people live on average way longer than Americans, or Australians, and suffer far far lower risk of prostrate or breast cancer.

The whole idea we need to worry about too many mouths to feed is a poisonous lie by the way. There is more than enough money in this world to hugely benefit everybody. More than enough technology to instantly benefit the whole of mankind, but it wouldn't be profitable would it?

Its a side thought to the point you raise but worth a mention, Haiti has been left to die in disease and devastation. The best the West could do following the earthquake was to send in the military to protect some valuable assets. Then once order was regained they left. Barely a cent of the money promised by the West has been delivered to Haiti. Less than 20% of the rubble has been cleared away. And right now hundreds of those living in the tent city are dying of cholera, a disease the world had virtually wiped out a long long time ago.

Why waste my time here you ask? Because I think every human being has the right to a 500 year healthy lifespan, and really people like you and me are nothing special.

Misread the post. Maybe the flag is for that reason?

But to reply to what you have actually posted.

I think the need to profit has already turned to greed on a large scale and it seems to have led us to a major financial precipice. And still I don't see governments anywhere throwing up their hands and saying 'To hell with it, lets make education AND healthcare free'. If those that govern us really thought workers living for 500 years was a good idea we would have free health care for goodness sake. Basically yes, I do believe that corporations run governments. Not the people. So based on what is actually taking place I just can't agree with you.

People everywhere deserve the opportunity to lead long and healthy lives, not simply a wealthy few. And it cannot be left to the free market. There is quite obviously nothing free about it. So yes, agreed, governments ought to realize the economic benefits reaped from long living and therefore informed and educated populations, everywhere. And that possibly is my last word on this topic here.

[Gern]

It must then be asked how then will it ever be possible for the Imminst Mission to be fulfilled?

There's plenty of money to be made in life extension. You just have to bypass (supplements) or work around (test the drugs for some other illness) the FDA.

If you had a drug that significantly extended human life, you could sell it anywhere and people would come from all over for it.

Its a pleasant thought. But back to reality.

Look at what the Big Pharma through the FDA have been doing to supplement industry, and to ensuring look established supplements and the knowledge of how to use them are kept from the public, just in the couple of years or so. Just to take one example look at Okinawa to see the benefit that a diet high in iodine has against the kind of breast and prostrate cancer rates we have in many parts of the West. Compare the iodine intake of the average Okinawan with the recommended FDA daily allowance/ WHO recommendation.

Looking locally, in Austalia the recommendation for daily iodine consumption is 150 micrograms for men, 120 micrograms for women. In Japan the figure I find for average daily iodine in diet is 12 mg/day. In the US average daily allowance is 240 micrograms. Japanese consume about 50 times more iodine than Americans. Compare the average expected lifespan of the people in those two countries. Iodine in the diet has been cited in several studies as a contributing factor in Japanese low incidence of those cancers, and longer lifespan.

Your grandma used to be able to walk down to the corner store and buy iodine for the medicine cabinet, not for drinking perhaps but as a general household medicine. Ever seen it on the shelves in your town in your lifetime?

That's the FDA for you. No, actually, that's corporations running your government for you.

Seems to me the case for corporations making more money from mortality will find a lot more convincing supporting evidence than will the case for corporations making money from prolonging life.

Of course when they do find the answer to immortality in a pill, it will come with a healthy price tag. I just can't see it being one you or I could afford. Human health / long life for everyone and the profit motive just don't seem to be in harmony do they?

I'm not denying that corporations are not greedy (greed and corruption tend to increase with the size of an organization). But if you are going to suggest that big corporations have forced drug stores to stop selling iodine (rather than people simply choosing not to buy it or a cheaper alternative becoming available), you're going to need to supply some proof. According to Wikipedia, it was banned due to it's connection in making methamphetamine:


Clandestine synthetic chemical use
In the United States, the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) regards iodine and compounds containing iodine (ionic iodides, iodoform, ethyl iodide, and so on) as reagents useful for the clandestine manufacture of methamphetamine.^[28]




So provide some proof that shows corporations somehow convinced the government to ban iodine in the name of drug enforcement...

Longevity treatments probably will be expensive when they come out...someone has to pay for all the research costs. However, Aubrey has explained more than once that when treatments are robust (I'm fine with letting the rich test them for me to ensure they are safe), all governments that wish to be economically competitive will have an incentive to provide them. Just as all governments have an incentive to provide free public education. If you can have people work for 500 years vs. 40, think of the economic consequences. No country would be able to compete economically with one whose citizens are living 10x longer. If you really believe: "
Of course when they do find the answer to immortality in a pill, it will come with a healthy price tag. I just can't see it being one you or I could afford." then why waste your time here? Trying to spread pessimism about indefinite lifespan?

Go into a drugstore and you will find the base chemicals for the production of a whole lot of illicit drugs. Most of these have restrictions place on them. But they are available to buy without prescription often enough. However, you will not be able to buy iodine. Above I am principally talking about consuming iodine, and that is either naturally in the diet or through supplementation, say in the form of Lugols solution. You can buy iodine supplements from reputable outfits like NOW food. But the point I am making is not only is iodine no longer readily available to the general public where it used to be in the medicine cabinet of every home, but it is the subject of a propaganda campaign aiming to scare people away from using it either to topically self medicate or as a supplement.

It is perhaps ironical you should mention methamphetamine manufacture as the reason for iodine no longer being readily available. That drug was discovered in Japan, the very country where its hard to find any Japanese that suffers from iodine deficiency. Where there is no propaganda campaign against iodine. Where doctors understand how iodine is necessary in far larger quantities than the FDA stipulates. And like I said where people live on average way longer than Americans, or Australians, and suffer far far lower risk of prostrate or breast cancer.

The whole idea we need to worry about too many mouths to feed is a poisonous lie by the way. There is more than enough money in this world to hugely benefit everybody. More than enough technology to instantly benefit the whole of mankind, but it wouldn't be profitable would it?

Its a side thought to the point you raise but worth a mention, Haiti has been left to die in disease and devastation. The best the West could do following the earthquake was to send in the military to protect some valuable assets. Then once order was regained they left. Barely a cent of the money promised by the West has been delivered to Haiti. Less than 20% of the rubble has been cleared away. And right now hundreds of those living in the tent city are dying of cholera, a disease the world had virtually wiped out a long long time ago.

Why waste my time here you ask? Because I think every human being has the right to a 500 year healthy lifespan, and really people like you and me are nothing special.

Misread the post. Maybe the flag is for that reason?

But to reply to what you have actually posted.

I think the need to profit has already turned to greed on a large scale and it seems to have led us to a major financial precipice. And still I don't see governments anywhere throwing up their hands and saying 'To hell with it, lets make education AND healthcare free'. If those that govern us really thought workers living for 500 years was a good idea we would have free health care for goodness sake. Basically yes, I do believe that corporations run governments. Not the people. So based on what is actually taking place I just can't agree with you.

People everywhere deserve the opportunity to lead long and healthy lives, not simply a wealthy few. And it cannot be left to the free market. There is quite obviously nothing free about it. So yes, agreed, governments ought to realize the economic benefits reaped from long living and therefore informed and educated populations, everywhere. And that possibly is my last word on this topic here.

The advantage of the profit motive, when it works the way it should, is it generally enslaves the rich and powerful to serve the public good, by making them produce things people want, need and desire. The power of free markets is the power of freedom, and the ability to make your own choices through your purchasing power. In a market uncorrupted by government and big corporation influence, the amount of money to be made on extending life must be truly staggering. Only political power and corruption stand a chance of stopping science from eventually producing results.

The problem with free health care is that health care will never be free. People in the health care industry must live and therefore have to be paid. The question do dump our collective money in one pot and put a corruptible political power and the whims of the majority in the middle of dolling out that money. Do we put government between individuals and the health care they choose, or do we leave it up to individuals to decide how best to take care of themselves. Once health care is provided by government it becomes a political issue, and governments, not people, will decide who gets what. The economic reality will force governments to control what people get, and as a result you can pretty much kiss your choices and immortalist ideals goodbye, it won't be a priority for government to spend your money on it. I'd much prefer a free society where I can influence the market and if I so choose encourage the market for products that extend life.

We agree one one thing: there's nothing free about free markets, but that is because we stopped having markets free from government influence a long time back. And, look what it got us, government encouraging mortgages that shouldn't have been made, sold to wall street where they didn't belong, leading to a financial collapse due to a failure to regulate. And, at every step the government was involved in making it happen. Then politicians stand back and blame everyone but themselves and gullible people believe them and think the problem was government wasn't powerful enough. Government is the problem and giving them more power won't make things better, it will only leave you powerless to influence your own life, unless you happen to be one of the rich and powerful.

[Lassus]

It must then be asked how then will it ever be possible for the Imminst Mission to be fulfilled?

There's plenty of money to be made in life extension. You just have to bypass (supplements) or work around (test the drugs for some other illness) the FDA.

If you had a drug that significantly extended human life, you could sell it anywhere and people would come from all over for it.

Its a pleasant thought. But back to reality.

Look at what the Big Pharma through the FDA have been doing to supplement industry, and to ensuring look established supplements and the knowledge of how to use them are kept from the public, just in the couple of years or so. Just to take one example look at Okinawa to see the benefit that a diet high in iodine has against the kind of breast and prostrate cancer rates we have in many parts of the West. Compare the iodine intake of the average Okinawan with the recommended FDA daily allowance/ WHO recommendation.

Looking locally, in Austalia the recommendation for daily iodine consumption is 150 micrograms for men, 120 micrograms for women. In Japan the figure I find for average daily iodine in diet is 12 mg/day. In the US average daily allowance is 240 micrograms. Japanese consume about 50 times more iodine than Americans. Compare the average expected lifespan of the people in those two countries. Iodine in the diet has been cited in several studies as a contributing factor in Japanese low incidence of those cancers, and longer lifespan.

Your grandma used to be able to walk down to the corner store and buy iodine for the medicine cabinet, not for drinking perhaps but as a general household medicine. Ever seen it on the shelves in your town in your lifetime?

That's the FDA for you. No, actually, that's corporations running your government for you.

Seems to me the case for corporations making more money from mortality will find a lot more convincing supporting evidence than will the case for corporations making money from prolonging life.

Of course when they do find the answer to immortality in a pill, it will come with a healthy price tag. I just can't see it being one you or I could afford. Human health / long life for everyone and the profit motive just don't seem to be in harmony do they?

I'm not denying that corporations are not greedy (greed and corruption tend to increase with the size of an organization). But if you are going to suggest that big corporations have forced drug stores to stop selling iodine (rather than people simply choosing not to buy it or a cheaper alternative becoming available), you're going to need to supply some proof. According to Wikipedia, it was banned due to it's connection in making methamphetamine:


Clandestine synthetic chemical use
In the United States, the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) regards iodine and compounds containing iodine (ionic iodides, iodoform, ethyl iodide, and so on) as reagents useful for the clandestine manufacture of methamphetamine.^[28]




So provide some proof that shows corporations somehow convinced the government to ban iodine in the name of drug enforcement...

Longevity treatments probably will be expensive when they come out...someone has to pay for all the research costs. However, Aubrey has explained more than once that when treatments are robust (I'm fine with letting the rich test them for me to ensure they are safe), all governments that wish to be economically competitive will have an incentive to provide them. Just as all governments have an incentive to provide free public education. If you can have people work for 500 years vs. 40, think of the economic consequences. No country would be able to compete economically with one whose citizens are living 10x longer. If you really believe: "
Of course when they do find the answer to immortality in a pill, it will come with a healthy price tag. I just can't see it being one you or I could afford." then why waste your time here? Trying to spread pessimism about indefinite lifespan?

Go into a drugstore and you will find the base chemicals for the production of a whole lot of illicit drugs. Most of these have restrictions place on them. But they are available to buy without prescription often enough. However, you will not be able to buy iodine. Above I am principally talking about consuming iodine, and that is either naturally in the diet or through supplementation, say in the form of Lugols solution. You can buy iodine supplements from reputable outfits like NOW food. But the point I am making is not only is iodine no longer readily available to the general public where it used to be in the medicine cabinet of every home, but it is the subject of a propaganda campaign aiming to scare people away from using it either to topically self medicate or as a supplement.

It is perhaps ironical you should mention methamphetamine manufacture as the reason for iodine no longer being readily available. That drug was discovered in Japan, the very country where its hard to find any Japanese that suffers from iodine deficiency. Where there is no propaganda campaign against iodine. Where doctors understand how iodine is necessary in far larger quantities than the FDA stipulates. And like I said where people live on average way longer than Americans, or Australians, and suffer far far lower risk of prostrate or breast cancer.

The whole idea we need to worry about too many mouths to feed is a poisonous lie by the way. There is more than enough money in this world to hugely benefit everybody. More than enough technology to instantly benefit the whole of mankind, but it wouldn't be profitable would it?

Its a side thought to the point you raise but worth a mention, Haiti has been left to die in disease and devastation. The best the West could do following the earthquake was to send in the military to protect some valuable assets. Then once order was regained they left. Barely a cent of the money promised by the West has been delivered to Haiti. Less than 20% of the rubble has been cleared away. And right now hundreds of those living in the tent city are dying of cholera, a disease the world had virtually wiped out a long long time ago.

Why waste my time here you ask? Because I think every human being has the right to a 500 year healthy lifespan, and really people like you and me are nothing special.

Misread the post. Maybe the flag is for that reason?

But to reply to what you have actually posted.

I think the need to profit has already turned to greed on a large scale and it seems to have led us to a major financial precipice. And still I don't see governments anywhere throwing up their hands and saying 'To hell with it, lets make education AND healthcare free'. If those that govern us really thought workers living for 500 years was a good idea we would have free health care for goodness sake. Basically yes, I do believe that corporations run governments. Not the people. So based on what is actually taking place I just can't agree with you.

People everywhere deserve the opportunity to lead long and healthy lives, not simply a wealthy few. And it cannot be left to the free market. There is quite obviously nothing free about it. So yes, agreed, governments ought to realize the economic benefits reaped from long living and therefore informed and educated populations, everywhere. And that possibly is my last word on this topic here.

The first startup to commercialize life extension therapies becomes insanely obscenely rich. Period.
Hell, there arent even effective therapies yet, and already theres an entire industry based around it.

You just dont get it, do you? Capitalism will eat itself. Theres no loyalty to the system; no conspiracy. Its just business as usual. All that matters is the bottom line, the profit margin.

If life extension therapies (or age reversal ones) become feasible, someone somewhere will try to sell it (keep in mind the world is much bigger than the US). Besides, in all seriousness, its research thats risky, expensive, and time consuming. Implementation, not so much.

Also, i dont think this would be the kind of thing a government would want to drive underground or overseas with regulations.
Can you imagine a nation of perpetually young, healthy, highly educated people competing against a nation of senior citizens?

Edited by Lassus, 16 November 2010 - 02:12 AM.

[niner]

Go into a drugstore and you will find the base chemicals for the production of a whole lot of illicit drugs. Most of these have restrictions place on them. But they are available to buy without prescription often enough.

Can you provide some examples of these? Any compounds that are critical to a drug synthesis will have been removed. There might be a few solvents still available because they could be easily substituted with something else anyway.

[Logan]

Go into a drugstore and you will find the base chemicals for the production of a whole lot of illicit drugs. Most of these have restrictions place on them. But they are available to buy without prescription often enough.

Can you provide some examples of these? Any compounds that are critical to a drug synthesis will have been removed. There might be a few solvents still available because they could be easily substituted with something else anyway.

What about pseudoephedrine to make crystal meth? It's still available otc.

[niner]

Go into a drugstore and you will find the base chemicals for the production of a whole lot of illicit drugs. Most of these have restrictions place on them. But they are available to buy without prescription often enough.

Can you provide some examples of these? Any compounds that are critical to a drug synthesis will have been removed. There might be a few solvents still available because they could be easily substituted with something else anyway.

What about pseudoephedrine to make crystal meth? It's still available otc.

Only sort of. It's pretty intensely regulated at the national level and also by 41 states.

[Gern]

"These are just the type of basic discoveries that if funded on a larger scale, could help us ward off the enormous wave of health care expenditures coming our way as a result of the aging baby boom population."

Now that's interesting. It's an obvious indication that it may be available for use fairly soon.

I dont want to go in to conspiracy to much, but if the companies did not have drugs to market to people then they wouldnt make money. So why would they want to find a cure all or the like, theres no benefit to them...unless they charge you the amount of medications that you would have bought from them in your whole lifetime for the discovery.

You misunderstand free enterprise. If large drug companies don't bring this kind of drug to market, eventually their competition, or some a number of small start-ups will. The benefit to the large companies is survival, in a market where competitors will see you're failure to serve the market as an opening for them to make boat loads of money. Consumers have immense power, that is the forgotten dimension of capitalism.

Drug companies can patent discoveries, but that does not keep them off the market. The basis of patent is the concept of making inventions public, so that other companies can use them provided they pay a fair royalty. They can try to keep inventions secret, but science marches on and other companies will very quickly make the same discoveries. Companies can try to buy smaller companies that might compete, but that's a loosing game because for every one you buy a dozen others will pop-up seeing the opening in the market. I know things do not always work this way, but that is typically the result of government organizations, such as the FDA, so severely regulating the industry that the barrier to entry becomes prohibitive.

Have faith. In a free country you cannot stop the march of science or prevent cures from making to where they are needed for long.